Guest guest Posted July 25, 2004 Report Share Posted July 25, 2004 Thanks Carol... Now Skip, here is a project for you... compare this brand to your brand and tell the group the pros and cons or differences between the two.. You game for this? SuziCarol Minnick <carolminnick@...> wrote: Co Q 10 that I use - http://tinyurl.com/f1f7 -----Original Message-----From: Suzanne [mailto:suziesgoats@...] probably so. where do you get yours or what is brand name? SuziCarol Minnick <carolminnick@...> wrote: The one I use is way more expensive than this – but instead of the soybean oil in it, it is emulsified in organic flaxseed oil (good source of Omega3’s) and it’s also blended with a couple different nutritional algaes (also good as antioxidants). I wonder if that could be the difference in price. It’s probably more potent. I pay $33 for 60 caps. Carol -----Original Message-----From: Suzanne [mailto:suziesgoats@...] Here is what I get..... Suzi CoQ10, Coenzyme Q10Each capsule 60mg 60 Caps - $18.19 120 Caps - $34.96 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 25, 2004 Report Share Posted July 25, 2004 Already done. What I'm going to say is comparing the QGel product to the product at the tinyurl.com/f1f7 address (http://www.healthyfutures.net). The first thing that I do notice is that on the header line of the page at the HealthyFutures site says " Financial Well Being " and on the left it states " Opportunity " . That makes me immediately think of this is an MLM product. Not all of those are bad, but they are usually overpriced to pay the downlines and such. The QGel product is not sold by Swanson as a multilevel marketing product but as a supplement under their own brand name. ================================= Swanson Product shows these active ingredients in one softgel as one serving. The bottle is 60mg with 60 softgels (60 day supply- 39¢ per day) in a bottle for $23.09 - item #SWU099: Vit E (d-alpha tocopheryl acetate) 150 IU Q-Gel® CoQ10 60mg Other ingredients are: gelatin, glycerin, purified water, titanium dioxide, annato seed extract, proprietary Bio-Solv base (polysorbate 80, lecithin, sorbitol, triacetin, medium chain triglycerides). Suggested use one per day with water and food. It notes: " Each 60mg softgel of hydrosoluble Q-Gel® has the bioavailability of up to 180mg of conventional lipid-soluble CoQ10. " ----------------------------------------------------- The HealthyFutures product is for 2 softgels as one serving. The bottle is 60 softgels of the below ingredients at $33.90. This is a 30 day supply (2 gels per day - $1.13 per day). This product is called Super Q10. It shows: Calories: 10 Total Carbohydrate: 147mg Protein: 70mg Vit A (beta-carotene): 4080 IU Vitamin K: 7mcg A proprietary blend totalling 1 gram of Flaxseed Oil Blue-Green Algae (Aph.Flos-aquae): 170mg Coenzyme Q10: 60mg Essential Oils (Rosemary, Fennel, Ginger, Cinnamon) Betatene® Carotenoids (D.Salina) Other Ingredients: Beeswax (encapsulating aid), Gelatin (gelatin, glycerin, water, carob, titanium dioxide) ===================================== The first thing I notice is that the Super Q10 product is in a traditional softgel form and is using flaxseed oil as the carrier oil for the Q-10 so the body can absorb it. It's coupled in with blue-green algae and other ingredients. The form of blue-green algae used is Aphanizomenon flos-aquae which is a Spirulina microalgae. This form is apparently very nutritious and several places sell it in bulk powder form. I find no evidence beyond the possible benefits of Spirulina that any of the extra ingredients add to the ability of the body to absorb the CoQ10 in the softgel. Therefore I'm led to believe that it would be of no greater benefit in CoQ10 absorption by the body than any other ordinary softgel as all of the softgels have an oil in them to help the body absorb the CoQ10. This one is quite pricey though. I'll leave it to you to read my previous post and the materials about the Q-Gel® form of CoQ10 and it's purportedly greater absorption and availability by the body. I do notice they include the natural Vitamin E at 150 IU's. Nowhere do I find a link between the two except in heart health. If anyone is taking blood thinners (like coumadin) it would be wise to check with your doctor before taking this as Vitamin E is a mild anticoagulant and can affect your body response to your other meds. In my