Guest guest Posted January 14, 2005 Report Share Posted January 14, 2005 Hi sharron: I just referred a patient to PT care for 6 weeks. Her auto injury was almost one year ago. Interestingly, the insurance co. will not pay for any further chiropractic care. I have had neuro consult to get clearance for chiro and PT care concomitantly: PT care supervised exercises, DC care for adjustment and correction of persistent lumbar hyperlordosis (postural swayback). Guess what? The MD OK’d the PT, but not the DC care. The irony? The PT would not continue care until I signed off on the treatment plan with the TAOS attached. Treatment plan was not what I had initially ordered at all, but the typical boilerplate treatment plan to include whatever the PT wanted to do from manual cranial manipulation to visceral re-alignment. Of course, I like the poor patient and so I signed off. Now I will have to re-evaluate and probably will not get paid for that “unauthorized” service, but I might get paid if I rebill about 1 year. Anyway, the PT’s paperwork was about ¾ of a page long. Care will be billed at about $130 per visit, which will be performed primarily by PTA, with the PT stepping in for the specialized re-alignment and assessment. This is routine by the way. If you are not experiencing this in your office you are simply living in a dream world. Now, the OBCE has basically never attended to this disparity. I am not looking for aggressive measures against the PT’s. I would oppose this idea generally. But gee, couldn’t we make the DC’s practice a little more conducive to the competitive market? In my opinion, by continuously making the practice of the DC hinge upon the paperwork, we are driving up the cost of care, perhaps improving the quality of care, but definitely making our profession less competitive by implying that someone with an activator treating a client 60 times a year for 5 minutes each is an insult to the profession. Truth be told, PTs have been such an insult for the last 10 years, if such an insult should exist at all. My point is, sharron, that yes our profession has its share of problems, but to go out of our way to make DC’s better than any other provider in the market place without assessing the negative aspects of the financial impact is disappointing. The idea that all of the shakers and movers have presented has not been proven. It is a gamble at best. That idea: if the DC profession restricts itself by unilaterally implementing evidence based treatment standards, excessive fee regulations, excessive treatment guidelines, and a better record of eliminating the bad apples -- yeah by doing all of this voluntarily -- we will survive the obvious political storm that is coming against us from PIP carriers and legislative enemies. I for one am skeptical, unless we champion the same rules across the playing field for every provider. And you know what? That will NEVER happen. So, if our present law protects us from prosecution for fraud for excessive fees and excessive treatment, then I say glory halleluiah! Let’s leave that law alone and create some other instrument, such as OBCE approved IME exams that allow the carrier to get out of excessive treatment plans and allow the DC to never have to worry about a threat of losing their license for an infraction that has never touched, in the past 100 years, the licenses of even a handful of MD’s, PT’s, JD’s, CPA’s, RN’s and every other profession in this great state. AS a state Oregon gives our professionals a lifetime license in exchange for a lifetime commitment of training. Why would anyone be so determined to make the DC an exception whose license could hinge upon the perfection of their paperwork moreso than the quality of their care? If we must insist on proceeding with these new rules, at least reduce the penalty to a rehabilitative hand-slap, rather than full blown license-threatening fraud. Sorry for the length. I will avoid getting carried away with this as I have shown by restricting my comments for the past several months. Sincerely, Willard Bertrand, D.C. Re: Re: Coupons Willard, There you go again! Why do you insist on exaggerating EVERYTHING! The MD's used the same logic on us 10 years ago..that we had no scientific validation..etc. AND the OBCE is NOT making rules to require advanced validation of everything. Good god man get off it! Colwell.DC Re: Coupons > > > I have to play devil's advocate here. It seems strange to embrace > the great efforts of Vern who has implemented free chiro care at the > capitol, and at the same time thrash the use of coupons which > introduce chiro care to the public at a reduced fee... somewhat of a > conflict there? > I support anything that is done with professionalism and taste which > helps educate the public on the values of chiropractic care. I agree > with Carl that " we have to do what we can. " Most people have no > value for our services to begin with so using a coupon to get them > into the office so they can be educated properly on the value of our > care is a good thing. > Jamey Dyson, D.C. > > > > > > > > > > Docs: > > > > > > I agree with that the coupons diminish our credibility in > the > > > healthcare arena. However, they are effective to some degree > because I > > > have occasionally had patients go to another D.C. surreptitiously > to > > > obtain a free exam, Insight 7000 scan, etc., while under my care. > They > > > are usually grocery coupon-clippers as well and rarely follow > through > > > with the care indicated by the results of the " free " or > discounted > > > evaluation. > > > > > > In my opinion, coupons and discounts are feeble attempts to > compensate > > > for deficits in patient education. > > > > > > Lyndon McGill, D.C. > > > Salem, Oregon > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 19, 2005 Report Share Posted January 19, 2005 Docs: I agree with that the coupons diminish our credibility in the healthcare arena. However, they are effective to some degree because I have occasionally had patients go to another D.C. surreptitiously to obtain a free exam, Insight 7000 scan, etc., while under my care. They are usually grocery coupon-clippers as well and rarely follow through with the care indicated by the results of the " free " or discounted evaluation. In my opinion, coupons and discounts are feeble attempts to compensate for deficits in patient education. Lyndon McGill, D.C. Salem, Oregon Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 20, 2005 Report Share Posted January 20, 2005 Lyndon, This shows the value of this listserve. Too bad so many people quit from being offended. Look at the value! From my own desk, I take a risk, put myself out there regarding coupons and receive a proper thrashing from experienced professionals. I wish I had something like this when I was first in practice do ask about things like this. Back then, we could only go to OCPA meetings, attend seminars, or call our friends from school who knew as little as we did. I tried to find an associateship position for mentoring. I was offered $5 per hour to work for one chap. When I suggested that my training might merit a higher pay, he asked why I didn’t want to give back to my profession. Given the huge diversity in chiropractic, I am surprised at how often I have had patients go to another chiro and have my diagnosis confirmed. Conversely, it is always disheartening to hear that patients, not infrequently, are told to seek out a Palmer graduate as they are the only ones properly trained. I always tell them that my instruction at WSCC was delivered by Palmer graduates so I have been trained in the Palmer method. I then tell them that I have take a post-graduate course in the plantar method. HAHAHA Of course, once I get my hands on them they forget about their old corn fed Iowa trained fountainhead drenched chiropractor! (meaning no disrespect, of course.) ( E. Abrahamson, D.C.) Chiropractic physician Lake Oswego Chiropractic Clinic 315 Second Street Lake Oswego, OR 97034 503-635-6246 Website: http://www.lakeoswegochiro.com On 1/19/05 7:14 PM, " Lyndon McGill " <twogems@...