Re: New to group - weight gain on CO

[Guest guest]

Duncan,

I'll check out that book, thanks. And will try to do the " no fruit " thing too

I responded about the HC in another post - I only take a physicologic dose so do

not believe i'd have those side effects. However, I already surely do have a

leaky gut due to the celiac. Hopefully this plan w/ the inulin etc can help heal

that as well?

Do you recommend psyllium powder or caps? Or doens't it matter? I plan to eat

lots of greens, so maybe won't need the extra fiber...

Liz

> >

> > Hi Duncan,

> > Thanks for this detailed explanation, I really appreciate it : )

> >

> > I tried to buy inulin yesterday but no one had it in stock. I guess i'll

order online.

> >

> > If I follow a ketogenic or at least close to ketogenic diet along w/ your

suggested supplements, do I also need to not eat all fruits for the candida, or

can I still eat berries? And what about yogurt? I'm thinking that with as

little as i've been eating the last couple days, if I cut out yogurt (I eat

maybe one cup per day, if that) and berries (peaches?) too, then i'll really be

hungry!! So far, I have felt hungry, but not at all hypoglycemic or faint or

anything, just a healthy kind of hungry,lol - actually feels good!

> >

> > I'm def not the body builder type I'm 46, about 25 lbs overweight,

really maybe only 20, but high body fat and very poor muscle tone or stamina.

Getting off gluten and most dairy took care of my joint pains and digestive

issues for the most part. taking hydrocortisone every day helps me survive and

have energy for the day, but barely! I know alot about nutrition, actually have

a master's degree in it...but the brain fog has caused me to have a hard time

retaining my knowledge in some areas! I know I learned all about ketosis, but

can't remember it at all!

> >

> > I'm glad to have found this board/forum, there seems to be many people with

alot of knowledge that I can learn from : )

> >

> > Peace,

> > Liz

> >

>

[Guest guest]

Hi Liz,

The goal is to be at the high end but morning may not be the best indicator.

Also, I would wait until the week is up to give your body more time to change

over to fat burning mode. Just stick to the diet and you'll be fine. I also

wouldn't check more than once a day. Choose the time of day when it seems to be

the highest as the reading can also be influenced by other things. Here are two

websites that might help. This one gives more general information:

http://www.lowcarbluxury.com/ketostix.html

And this one gives feedback from low carber's using the ketostix who sometimes

get low readings:

http://www.reddit.com/r/keto/comments/gpt3e/reading_ketostix/

Best,

Dee

>

>

> With the ketostix, what is the goal? To be in the middle, at the high end, or

what? last night it was in the " small " to " moderate " range. This mornign, back

to " trace " .

>

> Liz

>

[Guest guest]

Hmm. Maybe " T " could use some of that :-)

Dee

>

If I went off it now though, i'd have zero energy and would be yelling at

everyone around me...no one wants that!

>

[Guest guest]

Atkins always suggested Asparagus and salad greens for the induction phase of

his diet.

C.

________________________________

From: " cking001@... " <cking001@...>

Coconut Oil

Sent: Thu, September 15, 2011 10:12:48 PM

Subject: Re: Re: New to group - weight gain on CO

I'll say, for the week, try to be determined to be as strict as

possible.

NO fruit.

NO grains.

NO milk.

NO white stuff (sugar, flour, potatoes, rice, any starch)

Trim visible fats from meats.

Limit cheese, try for lowfat types. They are OK.

Your whey powder is reasonable with carb load, so OK.

For this one week, limit fatty fish.

Otherwise fish and trimmed meats are OK.

Eggs are OK.

Lowfat Greek yogurt is fine.

Avocados are for later, not this week.

In fact, limit vege's to a single side dish.

Save the rice for next week (limited)

If you have ketosticks, you should see something by day three,

depending on your determination.

By next week, you add back in limited quantity, the stuff you like, a

bit at a time, and see what shows up on the stix AND the scale.

I'd probably add fats first.

Then low glycemic vege's.

Fruit should become an occasional thing, although berries are low

glycemic and preferred.

Anyway, I'm trying to get just a weeks commitment.

How hard can that be?

If you have a home sphygmomanometer, check your blood pressure, it

should improve (most do).

