Cell phones

[Guest guest]

Rich,

Thank you for your well thought out email. I agree with you

completely and I sincerely appreciate your comments. You are right

about the politics behind this. It seems that almost every researcher

that has come out with research demonstrating that these things are

indeed extremely dangerous has been bashed and harrassed with the

attempt to discredit by a group of professional " debunkers " working

in both the military and the industry. I understand that many of

these scientists have had their fundings cut and a number have been

forced to leave their univeristy positions.

My area has been in what have been called the " soft " sciences -

mainly psychology and education - and I remember when I was a

university student the emerging paradigm at the time was to follow

the so-called " hard " sciences in trying to quantify everything with

statistics, which I couldn't help but feel was a major mistake. I

believe Einstein once said " Everything that can be counted does not

necessarily count; everything that counts cannot necessarily be

counted. "

I guess my feeling was that in the real world, there are just too

many factors acting on us to affect our individual behavior and that

in the real world no two incidents will ever repeat themselves -

hence the ever unfolding novelty in the world. I looked at chaos

theory a bit and I believe the paradigm here backs up what I am

saying. Thus, what happens in the real world is much different than

in a laboratory or in a test tube where the factors can be

controlled. (And maybe that is the problem with this kind of mindset

- the need to control.) Probably the best we can do is make

predictions.

I also believe that someone once asked Einsten what constitutes

scientific proof and he replied something like " I am sorry young man,

that is much too difficult of a question for me to answer. " In this

day and age, what constitutes " scientific proof " seems to be what the

big corporations want you to believe is scientifically " proven. "

On the other hand, while I don't believe in " scientific proof " per

se, I think that we can produce enough evidence to show that one

thing does and will affect another - a cause and effect relationship.

Subsequently, it seems to be that there is more than enough evidence

out there to warrant action on this issue. Unfortunately, when we add

in the factors of economics, politics, manipulation, and delusion,

then the effect is that this probably will not happen until many many

more people get sick and people eventually start to put the pieces of

the puzzle together.

I wasn't familar with C.P. Snow's talk but I think that you probably

would be very interested in reading A. Kolb's book

" Experiential Learning: Experience As the Source of Leaning and

Development " since he takes this to a completely different level:

" When one examines academic disciplines in the four major groupings

we have identified - the social professions, the science-based

professions, humanities/social science,, and natural science/

mathematics - it becomes apparent that what constitutes " valid "

[italics mine] knowledge in these four groupings differs widely.

....Synthetic knowledge structures learned via apprehension are

associated with qualitative, humanistic fields, whereas analytic

knowledge structures learned via comprehension are related to the

quantitative scientific fields, dispersive knowledge structures

learned via extension are related to the professions and applied

sciences, and integrative knowledge structures learned via intention

are related to the basic academic disciplines. "

" p. 123

While it is necessary to a degree to have all these scientists (the

analysts) out there barking up their trees, it is also necessary to

have those who can also look at the whole forest - the big picture -

and put the pieces together (the synthesists). Unfortunately, it

seems that we have more of the former than the later.

Regards,

paul doyon

> >

> > Rich,

> >

> > I wouldn't get too caught up in the conceptions of things because

> > sometimes they can blind us to what is actually real - what is

> > actually in front of our eyes, what we feel, i.e, our

perceptions.

> > There are two ways of knowing the world - thru our apprehensions

> and

> > our comprehensions. Unfortunately, people are sometimes blinded

by

> > their comprehensions. But for people who are electrosensitive it

> is

> > the perceptions that reign. My personal experience is that I can

> > tolerate EMFs much better since I chelated the metals out of my

> body.

> > I don't need any so-called " scientific " proof for this. I know

> what I

> > feel and I know what I apprehend and this forms the basis for my

> > conceptions and my comprehensions. I hope that makes sense. Sorry

> if

> > it sounds pedantic.

> >

> > Peace,

> >

> > paul

>

[Guest guest]

Rich wrote:

_Anyway, , I'm not your enemy. (Now that you know I was in Army

research and also that I worked on nuclear waste, you may have your

doubts about that!) I just think that you would benefit by getting

some scientific support, if science is not your bag, personally.

Otherwise, I think the number of allies you will have in your cause

will be limited._

Hi Rich,

No, I never perceived you as such.