> wrote: > > Docs: > > I agree with that the coupons diminish our credibility in the > healthcare arena. However, they are effective to some degree because I > have occasionally had patients go to another D.C. surreptitiously to > obtain a free exam, Insight 7000 scan, etc., while under my care. They > are usually grocery coupon-clippers as well and rarely follow through > with the care indicated by the results of the " free " or discounted > evaluation. > > In my opinion, coupons and discounts are feeble attempts to compensate > for deficits in patient education. > > Lyndon McGill, D.C. > Salem, Oregon > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 20, 2005 Report Share Posted January 20, 2005 I do agree with , but until our profession starts doing national marketing like the other healthcare professionals we have to do what we can. Good luck Carl Bonofiglio -- Re: RE: Coupons Lyndon,This shows the value of this listserve. Too bad so many people quit from being offended. Look at the value! From my own desk, I take a risk, put myself out there regarding coupons and receive a proper thrashing from experienced professionals. I wish I had something like this when I was first in practice do ask about things like this. Back then, we could only go to OCPA meetings, attend seminars, or call our friends from school who knew as little as we did.I tried to find an associateship position for mentoring. I was offered $5 per hour to work for one chap. When I suggested that my training might merit a higher pay, he asked why I didn’t want to give back to my profession.Given the huge diversity in chiropractic, I am surprised at how often I have had patients go to another chiro and have my diagnosis confirmed. Conversely, it is always disheartening to hear that patients, not infrequently, are told to seek out a Palmer graduate as they are the only ones properly trained. I always tell them that my instruction at WSCC was delivered by Palmer graduates so I have been trained in the Palmer method. I then tell them that I have take a post-graduate course in the plantar method. HAHAHAOf course, once I get my hands on them they forget about their old corn fed Iowa trained fountainhead drenched chiropractor! (meaning no disrespect, of course.)( E. Abrahamson, D.C.)Chiropractic physicianLake Oswego Chiropractic Clinic315 Second StreetLake Oswego, OR 97034503-635-6246Website: http://www.lakeoswegochiro.comOn 1/19/05 7:14 PM, "Lyndon McGill" <twogems@...> wrote:> > Docs:> > I agree with that the coupons diminish our credibility in the > healthcare arena. However, they are effective to some degree because I > have occasionally had patients go to another D.C. surreptitiously to > obtain a free exam, Insight 7000 scan, etc., while under my care. They > are usually grocery coupon-clippers as well and rarely follow through > with the care indicated by the results of the "free" or discounted > evaluation.> > In my opinion, coupons and discounts are feeble attempts to compensate > for deficits in patient education.> > Lyndon McGill, D.C.> Salem, Oregon> > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 21, 2005 Report Share Posted January 21, 2005 I have to play devil's advocate here. It seems strange to embrace the great efforts of Vern who has implemented free chiro care at the capitol, and at the same time thrash the use of coupons which introduce chiro care to the public at a reduced fee... somewhat of a conflict there? I support anything that is done with professionalism and taste which helps educate the public on the values of chiropractic care. I agree with Carl that " we have to do what we can. " Most people have no value for our services to begin with so using a coupon to get them into the office so they can be educated properly on the value of our care is a good thing. Jamey Dyson, D.C. > > > > > Docs: > > > > I agree with that the coupons diminish our credibility in the > > healthcare arena. However, they are effective to some degree because I > > have occasionally had patients go to another D.C. surreptitiously to > > obtain a free exam, Insight 7000 scan, etc., while under my care. They > > are usually grocery coupon-clippers as well and rarely follow through > > with the care indicated by the results of the " free " or discounted > > evaluation. > > > > In my opinion, coupons and discounts are feeble attempts to compensate > > for deficits in patient education. > > > > Lyndon McGill, D.C. > > Salem, Oregon > > > > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 21, 2005 Report Share Posted January 21, 2005 Hey Willard, I just had a patient with shoulder rehab that was $375 a visit at the PT in Lake Oswego. He was also paying cash. He went several times and then had to quit due to finances. Thinks I am a great "deal" now. Don White, RN, DC Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 21, 2005 Report Share Posted January 21, 2005 Jamey: Hi and thanks for posting. Bear with me for a moment here. The Chiropractic profession, for so long has suffered from a poverty consciuosness. By that I mean we do not believe that we a worth much. On the whole DC's give away many services and want to be the " good guy " who(m) takes care of his/her patient's, filling the role of the ol country Doc that took chicken's, veggies or other such products in trade for services. Due to our own belief system's we de-value the enormous power of subluxation removal and health improvement... not because patient's aren't willing to pay for our services but because of OUR own misgiving's. I know that there are DC's reading this who are thinking sure but you do not get that in MY city there are..... fill in the blank here with, locked out HMO's, decreased job's, bad staff etc etc etc. I would argue back that in every case there is a Dco out there in the same city or type of city that is doing well regardless of circumstances. So the question in my mind is why? Why does one DC in similar or same area/city have a booming practice when another does'nt. Magic? Lucky? Better adjuster? What? I would argue that the more successful DC has a better belief system in what he/she does. That the DC is willing to say to a patient that " Mr/Mrs patient this is what you have and this is what it will take to get you better and this is what it will cost. Do you, as the Doc, believe and know that the patient has a problem that you can help? If so then look into that patient's eyes and tell them so. Tell them that they need x amount of care, outline your plan and demand the amount of renumeration that you are worth. Well gee, they may walk.... I would argue good. If the patient does not care enough about their own health..... why would you want them in your office? So that you can be wrong in their minds when after 2-3 adjustments they are not magically healed? Try firing those patient's that suck all your energy, demanding extra service at no charge cause they really can't afford it... while driving a newer car than you and taking vacations when you are at home. Demand what you are worth and the universe will respond likewise. If yo are willing to get rid of these energy vampires the universe will replace them with patient's that want and need your service. Get back to your philisophical basis and review what those quasi, religious nuts, that were your forefathers and listen to what they had to say. Read books like Ponders " Dynamic Laws of Prosperity " . Raise your standards. Get yourself out of poverty mentality, affirm your convictions, quit trying to chase those " bad backs " , realize that you need time, and co-operation. Get invigorated by the coolest profession in the world and start healing sick people. You will become more attractive and as a result the patient's will come to you. I would argue to all of you, that those Doc's that are willing to present a clean professional office, dress professionally, are enthusiastic about what they do, know that they are worth every penny they charge, demand that the patient follows the treatment plan, holding the patient accountable for their bill will ultimately be successful. They