Jump to content
RemedySpot.com

Adoption

Rate this topic


Guest guest

Recommended Posts

Margaret,

I would be interested in some info on russia adoption. We have some friends

that adopted a little girl from Russia 5 1/2 yrs ago. She told me the story

of how they went to get her, it was amazing and scary. We were not sure after

we heard her story. Thanks.

Kim Abigail and ds - 2 yrs and Mikayla - 4 yrs

PS I also love the name Annice. That was my great grandmother's name

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • 2 weeks later...

,

Thanks so much for the info, I in fact, have had some email contact with

this mother-to-be, she replied to my email BEFORE she decided on adoption

plan. I emailed her once again on the 30TH and have not gotten any reply. I

know that she was planning to move to Texas to be with her Fiance, before the

babies were born. Not sure what is happening in her life now.

On the BRIGHT side, I am in contact VIA a friend with a Mom-to-be in the US

she is very young and carrying identical twin girls also, due around

Christmas, they both have DS, she is supposed to make a final decision on

adoption by the end of the week. I am keeping fingers crossed and praying...

Prayers will be appreciated for our family as well as this young girl and her

family.

:))

Link to comment
Share on other sites

,

You are in my thoughts and prayers. Please keep us

updated on the progress of your adoption. I know that

it will eventually happen for you.

mom to Landon(DS) and Ashton - 16

months

--- MELANIEBBB@... wrote:

> ,

>

> Thanks so much for the info, I in fact, have had

> some email contact with

> this mother-to-be, she replied to my email BEFORE

> she decided on adoption

> plan. I emailed her once again on the 30TH and have

> not gotten any reply. I

> know that she was planning to move to Texas to be

> with her Fiance, before the

> babies were born. Not sure what is happening in her

> life now.

> On the BRIGHT side, I am in contact VIA a friend

> with a Mom-to-be in the US

> she is very young and carrying identical twin girls

> also, due around

> Christmas, they both have DS, she is supposed to

> make a final decision on

> adoption by the end of the week. I am keeping

> fingers crossed and praying...

>

> Prayers will be appreciated for our family as well

> as this young girl and her

> family.

>

> :))

>

>

------------------------------------------------------------------------

> http://DSyndrome.com/Multiples

>

<HR>

<html>

>

=====

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • 1 month later...

Sara,

After your message, I went to the website and I

saw the picture of the adorable identical twins up for

adoption. When I checked my e-mail from the listserve,

this was posted. Do you know of anyway these people

can get assistance to adopt those children? I would be

willing to collect donations from my family etc. How

do you know if the post was legit? Just concerned

after the scam with on UNOMAS. I was just

drawn to the story, especially since the girls are

twins and both of the prospective adoptive parents are

special education teachers. The post follows this

e-mail. mom to

Landon(ds) and Ashton 18 months

Note: forwarded message attached.

__________________________________________________

Link to comment
Share on other sites

To check to see if this women is legit you can call

Cradle of Hope and ask them! Tell them that you are

interested in financially helping whichever family is

trying to adopt the indetical twin girls with DS that

are 5 years old from Russia. Cradle of Hope is a legit

adoption agency (I know a few families that have

adopted through them) and they will probably allow you

to donate directly to them (Cradle of Hope) so that

all the money will go towards the girls' adoption.

Cradle of Hope

Culp @ (301) 587-4400

or e-mail her at: mculp@...

is the women to talk to about these twins.

Cheers,

Sara

--- Huckabee <ahuckabee@...> wrote:

> Sara,

>

> After your message, I went to the website and I

> saw the picture of the adorable identical twins up

> for

> adoption. When I checked my e-mail from the

> listserve,

> this was posted. Do you know of anyway these people

> can get assistance to adopt those children? I would

> be

> willing to collect donations from my family etc. How

> do you know if the post was legit? Just concerned

> after the scam with on UNOMAS. I was just

> drawn to the story, especially since the girls are

> twins and both of the prospective adoptive parents

> are

> special education teachers. The post follows this

> e-mail. mom to

> Landon(ds) and Ashton 18 months

>

>

> Note: forwarded message attached.

>

> __________________________________________________

>

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Good luck !

I didn't realize you were interested in International

Adoption as well. Please keep us updated!

Cheers,

Sara

--- MELANIEBBB@... wrote:

> From: MELANIEBBB@...

>

> ,

>

> Sara's response to checking out this couple was a

> GREAT way to go about doing

> it, that way you do not step on any toes or hurt any

> feelings. I understood

> the costs to be approximately $10,000 for one child,

> but I would not think

> that the costs would double for a sibling group,

> maybe be a little higher,

> but, not doubled. As you know I am interested in

> adopting one or more

> children with DS, and I just in fact received all of

> my paperwork from INS to

> get clearance, Sounds like a long process, but, well

> worth it in the end. I

> was warned ahead of time to state on my application

> that I wanted to adopt

> more than one child in the event that, once we got

> to orphanage, we may find

> another child with DS that we would like to bring

> home as well, if INS only

> approves one child than you have NO chance of

> bringing back another. ( or

> that is my understanding) Wish I could bring them

> all back... I am in fact

> going to call this agency in the morning, I emailed

> them on Friday, and

> maybe, with luck and prayers we can bring home one

> or two. (The little boy is

> absolutely adorable) Wish us luck, and keep us in

> mind for any available

> situations...

>

>

>

> Wife to Byrd (Bud)

> Mom to 17 years old

> Nikki 15 years old and our **Special Angel on

> earth**

> 10 years old

> and our zoo of numerous pets

>

> ---------------------------

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Sara,

We did not realize when we started this whole adoption journey that we would

consider International adoption, BUT, it seems as though there are just so

many couples in the US willing to adopt children with DS, and not that many

children out there. I think that many new parents are choosing to parent

their babies with DS, or are aborting early on. So our alternative is to

check into International adoption. Our only holdbacks are the fees (we have

recently seen many agencies that are willing to waive their fees) and the

fact that you have to travel. That could be a real stumbling block for us,

because we have a 15 year old daughter that is mentally and physically

challenged that we would have to leave behind. Maybe we can figure a way to

do it all...