Sorry if I came on a bit strong - I think I am in the " reactive "

phase after receiving so much slack from a number of people (not on

this list thank God) about my posts. There was a book called " Our

Stolen Future " by Theo Coleborn, that was brilliant in the respect

that it was able to look at all these studies and put together the

pieces creating a clear picture of what all these chemicals are doing

to our bodies. Certainly made me think twice about eating fish -

though I think little has changed with regards to protecting the

environment ( especially with the present administration, I might

add). So I think what we need now is a good book tying all the

research together on how microwaves are affecting our bodies and the

environment. Both my apprehensions and my comprehensions tell me it

isn't good.

At any rate, it sounds to me like you are trying to fix problems

created by others (while my view would be not to create the problems

in the first place, but...).

Out of curiosity, though, why the interest in CFS? Many researchers

(e.g. Nicolson, Goldberg) have delved into this area because a family

member had become afflicted with this condition. Of course, my

personal interest had to do with my own experience with it.

Regards,

paul

[Guest guest]

Rich,

I was just curious - since you have worked with nuclear waste - if you were

familiar with the symptoms of radiation poisoning, e.g. people working in

nuclear power plants who were exposed to an inordinate amount of radiation

or people that were exposed to nuclear plant accidents like Chernobyl or

Three Mile Island. (I understand that in the later case there was a cover-up

about the effects - e.g. deformed fetuses, etc.)

I guess what I am getting at here is whether there is any similarity here with

the symptoms of CFS?

peace,

paul

[Guest guest]

,

You mention nuclear waste. It got me to thinking, do you know if anyone has

done a geographical study of CFS and fibro patients? Is there any kind of trend

based on nuclear power plants? I ask because I live in Toledo, OH. If you

aren't familiar, we have 2 large nuclear power plants within a 50(?) mile

radius. ( Bessy and sburg). I just wonder if this could be in any

way related to my illness.

Thanks,

Dawn

Rich, I was just curious - since you have worked with nuclear waste - if you

were familiar with the symptoms of radiation poisoning, e.g. people working in

nuclear power plants who were exposed to an inordinate amount of radiation or

people that were exposed to nuclear plant accidents like Chernobyl or Three Mile

Island. (I understand that in the later case there was a cover-up about the

effects - e.g. deformed fetuses, etc.) I guess what I am getting at here is

whether there is any similarity here with the symptoms of CFS? peace, paul

It’s the future of Hotmail: Try Windows Live Mail beta

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[Guest guest]

Hi, .

>

> _Anyway, , I'm not your enemy.

>

> Hi Rich,

>

> No, I never perceived you as such.

***I'm glad.

>

> Sorry if I came on a bit strong - I think I am in the " reactive "

> phase after receiving so much slack from a number of people (not

on

> this list thank God) about my posts.

***I understand.

There was a book called " Our

> Stolen Future " by Theo Coleborn, that was brilliant in the respect

> that it was able to look at all these studies and put together the

> pieces creating a clear picture of what all these chemicals are

doing

> to our bodies. Certainly made me think twice about eating fish -

> though I think little has changed with regards to protecting the

> environment ( especially with the present administration, I might

> add). So I think what we need now is a good book tying all the

> research together on how microwaves are affecting our bodies and

the

> environment. Both my apprehensions and my comprehensions tell me

it

> isn't good.

***That would be an interesting book.

>

> At any rate, it sounds to me like you are trying to fix problems

> created by others (while my view would be not to create the

problems

> in the first place, but...).

***I would prefer that, too, but I wasn't born into that kind of

world.

> Out of curiosity, though, why the interest in CFS? Many

researchers

> (e.g. Nicolson, Goldberg) have delved into this area because a

family

> member had become afflicted with this condition. Of course, my

> personal interest had to do with my own experience with it.

***I got started by trying to help a woman who was a friend of my

wife and myself, about ten years ago. I thought it would be simpler

than it turned out to be. I have an obsessive nature, and don't

like to give up on trying to solve a problem, once I've started on

it (I have to be very careful what I start, for that reason). I

also find CFS fascinating and tantalizing. I know the answers are

there. They just need to be found. Along the way, I've become

acquainted with a large number of people who have CFS. I like them,

and I want to see them become well. I'm also a Christian, and

helping others is something I get a big bang out of. I'm retired,

and this gives me something more interesting to do than sit in a

rocking chair. I probably have other motives that I don't even

recognize. Accurately knowing one's own motives can be elusive,

because one can easily deceive oneself.