have become successful because they have practiced BEING successful. I would argue that it has absolutely nothing to do with coupons. I will gladly discuss these issues with any DC out there who is struggling and who is willing to change their office. Regards Dr B Re: Coupons > > > I have to play devil's advocate here. It seems strange to embrace > the great efforts of Vern who has implemented free chiro care at the > capitol, and at the same time thrash the use of coupons which > introduce chiro care to the public at a reduced fee... somewhat of a > conflict there? > I support anything that is done with professionalism and taste which > helps educate the public on the values of chiropractic care. I agree > with Carl that " we have to do what we can. " Most people have no > value for our services to begin with so using a coupon to get them > into the office so they can be educated properly on the value of our > care is a good thing. > Jamey Dyson, D.C. > > > > > > > > > > Docs: > > > > > > I agree with that the coupons diminish our credibility in > the > > > healthcare arena. However, they are effective to some degree > because I > > > have occasionally had patients go to another D.C. surreptitiously > to > > > obtain a free exam, Insight 7000 scan, etc., while under my care. > They > > > are usually grocery coupon-clippers as well and rarely follow > through > > > with the care indicated by the results of the " free " or > discounted > > > evaluation. > > > > > > In my opinion, coupons and discounts are feeble attempts to > compensate > > > for deficits in patient education. > > > > > > Lyndon McGill, D.C. > > > Salem, Oregon > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 21, 2005 Report Share Posted January 21, 2005 Could it be due to the same mentality the has created the excessive fee administrative rules? Really, PT’s are charging in excess of $100 per visit routinely, but chiropractors are attempting to install excessive fee schedules. Something is wrong in this picture. On one hand we have PT’s treating a frozen shoulder at over $100 a pop for 4 months 2 times per week with no scientific validation of the validity or effectiveness of the treatment, and on the other we have OBCE working to make chiropractors “perfect” in an attempt to shorten treatment based upon the unsubstantiated notion that chiropractic care should only be used when it is absolutely certain that a positive outcome has been proven in the literature. Irony? Willard Bertrand, D.C. Re: Re: Coupons Jamey: Hi and thanks for posting. Bear with me for a moment here. The Chiropractic profession, for so long has suffered from a poverty consciuosness. By that I mean we do not believe that we a worth much. On the whole DC's give away many services and want to be the " good guy " who(m) takes care of his/her patient's, filling the role of the ol country Doc that took chicken's, veggies or other such products in trade for services. Due to our own belief system's we de-value the enormous power of subluxation removal and health improvement... not because patient's aren't willing to pay for our services but because of OUR own misgiving's. I know that there are DC's reading this who are thinking sure but you do not get that in MY city there are..... fill in the blank here with, locked out HMO's, decreased job's, bad staff etc etc etc. I would argue back that in every case there is a Dco out there in the same city or type of city that is doing well regardless of circumstances. So the question in my mind is why? Why does one DC in similar or same area/city have a booming practice when another does'nt. Magic? Lucky? Better adjuster? What? I would argue that the more successful DC has a better belief system in what he/she does. That the DC is willing to say to a patient that " Mr/Mrs patient this is what you have and this is what it will take to get you better and this is what it will cost. Do you, as the Doc, believe and know that the patient has a problem that you can help? If so then look into that patient's eyes and tell them so. Tell them that they need x amount of care, outline your plan and demand the amount of renumeration that you are worth. Well gee, they may walk.... I would argue good. If the patient does not care enough about their own health..... why would you want them in your office? So that you can be wrong in their minds when after 2-3 adjustments they are not magically healed? Try firing those patient's that suck all your energy, demanding extra service at no charge cause they really can't afford it... while driving a newer car than you and taking vacations when you are at home. Demand what you are worth and the universe will respond likewise. If yo are willing to get rid of these energy vampires the universe will replace them with patient's that want and need your service. Get back to your philisophical basis and review what those quasi, religious nuts, that were your forefathers and listen to what they had to say. Read books like Ponders " Dynamic Laws of Prosperity " . Raise your standards. Get yourself out of poverty mentality, affirm your convictions, quit trying to chase those " bad backs " , realize that you need time, and co-operation. Get invigorated by the coolest profession in the world and start healing sick people. You will become more attractive and as a result the patient's will come to you. I would argue to all of you, that those Doc's that are willing to present a clean professional office, dress professionally, are enthusiastic about what they do, know that they are worth every penny they charge, demand that the patient follows the treatment plan, holding the patient accountable for their bill will ultimately be successful. They have become successful because they have practiced BEING successful. I would argue that it has absolutely nothing to do with coupons. I will gladly discuss these issues with any DC out there who is struggling and who is willing to change their office. Regards Dr B Re: Coupons > > > I have to play devil's advocate here. It seems strange to embrace > the great efforts of Vern who has implemented free chiro care at the > capitol, and at the same time thrash the use of coupons which > introduce chiro care to the public at a reduced fee... somewhat of a > conflict there? > I support anything that is done with professionalism and taste which > helps educate the public on the values of chiropractic care. I agree > with Carl that " we have to do what we can. " Most people have no > value for our services to begin with so using a coupon to get them > into the office so they can be educated properly on the value of our > care is a good thing. > Jamey Dyson, D.C. > > > > > > > > > > Docs: > > > > > > I agree with that the coupons diminish our credibility in > the > > > healthcare arena. However, they are effective to some degree > because I > > > have occasionally had patients go to another D.C. surreptitiously > to > > > obtain a free exam, Insight 7000 scan, etc., while under my care. > They > > > are usually grocery coupon-clippers as well and rarely follow > through > > > with the care indicated by the results of the " free " or > discounted > > > evaluation. > > > > > > In my opinion, coupons and discounts are feeble attempts to > compensate > > > for deficits in patient education. > > > > > > Lyndon McGill, D.C. > > > Salem, Oregon > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 21, 2005 Report Share Posted January 21, 2005 Amen. Lyndon McGill, D.C. Salem, Oregon D Beebe, D.C. wrote: Jamey: Hi and thanks for posting. Bear with me for a moment here. The Chiropractic profession, for so long has suffered from a poverty consciuosness. By that I mean we do not believe that we a worth much. On the whole DC's give away many services and want to be the "good guy" who(m) takes care of his/her patient's, filling the role of the ol country Doc that took chicken's, veggies or other such products in trade for services. Due to our own belief system's we de-value the enormous power of subluxation removal and health improvement... not because patient's aren't