Re: Coconut Oil & The Immune System (was: New to Group)

March 13, 2011

MARY ENIG: Coconut Oil and the Immune System@Arts & Opinion

COCONUT OIL AND YOUR IMMUNE SYSTEM. by MARY ENIG. Enig , PhD is the author

of Know Your Fats: The Complete Primer for Understanding the Nutrition of ...

www.artsandopinion.com/2005_v4_n4/coconut-enig.htm

COCONUT OIL – AND THE IMMUNE SYSTEM

quote: " I would like to review the rationale for the use of coconut oil as a

food that will serve as the raw material to provide potentially useful levels of

anti-microbial activity in the individual.

The lauric acid in coconut oil is used by the body to make the same

disease-fighting fatty acid derivative monolaurin that babies make from the

lauric acid they get from their mothers' milk.

The monoglyceride monolaurin is the substance that keeps infants from getting

viral or bacterial or protozoal infections. Until just recently, this important

benefit has been largely overlooked by the medical and nutrition community.

Recognition of the anti-microbial activity of the monoglyceride of lauric acid

(monolaurin) has been reported since 1966. The seminal work can be credited to

Jon Kabara, who, with others, observed, that certain fatty acids and their

derivatives can have adverse effects on various micro-organisms: those

micro-organisms that are inactivated include bacteria, yeast, fungi, and

enveloped viruses.

The medium-chain saturated fatty acids and their derivatives act by disrupting

the lipid membranes of the organisms. The action attributed to monolaurin is

that of solubilizing the lipids and phospholipids in the envelope of the virus

causing the disintegration of the virus envelope. Some of the viruses

inactivated by these lipids, in addition to HIV, are the measles virus, herpes

simplex virus-1 (HSV-1), vesicular stomatitis virus (VSV), visna virus, and

cytomegalovirus (CMV). Many of the pathogenic organisms reported to be

inactivated by these antimicrobial lipids are those known to be responsible for

opportunistic infections in HIV-positive individuals. Thus, it would appear to

be important to investigate the practical aspects and the potential benefit of

an adjunct nutritional support regimen for HIV-infected individuals, which will

utilize those dietary fats that are sources of known anti-viral, anti-microbial,

and anti-protozoal monoglycerides and fatty acids such as monolaurin and its

precursor lauric acid.

No one in the mainstream nutrition community seems to have recognized the added

potential of anti-microbial lipids in the treatment of HIV-infected or AIDS

patients. These anti-microbial fatty acids and their derivatives are essentially

non-toxic to man; they are produced in vivo by humans when they ingest those

commonly available foods that contain adequate levels of medium-chain fatty

acids such as lauric acid. According to the published research, lauric acid is

one of the best `inactivating' fatty acids, and its monoglyceride is even more

effective than the fatty acid alone. " end quote

Dee

>

> I haven't seen indication of CO strengthening one's immune system. I wish it

were true; I would post such research to my coconut oil references page.

>

> all good,

>

> Duncan

>

March 13, 2011

Bruce Fife: " My primary concern is the statement that lauric acid is converted

into monolaurin. This is not true. "

Let's sit back until the dust settles. I wouldn't rely on coconut oil to improve

your immune system in the meantime.

all good,

Duncan

>

> MARY ENIG: Coconut Oil and the Immune System@Arts & Opinion

> COCONUT OIL AND YOUR IMMUNE SYSTEM. by MARY ENIG. Enig , PhD is the

author of Know Your Fats: The Complete Primer for Understanding the Nutrition of

....

> www.artsandopinion.com/2005_v4_n4/coconut-enig.htm

>

> COCONUT OIL – AND THE IMMUNE SYSTEM

>

> quote: " I would like to review the rationale for the use of coconut oil as a

food that will serve as the raw material to provide potentially useful levels of

anti-microbial activity in the individual.

>

> The lauric acid in coconut oil is used by the body to make the same

disease-fighting fatty acid derivative monolaurin that babies make from the

lauric acid they get from their mothers' milk.

>

March 13, 2011

Duncan, Just to throw some complication into the equation, apparently, a diet

rich in fish oil consumption can cause intense production of toxic lipid

peroxides. I read this in " Principles of Orthomolecularism " by R Hemat. So whats

the answer ?