Chuck

I drive way too fast to worry about cholesterol....

On 9/15/2011 9:35:41 PM, lizz7711 (lizz7711@...) wrote:

> Hi Chuck,

> When you say low fat, do you mean any fat outside of the fat

> that's in all the protein you're eating? because eggs, meat, cheese, etc,

> all have alot of fat, so do avocados, fish, coconut milk/oil, etc.

>

> And " NO " carb...how low is this? My whey powder has 8 grams of carbs,

> another green powder I have that I like has 17, yogurt has some carbs...

> and obviously even if I eat the lowest carb veggies and fruits,

> i'll still get SOME carbs...do you just judge this based on the ketostix?

>

> today I had zero carbs except for yogurt and the whey shakes, and literally

two

>bites of rice. I'm

> doing fine, feeling a little tired, but i'm sure that's normal.

>

> Liz

>

>

> >

> > Actually for most folk, three days to ketosis is more typical.

> > It is for me, and Atkins and other sources seem to agree.

> >

> > Diet induced ketosis is an optimum condition, and keto stix help you

> > determine your carb range limit. (how much carb you can take and still

> > be ketogenic) , but this stuff comes later AFTER you get yourself past

> > that first tough restrictive week.

>

[Guest guest]

Hydrosylation of whey to break down peptides is an additional process that

improves assimilation and also raises the cost and leaves traces of MSG. Keeping

it in context, the body recycles many grams of glutamate daily anyway, and a

little in the food won't negatively affect most people. Lots of us use soya

sauce in our asian stir fry too without issues and it also contains MSG

all good,

Duncan

>

> Good to know...on Blaylock's list of things with MSG, the hydrolyzed proteins

" always contain " MSG, the " isolates " like soy protein isolate and concentrate,

whey protein isolate, and whey protein concentrate (I was mistaken, they are

both in the same category for) etc, " may " have MSG. I'll have to look at the

book again to see if he explains this difference or why the isolates are said to

have this problem...it could be the way certain companies do their processing

that is the problem, versus more reputable companies...

>

> Liz

>

[Guest guest]

yup, some people can handle MSG. But w/ a leaky gut, esp. w/ gluten sensitivity,

there is a protein called zonulin which is increased, and opens the junctures

of intestine and the BRain, so these chemicals cross into the brain and cause

symptoms for many. Just google " zonulin " and you can find out more about it.

Here's a quote from a forum:

About Zonulin

Zonulin is a signaling protein that transiently and reversibly opens the tight

junctions ( " tj " ) between the cells of epithelial and endothelial tissues such as

the intestinal mucosa, blood brain barrier and pulmonary epithelia. Zonulin

appears to be involved in many diseases in which leakage occurs via paracellular

transport across epithelial and endothelial tight junctions (tj),

and thus may play an important potential role in the treatment of autoimmune

diseases.

http://www.celiac.com/st_prod.html?p_prodid=1251

With glutamate, it's in tons of whole foods, but then it is with the proteins

and other substances it's supposed to be with, so should n't cause trouble. But

if the glutamate level in the blood gets too high, it will cross into the brain

potentially, esp. if you already have this zonulin issue and can be damaging

your system even if you don't seem to have symptoms. Me and my daughter happen

to both react strongly to MSG. Parmesan cheese is a whole food that also causes

us to react due to its high glutamate level. Sad, isn't it? But, if we heal

the intestines, i'm sure we'd then be able to tolerate it much better. I've

researched for years all about this, and about the anti-candida diet etc, just

never had the gumption/will/time/ whatever, to DO it, till now. : ) so here we

go!

Liz

> >

> > Good to know...on Blaylock's list of things with MSG, the hydrolyzed

proteins " always contain " MSG, the " isolates " like soy protein isolate and

concentrate, whey protein isolate, and whey protein concentrate (I was mistaken,

they are both in the same category for) etc, " may " have MSG. I'll have to look

at the book again to see if he explains this difference or why the isolates are

said to have this problem...it could be the way certain companies do their

processing that is the problem, versus more reputable companies...