willing to pay for our services but because of OUR own misgiving's. I know that there are DC's reading this who are thinking sure but you do not get that in MY city there are..... fill in the blank here with, locked out HMO's, decreased job's, bad staff etc etc etc. I would argue back that in every case there is a Dco out there in the same city or type of city that is doing well regardless of circumstances. So the question in my mind is why? Why does one DC in similar or same area/city have a booming practice when another does'nt. Magic? Lucky? Better adjuster? What? I would argue that the more successful DC has a better belief system in what he/she does. That the DC is willing to say to a patient that "Mr/Mrs patient this is what you have and this is what it will take to get you better and this is what it will cost. Do you, as the Doc, believe and know that the patient has a problem that you can help? If so then look into that patient's eyes and tell them so. Tell them that they need x amount of care, outline your plan and demand the amount of renumeration that you are worth. Well gee, they may walk.... I would argue good. If the patient does not care enough about their own health..... why would you want them in your office? So that you can be wrong in their minds when after 2-3 adjustments they are not magically healed? Try firing those patient's that suck all your energy, demanding extra service at no charge cause they really can't afford it... while driving a newer car than you and taking vacations when you are at home. Demand what you are worth and the universe will respond likewise. If yo are willing to get rid of these energy vampires the universe will replace them with patient's that want and need your service. Get back to your philisophical basis and review what those quasi, religious nuts, that were your forefathers and listen to what they had to say. Read books like Ponders " Dynamic Laws of Prosperity". Raise your standards. Get yourself out of poverty mentality, affirm your convictions, quit trying to chase those "bad backs", realize that you need time, and co-operation. Get invigorated by the coolest profession in the world and start healing sick people. You will become more attractive and as a result the patient's will come to you. I would argue to all of you, that those Doc's that are willing to present a clean professional office, dress professionally, are enthusiastic about what they do, know that they are worth every penny they charge, demand that the patient follows the treatment plan, holding the patient accountable for their bill will ultimately be successful. They have become successful because they have practiced BEING successful. I would argue that it has absolutely nothing to do with coupons. I will gladly discuss these issues with any DC out there who is struggling and who is willing to change their office. Regards Dr B Re: Coupons I have to play devil's advocate here. It seems strange to embrace the great efforts of Vern who has implemented free chiro care at the capitol, and at the same time thrash the use of coupons which introduce chiro care to the public at a reduced fee... somewhat of a conflict there? I support anything that is done with professionalism and taste which helps educate the public on the values of chiropractic care. I agree with Carl that "we have to do what we can." Most people have no value for our services to begin with so using a coupon to get them into the office so they can be educated properly on the value of our care is a good thing. Jamey Dyson, D.C. Docs: I agree with that the coupons diminish our credibility in the healthcare arena. However, they are effective to some degree because I have occasionally had patients go to another D.C. surreptitiously to obtain a free exam, Insight 7000 scan, etc., while under my care. They are usually grocery coupon-clippers as well and rarely follow through with the care indicated by the results of the "free" or discounted evaluation. In my opinion, coupons and discounts are feeble attempts to compensate for deficits in patient education. Lyndon McGill, D.C. Salem, Oregon Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 21, 2005 Report Share Posted January 21, 2005 Untrue Willard. PT's now, in order to get paid many insurance plans - must - read : MUST - fill out the TAOS ( Therapeutic Associates Outcomes System) forms pre and post care to demonstrate outcomes. It isn't just Chiropractic that is under scrutiny. sharron fuchs dc Re: Re: Coupons Jamey:Hi and thanks for posting.Bear with me for a moment here. The Chiropractic profession, for so long hassuffered from a poverty consciuosness. By that I mean we do not believe thatwe a worth much. On the whole DC's give away many services and want to bethe "good guy" who(m) takes care of his/her patient's, filling the role ofthe ol country Doc that took chicken's, veggies or other such products intrade for services.Due to our own belief system's we de-value the enormous power of subluxationremoval and health improvement... not because patient's aren't willing topay for our services but because of OUR own misgiving's. I know that thereare DC's reading this who are thinking sure but you do not get that in MYcity there are..... fill in the blank here with, locked out HMO's, decreasedjob's, bad staff etc etc etc.I would argue back that in every case there is a Dco out there in the samecity or type of city that is doing well regardless of circumstances.So the question in my mind is why? Why does one DC in similar or samearea/city have a booming practice when another does'nt. Magic?Lucky? Better adjuster? What?I would argue that the more successful DC has a better belief system in whathe/she does. That the DC is willing to say to a patient that "Mr/Mrs patientthis is what you have and this is what it will take to get you better andthis is what it will cost.Do you, as the Doc, believe and know that the patient has a problem that youcan help? If so then look into that patient's eyes and tell them so. Tellthem that they need x amount of care, outline your plan and demand theamount of renumeration that you are worth.Well gee, they may walk.... I would argue good. If the patient does not careenough about their own health..... why would you want them in your office?So that you can be wrong in their minds when after 2-3 adjustments they arenot magically healed?Try firing those patient's that suck all your energy, demanding extraservice at no charge cause they really can't afford it... while driving anewer car than you and taking vacations when you are at home. Demand whatyou are worth and the universe will respond likewise. If yo are willing toget rid of these energy vampires the universe will replace them withpatient's that want and need your service.Get back to your philisophical basis and review what those quasi, religiousnuts, that were your forefathers and listen to what they had to say. Readbooks like Ponders " Dynamic Laws of Prosperity". Raise yourstandards.Get yourself out of poverty mentality, affirm your convictions, quit tryingto chase those "bad backs", realize that you need time, and co-operation.Get invigorated by the coolest profession in the world and start healingsick people. You will become more attractive and as a result the patient'swill come to you.I would argue to all of you, that those Doc's that are willing to present aclean professional office, dress professionally, are enthusiastic about whatthey do, know that they are worth every penny they charge, demand that thepatient follows the treatment plan, holding the patient accountable fortheir bill will ultimately be successful. They have become successfulbecause they have practiced BEING successful. I would argue that it hasabsolutely nothing to do with coupons.I will gladly discuss these issues with any DC out there who is strugglingand who is willing to change their office.RegardsDr B Re: Coupons>>> I have to play devil's advocate here. It seems strange to embrace> the great efforts of Vern who has implemented free chiro care at the> capitol, and at the same time thrash the use of coupons which> introduce chiro care to the public at a reduced fee... somewhat of a> conflict there?