> Bruce Fife: " My primary concern is the statement that lauric acid is converted

into monolaurin. This is not true. "

>

> <Coconut Oil/message/32139>

>

> Let's sit back until the dust settles. I wouldn't rely on coconut oil to

improve your immune system in the meantime.

>

> all good,

>

> Duncan

>

March 13, 2011

Right, ; in excess, fish oil increases oxidative stress. The answer is

that we are discussing balance, not how to obtain imbalance or a toxic response.

all good,

Duncan

>

> Duncan, Just to throw some complication into the equation, apparently, a diet

rich in fish oil consumption can cause intense production of toxic lipid

peroxides. I read this in " Principles of Orthomolecularism " by R Hemat. So whats

the answer ?

>

> > Bruce Fife: " My primary concern is the statement that lauric acid is

converted into monolaurin. This is not true. "

> >

> > <Coconut Oil/message/32139>

> >

> > Let's sit back until the dust settles. I wouldn't rely on coconut oil to

improve your immune system in the meantime.

> >

> > all good,

> >

> > Duncan

> >

>

March 13, 2011

Duncan, it's interesting that you would quote Bruce Fife in order to support

your statement that Coconut oil does nothing for the immune system. As you know

full well, Dr. Fife has the exact opposite view to yours. Did you think no one

would read the message you referenced? Well let me quote the parts that do

support the value of coconut oil for the immune system:

" . . . Therefore, it doesn't matter how much or how little of the MCTs

are converted into monolaurin because it is the MCFAs that do the work and gives

coconut oil is miraculous healing powers, not monolaurin. Monolaurin plays a

supporting role, it is not the main player or even necessary. . . .

Based on my research, coconut oil appears to be more useful than monolaurin for

fighting most infections. Monolaurin has the greatest overall antimicrobial

potency, but the individual MCFAs exert different effects on different

microorganisms. Some microorganisms that are only mildly affected by monolaurin

may be completely destroyed by caprylic acid or capric acid. Lauric acid by

itself is a very potent antimicrobial. Caproic and myistic acids and other fatty

acids in coconut oil also possess antimicrobial power, each with its own unique

ability to kill certain organism better than other fatty acids. When they are

combined, as they are in natural coconut oil, they work synergistically together

improving their overall germ-fighting power, making it greater than any single

MCFA alone. While monoalurin by itself may not be as effective. Therefore,

dietary supplements consisting of only monolaurin may be inferior to ordinary

coconut oil as an antimicrobial. It is defiantly inferior for all the other

health aspects associated with coconut oil such as for fighting cancer,

controlling blood sugar, reversing diabetes/insulin resistance, easing irritable

bowel syndrome, boosting energy levels, etc. This is why I titled my first

coconut book â€œThe Coconut Oil Miracleâ€ and not the â€œMonolaurin Miracle.â€

There are many things coconut oil can do that monolaurin can't. . .

studies have shown that

a few tablespoons of coconut oil daily can knock out infections, sometimes even

better than pure monolaurin. Studies show that EVEN APPLIED TOPICALLY coconut

oil kills infection. Coconut oil does not contain any monolaurin since

monolaruin is only produced during digestion or in a laboratory. Iâ€™ve seen

coconut oil kill chronic skin and nail fungus within days when medications and

herbal treatments used over many months have failed. "

So the operative word is Coconut Oil - not monolaurin.

Dee

>

> Bruce Fife: " My primary concern is the statement that lauric acid is converted

into monolaurin. This is not true. "

>

> <Coconut Oil/message/32139>

>

> Let's sit back until the dust settles. I wouldn't rely on coconut oil to

improve your immune system in the meantime.

>

> all good,

>

> Duncan

>

March 13, 2011

Dee, Dr. Fife's view I posted contradicted your argument, that's all. It's still

at the bottom of this post for your reference. I mentioned the dust settling

without producing an opinion so you wouldn't get your dust on me

I think it would be interesting discuss the data Enig and Fife used with which

to arrive at their contradictory statements.

Your tangental cut-n-paste below does not address the monolaurin subject, but

looking at the quoted passage, it supports individual MCT properties including

antimicrobial power but stops well short of declaring them a support to the

immune system. Indeed, the immune system is in fact not mentioned in your

rebuttal; your entire post is a red herring to the argument.

