Re: Choice of Fats

[Guest guest]

Thanks ; it seems your revved up feeling gained by using MCT oil may be

exactly the metabolic enhancement that many of us are looking for. Most of the

research was done on MCT oil, not whole coocnut oil, because the weight of the

beneficial effects seems to be derived from those fats.

I don't follow Budwig's 50-year old argument on flax oil's superiority; it's not

supported by research, but certainly the Budwig diet revision accomodates using

the Budwig fats as well as whey and cod liver oil (or small fish). I've also

read enough about milk fat that I want to keep it as my major oil.

Keep plugging , the fats arguments aren't that complex.

all good,

Duncan

>

> I have all but thrown my arms in the air in frustration trying to get a clear

picture of the various fats with regard to their effect on health, on cancer, on

neurological efficiency etc. There are so many studies that contradict each

others findings.

>

> I am amazed at how much motivation from financial affiliation seems to be able

to bias data from studies.

>

> I have decided to continue to base my choice of fats on their history of long

term use for human health and healing. I chose flax and coconut oil. I eat small

fish twice a week.

>

> While MCT oil was a generally positive experience for me, I have 2

reservations.

> 1. I don't like the feeling of my car's engine turning at 5000 rpm when I am

in a 30 mph zone. Similarly, MCT gives me that revved up feeling that is

acceptable before a workout but not for normal everyday activities.

> 2. It hasn't been proven good for human health over a long period of time as

is the case of VCO and Flax for example.

>

> My favorite source of lipid information, Dr Budwig, highly recommended a 2

for 1 ratio of coconut oil to flax oil combined together: she called it oleolux

and its included in many of her recipes in liberal amounts.

> In addition, I use a (very) little butter ghee to add flavor to some dishes.

>

> It would be interesting to hear what fats you have chosen and why.

>

[Guest guest]

On 2011-03-30 1:21 PM, wrote:

> I have decided to continue to base my choice of fats on their history of

> long term use for human health and healing. I chose flax and coconut oil.

I'm curious... what people(s) have historically used flax oil as a food?

[Guest guest]

Duncan, The fats arguments are not complex, I agree, however studies are

manifestly, in many cases, contradictory.

Here is a small study done using flax oil, however its very incomplete and many

factors were not taken into consideration.

http://www.lipidworld.com/content/8/1/54

I recognize that MCT oil has undeniable effects. Dr Newport has been

experimenting with it: http://coconutketones.com/

However, I generally prefer whole foods when such is possible. Perhaps MCT oil

is a viable long term solution for better health. I would go slow tho, simply

because its still relatively new. Many solutions looked promising in the short

term but did not pan out over the long term. That said, as a metabolic

enhancement I believe it has very interesting potential.

In addition, I know there has been discussion regarding lauric acid in this

forum. I think it has a synergistic effect when consumed within a whole food

context as in VCO or breast milk. Some substances are benefit producing as part

of a symbiosis of elements but taken in isolation show less than optimal

results.

> >

> > I have all but thrown my arms in the air in frustration trying to get a

clear picture of the various fats with regard to their effect on health, on

cancer, on neurological efficiency etc. There are so many studies that

contradict each others findings.

> >

> > I am amazed at how much motivation from financial affiliation seems to be

able to bias data from studies.

> >

> > I have decided to continue to base my choice of fats on their history of

long term use for human health and healing. I chose flax and coconut oil. I eat

small fish twice a week.

> >

> > While MCT oil was a generally positive experience for me, I have 2

reservations.

> > 1. I don't like the feeling of my car's engine turning at 5000 rpm when I am

in a 30 mph zone. Similarly, MCT gives me that revved up feeling that is

acceptable before a workout but not for normal everyday activities.

> > 2. It hasn't been proven good for human health over a long period of time as

is the case of VCO and Flax for example.

> >

> > My favorite source of lipid information, Dr Budwig, highly recommended a 2

for 1 ratio of coconut oil to flax oil combined together: she called it oleolux

and its included in many of her recipes in liberal amounts.