> I support anything that is done with professionalism and taste which> helps educate the public on the values of chiropractic care. I agree> with Carl that "we have to do what we can." Most people have no> value for our services to begin with so using a coupon to get them> into the office so they can be educated properly on the value of our> care is a good thing.> Jamey Dyson, D.C.>> > >> > >> > > Docs:> > >> > > I agree with that the coupons diminish our credibility in> the> > > healthcare arena. However, they are effective to some degree> because I> > > have occasionally had patients go to another D.C. surreptitiously> to> > > obtain a free exam, Insight 7000 scan, etc., while under my care.> They> > > are usually grocery coupon-clippers as well and rarely follow> through> > > with the care indicated by the results of the "free" or> discounted> > > evaluation.> > >> > > In my opinion, coupons and discounts are feeble attempts to> compensate> > > for deficits in patient education.> > >> > > Lyndon McGill, D.C.> > > Salem, Oregon> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 21, 2005 Report Share Posted January 21, 2005 Willard, There you go again! Why do you insist on exaggerating EVERYTHING! The MD's used the same logic on us 10 years ago..that we had no scientific validation..etc. AND the OBCE is NOT making rules to require advanced validation of everything. Good god man get off it! Colwell.DC Re: Coupons>>> I have to play devil's advocate here. It seems strange to embrace> the great efforts of Vern who has implemented free chiro care at the> capitol, and at the same time thrash the use of coupons which> introduce chiro care to the public at a reduced fee... somewhat of a> conflict there?> I support anything that is done with professionalism and taste which> helps educate the public on the values of chiropractic care. I agree> with Carl that "we have to do what we can." Most people have no> value for our services to begin with so using a coupon to get them> into the office so they can be educated properly on the value of our> care is a good thing.> Jamey Dyson, D.C.>> > >> > >> > > Docs:> > >> > > I agree with that the coupons diminish our credibility in> the> > > healthcare arena. However, they are effective to some degree> because I> > > have occasionally had patients go to another D.C. surreptitiously> to> > > obtain a free exam, Insight 7000 scan, etc., while under my care.> They> > > are usually grocery coupon-clippers as well and rarely follow> through> > > with the care indicated by the results of the "free" or> discounted> > > evaluation.> > >> > > In my opinion, coupons and discounts are feeble attempts to> compensate> > > for deficits in patient education.> > >> > > Lyndon McGill, D.C.> > > Salem, Oregon> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 21, 2005 Report Share Posted January 21, 2005 Dr. B: I agree with everything you wrote, absolutely 100%. But as long as 90% of the people out there do not use chiropractic care, I will use professional, ethical marketing techniques to bring those people to my office so that I can get the chance to " look them in the eye and tell them that they need x amount of care, outline my plan and demand the amount of renumeration that I am worth. " Sometimes, that involves the use of coupons. No matter how enthusiastic or philosophically sound you are as a chiropractor, you must be able to market your services effectively. From what I understand, my quasi-religious chiropractic forefather, BJ, was one of the best at marketing. Regards, Jamey Dyson, D.C. > > > > > > > > > > > Docs: > > > > > > > > I agree with that the coupons diminish our credibility in > > the > > > > healthcare arena. However, they are effective to some degree > > because I > > > > have occasionally had patients go to another D.C. surreptitiously > > to > > > > obtain a free exam, Insight 7000 scan, etc., while under my care. > > They > > > > are usually grocery coupon-clippers as well and rarely follow > > through > > > > with the care indicated by the results of the " free " or > > discounted > > > > evaluation. > > > > > > > > In my opinion, coupons and discounts are feeble attempts to > > compensate > > > > for deficits in patient education. > > > > > > > > Lyndon McGill, D.C. > > > > Salem, Oregon > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 21, 2005 Report Share Posted January 21, 2005 Regarding the pre- and post- care assessments: Garbage in = garbage out. In other words, these "assessments" do not appear to always be truthful; they are self-fulfilling. When patient is evaluated pre-treatment they are almost always really impaired and hurting and afterwards so much better... yet they see me and are not necessarily so much better. But to the insurer, the patients improve per the assessments, and if they truly aren't "fixed", but don't seek other care, who's to know. And if they do seek care, they didn't do their HEP or had an aggravation. Cynically yours, Seitz, DC Tuality Physicians 730-D SE Oak St Hillsboro, OR 97123 (503)640-3724 Re: Coupons>>> I have to play devil's advocate here. It seems strange to embrace> the great efforts of Vern who has implemented free chiro care at the> capitol, and at the same time thrash the use of coupons which> introduce chiro care to the public at a reduced fee... somewhat of a> conflict there?> I support anything that is done with professionalism and taste which> helps educate the public on the values of chiropractic care. I agree> with Carl that "we have to do what we can." Most people have no> value for our services to begin with so using a coupon to get them> into the office so they can be educated properly on the value of our> care is a good thing.> Jamey Dyson, D.C.>> > >> > >> > > Docs:> > >> > > I agree with that the coupons diminish our credibility in> the> > > healthcare arena. However, they are effective to some degree> because I> > > have occasionally had patients go to another D.C. surreptitiously> to> > > obtain a free exam, Insight 7000 scan, etc., while under my care.> They> > > are usually grocery coupon-clippers as well and rarely follow> through> > > with the care indicated by the results of the "free" or> discounted> > > evaluation.> > >> > > In my opinion, coupons and discounts are feeble attempts to> compensate> > > for deficits in patient education.> > >> > > Lyndon McGill, D.C.> > > Salem, Oregon> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 21, 2005 Report Share Posted January 21, 2005 The TAOS pre and post outcomes are patient driven, not provider driven. So to the patient do you say garbage in - garbage out ? I don't think so. sharron fuchs dc Re: Re: Coupons Regarding the pre- and post- care assessments: Garbage in = garbage out. In other words, these "assessments" do not appear to always be truthful; they are self-fulfilling. When patient is evaluated pre-treatment they are almost always really impaired and hurting and afterwards so much better... yet they see me and are not necessarily so much better. But to the insurer, the patients improve per the assessments, and if they truly aren't "fixed", but don't seek other care, who's to know. And if they do seek care, they didn't do their HEP or had an aggravation. Cynically yours, Seitz, DC Tuality Physicians 730-D SE Oak St Hillsboro, OR 97123 (503)640-3724 Re: Coupons>>> I have to play devil's advocate here. It seems strange to embrace> the great efforts of Vern who has implemented free chiro care at the> capitol, and at the same time thrash the use of coupons which> introduce chiro care to the public at a reduced fee... somewhat of a> conflict there?> I support anything that is done with professionalism and taste which> helps educate the public on the values of chiropractic care. I agree> with Carl that "we have to do what we can." Most people have no> value for our services to begin with so using a coupon to get them> into the office so they can be educated properly on the value of our> care is a good thing.