>

> Regards,

>

> paul

>

***Best wishes,

***Rich

[Guest guest]

Hi, .

Most of the information about that has come from people who have

received radiation for cancer therapy. They are easier to study,

because there are a lot more of them, and they have received

carefully measured doses. A lot of them do have fatigue, and the

mechanism isn't very well understood. I received radiation therapy

myself when I had rectal cancer about 8 years ago, and I did

experience quite a bit of fatigue. (Of course, I was getting

chemotherapy as well, and that really wipes you out, too.) There are

a few papers in the literature about it, mostly from Italy. Here's

an abstract of a recent one:

" Rays. 2005 Apr-Jun;30(2):197-203.

Radiotherapy-related fatigue: incidence and predictive factors.

Turriziani A, Mattiucci GC, Montoro C, Ferro M, Maurizi F, Smaniotto

D, Cellini N.

Cattedra di Radioterapia, Universita Cattolica del S. Cuore,

Policlinico A. Gemelli, Roma, Italy. aturriziani@...

Radiotherapy-induced fatigue is a common early and chronic side-

effect of irradiation, reported in up to 80% and 30% of patients

respectively during radiation therapy and at follow-up visits.The

factors that cause fatigue and the exact mechanisms responsible for

its production, sustenance, or amelioration are not well understood.

Multiple correlates and mechanisms have been proposed in the

literature and integrated within models of cancer-related fatigue. A

multidimensional approach in clinical practice is proposed based on

the evaluation of cancer-related fatigue, and on the development of

an adequate management. The monitoring system of fatigue used by the

authors is presented. "

It's true that the radiation exposure was considerable to many

people from the Chernobyl accident. That was a graphite moderated

reactor without a containment building. Because of a combination of

economic expediency, design blunders, and foolhardy decisions about

doing experiments on a power reactor, the graphite caught fire and

cooked off large amounts of fission products, exposing large areas

to radioactive material.

The Three Mile Island accident was quite different. That was a

water-moderated reactor with a pressure vessel and a containment

building. It was designed and operated under much more stringent

regulations, though still not what they should have been. The

accident was caused by a steam pressure relief valve sticking open,

and operators who were not well enough trained to understand what

was happening. Part of the reactor core melted, and radionuclides

were released to the inside of the containment building, but the

only releases from the containment building to the environment

around the plant were noble gases, such as krypton and xenon.

Radionuclides of these gases are not very hazardous, because if

someone inhales them, they are soon exhaled, because they are not

chemically reactive and therefore do not become incorporated in the

body. Doses to people were quite small, and there weren't any

measurable effects. I don't think there is any truth to there being

a cover-up of effects. For one thing, it would be very difficult to

cover up something like that. Everyone knew about the accident, and

lots of people study phenomena like that. Nuclear power has lots of

detractors, I think the funding would be available, and there are

lots of journals that would publish evidence of something like

that. The fact is that the doses were too small to do much. For

doses less than about 10 Rems (0.1 Sievert), there's no observable

effect, even in long-term cancer rates. I went to a conference in

Snowbird, Utah, shortly after that accident, and the purpose was to

try to understand why the releases were so small. People had

expected much worse from an accident of that type, and the Nuclear

Regulatory Commission had required large evacuation areas around

nuclear plants in the event of accidents, for that reason. It had

been expected that there would be a significant release of

radioactive iodine from that type of core-melt accident, but there

wasn't. The reason was that because it was water-moderated and

cooled, there was plenty of water around, and the iodine remained in

the water as dissolved iodide and iodate. People had not done their

chemistry correctly when they modeled the potential accidents. At

Chernobyl, on the other hand, trhe iodine went off as molecular

iodine gas, along with a host of other radioactive species. The

graphite burned very hot and for a long time. It would have been

difficult to design a worse disperser of radionuclides if you

tried. That was very sad.

