Re: Misquoting coconut studies

[Guest guest]

If you avoid studies that you can't afford to buy, Tony, your knowledge and your

comments will necessarily be lacking. I think one may be exactly what you were

looking for. Because it's pertinent to your core work and you asked for this

exact material, you should be the one to step up and buy the study; having read

it, you could make a salient comment on it.

So far the title is pretty clear, " Effect of metabolic inhibitors on lauric

acid-induced hemolysis. " Clearly these researchers were using lauric acid to

break down blood cells, while other research you dismissed showed it could be

done in a normotonic water solution that mimics blood.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/4715534

The study that used saponified oil one may or may not apply as you say, I don't

know. And I don't know that you're speaking with authority on that either

because you admittedly haven't got enough details.

all good,

Duncan

[Guest guest]

Do YOU have the details Duncan? And no you can not extrapolate from the title!

That study does appear to be the same 1973 study you referenced earlier (no

longer available) that used saponified fatty acids, not the fatty acids, PLUS it

was an in vitro study - NOT oral dosing, as you claim. And the remaining studies

you cite (also in vitro it seems) say absolutely NOTHING meaningful regarding

any negative synergic action of the fatty acids in coconut oil on hemolysis.

When you find a study showing that oral dosing of coconut oil induces hemolysis

you can let us know.

Dee

>

> If you avoid studies that you can't afford to buy, Tony, your knowledge and

your comments will necessarily be lacking. I think one may be exactly what you

were looking for. Because it's pertinent to your core work and you asked for

this exact material, you should be the one to step up and buy the study; having

read it, you could make a salient comment on it.

>

> So far the title is pretty clear, " Effect of metabolic inhibitors on lauric

acid-induced hemolysis. " Clearly these researchers were using lauric acid to

break down blood cells, while other research you dismissed showed it could be

done in a normotonic water solution that mimics blood.

> http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/4715534

>

> The study that used saponified oil one may or may not apply as you say, I

don't know. saponified fatty acids, not the fatty

acids.

And I don't know that you're speaking with authority on that either because you

admittedly haven't got enough details.

>

> all good,

>

> Duncan

>

[Guest guest]

Hi Dee; I think you misquoted the abstract and you should re-read it yourself.

There's no indication at all that the research used saponified oil. And the

study IS available and a bargain at only $37; you read that part wrong too.

Here again is the entire abstract plus a sample page from Springerlink:

<http://www.springerlink.com/content/h009675m113g2463/>

To repeat, no saponified oil was used. The " normotonic " salt solution they used

(to mimic blood) is insufficient to produce saponification.

Although I have bought studies in the past for my own career I'm reluctant to

buy a study pertinent to Tony's field of expertise; I'll leave that to Tony and

to you. I would think that someone with a vested interest in marketing a product

should have pretty much complete documentation for it anyway; it would be

written off as a marketing/office expense. I think that most offices would have

$37 in petty cash Tony?

all good,

Duncan

>

> Do YOU have the details Duncan? And no you can not extrapolate from the title!

That study does appear to be the same 1973 study you referenced earlier (no

longer available) that used saponified fatty acids, not the fatty acids, PLUS it

was an in vitro study - NOT oral dosing, as you claim. And the remaining studies

you cite (also in vitro it seems) say absolutely NOTHING meaningful regarding

any negative synergic action of the fatty acids in coconut oil on hemolysis.

When you find a study showing that oral dosing of coconut oil induces hemolysis

you can let us know.

>

> Dee

>

[Guest guest]

Duncan,

I read the abstract you quote here. There is no mention of oral dosing. The one

I was referring to in my post, however, was the third one in your previous

posting (that I identified as no longer available, as did you). So perhaps you

need to re-read what I said yourself. This is the link I was referring to and

the one I believe Tony was referring to as well in reference to saponification

of the lauric acid.

Title: Effect of metabolic inhibitors on lauric acid-induced hemolysis.

(sorry, no abstract available)

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/4715534

My conclusion still stands and no amount of obfuscation on your part is going to

change that. All of the studies you cite (also in vitro it seems) say absolutely

NOTHING meaningful regarding any negative synergic action of the fatty acids in

coconut oil on hemolysis. When you find a study showing that oral dosing of

coconut oil induces hemolysis you can let us know.