> > In addition, I use a (very) little butter ghee to add flavor to some dishes.

> >

> > It would be interesting to hear what fats you have chosen and why.

> >

>

[Guest guest]

Back in USSR (I was born in Ukraine) flax oil was considered as very good oil

paint base and nobody

(to my knowledge!) would use it as a food voluntary!

My $0.02 ;-)

 

________________________________

From: Tanstaafl <tanstaafl@...>

Coconut Oil

Sent: Wed, March 30, 2011 10:44:16 AM

Subject: Re: Choice of Fats

 

On 2011-03-30 1:21 PM, wrote:

> I have decided to continue to base my choice of fats on their history of

> long term use for human health and healing. I chose flax and coconut oil.

I'm curious... what people(s) have historically used flax oil as a food?

[Guest guest]

It is known as the first crop to have been domesticated by man. Hippocrates (

500 BC ) is the first known user of flax for medicinal purposes.

Click on any date in this timeline to get an overview.

http://www.ag.ndsu.edu/agnic/flax/flax%20timeline/flax%20timeline.htm

> > I have decided to continue to base my choice of fats on their history of

> > long term use for human health and healing. I chose flax and coconut oil.

>

> I'm curious... what people(s) have historically used flax oil as a food?

>

[Guest guest]

Pasha, Its a choice thats not based on taste.

I would much rather have a butter cookie than a flax cookie.

Flax is not about taste, at least not for me it isn't. Although apparently

some chefs can do wonders with flax.

> > I have decided to continue to base my choice of fats on their history of

> > long term use for human health and healing. I chose flax and coconut oil.

>

> I'm curious... what people(s) have historically used flax oil as a food?

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

On 2011-03-30 2:21 PM, wrote:

> Tanstaafl <tanstaafl@...> wrote:

>> On 2011-03-30 1:21 PM, wrote:

>>> I have decided to continue to base my choice of fats on their history of

>>> long term use for human health and healing. I chose flax and coconut

>>> oil.

>> I'm curious... what people(s) have historically used flax oil as a food?

> It is known as the first crop to have been domesticated by man.

> Hippocrates ( 500 BC ) is the first known user of flax for medicinal

> purposes.

I said " ... as a FOOD. "

And there are vastly superior medicines...

[Guest guest]

Since 1000 BC its been used as a food...starting in Greece and Jordan. Possibly

in Egypt and other areas prior to that. If you click on dates you get summarized

info from the timeline.

> >>> I have decided to continue to base my choice of fats on their history of

> >>> long term use for human health and healing. I chose flax and coconut

> >>> oil.

>

> >> I'm curious... what people(s) have historically used flax oil as a food?

>

> > It is known as the first crop to have been domesticated by man.

> > Hippocrates ( 500 BC ) is the first known user of flax for medicinal

> > purposes.

>

> I said " ... as a FOOD. "

>

> And there are vastly superior medicines...

>

[Guest guest]

Hi ,

I wholeheartedly support your idea of basing your choice of fats on their

history of long term use. for that reason I use coconut oil for cooking, take a

TBS in my morning coffee, and put a bit of coconut milk in my smoothie. For

salads and some recipes I use Extra Virgin Olive Oil. I also use grass-fed

butter, though not liberally. I take no more than 1 tsp of Carlson's Cod Liver

Oil and use a small can of Wild Red Salmon once a week. I don't use flax, but

instead use soaked Chia Seeds which have quite similar properties to flax but

don't turn rancid as flax oil does so easily. Chia seeds have a long history.

Here is just one source of info on Chia Seeds:

http://www.healthyfoodforhealthyliving.com/public/183.cfm

But not to worry. You're definitely on the right track.

All the Best,

Dee

>

> I have all but thrown my arms in the air in frustration trying to get a clear

picture of the various fats with regard to their effect on health, on cancer, on

neurological efficiency etc. There are so many studies that contradict each

others findings.

>

> I am amazed at how much motivation from financial affiliation seems to be able

to bias data from studies.