Dr. Fife knows MCTs are not effective immune boosters; by his own writing they

go directly to fuel the tissues. And, although oils kill microbes wholesale

in-vitro (in a test tube) he knows that data is too thin to support declaring

this action in-vivo (in the body). He knows that even the famous HIV research

had barely significant, yet spotty, results; this according to the primary

researcher Conrado Dayrit's own works that we discussed on-list a few months

ago. So the concept you are championing is pretty much unsupported, a zero as it

stands today, and people with HIV for example have not managed to make it work

on themselves either.

So, although even spotty results are at least something and for some, maybe

worth a shot, it's a huge leap of faith to declare the MCT approach will kill

even susceptable organisms in the bloodstream, let alone the lymph, and

non-enveloped, many cell wall deficient and nearly all fungal organisms will

remain untouched because they aren't killed by fatty acids anyway.

all good,

Duncan

> >

> > Bruce Fife: " My primary concern is the statement that lauric acid is

converted into monolaurin. This is not true. "

> >

> > <Coconut Oil/message/32139>

March 13, 2011

>

> I think it would be interesting discuss the data Enig and Fife used with which

to arrive at their contradictory statements.

Duncan, the subject was not monolaurin, but coconut oil itself. And as far as

Enig and Fife using contradictory statements I find no contradiction in their

respective findings. Here is what Bruce Fife said in one of the previous

discussions you cite:

quote:

> > The same medium chain fatty acids and medium chain monoglycerides produced

> > from coconut oil (during digestion) are also produced from mother's milk.

> > Studies have shown that these substances in mother's milk possess

> > antimicrobial power, not just in the test tube but in humans. I've read

> > several such studies but I haven't taken the time right now to track them

> > down. One of the functions of breast milk is to kill harmful microorganisms.

> > Researchers say that it is due primarily to the medium chain fatty acids in

> > breast milk that protects newborns from infection and not antibodies from

> > the mother.

Isn't that the same thing that Enig said? And isn't mother's milk considered an

immune system booster? So please provide the quote where Bruce Fife says coconut

oil is not.

Dee

March 13, 2011

Oh, sorry Dee if you missed the contradiction:

Your post quotes Enig saying the monolaurin is created by the body and can be

used,

My post quotes Dr. Fife's statement that it can not.

Read things twice is my best advice.

all good,

Duncan

> >

> > I think it would be interesting discuss the data Enig and Fife used with

which to arrive at their contradictory statements.

>

> Duncan, the subject was not monolaurin, but coconut oil itself. And as far as

Enig and Fife using contradictory statements I find no contradiction in their

respective findings. Here is what Bruce Fife said in one of the previous

discussions you cite:

>

> quote:

> > > The same medium chain fatty acids and medium chain monoglycerides

produced

> > > from coconut oil (during digestion) are also produced from mother's milk.

> > > Studies have shown that these substances in mother's milk possess

> > > antimicrobial power, not just in the test tube but in humans. I've read

> > > several such studies but I haven't taken the time right now to track them

> > > down. One of the functions of breast milk is to kill harmful

microorganisms.

> > > Researchers say that it is due primarily to the medium chain fatty acids

in

> > > breast milk that protects newborns from infection and not antibodies from

> > > the mother.

>

> Isn't that the same thing that Enig said? And isn't mother's milk considered

an immune system booster? So please provide the quote where Bruce Fife says

coconut oil is not.

>

> Dee

>

March 14, 2011

And that proves exactly what Duncan? They both agree that COCONUT OIL - by

whatever method - has immune enhancing properties due to the same medium chain

monoglycerides produced during digestion as that contained in mother's milk. It

can't get any clearer than that.

Perhaps you should take your own advice - about reading things twice, that is.

Dee

> > >

> > > I think it would be interesting discuss the data Enig and Fife used with

which to arrive at their contradictory statements.

> >

> > Duncan, the subject was not monolaurin, but coconut oil itself. And as far

as Enig and Fife using contradictory statements I find no contradiction in their

respective findings. Here is what Bruce Fife said in one of the previous

discussions you cite:

> >

> > quote:

> > > > The same medium chain fatty acids and medium chain monoglycerides

produced

> > > > from coconut oil (during digestion) are also produced from mother's

milk.

