Guest guest Posted August 30, 2011 Report Share Posted August 30, 2011 Joe, Natural sources of MCT: virgin coconut oil -66%, palm kernel oil - 55%.  Note that palm oil (palm kernel oil and palm oil are different, though they come from the same palm fruit) does not contain significant amount of MCT Commercial MCT oil is chemically produced from coconut and/or palm kernel oils. The oils are first chemically hydrolyzed to remove the fatty acids from glycerol. The separated fatty acids are then fractionated by vaporizing it up to 550 deg F and subsequently condensed. Fatty acids have different condensation temperatures: the condensed fraction of medium-chain fatty acids are collected together (thus the use of the term fractionated oil). The collected fraction of medium-chain fatty acids (MCFA) are re-combined with glycerol in an esterification chemical reaction, using dehydrating agents like sulfuric acid, to transform it back to MCT. The intense processing that commercial MCT oils undergo is the main reason why the oil is relatively thick, even thicker than another intensely-processed RBD coconut oil. MCT oils have specific gravity of about 0.95, while VCO is light at 0.91. A practical way to get MCT without the chemically and heat intense processing is to extract it from VCO at home. Starting with a VCO in completely liquid state, put it in an area that has a temperature of about 73 to 77 deg F. At this temperature, the VCO will slowly solidify. When about half of the oil is already solidified, decant the remaining liquid part. This liquid is rich in MCT - up to 85% when cooling is slow enough and decantation is done carefully. The thicker solidified portion is primarily LCT but still contains some amount of MCT, and is suitable as cooking oil. I hope the above helps. Tony Geniston ________________________________ From: joehomps <jh@...> Coconut Oil Sent: Tuesday, August 30, 2011 8:14 AM Subject: Re: Philippine News Item - Virgin coconut oil hailed as cure for alzheimers  I did not follow the whole thread. So can someone clarify what is the best source of the MCT (medium chain triglyceride)? Should it be from coconut, or palm, or whatever natural source? I believe the source of the MCT should make a difference in its use/efficacy. Joe > > > > > > > > We have to wait for the study he was denied to find out if its just the MCT > > > > >oil > > > > > > > > > > > by itself or if the whole coconut oil is necessary since the study was just > > > > > > using the MCT oil and Dr. Newport used coconut oil. > > > > > > > > > > > > I kind of doubt that its a cure in the sense that the brain returns to > > >normal, > > > > > > > > > > rather it gets more energy to the brain cells that are still working well. > > > >For > > > > > > > > > > > it to be a cure, it would have to allow for the brain cells to be replaced > >by > > > > > > > > > new ones or repair the damaged cells and I have not read or heard that the > > > > > energy provided by MCT oil does that. > > > > > > > > C > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________ > > > > From: AGPacific Nutriceutical <agnutriceutical@> > > > > Coconut forum <Coconut Oil > > > > > Sent: Sun, August 28, 2011 8:35:49 AM > > > > Subject: Philippine News Item - Virgin coconut oil > > > > > > hailed as cure for alzheimers > > > > > > > > > > > > Would like to share this news item from our little spot of the planet. > > > > > >>>http://newsinfo.inquirer.net/48957/virgin-coconut-oil-hailed-as-cure-for-alzh\ eimer%E2%80%99s > >s > > >s > > > >s > > > > > > > > > > > > Tony > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 30, 2011 Report Share Posted August 30, 2011 Very interesting Tony. Living in Florida I've noticed this often happens naturally with VCO as the season changes from summer to winter. I'll have to give this a try! Thanks, Dee > > > A practical way to get MCT without the chemically and heat intense processing is to extract it from VCO at home. Starting with a VCO in completely liquid state, put it in an area that has a temperature of about 73 to 77 deg F. At this temperature, the VCO will slowly solidify. When about half of the oil is already solidified, decant the remaining liquid part. This liquid is rich in MCT - up to 85% when cooling is slow enough and decantation is done carefully. The thicker solidified portion is primarily LCT but still contains some amount of MCT, and is suitable as cooking oil. > > I hope the above helps. > > Tony Geniston > > > > ________________________________ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 30, 2011 Report