Rich

>

> Rich,

>

> I was just curious - since you have worked with nuclear waste - if

you were

> familiar with the symptoms of radiation poisoning, e.g. people

working in

> nuclear power plants who were exposed to an inordinate amount of

radiation

> or people that were exposed to nuclear plant accidents like

Chernobyl or

> Three Mile Island. (I understand that in the later case there was

a cover-up

> about the effects - e.g. deformed fetuses, etc.)

>

> I guess what I am getting at here is whether there is any

similarity here with

> the symptoms of CFS?

>

> peace,

>

> paul

>

[Guest guest]

Dawn,

I think it could very well be a factor in this illness - both

ionizing and non-ionizing radiation.

paul

>

> ,

> You mention nuclear waste. It got me to thinking, do you know if

anyone has done a geographical study of CFS and fibro patients? Is

there any kind of trend based on nuclear power plants? I ask because

I live in Toledo, OH. If you aren't familiar, we have 2 large

nuclear power plants within a 50(?) mile radius. ( Bessy and

sburg). I just wonder if this could be in any way related to my

illness.

> Thanks,

> Dawn

>

>

>

> Rich, I was just curious - since you have worked with nuclear waste

- if you were familiar with the symptoms of radiation poisoning, e.g.

people working in nuclear power plants who were exposed to an

inordinate amount of radiation or people that were exposed to nuclear

plant accidents like Chernobyl or Three Mile Island. (I understand

that in the later case there was a cover-up about the effects - e.g.

deformed fetuses, etc.) I guess what I am getting at here is whether

there is any similarity here with the symptoms of CFS? peace, paul

>

> It's the future of Hotmail: Try Windows Live Mail beta

> http://www2.imagine-msn.com/minisites/mail/Default.aspx?locale=en-

us

>

>

[Guest guest]

Hi, Dawn.

The only study of this type of which I'm aware is described in this

abstract:

Popul Health Metr. 2004 Feb 4;2(1):1.

Regional distribution of fatiguing illnesses in the United States: a

pilot study.

Bierl C, Nisenbaum R, Hoaglin DC, Randall B, AB, Unger ER,

Reeves WC.

Division of Viral and Rickettsial Diseases, National Center for

Infectious Diseases, Centers for Disease Control and Prevention,

Atlanta, GA 30333, USA. wcr1@...

BACKGROUND: Chronic fatigue syndrome (CFS) is a debilitating illness

with no known cause or effective therapy. Population-based

epidemiologic data on CFS prevalence are critical to put CFS in a

realistic context for public health officials and others responsible

for allocating resources. METHODS: We conducted a pilot random-digit-

dialing survey to estimate the prevalence of fatiguing illnesses in

different geographic regions and in urban and rural populations of

the United States. This report focuses on 884 of 7,317 respondents

18 to 69 years old. Fatigued (440) and randomly selected non-

fatigued (444) respondents completed telephone questionnaires

concerning fatigue, other symptoms, and medical history. RESULTS: We

estimated 12,186 per 100,000 persons 18 to 69 years of age suffered

from fatigue lasting for at least 6 months (chronic fatigue), and

1,197 per 100,000 described an illness that, though lacking clinical

evaluation, met criteria for CFS (CFS-like). Chronic fatigue and CFS-

like illness were more common in rural than in urban populations,

although the differences were not significant. The prevalence of

these fatiguing illnesses did not differ meaningfully among the four

regions surveyed, and no significant geographic trends were

observed. CONCLUSIONS: This investigation estimated that nearly 2.2

million American adults suffer from CFS-like illness. The study also

suggested the need to focus future investigations of fatigue on

populations with lower incomes and less education. There was no

evidence for regional differences in the occurrence of fatiguing

illnesses.

PMID: 14761250 [PubMed - as supplied by publisher]

As you can see, they did not find evidence for regional differences

in the occurrence of fatiguing illnesses.

I don't think anyone has specifically studied whether there is a

higher occurrence of CFS near nuclear power plants. I would doubt

that there would be, because emissions of radioactive material from

these plants are pretty tightly controlled.

I would be more concerned about coal-fired power plants, because

they release mercury into the atmosphere. As you know, I think

there are some similarities in the causes of CFS and autism, and

there was a study done in Texas not long ago in which a correlation

was found between the occurrence of autism and the levels of

environmentally released mercury. Here's the abstract:

Health Place. 2006 Jun;12(2):203-9.

Environmental mercury release, special education rates, and autism

disorder: an ecological study of Texas.

Palmer RF, Blanchard S, Stein Z, Mandell D, C.

University of Texas Health Science Center, San Department of

Family and Community Medicine, 7703 Floyd Curl Drive, San ,

Texas 78229-3900, USA. palmer@...

The association between environmentally released mercury, special

education and autism rates in Texas was investigated using data from

the Texas Education Department and the United States Environmental

Protection Agency. A Poisson regression analysis adjusted for school

district population size, economic and demographic factors was used.

There was a significant increase in the rates of special education

students and autism rates associated with increases in

environmentally released mercury. On average, for each 1,000 lb of

environmentally released mercury, there was a 43% increase in the

rate of special education services and a 61% increase in the rate of

autism. The association between environmentally released mercury and

special education rates were fully mediated by increased autism

rates. This ecological study suggests the need for further research

regarding the association between environmentally released mercury

and developmental disorders such as autism. These results have

implications for policy planning and cost analysis.

PMID: 16338635 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

Rich

>

> ,

> You mention nuclear waste. It got me to thinking, do you know if

anyone has done a geographical study of CFS and fibro patients? Is

there any kind of trend based on nuclear power plants? I ask

because I live in Toledo, OH. If you aren't familiar, we have 2

large nuclear power plants within a 50(?) mile radius. ( Bessy

and sburg). I just wonder if this could be in any way related

to my illness.

> Thanks,

> Dawn

[Guest guest]

Rich,

The more time I spend here, the more I realize I don't know! I was not aware

that coal-fired power plants released mercury into the environment. How can

that be legal? Are these type of power plants common? Do you know how I can

find out if I live near any of them? I was a special ed major in college

(before I changed my major to nursing during my fourth year- student

teaching-long story), so the autism connection is near and dear to my heart.

Once again, thanks for the info,

Dawn

I would be more concerned about coal-fired power plants, because > they

release mercury into the atmosphere. As you know, I think > there are some

similarities in the causes of CFS and autism, and > there was a study done in

Texas not long ago in which a correlation > was found between the occurrence of

autism and the levels of > environmentally released mercury.

Because e-mail on your cell phone should be easy: Try Windows Live Mail for

Mobile beta

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[Guest guest]

This is a very interesting study (the second one about environmental

mercury release and Autism). Could increased mercury cause increased

sensitivity to non-ionizing radiation such as the microwaves from cell

phones? That could explain a lot about PWC being EMF sensitive.

SPAM-MED: Re: cell phones

Hi, Dawn.

The only study of this type of which I'm aware is described in this

abstract:

Popul Health Metr. 2004 Feb 4;2(1):1.

Regional distribution of fatiguing illnesses in the United States: a

pilot study.

Bierl C, Nisenbaum R, Hoaglin DC, Randall B, AB, Unger ER,

Reeves WC.

Division of Viral and Rickettsial Diseases, National Center for

Infectious Diseases, Centers for Disease Control and Prevention,

Atlanta, GA 30333, USA. wcr1@...

BACKGROUND: Chronic fatigue syndrome (CFS) is a debilitating illness

with no known cause or effective therapy. Population-based

epidemiologic data on CFS prevalence are critical to put CFS in a

realistic context for public health officials and others responsible

for allocating resources. METHODS: We conducted a pilot random-digit-

dialing survey to estimate the prevalence of fatiguing illnesses in

different geographic regions and in urban and rural populations of

the United States. This report focuses on 884 of 7,317 respondents

18 to 69 years old. Fatigued (440) and randomly selected non-

fatigued (444) respondents completed telephone questionnaires

concerning fatigue, other symptoms, and medical history. RESULTS: We

estimated 12,186 per 100,000 persons 18 to 69 years of age suffered

from fatigue lasting for at least 6 months (chronic fatigue), and

1,197 per 100,000 described an illness that, though lacking clinical

evaluation, met criteria for CFS (CFS-like). Chronic fatigue and CFS-

like illness were more common in rural than in urban populations,

although the differences were not significant. The prevalence of

these fatiguing illnesses did not differ meaningfully among the four

regions surveyed, and no significant geographic trends were

observed. CONCLUSIONS: This investigation estimated that nearly 2.2

million American adults suffer from CFS-like illness. The study also

suggested the need to focus future investigations of fatigue on

populations with lower incomes and less education. There was no

evidence for regional differences in the occurrence of fatiguing

illnesses.

