Re: Probiotic that works for me

[Guest guest]

On 2011-10-01 12:47 PM, a Wolfe <silverlady3@...> wrote:

> I have tried numerous probiotics, greek yogurt, kefir etc. all with

> very limited success

Re: kefir - was it store bought or homemade from raw milk? I agree that

the store bought ones are mostly worthless, but homemade from raw milk

works extremely well, and is extremely cheap too (once you have the

kefir grains, it is just the cost of the milk)...

[Guest guest]

I always thought Activia was a waste of money - probiotics and sugar fight each

other. I'm actually surprised that it worked for you. Most people I talk to say

it doesn't do a thing for them. They sure have a good marketing department!

Carol

Activia worked but hate the HF corn syrup in it

[Guest guest]

Hello Tanstaafl,

How about mixing Kefir with cononut milk?

Gerardo Barriga

From: Tanstaafl <tanstaafl@...>

>Coconut Oil

>Sent: Saturday, October 1, 2011 12:05 PM

>Subject: Re: Probiotic that works for me

>

>

> 

>On 2011-10-01 12:47 PM, a Wolfe <silverlady3@...> wrote:

>> I have tried numerous probiotics, greek yogurt, kefir etc. all with

>> very limited success

>

>Re: kefir - was it store bought or homemade from raw milk? I agree that

>the store bought ones are mostly worthless, but homemade from raw milk

>works extremely well, and is extremely cheap too (once you have the

>kefir grains, it is just the cost of the milk)...

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Activia is one of my wife's favorites because it seems to work better than a

range of seven to nine other probiotic yogurts that she's tried. Jo has has

lingering dysbiosis despite being on a low-carb diet. She cheats a bit when she

feels OK and that plus not using inulin regularly has slowed her progress I

think. Activia seems to reduce her gassiness for a few days and that's nice.

Sugar and corn starch in Activia are prebiotic because they can be fermented by

probiotics. Some bowel organisms can use sugar and starch a bit faster than

probiotics do and that can be a problem.

Bifidobacteria: Genomics and Molecular Aspects by Baltasar Mayo, goes into some

detail on what various strains of bifidobacteria can ferment:

http://books.google.ca/books?id=zaJ6teJ1KiYC

all good,

Duncan

>

> Activia worked but hate the HF corn syrup in it

>

[Guest guest]

I see it as maintenance at best for those with an ok flora to start.

>

> Activia worked but hate the HF corn syrup in it

>

[Guest guest]

On 2011-10-02 2:36 PM, D. Barriga <barriva5@...> wrote:

> On10/1/11 at 12:05PM, Tanstaafl <tanstaafl@...:

>> On 2011-10-01 12:47 PM, a Wolfe <silverlady3@... wrote:

>>> I have tried numerous probiotics, greek yogurt, kefir etc. all with

>>> very limited success

>> Re: kefir - was it store bought or homemade from raw milk? I agree that

>> the store bought ones are mostly worthless, but homemade from raw milk

>> works extremely well, and is extremely cheap too (once you have the

>> kefir grains, it is just the cost of the milk)...

> How about mixing Kefir with coconut milk?

Absolutely - I've never done it before, but have seen and tried a number

of different coconut milk based kefirs. I haven't tried them long enough

to see if they work as well as dairy based, but I imagine they would

(the magic is mostly in the bacteria produced by the kefir grains, not

so much the milk, which just provides a medium for them to grow). I

tolerate dairy very well, so it isn't a big deal for me, but it is on my

list of things to try making myself some day.

[Guest guest]

I think the thiung that needs to be understood id that most probiotics are

'killed' by

stomach acid and are not efficatious in the small intestine...which is where

most of our immune system is...

d

________________________________

From: D. Barriga <barriva5@...>

" Coconut Oil "

<Coconut Oil >

Sent: Sunday, October 2, 2011 2:36 PM

Subject: Re: Probiotic that works for me

 

Hello Tanstaafl,

How about mixing Kefir with cononut milk?