>

> I have decided to continue to base my choice of fats on their history of long

term use for human health and healing. I chose flax and coconut oil. I eat small

fish twice a week.

>

> While MCT oil was a generally positive experience for me, I have 2

reservations.

> 1. I don't like the feeling of my car's engine turning at 5000 rpm when I am

in a 30 mph zone. Similarly, MCT gives me that revved up feeling that is

acceptable before a workout but not for normal everyday activities.

> 2. It hasn't been proven good for human health over a long period of time as

is the case of VCO and Flax for example.

>

> My favorite source of lipid information, Dr Budwig, highly recommended a 2

for 1 ratio of coconut oil to flax oil combined together: she called it oleolux

and its included in many of her recipes in liberal amounts.

> In addition, I use a (very) little butter ghee to add flavor to some dishes.

>

> It would be interesting to hear what fats you have chosen and why.

>

[Guest guest]

Yes, I used to consume animal fats and now VCO, red palm oil (both are " new " for

me and like them!),

but I believe that " bottled " oils aren't good at long run:

http://raypeat.com/articles/nutrition/oils-in-context.shtml

 

And I like butter cookies too, but no grains for me - diabetes: 8-(

________________________________

From: <r_long@...>

Coconut Oil

Sent: Wed, March 30, 2011 11:29:41 AM

Subject: Re: Choice of Fats

 

Pasha, Its a choice thats not based on taste.

I would much rather have a butter cookie than a flax cookie.

Flax is not about taste, at least not for me it isn't. Although apparently some

chefs can do wonders with flax.

> > I have decided to continue to base my choice of fats on their history of

> > long term use for human health and healing. I chose flax and coconut oil.

>

> I'm curious... what people(s) have historically used flax oil as a food?

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Hi ,

When I investigated coconut oil in the context of ketone body formation I found

a large amount of ketone bodies are derived from butyric acid, which is a

component of butter and also made in the gut by probiotic organisms.

I know evidence of synergy can be seen some supplements, but I haven't run into

such evidence on the oils because they are fuels as opposed to being catalysts

of some biological action. I think the reason is that they are broken down for

energy by mechanisms that don't rely on each other.

If you do find evidence of syngergy of mixed oils compared to the same oils

consumed separately, please post them. I think what we're more likely to see is

an effect of metabolic increse for example with the MCT oils, supported by

adequate nutrition to make the most of and support the increased metabolic

effect. This isn't synergy but it is complementary.

all good,

Duncan

>I know there has been discussion regarding lauric acid in this forum. I think

it has a synergistic effect when consumed within a whole food context as in VCO

or breast milk. Some substances are benefit producing as part of a symbiosis of

elements but taken in isolation show less than optimal results.

[Guest guest]

Duncan,

What I am saying is that lauric acid may act synergistically within the VCO,

however if separated from the symbiosis of its surrounding substances it may not

be optimal nor perhaps would the remaining fraction perform as well as it could

than if it was untampered VCO.

I hear what you are saying about MCT oil. Even when combined with well chosen

support nutes, it may not be as good for one's overall health as VCO. Similar to

allopathic medecine which would provide a solution to a symptom with a pharma

substance that might, in fact, perform as expected, that would not rule out the

creation of an imbalance that would be less than optimal for one's health.

Mind you, I hope that MCT oil is suitable for improvement of metabolic issues

and has no undesirable side effects. I have some here that I don't use. The

stuff scares me, it makes me feel like the " six million dollar man " when in fact

I'm a fuddy dudd who has trouble finishing his workouts.

> >I know there has been discussion regarding lauric acid in this forum. I think

it has a synergistic effect when consumed within a whole food context as in VCO

or breast milk. Some substances are benefit producing as part of a symbiosis of

elements but taken in isolation show less than optimal results.

>

[Guest guest]

Dee,

You are killing two birds with one stone with chia seeds. Did you know chia

contains B-17 laetrile, supposedly good for cancer. I got a newsletter from my

supplier saying if you are taking other B-17 to consider lowering intake as chia

seeds also contain some B-17.

