Re: New to group - weight gain on CO

[Guest guest]

MCT oils are not stored but burned, and burning them produces ketones. So, the

12% capric and caprylic acid oil in coconut oil will color a ketone test stick a

bit even if you haven't forced your body into ketosis. Perhaps that observation

will be useful to Dee as well.

all good,

Duncan

> >

> > You will produce ketones also without inducing ketosis if you eat MCT oil,

which is not stored and yields ketones as it burns. In this case you could be

eating enough carbs to not lose weight but the ketostix would indeed show more

ketones.

> >

> > all good,

> >

> > Duncan

> >

[Guest guest]

I've supported my observation that doctors, body builders and PhD's know about a

500-calorie ketogenic diet, that's all.

Dee supported her own opinion that she she became " ketogenic " , solely with her

keto-stick reading, which gives a reading of burning fat in the diet in addition

to any burned from one's fat stores. I've disagreed with Dee many times, and

pointing out a confounding factor in her work is fine with me. I'm sure I have

ketones in my pee too and I'm not on a ketogenic diet.

One might be able to do a ketogenic diet based on more than 500 calories, sure,

however, Dee didn't prove it on herself and I can't use her flawed experiment as

data. We do indeed have data on forcing ketosis in three days using a " no-carb "

approach.

As usual, everyone does what they want based on their own opinions, or they

verify those opinions against those of others' and the research. The research I

saw did not exclude higher-carb ketogenic diets, but that was not the focus.

all good,

Duncan

>

> You can still do a bonafide ketogenic diet w/ way more than 500 calories

Come on Duncan, surely you can admit that's true, and that's all that Dee was

saying. I can be objective here, I don't have any baggage of having been on

this board awhile and getting my feelings hurt or whatever, lol.

>

> peace and hugs everyone : )

>

> Liz

>

[Guest guest]

Duncan,

Regarding the inulin, I think the problem was that there wasn't anything wrong

with my " ecology " to begin with. What I was suffering with was diverticulosis

(small protruding sacks in the colon) plus occasional bile dumping after gall

bladder removal. Gut dysbiosis, on the other hand, is related to Candida and/or

bacterial overgrowth (which I didn't have); therefore, when I took the inulin

(an entire bottle) all it did was give me diarrhea. And I'm not the only one.

Several others on this list reported the same results, though in your usual

dominating manner you managed to shut them up.

So yes it works for some - but not all.

Dee

> >

> >

> > Inulin may work for someone else though.

> >

> >

>

[Guest guest]

I have cooked with it, both frying and roasting, and it seems to work just

fine... Used it in salad dressing and ate it off the spoon.

C.

________________________________

From: Duncan Crow <duncancrow@...>

Coconut Oil

Sent: Sat, September 17, 2011 12:25:57 PM

Subject: Re: New to group - weight gain on CO

I usually take Now Foods' MCT oil in my whey shake but it's fine off the spoon.

I also put it on boneless chicken breast on the grill; it helps hold the spices

on and some group members have puit it on salad. It feels like oil but the

body interprets it as food even on a large swallow of it. It tastes kinda like

freshly boiled mash, or malt, or kinda " branny " . Very light flavour.

all good,

Duncan

> > >

> > > > With the ketostix, what is the goal? To be in the middle, at the high

>end, or what? last night it was in the " small " to " moderate " range. This

>mornign, back to " trace " .

> > > >

> > > > Liz

> > >

> >

>

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Duncan,

I refer you again to your own message #37522 that you titled " 2 diets under 500

calories " . The only problem there was that only ONE of the diets was under 500

calories (designated as the low-glycemic group). The other diet (designated as

the " ketogenic diet " which restricted carb intake to 20gr. but WITH NO LIMIT ON

CALORIES. The outcome - quote:

" Although both diets produced substantial improvements in patients, the

ketogenic

diet was clearly more effective. "

Hmmmm. And yet you just keep on accusing me of problems with reading

comprehension.