:))

Wife to Byrd (Bud)

Mom to 17 years old

Nikki 15 years old and our **Special Angel on earth**

10 years old

and our zoo of numerous pets

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • 5 months later...
Guest guest

I feel so blessed. I never went through any of that. was born in

Westerly, RI. The doctor informed us a little too matter of factly to suit me,

but he didn't act like it was a death sentence. We got a private room at

semi-private cost (they just didn't put any one in the other bed). They never

mentioned institutions, adoption or anything. Of course, his primary night time

nurse had a 10 year old Down Syndrome girl. We got home 2 days later for one

hour and they called him back for a high bilirubin (sp) count. I didn't go back

to see him because I thought I'd probably try to sneak him out under my coat. I

sent DH in with pumped milk every 4 hours or so (we lived a half block from the

hospital). I didn't visit until 2 days later, the last night, because my

parents had come in. The nurse thought I had emotionally detached myself and

was in denial. She had been carrying him around while she did her rounds....he

was spoiled rotten.

Later, when he was a little over a year, we got all that from a barber, who we

later found out had had a DS son in the early 60's. He didn't tell us all that,

but asked if we were told - you know, give him up, if he lives to be 3 he should

be alright, you can always have another one, etc. I guess he had gotten all

that back then.

We also had a visiting nurse who came and gave me therapy things to do with him,

and check on his progress. It's been 10 years, all I remember is doing the

" bring the hands up to midline and kiss them " because he wasn't bringing his

hands to midline by himself. I'll never forget the day I laid him on his back,

bent over him and he raised his hands by himself for me to kiss.

Sorry for waxing nostalgic....

Loriann

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Guest guest

amen margaret, i don't think it was having a downs baby at 18 that was hard,

it was the unacceptable behavior of the socalled professionals that made it

harder and scared the dookie outta me........ they frighten you and give you

incorrect outdated information and offer no POSITIVE SUPPORT!!!!

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Guest guest

lori, that sounds so sweet.....i am glad someone was fortunate to have a

decent birthing experience......mine was hell, aint no other way to put

it......... what a moment he lifted his hands.........

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • 8 months later...

In a message dated 2/12/2001 5:56:27 PM Eastern Standard Time,

cyndi0633@... writes:

> . She isn't wealthy and has not gotten any of her

> other children through agencies because of the high

> cost.

What costs? If done through an agency (public) there should be no fee and

she should get subsidies. Adopt American Network, Inc. does not charge any

fees, but they get dozens of home studies each day.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • 1 year later...
Guest guest

I have to admit that I didn't set out to adopt tim, nor indeed to foster a child

with ds. I had always wanted to adopt

a child with a disabiltiy but not speicifically ds, but it was more a pipe dream

than anything not a specific life

plan. When I fostered tim I had initially intended to do short term preadoption

fostering of tiny babies, this was in

Hong Kong, but only the babies with disabiltieis were up for fostering and tim

was deemed to be in most need of home

rather than institutional care becoz of his medical needs. I actually set out

to feed a need of my own, there was no

sense of I must give a child a home, or I must give a child a chance. I had

lost a baby the year before and wanted to

have a succesion of tiny babies to fill a gap in my life. Totally selfish

motives. As fate turned out that need for

tiny babies was never fulfilled through fostering, I was asked to take tim and I

said yes without hesitation. But even

then I never for one moment intended to keep him. He was destined for The USA

throught the HOLT overseas adoption

programme, but on paper he looked really bad and the only person enquiring after

him was single, not something the hong

kong authorites would sanction at the time. It was only then that I started to

think what would happen to tim when I

left Hong Kong. After a chance meeting with a 14 year old girl with ds in

instituional care I decided I couldn't

abandon him to the system. She was well cared for, clean, articulate, obviously

well educated but had no spirit. The

woman with her said that at 2 ( tims age at the time) she had been just like

tim, and he was bubbly, chirpy, full of

life and I knew I couldn't let him become like this girl. So we adopted him.

What I am trying to say in a long winded

kind of way is that people who adopt, many of us, some of us anyway, don't adopt

out of the goodness of our hearts, we

do it becoz it just happens, like tim, or out of selfish motives of our own, we

want a baby, we want to care for

another person, 'we want'. Tim never asked to be adopted, I wanted him, I loved

him and didn't want to be parted from

him. Maybe I thought about the consequences a bit harder than most birth

parents but only becoz I was forced to do so

by social workers, and truth be told thinking about the consequences in no way

prepares you for the actual

consequences. But even had I known them I would still have wanted tim becoz I

thought of him as my own flesh and

blood. Really my motives for adoption were as totally selfish as my motives for

having my biological children, I

wanted a child and tim was there. He is so much a part of me, just as are my

other two children, that I don't think of

him as my adotped son, as different to my other two, and sometimes have to catch

myself from thinking back to how he

was as a new born, becoz I didn't know him then, but I feel as tho I did. Its

like people who have never given birth

to a child can only begin to wonder at what its like to know that this child is

yours, and similarly when you adopt a

child, at least it was for me, its like I gave birth to him myself, I couldn't

love him less or more. I know its not

that straightforward for many adoptees, tim was a baby and that helped

enormaously, but its equally not that easy for

some birth parents. It took me 14 months to acknowledge my eldest son as really

mine. Anyway, its just one

perspective on adoption, really theres no difference between adoption and giving

birth, you can still get fat adopting,

(I did), you still get a legal certificate to prove parentage and it still takes

about 9 months! (give or take a year!)

sue wong

Nettie619@... wrote:

> I wanted to say I thank god for those of you , who found it in your heart to

> take a child with ds or any disability it is wonderful, that you took this

> position to care for these children, knowing full well probably for the most

> part of what you were getting into, so many kids sit in foster care awaiting

> a parent to care for them.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Guest guest

Isn't it wonderful!!! All these loving and courageous people who have

adopted kids with DS and other problems? Most of us just took what we got

but they had a choice. I really commend every one of them. Jessie

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Guest guest

In a message dated 3/5/2002 10:39:30 PM Eastern Standard Time,

sbntwong@... writes:

<< He is so much a part of me, just as are my other two children, that I

don't think of

him as my adotped son, as different to my other two, and sometimes have to

catch myself from thinking back to how he

was as a new born, becoz I didn't know him then, but I feel as tho I did. >>

That was so beautifully put, Sue. When it comes down to it, when they put a

baby in your arms he/she is a 'little stranger,' whether you just gave birth

to them or not. Before Liam was born it was very important to me to give

birth. After he was here I realized, how he found me didn't matter, just

that he was mine.