> >

> > I have all but thrown my arms in the air in frustration trying to get a

clear picture of the various fats with regard to their effect on health, on

cancer, on neurological efficiency etc. There are so many studies that

contradict each others findings.

> >

> > I am amazed at how much motivation from financial affiliation seems to be

able to bias data from studies.

> >

> > I have decided to continue to base my choice of fats on their history of

long term use for human health and healing. I chose flax and coconut oil. I eat

small fish twice a week.

> >

> > While MCT oil was a generally positive experience for me, I have 2

reservations.

> > 1. I don't like the feeling of my car's engine turning at 5000 rpm when I am

in a 30 mph zone. Similarly, MCT gives me that revved up feeling that is

acceptable before a workout but not for normal everyday activities.

> > 2. It hasn't been proven good for human health over a long period of time as

is the case of VCO and Flax for example.

> >

> > My favorite source of lipid information, Dr Budwig, highly recommended a 2

for 1 ratio of coconut oil to flax oil combined together: she called it oleolux

and its included in many of her recipes in liberal amounts.

> > In addition, I use a (very) little butter ghee to add flavor to some dishes.

> >

> > It would be interesting to hear what fats you have chosen and why.

> >

>

[Guest guest]

,

I experimented a while back with Chia seeds. Then I discovered Chia

seeds are very high oxalate so I stopped.

Alobar

On Wed, Mar 30, 2011 at 6:56 PM, <@...> wrote:

> Dee,

>

> You are killing two birds with one stone with chia seeds.  Did you know chia

contains B-17 laetrile, supposedly good for cancer.  I got a newsletter from my

supplier saying if you are taking other B-17 to consider lowering intake as chia

seeds also contain some B-17.

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

,

Yeah I understand the difference between synergy and optimization. It would be

nice if there was synergy, although I've seen no indication that there is. I

think synergy as in multiplication of beneficial effects probably does not apply

to the oils.

The fatty acids each have different germicidal properties on different bacterial

types though, so they work together in a manner of speaking. They require

different amounts of cholesterol or none at all; seems some fatty acids like

oleic acid can even reduce the cholesterol response to lauric acid for example.

Neither of those effects are synergy though.

The argument that it might be more beneficial to take coconut oil because of the

diversity of the fatty acids in it also can be applied to milk fat, or a blend

of the two. Milk fat is even more likely to be synergistic or add synergistic

properties, as it is made for mammals. The high-use fatty acids like oleic and

butyric for example in butter, that are missing from coconut oil, would

certainly be advantageous.

You're assuming coconut oil is balanced for people without adding anything or

taking anything away. I think it's too much different from milk fat, which is

made for mammals, to be close to optimal.

I was thinking about just adding MCT oil to my diet to fry with. That would be

about the right amount. My diet is high in milk fat, we use only a little olive

oil, and coconut cream a few times a week.

all good,

Duncan

>

> Duncan,

> What I am saying is that lauric acid may act synergistically within the VCO,

however if separated from the symbiosis of its surrounding substances it may not

be optimal nor perhaps would the remaining fraction perform as well as it could

than if it was untampered VCO.

>

> I hear what you are saying about MCT oil. Even when combined with well chosen

support nutes, it may not be as good for one's overall health as VCO. Similar to

allopathic medecine which would provide a solution to a symptom with a pharma

substance that might, in fact, perform as expected, that would not rule out the

creation of an imbalance that would be less than optimal for one's health.

>

> Mind you, I hope that MCT oil is suitable for improvement of metabolic

issues and has no undesirable side effects. I have some here that I don't use.

The stuff scares me, it makes me feel like the " six million dollar man " when in

fact I'm a fuddy dudd who has trouble finishing his workouts.

>

[Guest guest]

Hi ,

No, I had no idea about the B-17 laetrile in Chia. How interesting - thanks!

Although I don't have cancer I would think it would be a good preventive, and we

can't have too many of those.