Dee

> >

> > You can still do a bonafide ketogenic diet w/ way more than 500 calories

Come on Duncan, surely you can admit that's true, and that's all that Dee was

saying. I can be objective here, I don't have any baggage of having been on

this board awhile and getting my feelings hurt or whatever, lol.

> >

> > peace and hugs everyone : )

> >

> > Liz

> >

>

[Guest guest]

I seem to recall your saying that you were also hoping to lose weight on it

. So how much weight have you lost so far?

Dee

> > > >

> > > > > With the ketostix, what is the goal? To be in the middle, at the high

> >end, or what? last night it was in the " small " to " moderate " range. This

> >mornign, back to " trace " .

> > > > >

> > > > > Liz

> > > >

> > >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

[Guest guest]

Ok, so in order to know if i'm eating low enough carbs to cause ketosis, I

should cut out the CO for a couple days...i'll try it, just to know.

There would not be ketones though, unless either the body is burning fat or

becuase you've eaten CO or MCT oil, right?

> > >

> > > You will produce ketones also without inducing ketosis if you eat MCT oil,

which is not stored and yields ketones as it burns. In this case you could be

eating enough carbs to not lose weight but the ketostix would indeed show more

ketones.

> > >

> > > all good,

> > >

> > > Duncan

> > >

>

[Guest guest]

Quite possibly there was nothing wrong with your bowel ecology when you started

the diet therapy, Dee, but yes, diverticulosis and diverticulitis are caused by

bowel irritants, of which dysbiois is the leading source.

" Since colonic diverticula are rare in underdeveloped nations, it has been

postulated that the formation may be due at least in part to highly refined

western diets, which generally lack in dietary fiber or roughage. " :

http://articles.directorym.com/Diverticular_Disease_DC-r852916-DC.html

Dietary fiber contains inulin, and in the underdeveloped countries people use

more traditional food sources, many or most of the plants are higher in inulin

than modern fare.

So, your disease of diverticulosis is in the same group of low-fiber diseases as

candidiasis, IBS, colitis and Crohn's disease, all of which are associated with

dysbiosis as a causative or aggravating factor in a large majority.

I'd suggest that you may benefit by a closer look at the research, which

supports the use of inulin, inulin foods, and more generally, " fiber " . Inulin is

the largest soluble component of dietary fiber.

all good,

Duncan

>

> Duncan,

>

> Regarding the inulin, I think the problem was that there wasn't anything wrong

with my " ecology " to begin with. What I was suffering with was diverticulosis

(small protruding sacks in the colon) plus occasional bile dumping after gall

bladder removal. Gut dysbiosis, on the other hand, is related to Candida and/or

bacterial overgrowth (which I didn't have); therefore, when I took the inulin

(an entire bottle) all it did was give me diarrhea. And I'm not the only one.

Several others on this list reported the same results, though in your usual

dominating manner you managed to shut them up.

>

> So yes it works for some - but not all.

>

> Dee

>

[Guest guest]

Dee, I sent in another one this AM too ..point is a 500 calorie diet is known

and often used to induce ketosis.

Fasting is bad and I don't support it; among other things it reduces IGF-1, the

most important direct growth factor you need to recover with.

" Fasting inhibits growth hormone receptor production. Fasting also reduces

production of IGF Binding Proteins ...Hypoglycemia or low insulin levels can

reduce IGF Binding Proteins other than IGFBP3. This can reduce the half-life of

IGF-1, lowering blood levels. Stress (either internal or external) increases

norepinephrine signaling (the primary stress signal) and/or histamine signaling

(another stress signal). These can increase inflammatory cytokine production

which decrease IGF-1. "

Diverticulitis and dysbiosis are stressors.

all good,

Duncan

>

[Guest guest]

Duncan,

I suggest you buy some ketostiks and test it on yourself before coming out with

these overly confident statements. Unless you're taking the large amounts that

Dr. Newport gives her husband, I doubt you'll be in ketosis. At the amount I

take I am not - unless I restrict carbs more severely. I have the ketostiks - do

you? So if you, or , or anyone else who is taking MCT oil tests themselves

and tells me they are in ketosis WITHOUT SEVERELY LIMITING CARBS - then THAT

will be a useful observation :-)

Dee

In Coconut Oil , " Duncan Crow " <duncancrow@...>

wrote:

>

> MCT oils are not stored but burned, and burning them produces ketones. So, the

12% capric and caprylic acid oil in coconut oil will color a ketone test stick a

bit even if you haven't forced your body into ketosis. Perhaps that observation

will be useful to Dee as well.