Kathy, Liam's mom (almost 4)

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • 3 weeks later...
Guest guest

In a message dated 3/24/02 3:24:10 PM Central Standard Time, mfroof@...

writes:

> Hi, Everyone......I have a few questions about adoption and know that there

> are a few of you who have been through the process. You are like family to

>

> me and I'd appreciate your input. Would some of you e-mail me privately

> and

> give me your thoughts? Put 'adoption' under the 'subject' as I delete a

> lot

> of mail that I don't know the addresses. I have been asked to adopt an 8

> y/o

> 'normal' girl.

>

> 1) Knowing our kids and their disabilities, would you feel it 'unjust' to

>

> bring a child into our home knowing that Gareth would probably keep telling

>

> her to " stop talking " like he does his brother .....who could care less

>

> about G's perks?

>

> 2) Considering the amount of time spent in Dr.s offices and school

> meetings

> for our kids, do adopted children require the same amount of

> attention.....meaning psych. visits and adjusting in schools. My concern

> is

> that she would be coming from the midwest.....would she be accepted in

> schools or teased about being adopted. She is aware of the fact that her

> parents have written her off.

>

> 3) What are some other concerns I need to be addressing....open mindedly?

>

> My heart tells me to 'go for it', my DH hasn't said 'yes or no', and my Mom

>

> has voiced her concern about my boys being 'jealous' down the road. She

> feels I have enough problems and stress in my life with Gareth.....why add

> to

> it?

>

> Thanks everyone....I appreciate it.

> Margaret

>

>

Margaret,

We adopted (ds). He came to us when he was almost 9 years old. He had

lots of anger and attachment issues. ds and autism aside his anger and fear

took at least two years to work through. He still has major trust issues and

some things that will never go away. Things that are beyond ds or even

autism.

I think the biggest thing the adoption would depend on is what the child

coming into your home is like. Has she been bounced around a lot? has she

failed to attach to other families?(it isn't always the family's fault) Has

she had abuse and neglect, esp. in her early childhood? An agency probably

isn't going to tell you she has an attachment problem but there are behaviors

and situations to look for.

If so then I would be concerned about attachment issues and finding resources

to address this. Not that this child is any less valuable a person than

another child. You need to be educated about her needs so you know if you can

truly help her and create a family around her. You also need to know that you

aren't putting your other children at risk.

Sorry to sound pessimistic. I'm really not but just want to make sure that

you have all the info you can get so everyone wins in the end.

Karyn

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Guest guest

I don't know anything about adoption so I can't help you there, but I believe

I would listen to your heart. It's possible that what your heart is telling

you is a message from God.

Carol

Trishasmom

She isn't typical, she's Trisha!

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Guest guest

Hi Margaret, I am not sure how to find your email addy so please

email me at magnussen@... and I will try to answer some of your

questions. k.

Cheryl,

mom to angel 6, ds-asd

> Hi, Everyone......I have a few questions about adoption and know

that there

> are a few of you who have been through the process. You are like

family to

> me and I'd appreciate your input. Would some of you e-mail me

privately and

> give me your thoughts? Put 'adoption' under the 'subject' as I

delete a lot

> of mail that I don't know the addresses. I have been asked to

adopt an 8 y/o

> 'normal' girl.

>

> 1) Knowing our kids and their disabilities, would you feel

it 'unjust' to

> bring a child into our home knowing that Gareth would probably keep

telling

> her to " stop talking " like he does his brother .....who could

care less

> about G's perks?

>

> 2) Considering the amount of time spent in Dr.s offices and school

meetings

> for our kids, do adopted children require the same amount of

> attention.....meaning psych. visits and adjusting in schools. My

concern is

> that she would be coming from the midwest.....would she be accepted

in

> schools or teased about being adopted. She is aware of the fact

that her

> parents have written her off.

>

> 3) What are some other concerns I need to be addressing....open

mindedly?

> My heart tells me to 'go for it', my DH hasn't said 'yes or no',

and my Mom

> has voiced her concern about my boys being 'jealous' down the

road. She

> feels I have enough problems and stress in my life with

Gareth.....why add to

> it?

>

> Thanks everyone....I appreciate it.

> Margaret

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Guest guest

Hi,

I also wanted to write the same thing,listen to your heart. I guess,

so far you've already made your decision but its just gathering the

info needed. I just brought this similar topic up to Kathy. How I

miss having a daughter and my dh had asked me if I wanted to adopt

one. Its still up in the air but my mind would still wonder how she

would of been if it was my own. I still have to get that out of my

mind. I'm concentrating on my health and of course being around for

my family needs and just maybe I could move on without ever having a

daughter. Prayers that you'll have an answer to guide you and your

family towards the direction that you would like to hear and many

Blessings for even considering this step. HUGS your way as I

understand it's a major decision. I know I'm proud of everyone that

have adopted and give them so much respect and credit for actually

doing it. I know you wanted this privately but since my dh brought it

up too, I just wanted to write my feelings about it. : )

Irma,13,DS/ASD

> I don't know anything about adoption so I can't help you there, but

I believe

> I would listen to your heart. It's possible that what your heart

is telling

> you is a message from God.

>

> Carol

> Trishasmom

> She isn't typical, she's Trisha!

>

>

>

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • 5 years later...

Hi everyone

All of our children came to us as babies--six weeks old (), two months

old (Kristi), ten months old () and five months old () so we do not

have any experience with older kids. My nieces also came to my sister in law as

babies. But just go with whatever your instincts are and whatever is in your

heart, coupled with a lot of prayer.

Good luck to you and keep everyone informed.

trier9@... wrote:

Hello,

I know every child with Down syndrome is very different and yet can at times

share some of the same qualities.

We have been asked to consider a little girl with Down syndrome to be a part

of our family.

She is 5 years old and has been abused/neglected. That is just heart

sickening to me.

Has anyone had any experience with adopting a child a little older with DS?

Hubby and I really want to make this work......eyes wide-opened though.

Thanks in advance.

Laurie

************************************** See what's new at http://www.aol.com

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Laurie,

Our son came to us at age 8. I had known him for a year and a half. I could

share our story but the reality is that every child is different. Our son has

mental health issues, how much was from the abuse and how much was genetic we

will never know.

Some children are more resilient than others and there is no rhyme or reason

to which kids come through better than others. Of course may disagree

with me on that one since she knows a bit more about foster care than I do.

All I can say is that you need to be prepared that you will need to do a lot

of bonding work and commit very large amounts of time if necessary.

Good luck and go with your heart,

Karyn

_Adoption _

(/message/52610;_ylc=X3oDMTJyMW4xNG9xBF9T\

Azk3MzU5NzE1BGdycElkAzIwODA2MzkEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1Mzk1ODM1BG1zZ0lk

AzUyNjEwBHNlYwNkbXNnBHNsawN2bXNnBHN0aW1lAzExOTA5NzkzNDM-)

Posted by: " trier9@... " _trier9@... _ (mailto:trier9@...?Subject=

Re:Adoption) _bfun777 _ (bfun777)

Thu Sep 27, 2007 8:21 am (PST)

Hello,

I know every child with Down syndrome is very different and yet can at times

share some of the same qualities.

We have been asked to consider a little girl with Down syndrome to be a part

of our family.

She is 5 years old and has been abused/neglected. That is just heart

sickening to me.

Has anyone had any experience with adopting a child a little older with DS?

Hubby and I really want to make this work......eyes wide-opened though.

Thanks in advance.

Laurie

************************************** See what's new at http://www.aol.com

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Laurie,

There are many older children with DS available for adoption- it saddens me

to see when people just want infants with DS while these kids are waiting

and waiting. So....learn what you can about her and find out what her needs

are. I would insist on a neuropsychological evaluation (can't remember

where you live - but there are neuropsychs and then there are neuropsychs)

and a full developmental workup before making any decisions. The

neuropsychologicals can really lead you into seeing what needs to happen to

help the child achieve their maximum potential.

I've never had a child with DS on my caseload (probably a good thing!), but

I've had many, many children with some type of neurodevelopmental disorders.

Abuse and Neglect does impair brain development. Neglect is the worse

(IMHO). There are wonderful things coming out regarding attachment. See

http://www.circleofsecurity.com and also do a google search on trauma

developmental disorder (Bessel A. van der Kolk). Circle of Security work

is also done on older kids. Parents lead the attachment work - not the

kids.

I also see alot of genetic predispositions in children and adults who were

adopted as infants. However, older child adoptions happen all the time and

it's a blessing for me to see how the children change once they are

adopted - it's almost as different as night and day in many cases. Even for

teenagers! Nurture also plays a strong role.

Good Luck and email me privately if you want to.

destructive behaviors. Approaching each of these problems piecemeal, rather

than asexpressions of a vast system of internal disorganization runs the

risk of loosing sight of the forest in favor of one tree. The traumatic

stress field has adopted the term " Complex Trauma " to describe theexperience

of multiple and/or chronic and prolonged, developmentally adverse

traumaticevents, most often of an interpersonal nature (e.g., sexual or

physical abuse, war, community violence) and early-life onset. These

exposures often occur within the child'scaregiving system and include

physical, emotional, and educational neglect and child maltreatment

beginning in early childhood (see Cook et al, this issue, Spinazzola et al

thisissue).

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Page 3

3In the Adverse Childhood Experiences (ACE) study by Kaiser Permanente and

the Center for Disease Control2, 17,337 adult HMO members responded to a

questionnaire about adverse childhood experiences, including childhood

abuse, neglect, and family dysfunction. 11.0% reported having been

emotionally abused as a child, 30.1% reported physical abuse, 19.9% sexual

abuse; 23.5% reported being exposed to family alcohol abuse, 18.8% to mental

illness, 12.5% witnessed their mothers being battered and 4.9% reported

family drug abuse. The ACE study showed that adverse childhood experiences

are vastly more common than recognized or acknowledged and that they have a

powerful relation to adult health a half-century later. The study

unequivocally confirmed earlier investigations that found a highly

significant relationship between adverse childhood experiences and

depression, suicide attempts, alcoholism, drug abuse, sexual promiscuity,

domesticviolence, cigarette smoking, obesity, physical inactivity, and

sexually transmitted diseases. In addition, the more adverse childhood

experiences reported, the more likely a person was to develop heart disease,

cancer, stroke, diabetes, skeletal fractures, and liver disease.Isolated

traumatic incidents tend to produce discrete conditioned behavioral

andbiological responses to reminders of the trauma, such as are captured in

the PTSD diagnosis. In contrast, chronic maltreatment or inevitable repeated

traumatization, such as occurs in children who are exposed to repeated

medical or surgical procedures, have a pervasive effects on the development

of mind and brain. Chronic trauma interferes with neurobiological

development (see article by Ford, this issue) and the capacity to

integratesensory, emotional and cognitive information into a cohesive whole.

Developmental trauma sets the stage for unfocused responses to subsequent

stress3leading to dramaticincreases in the use of medical, correctional,

social and mental health services4. People with childhood histories of

trauma, abuse and neglect make up almost our entire criminaljustice

population5: physical abuse and neglect are associated with a very high

rates of arrest for violent offenses. In one prospective study of victims of

abuse and neglect, almost half were arrested for non- traffic related

offenses by age 326. Seventy-five percent of perpetrators of child sexual

abuse report to have themselves been sexually

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Page 4

4abused during childhood7. These data suggest that most interpersonal trauma

on childrenis perpetuated by victims who grow up to become perpetrators

and/or repeat victims of violence. This tendency to repeat represents an

integral aspect of the cycle of violence inour society. Trauma, caregivers

and affect tolerance. Children learn to regulate their behavior by

anticipating their caregivers'responses to them8. This interaction allows

them to construct what Bowlby called " internal working models " 9. A child's

internal working models are defined by the internalization of the affective

and cognitive characteristics of their primary relationships.Because early

experiences occur in the context of a developing brain, neural

developmentand social interaction are inextricably intertwined. As Don

Tucker (p.199) has said: " For the human brain, the most important

information for successful development is conveyed by the social rather than

the physical environment. The baby brain must beginparticipating effectively

in the process of social information transmission that offers entry into the

culture10. " Early patterns of attachment inform the quality of information

processing throughout life11. Secure infants learn to trust both what they

feel and how they understand the world. This allows them to rely both on

their emotions and thoughts toreact to any given situation. Their experience

of feeling understood provides them with the confidence that they are

capable of making good things happen, and that if they do not know how to

deal with difficult situations they can find people who can help them find a

solution. Secure children learn a complex vocabulary to describe their

emotions (such as love, hate, pleasure, disgust and anger). This allows them

to communicate how they feel and to formulate efficient response strategies.

They spend more time describing physiological states such as hunger and

thirst, as well as emotional states than maltreatedchildren12. Under most

conditions parents are able to help their distressed children restore asense

of safety and control: the security of the attachment bond mitigates against

trauma-induced terror. When trauma occurs in the presence of a supportive,

if helpless, caregiver, the child's response is likely to mimic that of the

parent - the more disorganized the

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Page 5

5parent, the more disorganized the child13. However, if the distress is

overwhelming, or when the caregivers themselves are the source of the

distress, children are unable tomodulate their arousal. This causes a

breakdown in their capacity to process, integrate and categorize what is

happening: at the core of traumatic stress is a breakdown in the capacity to

regulate internal states. If the distress does not let up, children

dissociate: the relevant sensations, affects and cognitions cannot be

associated (they are dissociated intosensory fragments14) and, as a result,

these children cannot comprehend what is happening or devise and execute

appropriate plans of action. When caregivers are emotionally absent,

inconsistent, frustrating, violent, intrusive, or neglectful, children are

liable to become intolerably distressed and unlikely to develop a sense that

the external environment is able to provide relief. Thus, children with

insecure attachment patterns have trouble relying on others to help them,

whileunable to regulate their emotional states by themselves. As a result,

they experienceexcessive anxiety, anger and longings to be taken care of.

These feelings may become so extreme as to precipitate dissociative states

or self-defeating aggression. Spaced out and hyperaroused children learn to

ignore either what they feel (their emotions), or what they perceive (their

cognitions).. When children are unable to achieve a sense of control and

stability they becomehelpless. If they are unable to grasp what is going on

and unable do anything about it to change it, they go immediately from

(fearful) stimulus to (fight/flight/freeze) responsewithout being able to

learn from the experience. Subsequently, when exposed to reminders of a

trauma (sensations, physiological states, images, sounds, situations) they

tend to behave as if they were traumatized all over again - as a

catastrophe15. Many problems of traumatized children can be understood as

efforts to minimize objective threat and to regulate their emotional

distress16. Unless caregivers understand the nature of such re-enactments

they are liable to label the child as " oppositional " ,

'rebellious " , " unmotivated " ,

and " antisocial " . The dynamics of childhood trauma.Young children, still

" embedded " in the here-and-now and lacking the capacity to see themselves in

the perspective of the larger context, have no choice but to see

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Page 6

6themselves as the center of the universe: everything that happens is

directly related to their own sensations. Development consists of learning

to master and " own " one's experiences and to learn to experience the present

as part of one's personal experience over time17. Piaget called this

" decentration " :

moving from being one's reflexes,movements and sensations to having them.

Predictability and continuity are critical in order to develop a good sense

of causality and for learning to categorize experience. A child needs to

develop categories in order to be able to place any particular experience in

a larger context. Only when they can do this will they be able to evaluate

what is currently going on and entertain a rangeof options with which they

can affect the outcome of events. Imagining being able to playan active role

leads to problem-focused coping15. If children are exposed to unmanageable

stress, and if the caregiver does not take over the function of modulating

the child's arousal, as occurs when children exposed to family dysfunction

or violence, the child will be unable to organize and categorize its

experiences in a coherent fashion. Unlike adults, children do not have the

option to report, move away or otherwise protect themselves- they depend on

their caregivers for their very survival. When trauma emanates from within

the family children experience acrisis of loyalty and organize their

behavior to survive within their families. Beingprevented from articulating

what they observe and experience, traumatized children willorganize their

behavior around keeping the secret, deal with their helplessness with

compliance or defiance, and accommodate in any way they can to entrapment in

abusive or neglectful situations18. When professionals are unaware of

children's need to adjust totraumatizing environments and expect that

children should behave in accordance with adult standards of

self-determination and autonomous, rational choices, these maladaptive

behaviors tend to inspire revulsion and rejection. Ignorance of this fact is

likely to lead to labeling and stigmatizing children for behaviors that are

meant to insuresurvival. Being left to their own devices leaves chronically

traumatized children withdeficits in emotional self-regulation. This results

in problems with self-definition asreflected by 1) a lack of a continuous

sense of self, 2) poorly modulated affect and

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Page 7

7impulse control, including aggression against self and others, and 3)

uncertainty about the reliability and predictability of others, which is

expressed as distrust, suspiciousness, andproblems with intimacy, and which

results in social isolation19. Chronically traumatized children tend to

suffer from distinct alterations in states of consciousness, with amnesia,

hypermnesia, dissociation, depersonalization and derealization, flashbacks

and nightmares of specific events, school problems, difficulties in

attention regulation, withorientation in time and space and they suffer from

sensorimotor developmental disorders.They often are literally are " out of

touch " with their feelings, and often have no language to describe internal

states20. Lacking a sense of predictability interferes with the development

of object constancy - a lack of inner representations of their own inner

world or their surroundings. As a result they lack a good sense of cause and

effect and of their own contributions to what happens to them. Without

internal maps to guide them, they act, instead of plan, andshow their wishes

in their behaviors, rather than discussing what they want 15. Unable to

appreciate clearly who they, or others are, they have problems enlisting

other people as allies on their behalf. Other people are sources of terror

or pleasure, but rarely fellow-human beings with their own sets of needs and

desires. They have difficulty appreciating novelty; without a map to compare

and contrast, anything new is potentially threatening. What is familiar

tends to be experienced as safer, even if it is a predictable source

ofterror15. These children rarely spontaneously discuss their fears and

traumas, and they have little insight into the relationship between what

they do, what they feel and what has happened to them. They tend to

communicate the nature of their traumatic past byrepeating it in the form of

interpersonal enactments, in their play and in their fantasylives.Childhood

trauma and psychiatric illness.Posttraumatic Stress Disorder (PTSD) is not

the most common psychiatric diagnosis in children with histories of chronic

trauma (see Cook et al, this issue). For example, in one study of 364 abused

children21the most common diagnoses in order of frequency were separation

anxiety disorder, oppositional defiant disorder, phobic

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Page 8

8disorders, PTSD, and ADHD. Numerous studies of traumatized children find

problems with unmodulated aggression and impulse control22, 23, attentional

and dissociative problems (e.g.,24), and difficulty negotiating

relationships with caregivers, peers and, subsequently, intimate partners25.

Histories of childhood physical and sexual assaults are associated with a

host of other psychiatric diagnoses in adolescence and adulthood: substance

abuse, borderline and antisocial personality, as well as eating,

dissociative, affective, somatoform, cardiovascular, metabolic,

immunological, and sexual disorders26. The results of the DSM IV Field Trial

suggested that trauma has its most pervasive impact during the first decade

of life and becomes more circumscribed, i.e.,more like " pure " PTSD, with

age27. The diagnosis PTSD is not developmentally sensitive and does not

adequately describe the impact of exposure to childhood trauma on the

developing child. Because multiply abused infants and children often

experiencedevelopmental delays across a broad spectrum, including cognitive,

language, motor, andsocialization skills28they tend to display very complex

disturbances with a variety of different, often fluctuating, presentations.

However, because there currently is no other diagnostic entity that

describes the pervasive impact of trauma on child development these children

are given a range of " comorbid " diagnoses, as if they occurred independently

from the PTSD symptoms, none of which do justice to the spectrum of problems

of traumatized children, and none of which provide guidelines on what is

needed for effective prevention and intervention. By relegating the full

spectrum of trauma-related problems to seemingly unrelated " comorbid "

conditions, fundamental trauma-related disturbances may be lost to

scientific investigation, and clinicians may run the risk of applying

treatment approaches that arenot helpful. Towards a diagnosis of

Developmental Trauma Disorder.The question of how to best organize the very

complex emotional, behavioral and neurobiological sequelae of childhood

trauma has vexed clinicians for several decades.Because the DSM IV has a

diagnosis for adult onset trauma, PTSD, this label often isapplied to

traumatized children, as well. However, the majority of traumatized children

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Page 9

9do not meet diagnostic criteria for PTSD29(see Cook et al, this issue), and

PTSD cannot capture the multiplicity of exposures over critical

developmental periods. Moreover, thePTSD diagnosis does not capture the

developmental impact of childhood trauma: thecomplex disruptions of affect

regulation, the disturbed attachment patterns, the rapid behavioral

regressions and shifts in emotional states, the loss of autonomous

strivings, the aggressive behavior against self and others, the failure to

achieve developmentalcompetencies; the loss of bodily regulation in the

areas of sleep, food and self-care; the altered schemas of the world; the

anticipatory behavior and traumatic expectations; themultiple somatic

problems, from gastrointestinal distress to headaches; the apparent lackof

awareness of danger and resulting self endangering behaviors; the

self-hatred and self-blame and the chronic feelings of

ineffectiveness.Interestingly, many forms of interpersonal trauma, in

particular psychological maltreatment, neglect, separation from caregivers,

traumatic loss, and inappropriatesexual behavior, do not necessarily meet

the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual, Fourth Edition (DSM-IV) " Criterion A "

definition for a traumatic event, which requires, in part, an experience

involving " actual or threatened death or serious injury, or a threat to the

physical integrity of self or others " (p. 427). Children exposed to these

common types of interpersonal adversity thus typically would not qualify for

a PTSD diagnosis unless they also were exposed to experiences or events that

qualify as " traumatic, " even if they have symptoms that would otherwise

warrant a PTSD diagnosis. This finding has several implications for the

diagnosis and treatment of traumatized children and

adolescents.Non-Criterion A forms of childhood trauma exposure--such as

psychological/emotionalabuse and traumatic loss--have been demonstrated to

be associated with PTSD symptomsand self-regulatory impairments in children

30and into adulthood31. Thus, classification of traumatic events may need to

be defined more broadly, and treatment may need to

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Page 10

10address directly the sequelae of these interpersonal adversities, given

their prevalence and potentially severe negative effects on children's

development and emotional health.The Complex Trauma taskforce of the

National Child Traumatic Stress Networkhas been concerned about the need for

a more precise diagnosis for children withcomplex histories. In an attempt

to more clearly delineate what these children suffer fromand to serve as a

guide for rational therapeutics this taskforce has started to conceptualizea

new diagnosis provisionally called: Developmental Trauma Disorder1. This

proposed diagnosis is organized around the issue of triggered dysregulation

in response to traumatic reminders, stimulus generalization, and the

anticipatory organization of behavior to prevent the recurrence of the

trauma impact. -Table 1 here- This provisional " Developmental Trauma

Disorder " is predicated on the notionthat multiple exposures to

interpersonal trauma, such as abandonment, betrayal, physicalor sexual

assaults or witnessing domestic violence have consistent and predictable

consequences that affect many areas of functioning. These experiences

engender 1) intense affects such as rage, betrayal, fear, resignation,

defeat and shame. and 2) efforts to ward off the recurrence of those

emotions, including the avoidance of experiences thatprecipitate them or

engaging in behaviors that convey a subjective sense of control in theface

of potential threats.. . These children tend to behaviorally reenact their

traumaseither as perpetrators, in aggressive or sexual acting out against

other children, or in frozen avoidance reactions. Their physiological

dysregulation may lead to multiple somatic problems, such as headaches and

stomachaches in response to fearful and helpless emotions. Persistent

sensitivity to reminders interferes with the development of

emotionregulation and causes long-term emotional dysregulation and

precipitous behavior changes. Their over- and underreactivity is manifested

on multiple levels: emotional,1The members of the NCTSN Developmental Trauma

Disorders taskforce are: lene Cloitre, n Ford, Lieberman,

Putnam, Pynoos, Glenn Saxe, Scheeringa,ph

Spinazzola and Bessel van der Kolk, with input from DeBellis, Allan

Steinbergand Teicher.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Page 11