personal experience, I've tried 100mg traditional softgels, 100mg dry capsules and the 100mg Q-Gel® softgels. The Q-Gel® softgel was quite more impressive as I seemed to have boundless energy. For the differential in money (74¢ per day/$22.20 per 30 day month), I think you could add the 'missing' ingredients, if really desired, and actually save money. There ya have my thoughts and research on this one. I've never been sold on Spirulina and even less on the blue-green algae. Too many chances to get the wrong stuff from a supplier trying to save money. For my info source on the algae, see this site: http://www.hc-sc.gc.ca/hecs-sesc/water/factsheets/blue_green_algae.htm Skip On 25 Jul 2004 at 11:04, Suzanne wrote: > Thanks Carol... > Now Skip, here is a project for you... compare this brand to your brand and tell the group the > pros and cons or differences between the two.. You game for this? > Suzi > > Carol Minnick <carolminnick@...> wrote: > Co Q 10 that I use - http://tinyurl.com/f1f7 > > -----Original Message----- > From: Suzanne [mailto:suziesgoats@...] > probably so. where do you get yours or what is brand name? > Suzi > > Carol Minnick <carolminnick@...> wrote: > > The one I use is way more expensive than this but instead of the soybean oil in it, it is > emulsified in organic flaxseed oil (good source of Omega3s) and its also blended with a > couple different nutritional algaes (also good as antioxidants). I wonder if that could be > the difference in price. Its probably more potent. I pay $33 for 60 caps. > > Carol > -----Original Message----- > From: Suzanne [mailto:suziesgoats@...] Here is what I get..... > Suzi CoQ10, Coenzyme Q10 > Each capsule 60mg > 60 Caps - $18.19 > 120 Caps - $34.96 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 26, 2004 Report Share Posted July 26, 2004 Skip and all, I need to correct a couple things in your comparison of these two CoQ10 products. Aphanizomenon flos-aquae is not spirulina. They are two very different algaes. “AFA” is a lot more nutritious. There is a big difference in the wild blue green algae (aphanizomenon flos aquae) and the “man made” spirulina. Spirulina is grown in huge concrete vats in the western part of US, and it is “fed” whatever the chemists think it needs. Whereas the wild algae feeds on the concentration of the minerals that are naturally in the lake. Also the wild algae has bio-available vit. B12, whereas Spirulina has an analog of B12, which means your body cannot utilize it – and it *may* cause pernicious anemia in some people. Most Spirulina is processed using high heat to dry it which destroys micronutrients along with the enzymatic activity. The chlorophyll content of spirulina is 115 mg. (per 10 grams) and for the wild algae it is 300 mg. Essential fatty acids are in the wild algae – especially the omega 3’s that are so difficult to get from your daily diet. Spirulina does not have the fatty acids because it is a warm water algae. I have a lot more information on the differences – if anyone is interested in more information, you can email me privately. Polysorbate 80 is a undesirable preservative, one that I steer clear of if at all possible, and is included in the QGel. I never heard of triacetin, but a quick search for that says one of its uses is as a “gelatinizing agent in explosives” – interesting. It may be ok, I don’t know, but I tend to not eat stuff I can’t pronounce. There have never been any toxins found in Aph. flos-aquae from the lake this algae comes from. Just like with other foods, including fish, mushrooms, and plants, some species of algae are known to be toxic - AFA is not. Maybe some blue green algaes are, but not AFA. The company has been in business for 22 years and there has never been any problems reported. I’m sure there are other companies that are less attentive to quality standards than they are – perhaps they are the ones where the negative information is coming from. The website you listed is old information – there has been a lot of research on AFA by McGill University in Montreal, Harvard Medical, and many others, results were written up in JANA, and several books are out that tell of all the benefits of AFA. For my money, I would rather go as natural as possible. It costs money to be healthy – and many companies build their products down to a price. Thanks but no thanks – I’d rather have quality than quantity. Carol -----Original Message----- From: Skip [mailto:res08wix@...] Already done. What I'm going to say is comparing the QGel product to the product at the tinyurl.com/f1f7 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 26, 2004 Report Share Posted July 26, 2004 Carol et al, I guess I got my wires crossed when I was researching on the search engines. I can't find the links now but several mentioned that Aphanizomenon flos-aquae and Spirulina were the same. Perhaps I entered a wrong search word or perhaps they didn't know whereof they typed. For that error I apologize to one and all as they do appear to be different. However, I really don't think that AFA is as safe as you say. Especially if it's harvested in the wild. My reference on this is from this website for the State of land at http://www.dnr.state.md.us/bay/hab/anabaena.html .. I quote: " Among land’s tidal waters, Anabaena species and Aphanizomenon flos-aquae are frequently found in freshwaters of the Potomac River and the upper Chesapeake Bay. Their greatest abundances are usually observed during the summer. These are filamentous cyanobacteria , capable of nitrogen fixation. Anabaena is one of four genera of bluegreen algae capable of producing neurotoxins along with Oscillatoria, Lyngbya and Aphanizomenon. Anabaena flos- aqua is a major producer of neurotoxins (Carmichael 1997 Advances in Botanical Research Vol 27:211-256). The best way to minimize animal poisonings by these species that produce cyanotoxins is to recognize you are in the area of a bloom and keep animals away from the waters that may be toxic. No human deaths have been directly associated with these cyanotoxins however they may cause skin irritations or nausea. Farm animals and pets have been killed by the toxins when the animals ingested waters containing toxic blooms of one or a combination of these algal species. Such poisonings typically occur when heavy surface growths or scums of the cyanobacteria have accumulated near the shoreline and animals have easy access to toxic levels of cells (W.W. Carmichael). This type of toxin has been shown to persist in water for a week or more after the bloom has disappeared. Not all cyanobacteria blooms are toxic, and even blooms caused by known toxin producers may not produce toxins or may produce toxins at undetectable levels. It is not know what triggers toxin production. Recent studies have shown the probability that an individual bloom containing Anabaena, Microcystis , and/or Aphanizomenon will be toxic could be between 45 and 75% ( Toxic Cyanobacteria Blooms; A Field/Laboratory Guide, Dr. M. A. Crayton ). The presence of Anabaena in a water body can contribute to poor water quality because it can impart noxious odors and disagreeable tastes to the water. " That scares me far more than a preservative and I do have a hard time saying the full latin name for AFA, but then I only had a year of latin studies. I do notice that it says that AFA can be toxic if there was a bloom. I also notice it can kill farm animals and pets. Would you please point me to the research materials stating the opposite of this? Specific sites would be appreciated. I think for my omega 3's and such, I'll stick to plant sources such as flaxseed oil or perhaps chia seeds. As to Triacetin, it seems that it's used for a lot of gelatinizing. I didn't find the reference for explosives, but that makes sense as it's derived from glycerin. The reference I found for food usage is from this site: http://frwebgate.access.gpo.gov/cgi-bin/get- cfr.cgi?TITLE=21 & PART=184 & SECTION=1901 & TYPE=TEXT I quote: " Code of Federal Regulations] [Title 21, Volume 3] [Revised as of April 1, 2004] From the U.S. Government Printing Office via GPO Access [CITE: 21CFR184.1901] [Page 556] TITLE 21--FOOD AND DRUGS CHAPTER I--FOOD AND DRUG ADMINISTRATION, DEPARTMENT OF HEALTH AND HUMAN SERVICES (CONTINUED) PART 184_DIRECT FOOD SUBSTANCES AFFIRMED AS GENERALLY RECOGNIZED AS SAFE--Table of Contents Subpart B_Listing of Specific Substances Affirmed as GRAS Sec. 184.1901 Triacetin. (a) Triacetin (C<INF>8</INF> H<INF>14</INF>O<INF>6</INF>, CAS Reg. No. 102-76-1), also known as 1,2,3,-propanetriol triacetate or glyceryl triacetate, is the triester of glycerin and acetic acid. Triacetin can be prepared by heating glycerin with acetic anhydride alone or in the presence of finely divided potassium hydrogen sulfate. It can also