Gerardo Barriga

From: Tanstaafl <tanstaafl@...>

>Coconut Oil

>Sent: Saturday, October 1, 2011 12:05 PM

>Subject: Re: Probiotic that works for me

>

>

> 

>On 2011-10-01 12:47 PM, a Wolfe <silverlady3@...> wrote:

>> I have tried numerous probiotics, greek yogurt, kefir etc. all with

>> very limited success

>

>Re: kefir - was it store bought or homemade from raw milk? I agree that

>the store bought ones are mostly worthless, but homemade from raw milk

>works extremely well, and is extremely cheap too (once you have the

>kefir grains, it is just the cost of the milk)...

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

At least half the adults over 60 have below-normal stomach acid secretion, so

more probiotics and more germs generally get past the stomach acid intact in

these people. Also, eating a decent quantity (bolus) of food with probiotics

dilutes stomach acid a little so more get through. Enteric-coated capsules of

probiotic also allows them past the stomach acid. Stomach acid doesn't have to

be that weak as probiotics are noted for their resistance to acidity, which

allows them to live in their own waste OK while it curtails other organisms.

Once in the relatively neutral environment of the small intestine they can

multiply freely, and the only thing that prevents large numbers from growing

there is mechanical flow of the digestive slurry. As probiotics progress down

the many feet of small intestine

over the ensuing hours the numbers grow radically anyway, and after the

ileo-cecal valve to the colon where there is much less flow and more dewatering

the numbers increase by a thousand to 100,000 times.

The immune system certainly is challenged more at the bowel wall than in most

other parts of the body.

all good,

Duncan

>

> I think the thiung that needs to be understood id that most probiotics are

'killed' by

> stomach acid and are not efficatious in the small intestine...which is where

most of our immune system is...

> d

>

>

[Guest guest]

On 2011-10-03 9:58 AM, Don <hooty304@...> wrote:

> I think the thiung that needs to be understood id that most

> probiotics are 'killed' by stomach acid and are not efficatious in

> the small intestine...which is where most of our immune system is...

Kefir is not a 'probiotic' as much as it is a food. It is *absolutely*

efficacious - but no, I don't have any peer reviewed studies to prove

it, all I have is my own personal experience.

[Guest guest]

Duncan, do you still support the idea that there should be at least 3 strains of

bifido in a probiotic? I take my probiotic based on your this view.

------------

Ratan Singh, Phone: 91 141 2652561, mail: ratanpsych@...

- Certificate in Food & Nutrition; Diploma in Nutrition and Health Education;

Life Member, Nutrion Soc. India.

- Member ISOM;

Author of " Nutrition & Supplements in Major Mental Illnesses " ;

- M.A. (Psychol), Postgraduate Diploma in Medical & Social Psychology, Ph.D.;

- Certified Behavior Therapist (from late Prof. J. Wolpe's Unit, Temple Univ Med

School, USA);- www.RegainMentalHealth.com/  www.ejcbs.com

From: Duncan Crow <duncancrow@...>

Subject: Re: Probiotic that works for me

Coconut Oil

Date: Monday, October 3, 2011, 4:37 AM

 

Activia is one of my wife's favorites because it seems to work better than

a range of seven to nine other probiotic yogurts that she's tried. Jo has has

lingering dysbiosis despite being on a low-carb diet. She cheats a bit when she

feels OK and that plus not using inulin regularly has slowed her progress I

think. Activia seems to reduce her gassiness for a few days and that's nice.

Sugar and corn starch in Activia are prebiotic because they can be fermented by

probiotics. Some bowel organisms can use sugar and starch a bit faster than

probiotics do and that can be a problem.

Bifidobacteria: Genomics and Molecular Aspects by Baltasar Mayo, goes into some

detail on what various strains of bifidobacteria can ferment:

http://books.google.ca/books?id=zaJ6teJ1KiYC

all good,

Duncan

>

> Activia worked but hate the HF corn syrup in it

>

[Guest guest]

On 2011-10-03 11:37 AM, Duncan Crow <duncancrow@...> wrote:

> At least half the adults over 60 have below-normal stomach acid

> secretion, so more probiotics and more germs generally get past the

> stomach acid intact in these people.