Thanks again,

Dee

>

> Dee,

>

> You are killing two birds with one stone with chia seeds. Did you know chia

contains B-17 laetrile, supposedly good for cancer. I got a newsletter from my

supplier saying if you are taking other B-17 to consider lowering intake as chia

seeds also contain some B-17.

>

>

[Guest guest]

The revved up feeling from MCT oil is very interesting to me. Just

how much MCT Oil would one take per day?

Alobar

On Wed, Mar 30, 2011 at 12:34 PM, Duncan Crow <duncancrow@...> wrote:

> Thanks ; it seems your revved up feeling gained by using MCT oil may be

exactly the metabolic enhancement that many of us are looking for. Most of the

research was done on MCT oil, not whole coocnut oil, because the weight of the

beneficial effects seems to be derived from those fats.

>

> I don't follow Budwig's 50-year old argument on flax oil's superiority; it's

not supported by research, but certainly the Budwig diet revision accomodates

using the Budwig fats as well as whey and cod liver oil (or small fish). I've

also read enough about milk fat that I want to keep it as my major oil.

>

> Keep plugging , the fats arguments aren't that complex.

>

> all good,

>

> Duncan

>

[Guest guest]

Duncan,

I take a tsp of MCT oil now and then before exercise. The added energy helps

me to perform more exercise. I get an extra hour of sleep to help my metabolism

process the results of the increased amount of physical exertion. I also drink

additional water to help deal with the increased metabolic wastes. MCT is a game

changer: no question about it.

We are all different, and for me at least, it would have me running on

" hot " . Meaning that it would not be conducive to balance if I used more than

just a little occasionally. On the other hand, for someone who wants a metabolic

catalyst it might be just what the doctor ordered.

As of recent, I prefer to do light stir frying with coconut oil and a little

butter ghee. I really enjoy the resultant flavor. MCT oil with the butter ghee

would work, however the flavor would not have the same richness. Of course thats

a matter of personal preference.

> >

> > Duncan,

> > What I am saying is that lauric acid may act synergistically within the

VCO, however if separated from the symbiosis of its surrounding substances it

may not be optimal nor perhaps would the remaining fraction perform as well as

it could than if it was untampered VCO.

> >

> > I hear what you are saying about MCT oil. Even when combined with well

chosen support nutes, it may not be as good for one's overall health as VCO.

Similar to allopathic medecine which would provide a solution to a symptom with

a pharma substance that might, in fact, perform as expected, that would not rule

out the creation of an imbalance that would be less than optimal for one's

health.

> >

> > Mind you, I hope that MCT oil is suitable for improvement of metabolic

issues and has no undesirable side effects. I have some here that I don't use.

The stuff scares me, it makes me feel like the " six million dollar man " when in

fact I'm a fuddy dudd who has trouble finishing his workouts.

> >

>

[Guest guest]

Dr Newport MD " Dietary Guidelines as of Sept 29, 2009 " :

Start with 1 tsp taken with each meal. The goal level is 4-6 tablespoons/day

depending on the size of the person.

The full article is on this page:

http://www.coconutketones.com/ReadPrintArticles.html

The paragraph " How Much Should I Take " gives the amounts for coconut oil OR MCT

oil. Her articles describe what you can expect from the program.

---------------------

PS: That amount would have me bouncing off the walls. I hope you get favorable

results.

> > Thanks ; it seems your revved up feeling gained by using MCT oil may

be exactly the metabolic enhancement that many of us are looking for. Most of

the research was done on MCT oil, not whole coocnut oil, because the weight of

the beneficial effects seems to be derived from those fats.

> >

> > I don't follow Budwig's 50-year old argument on flax oil's superiority; it's

not supported by research, but certainly the Budwig diet revision accomodates

using the Budwig fats as well as whey and cod liver oil (or small fish). I've

also read enough about milk fat that I want to keep it as my major oil.

> >

> > Keep plugging , the fats arguments aren't that complex.

> >

> > all good,

> >

> > Duncan

> >

>

[Guest guest]

MCT? I don't know what that is.