be prepared by the reaction of oxygen with a liquid-phase mixture of allyl acetate and acetic acid using a bromide salt as a catalyst. ( The ingredient meets the specifications of the Food Chemicals Codex, 3d Ed. (1981), pp. 337-338, as revised by the First Supplement to the 3d Ed., which is incorporated by reference in accordance with 5 U.S.C. 552(a). Copies are available from the National Academy Press, 2102 Constitution Ave., NW., Washington, DC 20418, or available for inspection at the Office of the Federal Register, 800 North Capitol Street, NW., suite 700, Washington, DC 20005. © In accordance with Sec. 184.1((1), the ingredient is used in food with no limitation other than current good manufacturing practice. The affirmation of this ingredient as generally recognized as safe (GRAS) as a direct human food ingredient is based upon the following current good manufacturing practice conditions of use: (1) The ingredient is used in food as a flavoring agent and adjuvant as defined in Sec. 170.3(o)(12) of this chapter; a formulation aid as defined in Sec. 170.3(o)(14) of this chapter; and humectant as defined in Sec. 170.3(o)(16) of this chapter; and a solvent and vehicle as defined in Sec. 170.3(o)(27) of this chapter. (2) The ingredient is used in the following foods at levels not to exceed current good manufacturing practice: baked goods and baking mixes as defined in Sec. 170.3(n)(1) of this chapter, alcoholic beverages as defined in Sec. 170.3(n)(2) of this chapter; nonalcoholic beverages and beverage bases as defined in Sec. 170.3(n)(3) of this chapter; chewing gum as defined in Sec. 170.3(n)(6) of this chapter; confections and frostings as defined in Sec.170.3(n)(9) of this chapter; frozen dairy dessert and mixes as defined in Sec. 170.3(n)(20) of this chapter; gelatins, puddings, and fillngs as defined in Sec. 170.3(n)(22) of this chapter; hard candy as defined in Sec. 170.3(n)(25) of this chapter; and soft candy as defined in Sec. 170.3(n)(38) of this chapter. (d) Prior sanctions for this ingredient different from the uses established in this section do not exist or have been waived. [54 FR 7404, Feb. 21, 1989] " I don't see that it should be expensive to live and be healthy and the Super Q10 is definitely in the expensive range in my book. I'll stick to the Q-Gel, explosives and all for my money. Skip On 25 Jul 2004 at 21:55, Carol Minnick wrote: > > Skip and all, > > I need to correct a couple things in your comparison of these two CoQ10 products. > Aphanizomenon flos-aquae is not spirulina. They are two very different algaes. œAFA is a lot > more nutritious. There is a big difference in the wild blue green algae (aphanizomenon flos > aquae) and the œman made spirulina. Spirulina is grown in huge concrete vats in the western > part of US, and it is œfed whatever the chemists think it needs. Whereas the wild algae feeds on > the concentration of the minerals that are naturally in the lake. Also the wild algae has bio- > available vit. B12, whereas Spirulina has an analog of B12, which means your body cannot > utilize it and it *may* cause pernicious anemia in some people. Most Spirulina is processed > using high heat to dry it which destroys micronutrients along with the enzymatic activity. The > chlorophyll content of spirulina is 115 mg. (per 10 grams) and for the wild algae it is 300 mg. > Essential fatty acids are in the wild algae especially the omega 3™s that are so difficult to get > from your daily diet. Spirulina does not have the fatty acids because it is a warm water algae. I > have a lot more information on the differences if anyone is interested in more information, you > can email me privately. > > Polysorbate 80 is a undesirable preservative, one that I steer clear of if at all possible, and is > included in the QGel. I never heard of triacetin, but a quick search for that says one of its uses is > as a œgelatinizing agent in explosives interesting. It may be ok, I don™t know, but I > tend to not eat stuff I can™t pronounce. > There have never been any toxins found in Aph. flos-aquae from the lake this algae comes from. > Just like with other foods, including fish, mushrooms, and plants, some species of algae are > known to be toxic - AFA is not. Maybe some blue green algaes are, but not AFA. The company > has been in business for 22 years and there has never been any problems reported. I™m sure > there