>

> all good,

>

> Duncan

>

[Guest guest]

Duncan,

I am doing VERY WELL on fiber - just not on inulin, thank you.

Dee

>

[Guest guest]

That would be a good observation to have.

I'm willing to also be a guinea pig for this, since i'm right in the middle of

doing it. The past 3 days, I have had maybe a total of 2 teaspoons of CO each

day. For the past two nights, i've had the ketostick show that I have " small "

to " moderate " ketones. This morning before breakfast it was negative. A couple

hours afer breakfast, where I did have 1 tsp CO plus cooked some greens in CO,

it was again in the " small to moderate' range.

For the next two days i won't have any coc. oil and we'll see what happens. I'm

having very low carbs...but probably more than the 20g/day that they say leads

to ketosis...maybe around 35-40, not really sure. But i also know that i'm

eating more than 500 cal. I'm not counting, but i'd guesss it's in the 1200-1500

range. Then after a few days, i do plan on buying some MCT oil, so i'll see

if/how the reading changes.

Maybe I have a fatty acid oxidaton disorder, who knows?

> >

> > MCT oils are not stored but burned, and burning them produces ketones. So,

the 12% capric and caprylic acid oil in coconut oil will color a ketone test

stick a bit even if you haven't forced your body into ketosis. Perhaps that

observation will be useful to Dee as well.

> >

> > all good,

> >

> > Duncan

> >

>

[Guest guest]

Duncan, can you tell me who here is (or ever was) recommending a 500 calorie

diet? Certainly not moi.

Dee

>

> Dee, I sent in another one this AM too ..point is a 500 calorie diet is

known and often used to induce ketosis.

>

> Fasting is bad and I don't support it; among other things it reduces IGF-1,

the most important direct growth factor you need to recover with.

>

>

[Guest guest]

Hi Liz,

Not sure you would want to eliminate fats entirely. Some fat IS necessary for

weight loss and you aren't really using that much. Let's see what Chuck might

have to say about this.

I think this experiment needs someone who is not on a low carb diet but taking

MCT oil in moderate amounts. Not sure what that would be but probably 2 or 3

TBS.

Also, hang in there! You're doing great so far but you have to be patient. It

always takes longer for someone with a thyroid condition to lose weight but if

you just keep at it you will. It always takes me a long time, which is why I now

try not to gain it back :-)

Perhaps it's best not to obsess too much about the readings. Maybe once a week

would be better. Weigh yourself when you start to feel lighter or your clothes

start to feel looser. The longer your body has been in sugar burning mode the

longer it takes to adjust. Give it time.

Best,

Dee

> > >

> > > MCT oils are not stored but burned, and burning them produces ketones. So,

the 12% capric and caprylic acid oil in coconut oil will color a ketone test

stick a bit even if you haven't forced your body into ketosis. Perhaps that

observation will be useful to Dee as well.

> > >

> > > all good,

> > >

> > > Duncan

> > >

> >

>

[Guest guest]

Thanks Dee

I think i'll get enough fats by eating eggs cooked in butter or olive oil,

sardines or salmon w/ Mayo, nuts and seeds, meat, sugarless peanut butter,

avocados, some goat yogurt and also some goat cheese (not too much). Is that

enough? Today i'm feeling kind of hungry and very sleepy, but otherwise I don't

feel bad at all. And it's great b/c I'm forced to eat things like PB on celery,

sardines w/ cucumber, pea shoots and green pepper w/ tiny pieces of cheese, and

hazelnuts...this has been my diet today, except for a smoothie this am w/ green

powder and whey and 1/4 c. rasperries, and a whey shake at lunch time. Had some

swiss chard and garlic/onion sauteed in butter and CO this afternoon too...yum,

love that stuff. I only felt a little deprived when my daughter made GF

pancakes this morning! I ate about 2 tiny bites just to taste . Soon i'm

going to go for a walk in the woods..it's a beautiful day here in Michigan.