> > > > Studies have shown that these substances in mother's milk possess

> > > > antimicrobial power, not just in the test tube but in humans. I've read

> > > > several such studies but I haven't taken the time right now to track

them

> > > > down. One of the functions of breast milk is to kill harmful

microorganisms.

> > > > Researchers say that it is due primarily to the medium chain fatty acids

in

> > > > breast milk that protects newborns from infection and not antibodies

from

> > > > the mother.

> >

> > Isn't that the same thing that Enig said? And isn't mother's milk considered

an immune system booster? So please provide the quote where Bruce Fife says

coconut oil is not.

> >

> > Dee

> >

>

March 14, 2011

Sorry, Dee, but I saw little agreement. While Dr. Fife's passage failed to

mention the immune system at all, Enig speculated about it much like you did,

guessing the property of the oil might maintain this property while it's briefly

in the blood going straight to the cells.

Thus the coment about beefing up the immune system point remains unproven.

Again, it is a guess to apply test tube data to an in-vivo situation. Note again

that the HIV people failed to replicate success in vivo. I've been on some of

the HIV forums.

all good,

Duncan

> > > >

> > > > I think it would be interesting discuss the data Enig and Fife used with

which to arrive at their contradictory statements.

> > >

> > > Duncan, the subject was not monolaurin, but coconut oil itself. And as far

as Enig and Fife using contradictory statements I find no contradiction in their

respective findings. Here is what Bruce Fife said in one of the previous

discussions you cite:

> > >

> > > quote:

> > > > > The same medium chain fatty acids and medium chain monoglycerides

produced

> > > > > from coconut oil (during digestion) are also produced from mother's

milk.

> > > > > Studies have shown that these substances in mother's milk possess

> > > > > antimicrobial power, not just in the test tube but in humans. I've

read

> > > > > several such studies but I haven't taken the time right now to track

them

> > > > > down. One of the functions of breast milk is to kill harmful

microorganisms.

> > > > > Researchers say that it is due primarily to the medium chain fatty

acids in

> > > > > breast milk that protects newborns from infection and not antibodies

from

> > > > > the mother.

> > >

> > > Isn't that the same thing that Enig said? And isn't mother's milk

considered an immune system booster? So please provide the quote where Bruce

Fife says coconut oil is not.

> > >

> > > Dee

> > >

> >

>

March 14, 2011

On 2011-03-14 9:38 AM, Dolores wrote:

> And that proves exactly what Duncan? They both agree that COCONUT OIL -

> by whatever method - has immune enhancing properties due to the same

> medium chain monoglycerides produced during digestion as that contained

> in mother's milk. It can't get any clearer than that.

'antimicrobial properties' != 'immune enhancing properties'

March 14, 2011

But Duncan, if MCFAs fueled tissues, wouldn't that include the thyroid and

intestines, which are involved involved in immunity. If it also helps heal

inflammation wouldn't that at least support, indirectly, immunity.

I am surprised you do not support coconut oil/MCTs for immunity support. Bruce

Fife's post from Mon Nov 22, 2010 2:42 pm seems glowing of the medium-chain

fatty acids content of coconut oil for enhancing immunity.

thanks

elaine

> > >

> > > Bruce Fife: " My primary concern is the statement that lauric acid is

converted into monolaurin. This is not true. "

> > >

>

March 14, 2011

If any food helps to keep you alive you could think of it as an immune booster,

but the term was used as a specific attribute or property of coconut oil.

Coconut oil does not have the property of immune boosting used in common

discussion, it's really a reach to say it has, a myth-structure emerged, and it

was exposed.

all good,

Duncan

>

> But Duncan, if MCFAs fueled tissues, wouldn't that include the thyroid and

intestines, which are involved involved in immunity. If it also helps heal

inflammation wouldn't that at least support, indirectly, immunity.

> I am surprised you do not support coconut oil/MCTs for immunity support.

Bruce Fife's post from Mon Nov 22, 2010 2:42 pm seems glowing of the

medium-chain fatty acids content of coconut oil for enhancing immunity.