are other companies that are less attentive to quality standards than they are perhaps > they are the ones where the negative information is coming from. > The website you listed is old information there has been a lot of research on AFA by McGill > University in Montreal, Harvard Medical, and many others, results were written up in JANA, and > several books are out that tell of all the benefits of AFA. > For my money, I would rather go as natural as possible. It costs money to be healthy and > many companies build their products down to a price. Thanks but no thanks I™d rather have > quality than quantity. > Carol > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Skip [mailto:res08wix@...] > Already done. What I'm going to say is comparing the QGel product to the product at > the tinyurl.com/f1f7 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 26, 2004 Report Share Posted July 26, 2004 The link you gave was for algae in land.  There have never been any toxins found in Aphanizomenon flos-aquae, the algae harvested from Upper Klamath Lake, where the algae in the CoQ10 we were talking about, comes from. A morphological analysis and gene sequencing was done on six strains of Aphanizomenon, and on a toxic strain, NH-5, which does not occur in Upper Klamath Lake (Rapala et al., 1993; Skulberg et al., 1984; Gentile and Mahoney, 1969; Sawyer et al., 1968). The results of these analyses show a marked genetic difference between the toxic species from the Upper Klamath Lake species (Li et al., 2000). In addition, more recently algae scientists Li and Carmichael examined three strains of Aphanizomenon from around the world (New Hampshire, Finland, and Portugal) that have been reported to produce toxins (Li, 2000; Li, 2003). As determined by genetic and morphologic testing, it was found that all three algae strains were improperly identified as Aphanizomenon flos-aquae. All three are species in the genus Aphanizomenon but are not Aphanizomenon flos-aquae. The organism harvested in Upper Klamath Lake is a filamentous, colony forming cyanobacterium. Colony forming morphology is one of the characteristics of non-toxic strains of Aphanizomenon, and conversely, toxin producing strains of Aphanizomenon are not known to form colonies. Li and Carmichael noted colony formation, or lack thereof, and other morphologic distinctions when comparing Upper Klamath Lake Aphanizomenon flos-aquae with toxin producing strains of Aphanizomenon. Additionally, and perhaps more importantly, genetic comparison of Klamath Lake Aphanizomenon flos-aquae to other species in the genus Aphanizomenon clearly indicates the dissimilarity between Klamath Lake Aphanizomenon flos-aquae and toxin-producing Aphanizomenon species. Based on morphologic and genetic testing, Li and Carmichael placed toxin-producing strains of Aphanizomenon in a distinct taxonomic group separate from Upper Klamath Lake's Aphanizomenon flos-aquae, and other non-toxin producing strains of Aphanizomenon. The U.S. Department of Agriculture has set guidelines for tests, and the tests themselves are performed and certified by independent laboratories to corroborate the results of in-house testing. What about Microcystis? If there is danger of Microcystis contamination, there is no harvest. The rigorous in-house and independent laboratory testing for microcystin (the toxin produced by Microcystis) and other possible contaminants further ensures the quality and safety of the products (Carmichael and Gorham, 1980; Gorham, 1964). All of the tests meet the highest scientific standards. Additionally, the Food Safety Division of the Oregon Department of Agriculture (which is responsible for licensing the production and ensuring the safety of food products produced in Oregon) has never given the company as much as a letter or note of concern that it might be out of compliance with the state's stringent regulations. You may also be interested in reading the books “Algae to the Rescue†by Karl Abrams; or “Edible Microalgae, a Review of the Health Research†by Bruno, both very extensive research done on the health benefits of microalgae.  