11physical, behavioral, cognitive and relational. They have fearful,

enraged, or avoidantemotional reactions to minor stimuli that would have no

significant impact on secure children. After having become aroused these

children have a great deal of difficultyrestoring homeostasis and returning

to baseline. Insight and understanding about the origins of their reactions

seems to have little effect. In addition to the conditioned physiological

and emotional responses to reminders characteristic of PTSD complexly

traumatized children develop a view of the world that incorporates their

betrayal and hurt. They anticipate and expect the trauma to recur andrespond

with hyperactivity, aggression, defeat or freeze responses to minor stresses

Their cognition is affected by reminders: they tend to become

confused,dissociated and disoriented when faced with stressful stimuli. They

easily misinterpret events in the direction of a return of trauma and

helplessness which causes them to be constantly on guard, frightened and

over- reactive. Finally, expectations of a return of the trauma permeate

their relationships. This is expressed as negative self-attributions, loss

of trust in caretakers and loss of the belief that some somebody will look

after them and making feel safe. They tend to lose the expectation that they

will be protected andact accordingly. As a result, they organize their

relationships around the expectation or prevention of abandonment or

victimization. This is expressed as excessive clinging, compliance,

oppositional defiance and distrustful behavior, and they may be

preoccupiedwith retribution and revenge. All of these problems are expressed

in dysfunction in multiple areas offunctioning: educational, familial, peer

relationships, problems with the legal system, and problems in maintaining

jobs.Treatment Implications (see also Cook et al, this issue, and Blaustein

et al, this issue).In the treatment of traumatized children and adolescents

there often is a painfuldilemma of whether to keep them in the care of

people or institutions who are sources of hurt and threat, or whether to

play into abandonment and separation distress by taking the child away from

familiar environments and people to whom they are intensely attached,but who

are likely to cause further substantial damage15.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Page 12

12Establishing safety and competence. Complexly traumatized children need to

be helped to engage their attention in pursuits that 1) do not remind them

of trauma-related triggers, and 2) that give them a sense of pleasure and

mastery. Safety, predictability and " fun " is essential for the establishment

of the capacity to observe what is going on, put it into a larger context

and initiate physiological and motoric self-regulation. Before addressing

anything else these children need to be helped how to react differently

fromtheir habitual fight/flight/freeze reactions15. Only after children

develop the capacity to focus on pleasurable activities without becoming

disorganized do they have a chance to develop the capacity to play with

other children, engage in simple group activities and deal with more complex

issues.Dealing with traumatic reenactments. After having been multiply

traumatized the imprint of the trauma becomes lodgedin many aspects of the

child's make-up. This is manifested in multiple ways: e.g. asfearful

reactions, aggressive and sexual acting out, avoidance and uncontrolled

emotional reactions. Unless this tendency to repeat the trauma is

recognized, the response of the environment is likely to replay of the

original traumatizing, abusive, but familiar,relationships. Because these

children are prone to experience anything novel, includingrules and other

protective interventions, as punishments, they tend to regard their teachers

and therapists who try to establish safety, as perpetrators15. Attention to

the body: integration and mastery. Mastery is most of all a physical

experience: the feeling of being in charge, calmand able to engage in

focused efforts to accomplished the goals one sets for oneself. These

children experience the trauma-related hyperarousal and numbing on a deeply

somatic level. Their hyperarousal immediately apparent in their inability to

relax and bytheir high degree of irritability. Children with " frozen "

reactions need to be helped to re-awaken their curiosity and to explore

their surroundings. They avoid engagement in activities because any task may

unexpectedly turn into a traumatic trigger. Neutral, " fun " tasks and physical

games can provide them with knowledge of what it feels like to be relaxed

and to feel a sense of physical mastery.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Page 13

13At the center of the therapeutic work with terrified children is helping

themrealize that they are repeating their early experiences and helping them

find new ways of coping by developing new connections between their

experiences, emotions and physical reactions. Unfortunately, all too often,

medications take the place of helping childrenacquire the skills necessary

to deal with and master their uncomfortable physicalsensations. In order to

" process " their traumatic experiences these children first need to develop a

safe space where they can " look at " their traumas without repeating them

andmaking them real once again15.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Page 14

14Table 1Developmental Trauma Disorder A. Exposure1. Multiple or chronic

exposure to one or more forms of developmentally adverseinterpersonal trauma

(abandonment, betrayal, physical assaults, sexual assaults, threats to

bodily integrity, coercive practices, emotional abuse, witnessing violence

and death). 2. Subjective Experience (rage, betrayal, fear, resignation,

defeat, shame). B. Triggered pattern of repeated dysregulation in response

to trauma cuesDysregulation (high or low) in presence of cues. Changes

persist and do not return tobaseline; not reduced in intensity by conscious

awareness..Affective.Somatic (physiological, motoric, medical).Behavioral

(e.g. re-enactment, cutting).Cognitive (thinking that it is happening again,

confusion, dissociation,depersonalization)..Relational (clinging,

oppositional, distrustful, compliant).. Self-attribution (self-hate and

blame).C. Persistently Altered Attributions and Expectancies .Negative

self-attribution.Distrust protective caretaker.Loss of expectancy of

protection by others.Loss of trust in social agencies to protect.Lack of

recourse to social justice/retribution.Inevitability of future victimization

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Page 15

15D. Functional Impairment.Educational.Familial.Peer.Legal.Vocational

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Page 16

16REFERENCES:1Child Maltreatment 2001: Reports from the States to the

National Child Abuse and Neglect Data System, Children's Bureau, Agency for

Children and Families, 2003 2Felitti VJ, Anda RF, Nordernberg D, et al.

Relationship of childhood abuse to many of the leading causes of death in

adults: the adverse childhood experiences (ACE) study. Am J Prev Med. 1998;

14(4): 245-258. 3Cicchetti D, Toth, SL. Developmental psychopathology and

disorders of affect. In: Cicchetti D, Cohen DJ, eds. Developmental

psychopathology, Vol. 2: Risk, disorder, and adaptation. Wiley series on

personality processes . New York: Wiley & Sons; 1995: 369-420.