>

> thanks

>

> elaine

>

March 14, 2011

That's true only in your opinion. As you often do, you have mistated or twisted

what was presented, but that's OK. Some of us just get tired of your inane

rants. You can be a hero in your own mind.

Craig

> >

> > But Duncan, if MCFAs fueled tissues, wouldn't that include the thyroid and

intestines, which are involved involved in immunity. If it also helps heal

inflammation wouldn't that at least support, indirectly, immunity.

> > I am surprised you do not support coconut oil/MCTs for immunity support.

Bruce Fife's post from Mon Nov 22, 2010 2:42 pm seems glowing of the

medium-chain fatty acids content of coconut oil for enhancing immunity.

> >

> > thanks

> >

> > elaine

> >

>

March 14, 2011

I am new to the group also and fairly recently started using VCO and have

started reading a book that goes into the supposed benefits of VCO. So are you

telling me that I am just wasting my money and that it's all just hype with no

real basis?

Jennie

Sent from my iPad

On Mar 14, 2011, at 21:57, " crgstef " <crgstef@...> wrote:

>

> That's true only in your opinion. As you often do, you have mistated or

twisted what was presented, but that's OK. Some of us just get tired of your

inane rants. You can be a hero in your own mind.

> Craig

>

> > >

> > > But Duncan, if MCFAs fueled tissues, wouldn't that include the thyroid and

intestines, which are involved involved in immunity. If it also helps heal

inflammation wouldn't that at least support, indirectly, immunity.

> > > I am surprised you do not support coconut oil/MCTs for immunity support.

Bruce Fife's post from Mon Nov 22, 2010 2:42 pm seems glowing of the

medium-chain fatty acids content of coconut oil for enhancing immunity.

> > >

> > > thanks

> > >

> > > elaine

> > >

> >

>

March 15, 2011

Your ad-hominem attack is unwelcome again sparky, and it makes you look useless

in many other ways.

all good,

Duncan

>

> That's true only in your opinion. As you often do, you have mistated or

twisted what was presented, but that's OK. Some of us just get tired of your

inane rants. You can be a hero in your own mind.

> Craig

March 15, 2011

Duncan,

Craig speaks for all who have given up participating in the discussions due to

your bullying tactics and attempts to drown everyone out and dominate every

discussion. This list is about Coconut Oil, yet you belittle it every chance you

get in order to promote your own personal protocol - plus the MLM products you

either are (or were) associated with in the past. Yes undenatured whey is good.

I use it. Yes, selenium is good. I use it. Yes, butter is good. I use that too.

And inulin is good for some but not for others. We get all that. But none of

those things is a substitute for coconut oil, which has so many uses.

And Craig is absolutely right. Whenever your opinions are challenged you resort

to twisting what was presented in order to win the argument. And you ALWAYS have

to have the last word no matter. ly, it was really nice not to have you

around this morning as many of the posts were quite informative and welcome. So

go ahead - hit me with your usual insulting reply. I can take it.

Dee

> >

> > That's true only in your opinion. As you often do, you have mistated or

twisted what was presented, but that's OK. Some of us just get tired of your

inane rants. You can be a hero in your own mind.

> > Craig

>

March 15, 2011

The " boosts the immune system " claim was hype or at least an unfortunate and

confusing choice of words; most of the other health claims are supported by data

and practice.

all good,

Duncan

>

> I am new to the group also and fairly recently started using VCO and have

started reading a book that goes into the supposed benefits of VCO. So are you

telling me that I am just wasting my money and that it's all just hype with no

real basis?

>

> Jennie

>

March 15, 2011

Yup, you adopted all the good stuff yet still you scold!! tsk!

This list is also an open forum. It's in the title.

People read my posts because they are useful, including the bits that expose

your myth-building.

all good,

Duncan

>

> Duncan,

>

> Craig speaks for all who have given up participating in the discussions due to

your bullying tactics and attempts to drown everyone out and dominate every

discussion. This list is about Coconut Oil, yet you belittle it every chance you

get in order to promote your own personal protocol - plus the MLM products you

either are (or were) associated with in the past. Yes undenatured whey is good.

I use it. Yes, selenium is good. I use it. Yes, butter is good. I use that too.

And inulin is good for some but not for others. We get all that. But none of

those things is a substitute for coconut oil, which has so many uses.