Share Posted August 30, 2011 Most of the lauric acid stays with the LCT fats in the home-extracted MCT oil exercise because it is solid at room temperature up to about 43 celsius, while the shorter chain fats are liquid at room temperature. Capric and caprylic acids are about 14% of the entire VCO batch. all good, Duncan > > Joe, The thicker solidified portion is primarily LCT but still contains some amount of MCT, and is suitable as cooking oil. > > I hope the above helps. > > Tony Geniston > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 31, 2011 Report Share Posted August 31, 2011 Duncan, With due respect, I have to say that the post below is confident but uninformed. Yes, pure lauric acid has freezing point of more than 40 deg celsius. With sufficient knowledge on physical chemistry, there is a fact about freezing point lowering and elevation among miscible liquids. The higher freezing point of laurin is lowered by the lower freezing point of caproin, caprin, capryllin. Didn't you notice that VCO is all liquid at 26 deg celsius, yet pure laurin (which is at least 50% of VCO) is supposed to freeze at 43 deg celsius? Buddy, just try it instead, and at least continue looking like the " resident genius " , in Dee's words. Tony ________________________________ From: Duncan Crow <duncancrow@...> Coconut Oil Sent: Tuesday, August 30, 2011 11:13 PM Subject: Re: MCT Source  Most of the lauric acid stays with the LCT fats in the home-extracted MCT oil exercise because it is solid at room temperature up to about 43 celsius, while the shorter chain fats are liquid at room temperature. Capric and caprylic acids are about 14% of the entire VCO batch. all good, Duncan > > Joe, The thicker solidified portion is primarily LCT but still contains some amount of MCT, and is suitable as cooking oil. > > I hope the above helps. > > Tony Geniston > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 31, 2011 Report Share Posted August 31, 2011 Hi Tony, I think what should be made clear is that in a mix (miscible liquid, meaning the components mix without reacting), a change to a property of a component does not occur. Adding antifreeze to water similarly changes the freezing point of the solution but doesn't change the freezing point of the water itself because the solution is not water any more. Your post I think confuses the property of an ingredient of a mix with that of the mix itself; at least it seemed so to me to be so the way it was written. At any rate, your fractioning post is valid overall; the higher fraction will not contain much lauric acid and the lower fraction will contain more of it. I have no desire to fractionate coconut oil myself because I'd have trouble getting rid of the waste in this exercise, which is about 88% of the total. Three tbsp of MCT oil (capric and caprylic acid) would be contained in about 3/4 pound of coconut oil. This would be rather much to process to get a 3 tbsp serving of MCT oil. I don't mind a little teasing, Tony; I'll give you some too all good, Duncan > > Duncan, > > With due respect, I have to say that the post below is confident but uninformed. Yes, pure lauric acid has freezing point of more than 40 deg celsius. With sufficient knowledge on physical chemistry, there is a fact about freezing point lowering and elevation among miscible liquids. The higher freezing point of laurin is lowered by the lower freezing point of caproin, caprin, capryllin. Didn't you notice that VCO is all liquid at 26 deg celsius, yet pure laurin (which is at least 50% of VCO) is supposed to freeze at 43 deg celsius? > > > Buddy, just try it instead, and at least continue looking like the " resident genius " , in Dee's words. > > > Tony > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 1, 2011 Report Share Posted September 1, 2011 Hi Duncan. What I was saying was that the statement in your previous post, quote " Most of the lauric acid stays with the LCT fats in the home-extracted MCT oil exercise because it is solid at room temperature up to about 43 celsius... " unquote, was dead wrong based on textbook physical chemistry, and reality. Tony ________________________________ From: Duncan Crow <duncancrow@...> Coconut Oil Sent: Thursday, September 1, 2011 12:16 AM Subject: Re: MCT Source  Hi Tony, I think what should be made clear is that in a mix (miscible liquid, meaning the components mix without reacting), a change to a property of a component does not occur. Adding antifreeze to water similarly changes the freezing point of the solution but doesn't change the freezing point of the water itself because the solution is not water any more. Your post I think confuses the property of an ingredient of a mix with that of the mix itself; at least it seemed so to me to be so the way it was written. At any rate, your fractioning post is valid overall; the higher fraction will not contain much lauric acid and the lower fraction will contain more of it. I have no desire to fractionate coconut oil myself because I'd have trouble getting rid of the waste in this exercise, which is about 88% of the total. Three tbsp of MCT oil (capric and caprylic acid) would be contained in about 3/4 pound of coconut oil. This would be rather much to process to get a 3 tbsp serving of MCT oil. I don't mind a little teasing, Tony; I'll give you some too all good, Duncan > > Duncan, > > With due respect, I have to say that the post below is confident but uninformed. Yes, pure lauric acid has freezing point of more than 40 deg celsius. With sufficient knowledge on physical chemistry, there is a fact about freezing point lowering and elevation among miscible liquids. The higher freezing point of laurin is lowered by the lower freezing point of caproin, caprin, capryllin. Didn't you notice that VCO is all liquid at 26 deg celsius, yet pure laurin (which is at least 50% of VCO) is supposed to freeze at 43 deg celsius? > > > Buddy, just try it instead, and at least continue looking like the " resident genius " , in Dee's words. > > > Tony > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 1, 2011 Report Share Posted September 1, 2011 Tony, without splitting hairs over a few degrees of heat in a kitchen table experiment, what you proposed was to skim the top layer of MCT oil off off after the coconut oil cools. At the point of solidifying the bottom 3/4 of the oil, the skim (liquid) should not contain much lauric acid (which is congealed in the lower fraction). I bought my MCT oil so it's been done for me. all good, Duncan > > > > Duncan, > > > > With due respect, I have to say that the post below is confident but uninformed. Yes, pure lauric acid has freezing point of more than 40 deg celsius. With sufficient knowledge on physical chemistry, there is a fact about freezing point lowering and elevation among miscible liquids. The higher freezing point of laurin is lowered by the lower freezing point of caproin, caprin, capryllin. Didn't you notice that VCO is all liquid at 26 deg celsius, yet pure laurin (which is at least 50% of VCO) is supposed to freeze at 43 deg celsius? > > > > > > Buddy, just try it instead, and at least continue looking like the " resident genius " , in Dee's words. > > > > > > Tony > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 1, 2011 Report Share Posted September 1, 2011 I should have added that room temperature in the northern latitudes is around 20-22 celsius so the fractionated coconut oil should congeal the lauric acid pretty good. all good, Duncan > > Tony, without splitting hairs over a few degrees of heat in a kitchen table experiment, what you proposed was to skim the top layer of MCT oil off off after the coconut oil cools. At the point of solidifying the bottom 3/4 of the oil, the skim (liquid) should not contain much lauric acid (which is congealed in the lower fraction). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 2, 2011 Report Share Posted September 2, 2011 Duncan, please do not put words into my post. I did not say 3/4 is solidified. I said 1/2. Buddy, I should now say that the post below is confident but ignorant! Tony ________________________________ From: Duncan Crow <duncancrow@...> Coconut Oil Sent: Friday, September 2, 2011 1:30 AM Subject: Re: MCT Source  I should have added that room temperature in the northern latitudes is around 20-22 celsius so the fractionated coconut oil should congeal the lauric acid pretty good. all good, Duncan > > Tony, without splitting hairs over a few degrees of heat in a kitchen table experiment, what you proposed was to skim the top layer of MCT oil off off after the coconut oil cools. At the point of solidifying the bottom 3/4 of the oil, the skim (liquid) should not contain much lauric acid (which is congealed in the lower fraction). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 2, 2011 Report Share Posted September 2, 2011 Tony, my point is that the unclouded portion in the top 1/2 a jar will contain a lot of lauric acid, which is what we're trying to leave in the jar in this experiment. This is your field Tony and I think you'd agree that skimming the top liquid from a jar is an inexact science. We want all of that the 12% MCT oil that this exercise can yield. Correct me if I'm wrong but I think if one skims less MCT oil from the top on the first pass then repeats the skimming procedure after carefully warming agitating and cooling the VCO again, it delivers better-quality MCT oil I think if 1/2 is solidified I would skim 1/8 and then maybe repeat that. This would yield most of the MCT oil with the skim totalling less than 50% of capric and caprylic acids and more than 50% lauric acid. This would be about the best you'd get it seems. Most of us choose to not skim the MCT-rich fraction from coconut oil though; I prefer to add the MCT oil to my diet because I don't want as much lauric acid as VCO provides. all good, Duncan > > Duncan, please do not put words into my post. I did not say 3/4 is solidified. I said 1/2. Buddy, I should now say that the post below is confident but ignorant! > > Tony > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 2, 2011 Report Share Posted September 2, 2011 What's wrong with more lauric acid? Joe > > > > Duncan, please do not put words into my post. I did not say 3/4 is solidified. I said 1/2. Buddy, I should now say that the post below is confident but ignorant! > > > > Tony > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 2, 2011 Report Share Posted September 2, 2011 Hi Joe, There is absolutely NOTHING wrong with lauric acid when consumed in coconut oil. Here is what Bruce Fife (who has researched coconut oil and its' properties extensively) has to say about the importance of ALL of the fatty acids in coconut oil: " The individual MCFAs exert different effects on different microorganisms. Some microorganisms that are only mildly affected by monolaurin may be completely destroyed by caprylic acid or capric acid. Lauric acid by itself is a very potent antimicrobial. Caproic and myistic acids and other fatty acids in coconut oil also possess antimicrobial power, EACH WITH ITS OWN UNIQUE ABILITY TO KILL CERTAIN ORGANISM BETTER THAN OTHER FATTY ACIDS. When they are combined, as they are in natural coconut oil, they WORK SYNERGISTICALLY TOGETHER, improving their overall germ-fighting power, making it greater than any single MCFA alone. " Also, I would not waste my money on refined deodorised copra oil, as Duncan suggests. A reasonably priced and good tasting VCO (Virgin Coconut Oil) is Nutiva brand. http://tinyurl.com/3nk8b99 Best, Dee > > What's wrong with more lauric acid? > > Joe > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 3, 2011 Report Share Posted September 3, 2011 Joe, capric and caprylic acids comprise the " MCT oil " that is referred to in much of the research that many people erroneously attribute to " coconut oil " research. VCO is only about 12% MCT oil, and MCT oil is widely known as the healthiest fraction. Lauric acid, a longer-chained fat comprising 51% of VCO, doesn't produce the ketones, increase energy and metabolism, and reduce one's weight as effectively as MCT oil does. Lauric acid can be stored in fat rather than used immediately for energy as the MCT oils are. So, besides a little red blood cell hemolysis noted in the research after oral dosing of lauric acid, there's nothing " wrong " with taking extra lauric acid, but health can be improved by taking extra MCT oil instead. We discuss fatty acids and balance a lot in this forum, and it seems there's an advantage to knowing the properties of MCT oil vs. coconut oil. all good, Duncan > > > > > > Duncan, please do not put words into my post. I did not say 3/4 is solidified. I said 1/2. Buddy, I should now say that the post below is confident but ignorant! > > > > > > Tony > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 3, 2011 Report Share Posted September 3, 2011 Duncan, Can you indicate which research you mentioned below? Tony " So, besides a little red blood cell hemolysis noted in the research after oral dosing of lauric acid, " Â Duncan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 3, 2011 Report Share Posted September 3, 2011 Sure, Tony; here are some studies that mention the hemolysis (leakage of iron from red blood cells) caused by lauric acid. Iron is a potent oxidant and the escaping iron produces huge oxidative stress, which is a cause or aggravating factor of most diseases. Oxidative stress is a huge component of metabolic syndrome too, which many people try to reduce with MCT oil as opposed to the lesser effect of VCO in this regard. " Lauric acid ...caused hemolysis under normotonic conditions. " http://www.springerlink.com/content/h009675m113g2463/ " lauric acid (12:0) represents