> >

> > Liz

> >

>

[Guest guest]

Zonulin, celiac disease, intestinal permeability and the BBB:

http://www.umm.edu/news/releases/zonulin.htm

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2570116/

http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/j.1749-6632.2000.tb05244.x/abstract

> > >

> > > Good to know...on Blaylock's list of things with MSG, the hydrolyzed

proteins " always contain " MSG, the " isolates " like soy protein isolate and

concentrate, whey protein isolate, and whey protein concentrate (I was mistaken,

they are both in the same category for) etc, " may " have MSG. I'll have to look

at the book again to see if he explains this difference or why the isolates are

said to have this problem...it could be the way certain companies do their

processing that is the problem, versus more reputable companies...

> > >

> > > Liz

> > >

> >

>

[Guest guest]

8 grams of carbs per serving does seem high for an undenatured whey powder. That

usually means starch has been added. The Kaizen natural whey concentrate/isolate

I have has a total of 2 grams of carb, only 1 gram of that is sugar per 29 gram

scoop. I think it's a rather small scoop. Lots of people do three somewhat

oversize servings compared to that so would get 8 grams of carb in total, 4

grams of sugar over the day. I think that's more like what most of us accept as

normal.

We usually buy cheaper products but this unusually " high-alpha " whey isolate

formulated by Dr. n Whitaker, Lorna Vanderhaegh, and Brad King, is of

interest; note they added MCT oil, presumably becasue it is a body building

product as well as a health product, and the MCT oil is useful as a fat loss

tool:

Nutritional Facts

Energy 140Cal

Protein 25g

Fat 2g

Carbohydrate 2g

Dietary fibre 0.3g

Protein Microfraction

Alpha-lactalbumin 33%

Beta-lactoglobulin 40%

Glycomacropeptides 23%

Immunoglobulin 2%

Albumin 1%

Lactoferrin 1%

Branch Chain Amino Acid (BCAA) Profile

Isoleucine 5%

Leucine 11.5%

Valine 5%

Ingredients: High Alpha-Lactalbumin Whey Protein

Isolate, Tropical Vanilla Flavour Blend, Medium Chain

Triglycerides, Lecithin, Guar Gum and Stevia.

http://www.nationalnutrition.ca/detail.aspx?ID=2147

all good,

Duncan

> > > My whey powder has 8 grams of carbs

> >

> > Mine has ZERO... if yours has 8 per serving, then it is loaded with CRAP...

> >

>

[Guest guest]

I hear you Liz. Leaky gut with gluten sensitivity may highlight dysbiosis and

candidiasis issues, which can cause celiac disease by virtue of having the same

irritating protein as gluten does in its cell wall. Dysbiosis/candida will also

cause celiac symptoms in a pre-disease state. Hope your state is in the last

category, as once the candidiasis and dysbiosis are resolved the celiac symptoms

often go away. Dysbiosis/Leaky gut/candida can be healed with

whey-selenium-inulin; some people take extra glutamine but there is quite a lot

in the whey and it's not usually deficient in the diet.

all good,

Duncan

>

> yup, some people can handle MSG. But w/ a leaky gut, esp. w/ gluten

sensitivity, there is a protein called zonulin which is increased, and opens

the junctures of intestine and the BRain, so these chemicals cross into the

brain and cause symptoms for many.

[Guest guest]

Trace is fine, shows your burning fat.

Try to measure at the same time of day, 'cause it'll vary with your

liquid/food intake during the day.

I think you're doing great, 'cause this is really hard for most people

(they rationalize all over the place).

Chuck

I need my sinuses like I need a hole in the head.

On 9/16/2011 9:17:02 AM, lizz7711 (lizz7711@...) wrote:

> With the ketostix, what is the goal? To be in the middle, at the high end, or

what? last night it was in the " small " to " moderate " range. This mornign, back

to " trace " .