>

> And Craig is absolutely right. Whenever your opinions are challenged you

resort to twisting what was presented in order to win the argument. And you

ALWAYS have to have the last word no matter. ly, it was really nice not to

have you around this morning as many of the posts were quite informative and

welcome. So go ahead - hit me with your usual insulting reply. I can take it.

>

> Dee

>

March 15, 2011

Pride goeth before a fall. This certainly qualifies as pride. I am good and

tired of it.

________________________________

From: Duncan Crow <duncancrow@...>

Coconut Oil

Sent: Tue, March 15, 2011 12:53:29 PM

Subject: Re: Coconut Oil & The Immune System (was: New

to Group)

Your ad-hominem attack is unwelcome again sparky, and it makes you look useless

in many other ways.

all good,

Duncan

>

> That's true only in your opinion. As you often do, you have mistated or

twisted

>what was presented, but that's OK. Some of us just get tired of your inane

>rants. You can be a hero in your own mind.

> Craig

March 15, 2011

Your posts are very useful Duncan. Always informative.

Nerio

Yup, you adopted all the good stuff yet still you scold!! tsk!

This list is also an open forum. It's in the title.

People read my posts because they are useful, including the bits that expose

your myth-building.

a

March 15, 2011

Just to set the record straight, Duncan, I adopted all that good stuff

(including coconut oil) long before joining this forum. I have been interested

in nutrition for 40 years and do my own research. I joined in order to hear from

others how they were using coconut oil and to associate with people who have the

same interests. Along the way, picked up tips on other good supplements/herbs as

well. Most of those people have either left or no longer post because of the

difficulty of dealing with your inflated ego. And as far as myth-building goes,

I dare say you've built a few of your own.

Dee

> >

> > Duncan,

> >

> > Craig speaks for all who have given up participating in the discussions due

to your bullying tactics and attempts to drown everyone out and dominate every

discussion. This list is about Coconut Oil, yet you belittle it every chance you

get in order to promote your own personal protocol - plus the MLM products you

either are (or were) associated with in the past. Yes undenatured whey is good.

I use it. Yes, selenium is good. I use it. Yes, butter is good. I use that too.

And inulin is good for some but not for others. We get all that. But none of

those things is a substitute for coconut oil, which has so many uses.

> >

> > And Craig is absolutely right. Whenever your opinions are challenged you

resort to twisting what was presented in order to win the argument. And you

ALWAYS have to have the last word no matter. ly, it was really nice not to

have you around this morning as many of the posts were quite informative and

welcome. So go ahead - hit me with your usual insulting reply. I can take it.

> >

> > Dee

> >

>

March 15, 2011

Dee, thanks for the opportunity for this discussion; maybe you're the only one

left of your sort but your underlying questions keep me on my toes so they are

most appreciated, even when the particular wording is not.

Probing questions such as yours induce people to respond with salient facts.

Comparing the facts allows us to identify myths as they emerge. Myth-busting is

a good thing in health. It's not about ego except to you; to me, it's comparing

notes and discussing research.

Attribution of properties that do not exist can be fatally counterproductive and

I think should be exposed.

If you could just stay on the subject until we discuss it that would be nice;

last year you were ponying up e. coli information on cow farms into our

discussion of salmonella in chickens. That's why I questioned your reading and

comprehension outright and continue to do so; this last dialogue on coconut oil

being unfortunately called an " immune booster " was typical.

If you think I have also been creating myths, let's take a look at the

statements/research in question; that's what the forum is for.

all good,

Duncan

>

> Just to set the record straight, Duncan, I adopted all that good stuff

(including coconut oil) long before joining this forum. I have been interested

in nutrition for 40 years and do my own research. I joined in order to hear from

others how they were using coconut oil and to associate with people who have the

same interests. Along the way, picked up tips on other good supplements/herbs as

well. Most of those people have either left or no longer post because of the

difficulty of dealing with your inflated ego. And as far as myth-building goes,

I dare say you've built a few of your own.

>

> Dee

>

March 15, 2011

Dee,

It seems to me you are just as guilty as Duncan with regards trying to

have the last word.

Alobar

On Tue, Mar 15, 2011 at 12:29 PM, Dolores <dgk@...> wrote: