Re: Re: vitamin C to reduce oxalate stones?

March 19, 2011

Many many people sensitive to dietary oxalates have no problem with

renal stones. When vitamin C is used by the cells in our bodies, it

produces oxalate. Oxalates which lodge in tissues cause problems. So

many many problems relate back to oxalates in tissue.

But the problem is with oxalates. Oxalates often can lodge inside of

cells. When the body dumps oxalates, one gets problems. For me, I can

get leg, foot and finger cramping. I also had some bursitis a while

back. oxalates get excreted via sweat, but one can get lumps like

something which is a pimple, but it does not come to a head. Open

sores develop. In summer, prickly heat can get massive. I have gotten

dry scabby sores at the hairline of my beard, mustache, around ears.

When I am having big-time oxalate problems, my face looks somewhat

like mild case of rosacea.

, the lady running the oxalate list, is a professional researcher

who has been gathering data on oxalate problems for years and

presenting her findings at various conferences of doctors. When most

doctors think oxalate problems, the focus on renal oxalates. has

a hunch that oxalates trapped in deep tissue can cause or exacerbate

many different diseases and conditions. But her gathering & presenting

of anecdotal information to health conferences is not " real research " ,

so it is only step 1. Probably in 50 years or so, more will be known

about the consequences of oxalates in deep tissue and oxalate dumping.

I take whey + Selenium almost every day. When I get the time I shall

start making liposomal vitamin C, and possibly liposomal glutathione

to reduce my intake of vitamin C daily.

Below from on metabolism of Ascorbic Acid.

Alobar

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Alobar,

It looks like it will take a visit to the library to get some old

studies (because they are ALL old!) but basically, animals metabolize

a great deal of ascorbic acid to carbon dioxide, but we don't have

that pathway, or if we do, it is very limited. (Sometimes we get some

metabolic pathways we don't have because of our flora.)

The lack of this pathway for degradation is probably why so much

ascorbic acid (or dihydroascorbic acid) is left to be metabolized to

oxalate!

Two papers to read are Quantitative Aspects of Ascorbic Acid

Metabolism in Man (Atkins et al, 1964) and Ascorbic Acid Metabolism in

Man (Baker et al, 1966). These are available online. It is the animal

studies which show the metabolism of ascorbic acid to carbon dioxide I

cannot find handily.

On Sat, Mar 19, 2011 at 5:38 PM, Duncan Crow <duncancrow@...> wrote:

> Ratan, the reverse; natural vitamin C reduces oxalate stones; here's the

reference:

>

> <http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19507407>

>

> ...but ascorbic acid in theory and high-oxalate foods in practice can support

oxalate stones in susceptable people. Alobar, who is oxalate-sensitive, can

probably add considerably to this subject.

>

> As a practical matter, glutathione recycles vitamin C so you don't need to

megadose C if you're using undenatured whey and selenium. I think this huge

difference was underestimated or missed by ing and Rath, who promote

high-dose ascorbic acid.

>

> all good,

>

> Duncan

>

March 19, 2011

I thought this was connecting high intake of vitamin C to oxalates to stone

formation, which as I understand, affects a very small percentage of people

(like Alobar perhaps) that have a very unique and unusual biochemical

structure.

However, having studied Dr. Rath's Cellular Medicine protocols

and looked at his published studies, the amounts of vitamin C in the Heart

Failure study is only 1300 mg, in the H.B.P study is 1600mg.

Hardly mega doses as Duncan suggests.

The recycling of vitamin C though, when taking undenatured whey and

selenium intrigues me! Are there any studies on that?

Cardiovascular disease runs in my family and prevention is very high on my

list. So far, I have absolutely no issues, enjoying perfect health.

I take daily 2x1000mg Ester-C with bioflavonoids.

I think synergist nutrient action is also very important.

Cheers,

Nick

On Sat, Mar 19, 2011 at 6:54 PM, Alobar <Alobar@...> wrote:

>

> Many many people sensitive to dietary oxalates have no problem with

> renal stones. When vitamin C is used by the cells in our bodies, it

> produces oxalate. Oxalates which lodge in tissues cause problems. So

> many many problems relate back to oxalates in tissue.

>

> But the problem is with oxalates. Oxalates often can lodge inside of

> cells. When the body dumps oxalates, one gets problems. For me, I can

> get leg, foot and finger cramping. I also had some bursitis a while

> back. oxalates get excreted via sweat, but one can get lumps like

> something which is a pimple, but it does not come to a head. Open

> sores develop. In summer, prickly heat can get massive. I have gotten

> dry scabby sores at the hairline of my beard, mustache, around ears.

> When I am having big-time oxalate problems, my face looks somewhat

> like mild case of rosacea.

>

> , the lady running the oxalate list, is a professional researcher

> who has been gathering data on oxalate problems for years and

> presenting her findings at various conferences of doctors. When most

> doctors think oxalate problems, the focus on renal oxalates. has

> a hunch that oxalates trapped in deep tissue can cause or exacerbate

> many different diseases and conditions. But her gathering & presenting

> of anecdotal information to health conferences is not " real research " ,

> so it is only step 1. Probably in 50 years or so, more will be known

> about the consequences of oxalates in deep tissue and oxalate dumping.

>

> I take whey + Selenium almost every day. When I get the time I shall

> start making liposomal vitamin C, and possibly liposomal glutathione

> to reduce my intake of vitamin C daily.

>

> Below from on metabolism of Ascorbic Acid.

>

> Alobar

>

> ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

>

> Alobar,

>

> It looks like it will take a visit to the library to get some old

> studies (because they are ALL old!) but basically, animals metabolize

> a great deal of ascorbic acid to carbon dioxide, but we don't have

> that pathway, or if we do, it is very limited. (Sometimes we get some

> metabolic pathways we don't have because of our flora.)

>

> The lack of this pathway for degradation is probably why so much

> ascorbic acid (or dihydroascorbic acid) is left to be metabolized to

> oxalate!

>

> Two papers to read are Quantitative Aspects of Ascorbic Acid

> Metabolism in Man (Atkins et al, 1964) and Ascorbic Acid Metabolism in

> Man (Baker et al, 1966). These are available online. It is the animal

> studies which show the metabolism of ascorbic acid to carbon dioxide I

> cannot find handily.

>

> On Sat, Mar 19, 2011 at 5:38 PM, Duncan Crow <duncancrow@...> wrote:

> > Ratan, the reverse; natural vitamin C reduces oxalate stones; here's the

> reference:

> >

> > <http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19507407>

> >

> > ...but ascorbic acid in theory and high-oxalate foods in practice can

> support oxalate stones in susceptable people. Alobar, who is

> oxalate-sensitive, can probably add considerably to this subject.

> >

> > As a practical matter, glutathione recycles vitamin C so you don't need

> to megadose C if you're using undenatured whey and selenium. I think this

> huge difference was underestimated or missed by ing and Rath, who

> promote high-dose ascorbic acid.

> >

> > all good,

> >

> > Duncan

> >

>

March 20, 2011

Hi Duncan,

To the best of my knowledge, nobody has measured the pH of the exudate

from the skin. I'll check on the list and get back to you if I get

feedback.

What makes oxalate problems so frustrating was summed up on the

oxalate list a while back. See below.

Alobar

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Eating oxalate is NOT like having an allergy. I come from a background

of food allergies, so I was used to watching us like a hawk and then

figuring out which recently-eaten food was the " problem " .

This does not work for oxalate.

We have had oxalate infractions here and then had no reaction for up

to 2 weeks - when the body must have started dumping the excess. We've

had oxalate infractions that I KNEW were a problem from as little as a

half hour or so after eating the food. However, you can't depend on

that being the case...

This is a matter of metabolism. You keep your oxalate low; your body

dumps when it can / is ready to. The last thing you ate is not

something that you are necessarily reacting to! The only way to be

sure that a particular food is a problem is to stay away from it for

awhile and then try to introduce it again - and/or get testing if you

suspect an allergy.

We might use the word " allergy " when talking to people outside of this

list, but the bottom line is that oxalate is not an allergy, it is a

poison. Like heavy metals, it can come into your body, be stored away

somewhere, and you can get no reaction. It can be very subtle, up

until you are good and sick and then you " see " it.

We also may get allergic type symptoms to a food while we are dumping

- and then will not when not dumping... So another thing to consider.

On Sat, Mar 19, 2011 at 7:42 PM, Duncan Crow <duncancrow@...> wrote:

> And Alobar, any chance you can get a good cause:effect reaction that you can

identify in hours after eating rhubarb pie or some such? (to test whether the

rash might be from oxalate exudation/irritation)

>

> all good,

>

> Duncan

>

>> >

>> > Many many people sensitive to dietary oxalates have no problem with

>> > renal stones. When vitamin C is used by the cells in our bodies, it

>> > produces oxalate. Oxalates which lodge in tissues cause problems.

>>

>

> ------------------------------------

>

March 20, 2011

not sure what you are talking about but i use a lot of vit c and i have just

found out i have a stomach ulcer. should i stop the vit c

maria