the minimum chain length for ...hemolysis promotion " http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/2357483 Title: Effect of metabolic inhibitors on lauric acid-induced hemolysis. (sorry, no abstract available) http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/4715534 Oral dosing is known to commit lauric acid to the bloodstream under normotonic conditions. There are more cites here on PubMed: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/sites/entrez?db=pubmed & cmd=DetailsSearch & term=hemoly\ sis+lauric & save_search=true Here's a PubMed search on iron AND " oxidative stress " <http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed?term=%28%22iron%22%5BMeSH%20Terms%5D%20OR%20\ %22iron%22%5BAll%20Fields%5D%29%20AND%20%22oxidative%20stress%22%5BAll%20Fields%\ 5D & cmd=DetailsSearch> In this Gooogle search on iron biofilm infection you'll see snips like, " [interfering] with iron metabolism shows promise as a treatment for P. aeruginosa infections.' Candida and other infections are also mentioned in the context of reducing iron to reduce infection: <http://www.google.ca/search?q=iron+biofilm+infection> Googling iron Alzheimer's: <http://www.google.ca/search?sclient=psy & hl=en & source=hp & q=iron+alzheimer%27s & bt\ nG=Search> Many studies come up such as " A potential pathogenetic role of iron in Alzheimer's disease " ...: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18466351 ....which illuminate the role free iron can play in Alzheimer's. So, reducing foods that cause hemolysis would be a good thing. Just possibly the large component of lauric acid in a VCO dose supports Alzheimer's treatments less than it adds hemolysis. On the other hand, MCT oil supports the treatment and does not produce hemolysis so it's my first choice for medium chain fats. all good, Duncan > > Duncan, > > Can you indicate which research you mentioned below? > > Tony > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 4, 2011 Report Share Posted September 4, 2011 Duncan, In organic chemistry, MCT refers to fats with 6 to 12 carbon-chain (caproin, capryllin, caprin and laurin).  In the market-place MCT refers to the MCT oil being sold composed primarily of capryllin and caprin, which is only a fraction of total MCT. I was referring to the chemistry MCT in the suggested home-based MCT extraction method by fractional freezing. Tony ________________________________ From: Duncan Crow <duncancrow@...> Coconut Oil Sent: Friday, September 2, 2011 11:36 PM Subject: Re: MCT Source  Tony, my point is that the unclouded portion in the top 1/2 a jar will contain a lot of lauric acid, which is what we're trying to leave in the jar in this experiment. This is your field Tony and I think you'd agree that skimming the top liquid from a jar is an inexact science. We want all of that the 12% MCT oil that this exercise can yield. Correct me if I'm wrong but I think if one skims less MCT oil from the top on the first pass then repeats the skimming procedure after carefully warming agitating and cooling the VCO again, it delivers better-quality MCT oil I think if 1/2 is solidified I would skim 1/8 and then maybe repeat that. This would yield most of the MCT oil with the skim totalling less than 50% of capric and caprylic acids and more than 50% lauric acid. This would be about the best you'd get it seems. Most of us choose to not skim the MCT-rich fraction from coconut oil though; I prefer to add the MCT oil to my diet because I don't want as much lauric acid as VCO provides. all good, Duncan > > Duncan, please do not put words into my post. I did not say 3/4 is solidified. I said 1/2. Buddy, I should now say that the post below is confident but ignorant! > > Tony > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 4, 2011 Report Share Posted September 4, 2011 OK, so your exercise Tony is NOT to try and get the 6:10 fatty acids you can out of the coconut oil, to make your own marketplace MCT oil? Rather, it is to skim off the 12 carbon lauric acid WITH the 6:10 acids? Why would you want to do that? all good, Duncan > > Duncan, > > In organic chemistry, MCT refers to fats with 6 to 12 carbon-chain (caproin, capryllin, caprin and laurin).  In the market-place MCT refers to the MCT oil being sold composed primarily of capryllin and caprin, which is only a fraction of total MCT. > > I was referring to the chemistry MCT in the suggested home-based MCT extraction method by fractional freezing. > > Tony > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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