[Guest guest]

Dee, Chia seeds sound very interesting indeed ! Thank you, I will look for more

information on them.

> >

> > I have all but thrown my arms in the air in frustration trying to get a

clear picture of the various fats with regard to their effect on health, on

cancer, on neurological efficiency etc. There are so many studies that

contradict each others findings.

> >

> > I am amazed at how much motivation from financial affiliation seems to be

able to bias data from studies.

> >

> > I have decided to continue to base my choice of fats on their history of

long term use for human health and healing. I chose flax and coconut oil. I eat

small fish twice a week.

> >

> > While MCT oil was a generally positive experience for me, I have 2

reservations.

> > 1. I don't like the feeling of my car's engine turning at 5000 rpm when I am

in a 30 mph zone. Similarly, MCT gives me that revved up feeling that is

acceptable before a workout but not for normal everyday activities.

> > 2. It hasn't been proven good for human health over a long period of time as

is the case of VCO and Flax for example.

> >

> > My favorite source of lipid information, Dr Budwig, highly recommended a 2

for 1 ratio of coconut oil to flax oil combined together: she called it oleolux

and its included in many of her recipes in liberal amounts.

> > In addition, I use a (very) little butter ghee to add flavor to some dishes.

> >

> > It would be interesting to hear what fats you have chosen and why.

> >

>

[Guest guest]

Hi Virginia,

I empathize. The current discussions regarding MCT oil can be very confusing.

MCT stands for Medium Chain Triglycerides - which refers to the molecular size

of the fatty acids. Coconut Oil is comprised predominately of Medium Chain

Triglycerides and a range of fatty acids: Lauric, Mristic, Palmitic, Capriylic,

Capric, Stearic, Caproic, Oleic, and Linoleic. Dr. Fife presents all the

information on the importance of MCT's in coconut oil on this page:

http://www.coconutresearchcenter.org/article10612.htm

The MCT oil being referred to in the discussions here however is the latest fad

in which all of the above have been removed except for the Capriylic and Capric

acids. This MCT oil is highly refined from coconut oil and therefore has no

taste. It is being touted by body building sites for it's ability to quote:

" Boost metabolism and turn your body into a mean, lean, fat burning machine " .

Yeah, well maybe. The problem with that for me, however, is that used instead of

coconut oil we are missing out on the benefits of the fatty acids that have been

removed in the refining process. To quote the same post that Duncan loves to

quote for his own purposes, here is what Bruce Fife says about the importance of

ALL the fatty acids in coconut oil:

" The individual MCFAs exert different effects on different

microorganisms. Some microorganisms that are only mildly affected by monolaurin

may be completely destroyed by caprylic acid or capric acid. Lauric acid by

itself is a very potent antimicrobial. Caproic and myistic acids and other fatty

acids in coconut oil also possess antimicrobial power, EACH WITH ITS OWN UNIQUE

ABILITY TO KILL CERTAIN ORGANISM BETTER THAN OTHER FATTY ACIDS. When they are

combined, as they are in natural coconut oil, they WORK SYNERGISTICALLY

TOGETHER,

improving their overall germ-fighting power, making it greater than any single

MCFA alone. "

All the Best,

Dee

>

> MCT? I don't know what that is.

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

The MCT oils aren't really the latest fad that Dee says they are; " MCT oil "

(capric and caprylic acids) is the subject of most of the research that coconut

oil lovers love to attribute to whole coconut oil.

The difference is that these two MCT oils are about 13.5% of coconut oil, while

the studies used 100% MCT oil.

Arguments about " coconut oil " are a lot less about MCT oils than they are about

about lauric acid, the 51% - 53% component of whole coconut oil. Big difference,

given the known varying effects of the fatty acids.

Dee empathizes, because the science is also confusing to her, but rereading the

information a few times is a real eye-opener. Turns out that even coconut oil

can be improved by blending in other fatty acids including more MCT oil and some

butter, as we're discussing this week on this list.

all good,

Duncan

>

> Hi Virginia,

>

> I empathize. The current discussions regarding MCT oil can be very confusing.