> Jamey Dyson, D.C.>> > >> > >> > > Docs:> > >> > > I agree with that the coupons diminish our credibility in> the> > > healthcare arena. However, they are effective to some degree> because I> > > have occasionally had patients go to another D.C. surreptitiously> to> > > obtain a free exam, Insight 7000 scan, etc., while under my care.> They> > > are usually grocery coupon-clippers as well and rarely follow> through> > > with the care indicated by the results of the "free" or> discounted> > > evaluation.> > >> > > In my opinion, coupons and discounts are feeble attempts to> compensate> > > for deficits in patient education.> > >> > > Lyndon McGill, D.C.> > > Salem, Oregon> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 21, 2005 Report Share Posted January 21, 2005 Willard: I wasn't aware that the proposed administrative rule was "an attempt to shorten treatment," or to force adherence to a particular treatment regimen. I thought the proposed rule would, in effect, simply make the (political) statement that we chiropractic physicians hold ourselves accountable - something the majority of us already do - to a reasonable professional practice. As far as "reasonable" is concerned - I believe that the Croft Guidelines are more than reasonable. I have yet to exceed, or even reach its suggested treatment duration or treatment number while treating patients that fall into its Graded injury categories. For example, the Croft Guidelines suggest that a patient with a Grade II injury, (limitation of motion, no ligamentous injury, and no neurological findings), should be able to reach Maximum Medical Improvement within 33 visits during a 29 week period. My last Grade II was completed in 22 visits over a 26 week period, and that was a difficult case. In contrast, I have performed a few IME's where the Grade II injury was met with 35 activator treatments in 6 weeks with NO CHANGE in the patient's VAS from visit to visit (7 out of 10). -- Not so much excessive, as stupid. My recommendation: that the patient had reached MMI with regard to activator treatments, and that the patient should receive chiropractic ADJUSTMENTS for a period of time to restore joint and neurological integrity. By the way, after my report, the chiropractor did begin adjusting the patients and they reported immediate improvement. It is my understanding that under the current rules, a DC can plunk an injured patient with an activator till hell freezes over and there is nothing the Board can do about it. (Let's see what kind of response I get from that statement!) Personally, I bear no ill will for any DC, but it would appear that all it takes is one errant practitioner, and all chiropractors are charletons! Respectfully, Glenn Glenn F. Gumaer, B.S. , D.C. Chiropractic Physician Northside Chiropractic Clinic 1240 N. Riverside Avenue Medford, OR 97501 541-770-1330 www.seekhealth.com Re: Coupons>>> I have to play devil's advocate here. It seems strange to embrace> the great efforts of Vern who has implemented free chiro care at the> capitol, and at the same time thrash the use of coupons which> introduce chiro care to the public at a reduced fee... somewhat of a> conflict there?> I support anything that is done with professionalism and taste which> helps educate the public on the values of chiropractic care. I agree> with Carl that "we have to do what we can." Most people have no> value for our services to begin with so using a coupon to get them> into the office so they can be educated properly on the value of our> care is a good thing.> Jamey Dyson, D.C.>> > >> > >> > > Docs:> > >> > > I agree with that the coupons diminish our credibility in> the> > > healthcare arena. However, they are effective to some degree> because I> > > have occasionally had patients go to another D.C. surreptitiously> to> > > obtain a free exam, Insight 7000 scan, etc., while under my care.> They> > > are usually grocery coupon-clippers as well and rarely follow> through> > > with the care indicated by the results of the "free" or> discounted> > > evaluation.> > >> > > In my opinion, coupons and discounts are feeble attempts to> compensate> > > for deficits in patient education.> > >> > > Lyndon McGill, D.C.> > > Salem, Oregon> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 21, 2005 Report Share Posted January 21, 2005 Do you know what he got for that $? Terry L. Petty, D.C. Re: Re: Coupons Hey Willard, I just had a patient with shoulder rehab that was $375 a visit at the PT in Lake Oswego. He was also paying cash. He went several times and then had to quit due to finances. Thinks I am a great " deal " now. Don White, RN, DC Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 21, 2005 Report Share Posted January 21, 2005 Thanks Dr. : I appreciate your consistent advice that all is well. But this appreciation is tempered by my recollection that you have not in recent memory came out with one significant criticism of the changes proposed before the OBCE? I would say that I have applauded the OBCE from time to time, amidst my recommendations for avoiding change to the status quo. I do not consider the status quo, which was created by the OBCE volunteers over a period of 90 years, as something to be trifled with. To make sweeping change without thoroughly assessing the worst possible outcomes is foolhardy and shortsighted. The criticisms I offer may be pure fiction, but they are not mean-spirited, nor are they disrespectful. PIP coverage means very little to me compared to the value of wide scope practice and a comfort that the OBCE cannot be used against any chiropractor. There are overutilizers in every field. DC’s are not going to solve anything with insurers by changing to the new proposed rules. Which brings me to: Hi sharron: Chiropractors can justify care with the exact same TAOS reports, even use the therapist’s report and still not receive equal pay for services, particularly in the event that the PT care exceeds 3 months. This is true when the TAOS of a PT for spinal care shows some (significant) progress but not enough progress to establish completion of care. Ongoing PT care routinely allowed until progress ceases. Same situation for a DC? Unlikely, instead it would be time to refer to an MD, who would then send the patient in for PT care. Not fair, but, I believe, common. I see no relief from this in the current proposed rule changes. In fact, I believe a scenario where the new rules would actually make it even more difficult for a DC to complete care on a patient and thus force referrals for MD/PT care. Re: Re: Coupons Willard, There you go again! Why do you insist on exaggerating EVERYTHING! The MD's used the same logic on us 10 years ago..that we had no scientific validation..etc. AND the OBCE is NOT making rules to require advanced validation of everything. Good god man get off it! Colwell.DC Re: Coupons > > > I have to play devil's advocate here. It seems strange to embrace > the great efforts of Vern who has implemented free chiro care at the > capitol, and at the same time thrash the use of coupons which > introduce chiro care to the public at a reduced fee... somewhat of a > conflict there? > I support anything that is done with professionalism and taste which > helps educate the public on the values of chiropractic care. I agree > with Carl that " we have to do what we can. " Most people have no > value for our services to begin with so using a coupon to get them > into the office so they can be educated properly on the value of our > care is a good thing. > Jamey Dyson, D.C. > > > > > > > > > > Docs: > > > > > > I agree with that the coupons diminish our credibility in > the > > > healthcare arena. However, they are effective to some degree > because I > > > have occasionally had patients go to another D.C. surreptitiously > to > > > obtain a free exam, Insight 7000 scan, etc., while under my care. > They > > > are usually grocery coupon-clippers as well and rarely follow > through > > > with the care indicated by the results of the " free " or > discounted > > > evaluation. > > > > > > In my opinion, coupons and discounts are