Incidentally, almost everyone can benefit, often *immensely*, from HCL

supplementation, and it is very cheap, especially if you buy it in

concentrated liquid form and dilute it yourself (same thing as with

H2O2)... but like H2O2, you best know what you are doing.

[Guest guest]

On 2011-10-03 11:37 AM, Duncan Crow <duncancrow@...> wrote:

> At least half the adults over 60 have below-normal stomach acid

> secretion, so more probiotics and more germs generally get past the

> stomach acid intact in these people.

Incidentally, almost everyone can benefit, often *immensely*, from HCL

supplementation, and it is very cheap, especially if you buy it in

concentrated liquid form and dilute it yourself (same thing as with

H2O2)... but like H2)2, you best know what you are doing.

[Guest guest]

I rhink perhpas drinking kefir and some other water-based probiotic temporarily

reduces stomach acidity, depending on how much is taken in at once. Reducing

stomach acidity will allow more probiotics intact into the duodenum. And they

are fairly resistent to acid anyway.

And some probiotics are more acid-tolerant than others; bifidobacteria strain

BL1 for example exhibited a survival rate of more than 25% in AGJ at pH 3.0 for

2 h.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15354581

all good,

Duncan

> > I think the thiung that needs to be understood id that most

> > probiotics are 'killed' by stomach acid and are not efficatious in

> > the small intestine...which is where most of our immune system is...

>

> Kefir is not a 'probiotic' as much as it is a food. It is *absolutely*

> efficacious - but no, I don't have any peer reviewed studies to prove

> it, all I have is my own personal experience.

>

[Guest guest]

On 2011-10-03 12:43 PM, Duncan Crow <duncancrow@...> wrote:

> I rhink perhpas drinking kefir and some other water-based probiotic

> temporarily reduces stomach acidity, depending on how much is taken in

> at once. Reducing stomach acidity will allow more probiotics intact into

> the duodenum. And they are fairly resistent to acid anyway.

Duncan - I've been adding Inulin to my kefir - good idea, bad, or

indifferent?

[Guest guest]

Ratan I'd really like to see about 8 well-selected bifidobacteria strains in an

adult probiotic because they ahve slightly varying requirements and attributes

and some would probably be unsuccessful at filling the specific niches you want

them to occupy. That's why I suggest rotating them if a mix doesn't seem to be

working with the inulin.

All good,

Duncan

>

> Duncan, do you still support the idea that there should be at least 3 strains

of bifido in a probiotic? I take my probiotic based on your this view.

> ------------

[Guest guest]

On 2011-10-03 12:47 PM, Tanstaafl <tanstaafl@...> wrote:

> Duncan - I've been adding Inulin to my kefir - good idea, bad, or

> indifferent?

Oh - I'm adding it right before I drink it, not when making or storing it.

[Guest guest]

I think kefir with inulin should make a lot of probiotic organisms

....increasing contact time between the probiotic and the substrate.

all good,

Duncan

> > I rhink perhpas drinking kefir and some other water-based probiotic

> > temporarily reduces stomach acidity, depending on how much is taken in

> > at once. Reducing stomach acidity will allow more probiotics intact into

> > the duodenum. And they are fairly resistent to acid anyway.

>

> Duncan - I've been adding Inulin to my kefir - good idea, bad, or

> indifferent?

>

[Guest guest]

On 2011-10-03 12:56 PM, Duncan Crow <duncancrow@...> wrote:

> I think kefir with inulin should make a lot of probiotic organisms

> ...increasing contact time between the probiotic and the substrate.

Good to know...

Would there be any advantage (or disadvantage) to adding it earlier -

either when starting a new batch, or right after straining the kefir

grains from a new one prior to storing?

The way we are making it, a new batch usually sits overnight in the

fridge then I drink it the next day.

Thanks for your thoughts...