Liz

> > > >

> > > > MCT oils are not stored but burned, and burning them produces ketones.

So, the 12% capric and caprylic acid oil in coconut oil will color a ketone test

stick a bit even if you haven't forced your body into ketosis. Perhaps that

observation will be useful to Dee as well.

> > > >

> > > > all good,

> > > >

> > > > Duncan

> > > >

> > >

> >

>

[Guest guest]

Not a pound... another little problem I have... but at least I am in a holding

pattern, a first for me.

________________________________

From: Dolores <dgk@...>

Coconut Oil

Sent: Sat, September 17, 2011 2:29:36 PM

Subject: Re: New to group - weight gain on CO

I seem to recall your saying that you were also hoping to lose weight on it

. So how much weight have you lost so far?

Dee

> > > >

> > > > > With the ketostix, what is the goal? To be in the middle, at the high

> >end, or what? last night it was in the " small " to " moderate " range. This

> >mornign, back to " trace " .

> > > > >

> > > > > Liz

> > > >

> > >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

[Guest guest]

I have some keto sticks... I am not on a low carb diet.. so I will try to

remember to test tommorrow. Does it have to be MCT oil only or is a mix of

VCO/MCT oil ok?

________________________________

From: Dolores <dgk@...>

Coconut Oil

Sent: Sat, September 17, 2011 4:11:45 PM

Subject: Re: New to group - weight gain on CO

Hi Liz,

Not sure you would want to eliminate fats entirely. Some fat IS necessary for

weight loss and you aren't really using that much. Let's see what Chuck might

have to say about this.

I think this experiment needs someone who is not on a low carb diet but taking

MCT oil in moderate amounts. Not sure what that would be but probably 2 or 3

TBS.

Also, hang in there! You're doing great so far but you have to be patient. It

always takes longer for someone with a thyroid condition to lose weight but if

you just keep at it you will. It always takes me a long time, which is why I now

try not to gain it back :-)

Perhaps it's best not to obsess too much about the readings. Maybe once a week

would be better. Weigh yourself when you start to feel lighter or your clothes

start to feel looser. The longer your body has been in sugar burning mode the

longer it takes to adjust. Give it time.

Best,

Dee

> > >

> > > MCT oils are not stored but burned, and burning them produces ketones. So,

>the 12% capric and caprylic acid oil in coconut oil will color a ketone test

>stick a bit even if you haven't forced your body into ketosis. Perhaps that

>observation will be useful to Dee as well.

> > >

> > > all good,

> > >

> > > Duncan

> > >

> >

>

[Guest guest]

Sure, a mix is fine. Just let us know how much of each you are taking.

Thanks,

Dee

> > > >

> > > > MCT oils are not stored but burned, and burning them produces ketones.

So,

> >the 12% capric and caprylic acid oil in coconut oil will color a ketone test

> >stick a bit even if you haven't forced your body into ketosis. Perhaps that

> >observation will be useful to Dee as well.

> > > >

> > > > all good,

> > > >

> > > > Duncan

> > > >

> > >

> >

>

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Duncan,

Maybe inulin wasn't right for Dee. Without a stool test we do not know that it

grew bifido in her gut. Just wanted to say that and definitely do not want to

start a debate about Dee's use of inulin.

I appreciate research as well, but I have to appreciate that everyone's response

may be different as well.

I actually bought some from you Duncan around ten years ago.

I have used NOW's brand -- very sweet, too sweet - produced lots of gas. The

one you packaged wasn't sweet. I think I remember it referenced as long chain.

Do you know any suppliers of long chain inulin?

thanks

elaine

> >

> >

> > Inulin may work for someone else though.