>

> Liz

[Guest guest]

I found this one on line, $39 for 2 lbs:

http://www.energyfirst.com/Whey-Protein-Isolate-Vanilla-2-lbs

Or Mercola's which also has MCT in it - this one sounds great but is $30 for

11day supply!:http://proteinpowder.mercola.com/Miracle-Whey-Protein.html

Made from all-natural grass fed cows' whey, providing more of nature's nutrients

Is certified free of GMO ingredients, pesticides, and chemicals, protecting you

from the damaging effects of chemicals and hormones*

Is cold processed, and never processed with acid chemicals, thereby retaining

all its natural goodness

Provides all key amino acids, so you get all the protein building blocks your

body needs*

Retains maximum biological value with beneficial micronutrients intact*

Contains the highest concentration of leucine of any dairy product, said to

increase energy levels and support building of muscle mass*

Contains water-soluble fiber, which supports healthy blood sugar levels* and

prebiotic properties*

Contains 25% or more glycomacropeptides for immune support, high energy, muscle

building and recovery after exercise*

Contains MCTs from all-natural coconut oil for easy digestion and fast energy*

Rich in glutamic acid and branch chain amino acids which aid muscle-building and

recovery *

Contains all whey microfructures, immunoglobulins and lactoferins, promoting

your healthy immune function and healthy flora balance*

No sugar, sugar alcohol or artificial sweeteners added that detract from the

positive benefits of whey.

Includes the same immuno compounds that are found naturally in human breast milk

-- responsible for providing newborns with their immune defense*

Promotes satiety, so compulsive craving for refined carbs and sweets is curbed*

Comes in your choice of six delicious flavors with no aftertaste like some

powders on the market. Available in vanilla, strawberry, chocolate, blueberry,

banana and peanut butter (made from all-organic peanuts)

Plus, Miracle Whey™ contains the much researched (and scientifically proven)

beta glucans, so you can be sure that your immune system is getting the boost it

needs.* Beta glucans modulate your immune response.* Most importantly, they

don't over-stimulate your immune system like so many other products.*

And when it comes to concerns over heavy metal content, Miracle Whey™ comes

through in flying colors.

> > > > My whey powder has 8 grams of carbs

> > >

> > > Mine has ZERO... if yours has 8 per serving, then it is loaded with

CRAP...

> > >

> >

>

[Guest guest]

Chuck, you're the bomb :-)

Dee

>

> > With the ketostix, what is the goal? To be in the middle, at the high end,

or what? last night it was in the " small " to " moderate " range. This mornign,

back to " trace " .

> >

> > Liz

>

[Guest guest]

So now it is a " 500 calorie observation " instead of a definitive 500 calorie

diet.

Thought ketogenic was primarily for seizures, more specifically in children -

don't think it would benefit a child to have 500 calories a day.

If we are talking about weight loss - this is where modified Atkins is very

popular and has specific guidelines for carbohydrate calories per day.

Personally, if I were to eat no carbs, I would be eating, without a doubt, more

than 500 calories per day. But I am no bodybuilder and do not need to

manipulate my body the way they do.

> >

> > > Also, I don't understand why you are now against ketosis when earlier

> > > on you were touting it's benefits for altzheimers.

> >

> > More comprehension issues? Nowhere in the above did Duncan say he was

> > 'against ketosis'.

> >

> > sheesh

> >

>

[Guest guest]

Inulin may work for someone else though.

> >

> > The experience of many others as well as my own however is that an

anti-candida diet with inulin is indeed a weight loss diet that allows the

thyroid and adrenals to " heal " , if you like that word, or otherwise recover

normal function. There really isn't much more to it and the reliability of the

approach speaks for itself.

> >

>

[Guest guest]

tanstaafl,

You also do not provide much information to your posts -- they come off as

pretty much for your benefit only since they are often loaded with barbs and

wires. --meaning you are the authoritarian and how could anyone's beliefs,

customs, ways matter.

Looking back how many can say their favorite teacher was a

short/sweet/succinct/direct-to-the-point kind of guy?

You were rude to lizz7711 as you often are.

I often wish you never came to this group.

I have learned so much from this forum but I think of unsubscribing all the time

when having to filter through the nastiness.

My apologies to the group for being a little rude myself right now

elaine

Coconut Oil , Tanstaafl <tanstaafl@...> wrote:

>

> On 2011-09-15 11:06 AM, lizz7711 <lizz7711@...> wrote:

> > LOL, lighten up : )

>

> I'm very light... in fact I'm almost floating I'm so light...