Dee

>

> Hi Dee; I think you misquoted the abstract and you should re-read it yourself.

There's no indication at all that the research used saponified oil. And the

study IS available and a bargain at only $37; you read that part wrong too.

>

> Here again is the entire abstract plus a sample page from Springerlink:

> <http://www.springerlink.com/content/h009675m113g2463/>

[Guest guest]

Dee, I think I understand that you're protesting that

1) research that duplicated blood saltiness and found out exactly how lauric

acid is absorbed through the membranes of red blood cells in addition to

discovering it to be somewhat hemolytic, and

2) the knowledge that lauric acid taken orally is absorbed into the blood so is

indeed present in that normotonic condition,

....could be a cause for concern, in absence, as you repeatedly note, of direct

in-vivo data presumably gathered from humans.

Concern is relative; there's good reason to not go too gung-ho on the lauric

acid until the amount of the hemolysis is quantified. Iron loose in the

bloodstream is a potent oxidizer that has been noted to be behind several

disorders.

I think the people who use some coconut oil and some MCT oil are further ahead;

I choose to add butter as well. This practice increases ketone formation and

necessarily reduces my lauric acid intake to about a third of what it was in

2005.

all good,

Duncan

> >

> > Hi Dee; I think you misquoted the abstract and you should re-read it

yourself. There's no indication at all that the research used saponified oil.

And the study IS available and a bargain at only $37; you read that part wrong

too.

> >

> > Here again is the entire abstract plus a sample page from Springerlink:

> > <http://www.springerlink.com/content/h009675m113g2463/>

>

[Guest guest]

No, Duncan, I am not protesting any " knowledge " . What I am protesting is:

1) Your claim that any of the studies used oral dosing (you DID claim that) and

2) that you deduced from these studies that coconut oil (because it contains

lauric acid) would cause lysing of blood cells when there is no evidence of that

in people. The human body has a number of ways of letting you know when you've

had too much of anything, so no I don't believe it is a cause for concern. And

of course too much of ANYTHING can kill you, including water.

Dee

>

> Dee, I think I understand that you're protesting that

>

> 1) research that duplicated blood saltiness and found out exactly how lauric

acid is absorbed through the membranes of red blood cells in addition to

discovering it to be somewhat hemolytic, and

>

> 2) the knowledge that lauric acid taken orally is absorbed into the blood so

is indeed present in that normotonic condition,

>

>

[Guest guest]

You elect to not care if there are consequences, and I elect to care that there

may be, based on the limited research we have. That's the only difference.

Again, a thorough investigation would quantify the hemolytic damage and other

activity, and until it's performed, a prudent avoidance of high doses of lauric

acid may be indicated by the cautious.

all good,

>

> No, Duncan, I am not protesting any " knowledge " . What I am protesting is:

>

> 1) Your claim that any of the studies used oral dosing (you DID claim that)

and

>

> 2) that you deduced from these studies that coconut oil (because it contains

lauric acid) would cause lysing of blood cells when there is no evidence of that

in people. The human body has a number of ways of letting you know when you've

had too much of anything, so no I don't believe it is a cause for concern. And

of course too much of ANYTHING can kill you, including water.

>

> Dee

>

[Guest guest]

Duncan,

That research MIGHT have relevance if one were to consume high doses of lauric

acid alone rather than coconut oil, but is there any indication that anyone is

doing that or even recommending it? And as far as coconut oil is concerned, are

you aware of Dr. Newport's dosing for her husband? According to her blog she has

been using 3 TBS. of a 50/50 mixture of VCO/MCT 3x per day with meals, plus 2

more TBS at bedtime. That would be a total of 5.5 TBS of VCO plus 5.5 TBS of MCT

per day for the past 3 years, and I'm quite sure that she keeps tabs on his

blood work as all physicians regularly do.

Dee

> >

> > No, Duncan, I am not protesting any " knowledge " . What I am protesting is:

> >

> > 1) Your claim that any of the studies used oral dosing (you DID claim that)

and

> >

> > 2) that you deduced from these studies that coconut oil (because it contains

lauric acid) would cause lysing of blood cells when there is no evidence of that

in people. The human body has a number of ways of letting you know when you've

had too much of anything, so no I don't believe it is a cause for concern. And

of course too much of ANYTHING can kill you, including water.

> >

> > Dee

> >

>