4Drossman DA, Leserman J, Nachman G, et al. Sexual and physical abuse

inwomen with functional or organic gastrointestinal disorders. Ann Intern

Med. 1990; 113(11): 828-833. 5Teplin LA, Abram KM, McClelland GM, Dulcan MK,

Mericle AA. Psychiatric disorders in youth in juvenile detention. Arch Gen

Psychiatry. 2002; 59(12):1133-1143. 6Widom, CS, Maxfield MG (1996). A

prospective examination of risk for violence among abused and neglected

children. Ann N Y Acad Sci. 1996; 794 :224-237. 7Romano E, De Luca, RV.

Exploring the relationship between childhood sexual abuse and adult sexual

perpetration. Journal of Family Violence. 1997; 12(1): 85-98. 8Schore A.

Affect regulation and the origin of the self: the neurobiology of emotional

development. Hillsdale, NJ: Lawrence Erlbaum Associates; 1994.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Page 17

179Bowlby, J. Attachment and loss (Vol. 3). New York, NY: Basic Books; 1980.

10Tucker DM. Developing emotions and coritical networks. In MR Gunnar MR,

CA, eds. Minnesota symposium on Child Psychology Vol 24.Hillsdale

NJ,Earlbaum; 1992: 75-128. 11Crittenden PM. Treatment of anxious attachment

in infancy and early childhood. Dev Psychopathology. 1992; 4: 575-602.

12Cicchetti D, White J. Emotion and developmental psychopathology. In: Stein

N, Leventhal B, Trebasso T, eds. Psychological and biological approaches to

emotion. Hillsdale, NJ. Erlbaum; 1990: 359-382. 13Browne A, Finkelhor D.

Impact of Child Abuse: A review of the research. Psychol Bull. 1986; 99:

66-77. 14van der Kolk BA, Fisler R. Dissociation and the fragmentary nature

of traumatic memories: Overview and exploratory study. J Trauma Stress.

1995; 9: 505-525. 15Streeck-Fischer A, van der Kolk B. Down will come baby,

cradle and all:Diagnostic and therapeutic implications of chronic trauma on

child development. Aust NZ J Psychiatry. 2000; 34(6):903-918. 16Pynoos RS,

Frederick CJ, Nader K, et al. Life threat and posttraumatic stress in school

age children. Arch Gen Psychiatry. 1987; 44:1057-1063. 17Kegan R. The

evolving self. Cambridge, MA. Harvard University Press; 1982. 18Summit RC.

The child sexual abuse accommodation syndrome. Child Abuse Negl. 1983; 7:

177-193.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Page 18

1819Cole PM, Putnam FW. Effect of incest on self and social functioning:

developmental psychopathology perspective. J Consult Clin Psychol. 1992;

60(2); 174-184. 20Cicchetti D, White J. (1990). Emotion and developmental

psychopathology. In:Stein N, Leventhal B, Trebasso T, eds. Psychological and

biological approaches to emotion. Hillsdale, NJ. Erlbaum; 1990: 359-382.

21Ackerman PT, Newton JEO, McPherson WB, JG, Dykman RA (1998).

Prevalence of post traumatic stress disorder and other psychiatric diagnoses

in three groups of abused children (sexual, physical, and both). Child Abuse

Negl. 1998: 22(8): 759-774. 22 DO, Shanok SS. Perinatal difficulties,

head and face trauma, and child abuse in the medical histories of seriously

delinquent children. Am J Psychiatry. 1981; 136 (4A): 419-423 23Steiner H,

IG, s Z. Posttraumatic stress disorder in incarceratedjuvenile

delinquents. J Am Acad Child Adolesc Psychiatry. 1997; 36(3): 357-365.

24Teicher MH, Andersen SL, Polcari A, CM, Navalta CP, Kim DM. The

neurobiological consequences of early stress and childhood maltreatment.

NeurosciBiobehav Rev. 2003; 27(1-2): 33-44. 25Schneider-Rosen K, Cicchetti

D. The relationship between affect and cognition in maltreated infants:

Quality of attachment and the development of visual self-recognition. Child

Dev. 1984; 55: 648-658.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Page 19

1926van der Kolk BA. The neurobiology of childhood trauma and abuse.

ChildAdolesc Psychiatric Clin N Am. 2003: 12: 293-317. 27van der Kolk, BA,

Roth S, Pelcovitz D, Mandel FS, Spinazzola J. Disorders of Extreme Stress:

the empirical foundation of a complex adaptation to trauma. J TraumaStress.

2005; in press 28Culp RE, Heide J, MT. Maltreated children's

developmental scores:treatment vs. non treatment. Child Abuse Negl. 1987;

11(1): 29-34. 29Kiser LJ, Heston J, Millsap PA, Pruitt DC. Physical and

Sexual Abuse inChildhood: relationship with posttraumatic stress disorder. J

Am Acad Child Adolesc Psychiatry. 1991; 30: 776-783. 30Basile KC, Arias I,

Desai S, MP. The differential association of intimate partner

physical, sexual, psychological, and stalking violence and posttraumatic

stress symptoms in a nationally representative sample of women. J Trauma

Stress. 2004; 17(5):413-421 31Higgins DJ, McCabe MP: Maltreatment and family

dysfunction in childhood and the subsequent adjustment of children and

adults. Journal of Family Violence 2003;18(2):107-120 .

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • 1 year later...

Hopefully it should not. I do not have experience with international

adoption to know for sure. I know that if you adopt within the US they have

to honor your exemption. It is probably based on the country that you adopt

from and what they expect from the family. My best guess is that it wont be

a problem.

On Tue, Aug 25, 2009 at 5:18 AM, shhwitness <n-bennett@...> wrote:

>

>

> We have three children and do not vaccinate. We are considering adopting a

> 12yo girl from Colombia (South America). My question is whether my kids not

> being vaccinated will affect our homestudy. Anyone been there? Any resources

> for me?

>

>

>

>

>

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Cant help you very much except that my husband is Colombian. I know that

Colombians are very happy people as a country and take pride in their language

and culture. If you have a specific question maybe

I can get an answer for you.

________________________________

From: shhwitness <n-bennett@...>

Vaccinations

Sent: Tuesday, August 25, 2009 5:18:58 AM

Subject: adoption

We have three children and do not vaccinate. We are considering adopting a 12yo

girl from Colombia (South America). My question is whether my kids not being

vaccinated will affect our homestudy. Anyone been there? Any resources for me?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You are posting as a guest. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

Loading...
×
×
  • Create New...