>

> Sorry, that's just how I write (don't expend unnecessary energy trying

> to sugar coat or otherwise water anything I say down. I'm a

> short/sweet/succinct/direct-to-the-point kind of guy, always have been,

> always will be. Some people can't handle it, and to them all I can say

> is 'sorry, you can just ignore me, or learn how to use your mail client

> to filter out my messages...

>

[Guest guest]

I think someone owes Dee an apology.............................

> > it seems to me that what Dee is saying is that you can restrict carbs

> > and eat high protein and high fat and consume way more than 500 calories

> > per day. Whey, eggs,meat, coconut oil,cheese and bunches of lettuce and

> > greens can all add up to a couple thousand calories if you eat enough of

> > it. Isn't that true? That seems to me to be what she is

> > advocating...ketogenic (high protein high fat low carb), but not calorie

> > restricted...isn't this possible?

>

> After doing some more research I'd have to agree with you on this one...

>

> I had really never heard of 'the ketogenic diet' before this thread, but

> yes, it is mostly about severely restricting the carbs.

>

> But, everything I've read says you also want to restrict calories as

> well, but I've seen very few references to restricting it TO ONLY 500

> calories per day, and a lot of references to restricting it BY AS MUCH

> AS 500 calories - meaning, reducing your NORMAL daily calorie intake by

> about 500 calories (so, if you normally eat 2000 calories, reduce it to

> 1500), while staying as close to ZERO carbs as possible for a short

> time, then slowly reintroducing SOME carbs over some period of time.

> Mostly it seems to depend on the current state of health of the person -

> ie, how overweight they are, and any other health problems they may have.

>

[Guest guest]

Thanks Chuck. I'm so excited...just tested the ketones and it's in the small to

moderate range, somewhere in between those two!

Still, don't think i've lost a pound yet!

>

> > With the ketostix, what is the goal? To be in the middle, at the high end,

or what? last night it was in the " small " to " moderate " range. This mornign,

back to " trace " .

> >

> > Liz

>

[Guest guest]

Thanks Elaine, but I wouldn't expect an apology from either T or Duncan. At

least not until hell freezes over :-). I will, however, apologize for my

outburst regarding inulin. I was at my wit's end at that point over Duncan's

convoluted insistence on the 500 calorie restriction for ketosis - then throwing

inulin into the mix (for the millionth time) was just the last straw.

Yes, I'm sure it works for some - and if it does then (as Duncan likes to say)

it's all good :-)

Best,

Dee

-- In Coconut Oil , " elaine1231 " <elaine1231@...>

wrote:

>

> I think someone owes Dee an apology.............................

>

>

> > > it seems to me that what Dee is saying is that you can restrict carbs

> > > and eat high protein and high fat and consume way more than 500 calories

> > > per day. Whey, eggs,meat, coconut oil,cheese and bunches of lettuce and

> > > greens can all add up to a couple thousand calories if you eat enough of

> > > it. Isn't that true? That seems to me to be what she is

> > > advocating...ketogenic (high protein high fat low carb), but not calorie

> > > restricted...isn't this possible?

> >

> > After doing some more research I'd have to agree with you on this one...

> >

> > I had really never heard of 'the ketogenic diet' before this thread, but

> > yes, it is mostly about severely restricting the carbs.

> >

> > But, everything I've read says you also want to restrict calories as

> > well, but I've seen very few references to restricting it TO ONLY 500

> > calories per day, and a lot of references to restricting it BY AS MUCH

> > AS 500 calories - meaning, reducing your NORMAL daily calorie intake by

> > about 500 calories (so, if you normally eat 2000 calories, reduce it to

> > 1500), while staying as close to ZERO carbs as possible for a short

> > time, then slowly reintroducing SOME carbs over some period of time.

> > Mostly it seems to depend on the current state of health of the person -

> > ie, how overweight they are, and any other health problems they may have.

> >

>

[Guest guest]

Using prebiotics to change bowel ecology for the better is very reliable and has

been in medical practice for 5,000 years in China, and 3,000 years in Greece.

Dee used some for a period and it

grew bifidobcateria in her gut like it's supposed to; it has never been shown

not to despite intensive research to examine this attribute, so I believe the

research.

all good,

Duncan

>

>

> Inulin may work for someone else though.