> >

> >

>

[Guest guest]

Duncan,

That's great that you found an article/s that implements 500 calories with a

ketogenic diet but............. 500 calories for the ketogenic diet is not the

standard. A couple of people challenged Dee on that and some in a not so nice

way.

And as for apologizing ....... - at least she " owns up "

She really didn't have to apologize for her comment regarding inulin if it truly

didn't work for her.

And I have to commend her for debating, often alone, often with valid points

when noone else does, including myself.

thanks

elaine

> >

> > Thanks Elaine, but I wouldn't expect an apology from either T or Duncan. At

least not until hell freezes over :-). I will, however, apologize for my

outburst regarding inulin. I was at my wit's end at that point over Duncan's

convoluted insistence on the 500 calorie restriction for ketosis - then throwing

inulin into the mix (for the millionth time) was just the last straw.

> >

> > Yes, I'm sure it works for some - and if it does then (as Duncan likes to

say) it's all good :-)

>

[Guest guest]

Dee, I agree that it would be a good idea to see how sensitive the keto sticks

are with regard to changes in one's dietary oil.

Because dietary MCT oil is said to burn whether your body is otherwise triggered

into burning mainly fats or not, the brain is satisfied with the large amount of

ketones produced by MCT oil. I think this ketone focus started as a brain food

discussion and successful application of MCT oil, and MCT oil is accepted to

addresses the brain ketones.

At a tbsp twice daily there is therapeutic value so some will be also in the

urine to read on a keto stick. I think 2 tbsp MCT oil is a lot if MCT oil was

what Newport's experiment hinged on, and because coconut oil appears to confer

ketone benefit on its own in some people, implying therapeutic value, most

likely that will show up on the stick too. The answer is dose-related.

In other words, if the person does not exude ketones from using MCT oil even

without limiting carbs, it would show it's not true that it is preferentially

burned rather than stored, and it also should appear in our body fat. We know

from other work that MCT oil isn't in our body fat but lauric acid can be, so

it's burned and there are ketone residues in the urine.

all good,

Duncan

>

> Duncan,

>

> I suggest you buy some ketostiks and test it on yourself before coming out

with these overly confident statements. Unless you're taking the large amounts

that Dr. Newport gives her husband, I doubt you'll be in ketosis. At the amount

I take I am not - unless I restrict carbs more severely. I have the ketostiks -

do you? So if you, or , or anyone else who is taking MCT oil tests

themselves and tells me they are in ketosis WITHOUT SEVERELY LIMITING CARBS -

then THAT will be a useful observation :-)

>

> Dee

>

[Guest guest]

Thanks Liz, and sorry I just posted redundantly to answer Dee's question on

that; glad you're/someone is on it

> > >

> > > MCT oils are not stored but burned, and burning them produces ketones. So,

the 12% capric and caprylic acid oil in coconut oil will color a ketone test

stick a bit even if you haven't forced your body into ketosis.

[Guest guest]

Nobody recommended it and few here would want a 500 calorie diet for long but it

is useful for a few days to get one quickly into ketosis and then lighten it up

a bit and still lose pounds of fat per week. Most of us just want ketones to be

a bit higher, so the MCT oil it is.

all good,

Duncan

> >

> > Dee, I sent in another one this AM too ..point is a 500 calorie diet is

known and often used to induce ketosis.

> >

> > Fasting is bad and I don't support it; among other things it reduces IGF-1,

the most important direct growth factor you need to recover with.

> >

> >

>

[Guest guest]

Duncan,

The message you replied to was cut off so I am confused how we got on to

fasting.

The fasting your quote refers to is likely for extreme fasts, no? I thought

intermittent fasting was a IGF-1 increaser.

And again I do not agree 500 calories is the standard for a ketogenic diet.

elaine

> >

>

[Guest guest]

Sorry Elaine, I don't know of a retail source of long-chain inulin today. In the

USA you might by the sack but in Canada they wanted to sell it by the pallet and

I didn't want to be a packaging factory.

all good,

Duncan

> > >

> > >

> > > Inulin may work for someone else though.

> > >

> > >

> >

>