[Guest guest]

Kefir's effervescense is said to arise from yeast, which would be controlled by

the much more acidic bifidobacteria. It seems on the face of it that kefir and

the more yogurty probiotic bacteria are incompatible with each other. If you

started the inulin/bifidobacteria early you'd get a sour batch, which may not be

unpleasant to you, and it would be very probiotic. That said, a very strong

ferment with bifidobacteria is nearly unpalatable due to the acidity. If you

added inulin and maybe some bifidobacteria to kefir it would probably get the

probiotics kicked off but you shouldn't taste it if storing it overnight in the

fridge. It's refrigerated and the organisms would have to double several times

despite that to present much acidity. It will activate the probiotics though.

all good,

Duncan

> > I think kefir with inulin should make a lot of probiotic organisms

> > ...increasing contact time between the probiotic and the substrate.

>

> Good to know...

>

> Would there be any advantage (or disadvantage) to adding it earlier -

> either when starting a new batch, or right after straining the kefir

> grains from a new one prior to storing?

>

> The way we are making it, a new batch usually sits overnight in the

> fridge then I drink it the next day.

>

> Thanks for your thoughts...

>

[Guest guest]

Hi Duncan:

*Interesting premise. So if drinking kefir reduces stomach acidity,

doing it often would be a bad thing? Some maintain, as I am sure that

your are aware, that taking probiotics is a waste of time because

stomach acidity just kills them. Then, there is the premise that for

old farts, their acidity is so low that they can kill anything.

Finally, your contention that Inulin/ prebiotic is the way to go makes

sense in this argument... bypass the acidity issue and grow them

naturally.

Cheers,

Jim*

>I rhink perhpas drinking kefir and some other water-based probiotic

temporarily reduces stomach acidity, depending on how much is taken in

at once. Reducing stomach acidity will allow more probiotics intact into

the duodenum. And they are fairly resistent to acid anyway.

And some probiotics are more acid-tolerant than others; bifidobacteria

strain BL1 for example exhibited a survival rate of more than 25% in AGJ

at pH 3.0 for 2 h.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15354581

<http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15354581>

all good,

Duncan<

[Guest guest]

On 2011-10-04 11:45 AM, Huuman <huuman60@...> wrote:

>

> Hi Duncan:

>

> *Interesting premise. So if drinking kefir reduces stomach acidity,

> doing it often would be a bad thing?

Nah... he specifically said it *temporarily* reduces it - probably just

for the few minutes it is in the stomach (Duncan?)...

> Then, there is the premise that for old farts, their acidity is so

> low that they can kill anything.

Eh? It is *high* acidity that kills them, not low...

> Finally, your contention that Inulin/ prebiotic is the way to go makes

> sense in this argument... bypass the acidity issue and grow them

> naturally.

Yup, I'll just keep doing what I'm doing... mix the inulin in right

before I drink it... seems to be working well...

[Guest guest]

I don't think drinking kefir often is bad just because it temporarily dilutes

stomach acid. Stomach acidity is supposed to recover after a bolus or liquid,

but in the ensuing time until it does, many of the organisms are not killed but

pass through to the duodenum.

A few research abstracts I saw showed a percentage of probiotic organisms

survive stomach acid in transit to the gut, and the treatment of Crohn's disease

with VSL#3 probiotic underscores the points validity. How many survive no doubt

depends on how high the stomach pH is when the probiotic is taken, whether the

probiotic is taken in a food bolus or by itself in a capsule, that kind of

thing. Nonetheless, the case is made for feeding the probiotic population in

situ as well.

all good,

Duncan

>

>

> Hi Duncan:

>

> *Interesting premise. So if drinking kefir reduces stomach acidity,

> doing it often would be a bad thing? Some maintain, as I am sure that

> your are aware, that taking probiotics is a waste of time because

> stomach acidity just kills them. Then, there is the premise that for

> old farts, their acidity is so low that they can kill anything.

> Finally, your contention that Inulin/ prebiotic is the way to go makes

> sense in this argument... bypass the acidity issue and grow them

> naturally.

>

> Cheers,

> Jim*

>