>

>

[Guest guest]

You will produce ketones also without inducing ketosis if you eat MCT oil, which

is not stored and yields ketones as it burns. In this case you could be eating

enough carbs to not lose weight but the ketostix would indeed show more ketones.

all good,

Duncan

> >

> > > With the ketostix, what is the goal? To be in the middle, at the high end,

or what? last night it was in the " small " to " moderate " range. This mornign,

back to " trace " .

> > >

> > > Liz

> >

>

[Guest guest]

Do you eat that in your food?...or capsules?

And is there a brand that you recommend?

Thanks,

D

________________________________

From: Duncan Crow <duncancrow@...>

Coconut Oil

Sent: Saturday, September 17, 2011 12:01 PM

Subject: Re: New to group - weight gain on CO

 

You will produce ketones also without inducing ketosis if you eat MCT oil, which

is not stored and yields ketones as it burns. In this case you could be eating

enough carbs to not lose weight but the ketostix would indeed show more ketones.

all good,

Duncan

> >

> > > With the ketostix, what is the goal? To be in the middle, at the high end,

or what? last night it was in the " small " to " moderate " range. This mornign,

back to " trace " .

> > >

> > > Liz

> >

>

[Guest guest]

good to know. so far though, i'm not eating MCT oil, but maybe 1 -2 tsp coc.oil

per day only.

> > >

> > > > With the ketostix, what is the goal? To be in the middle, at the high

end, or what? last night it was in the " small " to " moderate " range. This

mornign, back to " trace " .

> > > >

> > > > Liz

> > >

> >

>

[Guest guest]

Well, Dee, here's another PH.D.'s work with 400-500 ketogenic diets.

<http://www.carbwire.com/2009/11/04/a-400-500-calorie-ketogenic-diet-will-make-y\

ou-metabolically-healthy-boston-college-researcher-says>

This is a brain tumour-reducing approach as opposed to a layperson doing some

dietary dabbling though, so I don't know how it will apply to Dee. I'm sure I'd

go into ketosis and start losing weight if I withheld any intake at all so I

prefer to just add the MCT oil.

Of course the inulin/prebiotic science is well documented so there can't be much

of a question as to its validity. Dee squawks, then apologises; it's a pattern.

all good,

Duncan

>

> Thanks Elaine, but I wouldn't expect an apology from either T or Duncan. At

least not until hell freezes over :-). I will, however, apologize for my

outburst regarding inulin. I was at my wit's end at that point over Duncan's

convoluted insistence on the 500 calorie restriction for ketosis - then throwing

inulin into the mix (for the millionth time) was just the last straw.

>

> Yes, I'm sure it works for some - and if it does then (as Duncan likes to say)

it's all good :-)

[Guest guest]

I usually take Now Foods' MCT oil in my whey shake but it's fine off the spoon.

I also put it on boneless chicken breast on the grill; it helps hold the spices

on and some group members have puit it on salad. It feels like oil but the

body interprets it as food even on a large swallow of it. It tastes kinda like

freshly boiled mash, or malt, or kinda " branny " . Very light flavour.

all good,

Duncan

> > >

> > > > With the ketostix, what is the goal? To be in the middle, at the high

end, or what? last night it was in the " small " to " moderate " range. This

mornign, back to " trace " .

> > > >

> > > > Liz

> > >

> >

>

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

You can still do a bonafide ketogenic diet w/ way more than 500 calories

Come on Duncan, surely you can admit that's true, and that's all that Dee was

saying. I can be objective here, I don't have any baggage of having been on

this board awhile and getting my feelings hurt or whatever, lol.

peace and hugs everyone : )

Liz

> >

> > Thanks Elaine, but I wouldn't expect an apology from either T or Duncan. At

least not until hell freezes over :-). I will, however, apologize for my

outburst regarding inulin. I was at my wit's end at that point over Duncan's

convoluted insistence on the 500 calorie restriction for ketosis - then throwing

inulin into the mix (for the millionth time) was just the last straw.

> >

> > Yes, I'm sure it works for some - and if it does then (as Duncan likes to

say) it's all good :-)

>