feeble attempts to > compensate > > > for deficits in patient education. > > > > > > Lyndon McGill, D.C. > > > Salem, Oregon > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 21, 2005 Report Share Posted January 21, 2005 There are problems with the outcome assessment measures, nothing is perfect. If the patient wants to get more care and or they want to embellish their condition, they may fill out the questionnaire in such a way that they drive the scores upward or as a result the scores stagnate. These situations pose other case management challenges but ultimately all of these challenges have to be addressed anyway to bring the trauma or injury case to closure so that wellness care can begin. Dang aren’t these patients a challenge and a lot of work. Larry Lubcke DC, DABCO Re: Re: Coupons Jamey: Hi and thanks for posting. Bear with me for a moment here. The Chiropractic profession, for so long has suffered from a poverty consciuosness. By that I mean we do not believe that we a worth much. On the whole DC's give away many services and want to be the " good guy " who(m) takes care of his/her patient's, filling the role of the ol country Doc that took chicken's, veggies or other such products in trade for services. Due to our own belief system's we de-value the enormous power of subluxation removal and health improvement... not because patient's aren't willing to pay for our services but because of OUR own misgiving's. I know that there are DC's reading this who are thinking sure but you do not get that in MY city there are..... fill in the blank here with, locked out HMO's, decreased job's, bad staff etc etc etc. I would argue back that in every case there is a Dco out there in the same city or type of city that is doing well regardless of circumstances. So the question in my mind is why? Why does one DC in similar or same area/city have a booming practice when another does'nt. Magic? Lucky? Better adjuster? What? I would argue that the more successful DC has a better belief system in what he/she does. That the DC is willing to say to a patient that " Mr/Mrs patient this is what you have and this is what it will take to get you better and this is what it will cost. Do you, as the Doc, believe and know that the patient has a problem that you can help? If so then look into that patient's eyes and tell them so. Tell them that they need x amount of care, outline your plan and demand the amount of renumeration that you are worth. Well gee, they may walk.... I would argue good. If the patient does not care enough about their own health..... why would you want them in your office? So that you can be wrong in their minds when after 2-3 adjustments they are not magically healed? Try firing those patient's that suck all your energy, demanding extra service at no charge cause they really can't afford it... while driving a newer car than you and taking vacations when you are at home. Demand what you are worth and the universe will respond likewise. If yo are willing to get rid of these energy vampires the universe will replace them with patient's that want and need your service. Get back to your philisophical basis and review what those quasi, religious nuts, that were your forefathers and listen to what they had to say. Read books like Ponders " Dynamic Laws of Prosperity " . Raise your standards. Get yourself out of poverty mentality, affirm your convictions, quit trying to chase those " bad backs " , realize that you need time, and co-operation. Get invigorated by the coolest profession in the world and start healing sick people. You will become more attractive and as a result the patient's will come to you. I would argue to all of you, that those Doc's that are willing to present a clean professional office, dress professionally, are enthusiastic about what they do, know that they are worth every penny they charge, demand that the patient follows the treatment plan, holding the patient accountable for their bill will ultimately be successful. They have become successful because they have practiced BEING successful. I would argue that it has absolutely nothing to do with coupons. I will gladly discuss these issues with any DC out there who is struggling and who is willing to change their office. Regards Dr B Re: Coupons > > > I have to play devil's advocate here. It seems strange to embrace > the great efforts of Vern who has implemented free chiro care at the > capitol, and at the same time thrash the use of coupons which > introduce chiro care to the public at a reduced fee... somewhat of a > conflict there? > I support anything that is done with professionalism and taste which > helps educate the public on the values of chiropractic care. I agree > with Carl that " we have to do what we can. " Most people have no > value for our services to begin with so using a coupon to get them > into the office so they can be educated properly on the value of our > care is a good thing. > Jamey Dyson, D.C. > > > > > > > > > > Docs: > > > > > > I agree with that the coupons diminish our credibility in > the > > > healthcare arena. However, they are effective to some degree > because I > > > have occasionally had patients go to another D.C. surreptitiously > to > > > obtain a free exam, Insight 7000 scan, etc., while under my care. > They > > > are usually grocery coupon-clippers as well and rarely follow > through > > > with the care indicated by the results of the " free " or > discounted > > > evaluation. > > > > > > In my opinion, coupons and discounts are feeble attempts to > compensate > > > for deficits in patient education. > > > > > > Lyndon McGill, D.C. > > > Salem, Oregon > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 22, 2005 Report Share Posted January 22, 2005 Ok, ok, ok...good points all. So, when are we going to propose language that requires THEM to refer to US!? (i.e., when are we going to propose language that requires medical doctors and physical therapists to refer to CHIROPRACTORS when THEIR patients reach maximum medical improvement under drugs, and P.T.!?). It seems like the shoe is ALWAYS on the other foot; DESPITE the numerous, published studies that chiropractic is more effective for neuromusculoskeletal--particularly for the spine--than both meds and PT. M. s, D.C. Re: Coupons>>> I have to play devil's advocate here. It seems strange to embrace> the great efforts of Vern who has implemented free chiro care at the> capitol, and at the same time thrash the use of coupons which> introduce chiro care to the public at a reduced fee... somewhat of a> conflict there?> I support anything that is done with professionalism and taste which> helps educate the public on the values of chiropractic care. I agree> with Carl that "we have to do what we can." Most people have no> value for our services to begin with so using a coupon to get them> into the office so they can be educated properly on the value of our> care is a good thing.> Jamey Dyson, D.C.>> > >> > >> > > Docs:> > >> > > I agree with that the coupons diminish our credibility in> the> > > healthcare arena. However, they are effective to some degree> because I> > > have occasionally had patients go to another D.C. surreptitiously> to> > > obtain a free exam, Insight 7000 scan, etc., while under my care.> They> > > are usually grocery coupon-clippers as well and rarely follow> through> > > with the care indicated by the results of the "free" or> discounted> > > evaluation.> > >> > > In my opinion, coupons and discounts are feeble attempts to> compensate> > > for deficits in patient education.> > >> > > Lyndon McGill, D.C.> > > Salem, Oregon> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 22, 2005 Report Share Posted January 22, 2005 ly, we should be the neuromusculoskeletal gatekeepers. Terry Petty, D.C. Re: Re: Coupons Ok, ok, ok...good points all. So, when are we going to propose language that requires THEM to refer to US!? (i.e., when are we going to propose language that requires medical doctors and physical therapists to refer to CHIROPRACTORS when THEIR patients reach maximum medical improvement under drugs, and P.T.!?). It seems like the shoe is ALWAYS on the other foot; DESPITE the numerous, published studies that chiropractic is more effective for neuromusculoskeletal--particularly for the spine--than both meds and PT. M. s, D.C. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 23, 2005 Report Share Posted January 23, 2005 Just to be fair, my reading of Willard's comments is that a PT's use of modalities for a frozen shoulder are without scientifically validated proof of efficacy or other validation for the protocol. The TAOS, while providing evidence of patient progress (of the lack thereof), cannot demonstrate that the treatment is effective, only that the patient has improved during the period of treatment for some reason. Thus, Sharron's comments that Willard's statement was not true was not true, making Willard's statement not not true. Please, don't thank me, I'm just here to provide clarity. Freeman Re: Re: Coupons Willard, There you go again! Why do you insist on exaggerating EVERYTHING! The MD's used the same logic on us 10 years ago..that we had no scientific validation..etc. AND the OBCE is NOT making rules to require advanced validation of everything. Good god man get off it! Colwell.DC Re: Coupons>>> I have to play devil's advocate here. It seems strange to embrace> the great efforts of Vern who has implemented free chiro care at the> capitol, and at the same time thrash the use of coupons which> introduce chiro care to the public at a reduced fee... somewhat of a> conflict there?> I support anything that is done with professionalism and taste which> helps educate the public on the values of chiropractic care. I agree> with Carl that "we have to do what we can." Most people have no> value for our services to begin with so using a coupon to get them> into the office so they can be educated properly on the value of our> care is a good thing.> Jamey Dyson, D.C.>> > >> > >> > > Docs:> > >> > > I agree with that the coupons diminish our credibility in> the> > > healthcare arena. However, they are effective to some degree> because I> > > have occasionally had patients go to another D.C. surreptitiously> to> > > obtain a free exam, Insight 7000 scan, etc., while under my care.> They> > > are usually grocery coupon-clippers as well and rarely follow> through> > > with the care indicated by the results of the "free" or> discounted> > > evaluation.> > >> > > In my opinion, coupons and discounts are feeble attempts to> compensate> > > for deficits in patient education.> > >> > > Lyndon McGill, D.C.> > > Salem, Oregon> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 24, 2005 Report Share Posted January 24, 2005 Good Stuff!! Joe Medlin DC PDX Re: Coupons I have to play devil's advocate here. It seems strange to embrace the great efforts of Vern who has implemented free chiro care at the capitol, and at the same time thrash the use of coupons which introduce chiro care to the public at a reduced fee... somewhat of a conflict there? I support anything that is done with professionalism and taste which helps educate the public on the values of chiropractic care. I agree with Carl that "we have to do what we can." Most people have no value for our services to begin with so using a coupon to get them into the office so they can be educated properly on the value of our care is a good thing. Jamey Dyson, D.C. Docs: I agree with that the coupons diminish our credibility in the healthcare arena. However, they are effective to some degree because I have occasionally had patients go to another D.C. surreptitiously to obtain a free exam, Insight 7000 scan, etc., while under my care. They are usually grocery coupon-clippers as well and rarely follow through with the care indicated by the results of the "free" or discounted evaluation. In my opinion, coupons and discounts are feeble attempts to compensate for deficits in patient education. Lyndon McGill, D.C. Salem, Oregon Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 24, 2005 Report Share Posted January 24, 2005 Spinal Gatekeepers for sure Joe Medlin DC PDX Re: Re: Coupons Ok, ok, ok...good points all. So, when are we going to propose language that requires THEM to refer to US!? (i.e., when are we going to propose language that requires medical doctors and physical therapists to refer to CHIROPRACTORS when THEIR patients reach maximum medical improvement under drugs, and P.T.!?). It seems like the shoe is ALWAYS on the other foot; DESPITE the numerous, published studies that chiropractic is more effective for neuromusculoskeletal--particularly for the spine--than both meds and PT. M. s, D.C. OregonDCs rules:1. Keep correspondence professional; the purpose of the listserve is to foster communication and collegiality. No personal attacks on listserve members will be tolerated.2. Always sign your e-mails with your first and last name.3. The listserve is not secure; your e-mail could end up anywhere. However, it is against the rules of the listserve to copy, print, forward, or otherwise distribute correspondence written by another member without his or her consent, unless all personal identifiers have been removed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 24, 2005 Report Share Posted January 24, 2005 And, that's why they pay us the BIG BUCKS!!! Joyce D. McClure DC PC Re: Coupons>>> I have to play devil's advocate here. It seems strange to embrace> the great efforts of Vern who has implemented free chiro care at the> capitol, and at the same time thrash the use of coupons which> introduce chiro care to the public at a reduced fee... somewhat of a> conflict there?> I support anything that is done with professionalism and taste which> helps educate the public on the values of chiropractic care. I agree> with Carl that "we have to do what we can." Most people have no> value for our services to begin with so using a coupon to get them> into the office so they can be educated properly on the value of our> care is a good thing.> Jamey Dyson, D.C.>> > >> > >> > > Docs:> > >> > > I agree with that the coupons diminish our credibility in> the> > > healthcare arena. However, they are effective to some degree> because I> > > have occasionally had patients go to another D.C. surreptitiously> to> > > obtain a free exam, Insight 7000 scan, etc., while under my care.> They> > > are usually grocery coupon-clippers as well and rarely follow> through> > > with the care indicated by the results of the "free" or> discounted> > > evaluation.> > >> > > In my opinion, coupons and discounts are feeble attempts to> compensate> > > for deficits in patient education.> > >> > > Lyndon McGill, D.C.> > > Salem, Oregon> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 25, 2005 Report Share Posted January 25, 2005 I agree with Dr. Petty that DCs should be the gatekeepers for spinal NMS conditions, except in the rare spinal/ neurologic emergencies. But how to get there ? sharron fuchs dc Re: Re: Coupons Ok, ok, ok...good points all. So, when are we going to propose language that requires THEM to refer to US!? (i.e., when are we going to propose language that requires medical doctors and physical therapists to refer to CHIROPRACTORS when THEIR patients reach maximum medical improvement under drugs, and P.T.!?). It seems like the shoe is ALWAYS on the other foot; DESPITE the numerous, published studies that chiropractic is more effective for neuromusculoskeletal--particularly for the spine--than both meds and PT. M. s, D.C. OregonDCs rules:1. Keep correspondence professional; the purpose of the listserve is to foster communication and collegiality. No personal attacks on listserve members will be tolerated.2. Always sign your e-mails with your first and last name.3. The listserve is not secure; your e-mail could end up anywhere. However, it is against the rules of the listserve to copy, print, forward, or otherwise distribute correspondence written by another member without his or her consent, unless all personal identifiers have been removed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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