Carol -----Original Message----- From: Skip [mailto:res08wix@...] Carol et al, I guess I got my wires crossed when I was researching on the search engines. I can't find the links now but several mentioned that Aphanizomenon flos-aquae and Spirulina were the same. Perhaps I entered a wrong search word or perhaps they didn't know whereof they typed. For that error I apologize to one and all as they do appear to be different. Skip On 25 Jul 2004 at 21:55, Carol Minnick wrote: > > Skip and all, > > I need to correct a couple things in your comparison of these two CoQ10 products. > Aphanizomenon flos-aquae is not spirulina. They are two very different algaes. œAFA is a lot > more nutritious. There is a big difference in the wild blue green algae (aphanizomenon flos > aquae) and the œman made spirulina. Spirulina is grown in huge concrete vats in the western > part of US, and it is œfed whatever the chemists think it needs. Whereas the wild algae feeds on > the concentration of the minerals that are naturally in the lake. Also the wild algae has bio- > available vit. B12, whereas Spirulina has an analog of B12, which means your body cannot > utilize it “ and it *may* cause pernicious anemia in some people. Most Spirulina is processed > using high heat to dry it which destroys micronutrients along with the enzymatic activity. The > chlorophyll content of spirulina is 115 mg. (per 10 grams) and for the wild algae it is 300 mg. > Essential fatty acids are in the wild algae “ especially the omega 3™s that are so difficult to get > from your daily diet. Spirulina does not have the fatty acids because it is a warm water algae. I > have a lot more information on the differences “ if anyone is interested in more information, you > can email me privately. > > Polysorbate 80 is a undesirable preservative, one that I steer clear of if at all possible, and is > included in the QGel. I never heard of triacetin, but a quick search for that says one of its uses is > as a œgelatinizing agent in explosives “ interesting. It may be ok, I don™t know, but I > tend to not eat stuff I can™t pronounce. > There have never been any toxins found in Aph. flos-aquae from the lake this algae comes from. > Just like with other foods, including fish, mushrooms, and plants, some species of algae are > known to be toxic - AFA is not. Maybe some blue green algaes are, but not AFA. The company > has been in business for 22 years and there has never been any problems reported. I™m sure > there are other companies that are less attentive to quality standards than they are “ perhaps > they are the ones where the negative information is coming from. > The website you listed is old information “there has been a lot of research on AFA by McGill > University in Montreal, Harvard Medical, and many others, results were written up in JANA, and > several books are out that tell of all the benefits of AFA. > For my money, I would rather go as natural as possible. It costs money to be healthy “ and > many companies build their products down to a price. Thanks but no thanks “ I™d rather have > quality than quantity. > Carol >  Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 26, 2004 Report Share Posted July 26, 2004 Carol, I'm sure we could go on forever finding pro's and con's about algae. It's still pond scum no matter the name. I've found mention of toxic blooms at Upper Klamath Lake and I've seen government documents stating that the algae growth is killing fish in that lake. I've also seen the same stuff you sent to the list and how people go to help with this and that at the lake. I can see that you feel the need to argue this continually as you are obviously a vendor for the Super Q10 product at the website you sent to the list. You really should have disclosed that when you posted that you used it. If you wish to continue this offlist, I might if I have the time. I'm sure the list is really tired of the back and forth banter on this. Regards, Skip On 26 Jul 2004 at 9:32, Carol Minnick wrote: > > The link you gave was for algae in land. Â There have never been any toxins > found in Aphanizomenon flos-aquae, the algae harvested from Upper Klamath Lake, Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 26, 2004 Report Share Posted July 26, 2004 I'm just answering your questions - that's all, nothing more, nothing less. I have all the facts regarding the " con's " if you ever want to read it. Carol -----Original Message----- From: Skip [mailto:res08wix@...] Carol, I'm sure we could go on forever finding pro's and con's about algae Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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