PMID: 14761250 [PubMed - as supplied by publisher]

As you can see, they did not find evidence for regional differences

in the occurrence of fatiguing illnesses.

I don't think anyone has specifically studied whether there is a

higher occurrence of CFS near nuclear power plants. I would doubt

that there would be, because emissions of radioactive material from

these plants are pretty tightly controlled.

I would be more concerned about coal-fired power plants, because

they release mercury into the atmosphere. As you know, I think

there are some similarities in the causes of CFS and autism, and

there was a study done in Texas not long ago in which a correlation

was found between the occurrence of autism and the levels of

environmentally released mercury. Here's the abstract:

Health Place. 2006 Jun;12(2):203-9.

Environmental mercury release, special education rates, and autism

disorder: an ecological study of Texas.

Palmer RF, Blanchard S, Stein Z, Mandell D, C.

University of Texas Health Science Center, San Department of

Family and Community Medicine, 7703 Floyd Curl Drive, San ,

Texas 78229-3900, USA. palmer@...

The association between environmentally released mercury, special

education and autism rates in Texas was investigated using data from

the Texas Education Department and the United States Environmental

Protection Agency. A Poisson regression analysis adjusted for school

district population size, economic and demographic factors was used.

There was a significant increase in the rates of special education

students and autism rates associated with increases in

environmentally released mercury. On average, for each 1,000 lb of

environmentally released mercury, there was a 43% increase in the

rate of special education services and a 61% increase in the rate of

autism. The association between environmentally released mercury and

special education rates were fully mediated by increased autism

rates. This ecological study suggests the need for further research

regarding the association between environmentally released mercury

and developmental disorders such as autism. These results have

implications for policy planning and cost analysis.

PMID: 16338635 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

Rich

>

> ,

> You mention nuclear waste. It got me to thinking, do you know if

anyone has done a geographical study of CFS and fibro patients? Is

there any kind of trend based on nuclear power plants? I ask

because I live in Toledo, OH. If you aren't familiar, we have 2

large nuclear power plants within a 50(?) mile radius. ( Bessy

and sburg). I just wonder if this could be in any way related

to my illness.

> Thanks,

> Dawn

This list is intended for patients to share personal experiences with

each other, not to give medical advice. If you are interested in any

treatment discussed here, please consult your doctor.

[Guest guest]

I have thought about that too, not just mercury but the other tonage of metals

in my mouth in crowns, I think I 'could be' a cell tower, much less be affected

by one :-/

Marcia

RE: Re: cell phones

This is a very interesting study (the second one about environmental

mercury release and Autism). Could increased mercury cause increased

sensitivity to non-ionizing radiation such as the microwaves from cell

phones? That could explain a lot about PWC being EMF sensitive.

[Guest guest]

Hi, Kurt.

I don't knoww the answer to that question, but my guess is that it

wouldn't. The reason is that mercury in the body is bound to

sulfhydryl groups in enzymes and other proteins. I don't know of a

way in which electromagnetic waves could couple to bound mercury ions

any differently than to other ions normally in the body.

You might be interested to know what Dr. Ritchie Shoemaker thinks

about this. I think that his concept is at least plausible from the

standpoints of physics, biochemistry and physiology, but I don't know

of experimental studies to test them.

His idea is this: It is known that many PWCs, as part of their

illness, have central diabetes insipidus (not the same as the more

common diabetes mellitus). In central diabetes insipidus, the

hypothalamus does not put out enough arginine vasopressin (aka

antiduretic hormone). He believes this is a result of the Biotoxin

Pathway that he has developed to describe the effects in genetically

susceptible people of disorders in which there are biotoxins. This is

described in his book Mold Warriors, and I won't go into his whole

theory. I have other views about why the hypothalamus doesn't put out

enough vasopressin in many cases of CFS in which there is not a

biotoxin issue (i.e. glutathione depletion).

In any case, getting back to the low vasopressin, the result of this

is that the kidneys dump more water into the urine than they should.

This causes the person to become dehydrated, i.e. their blood has less

water in it than normal. The person is always thirsty, and drinks a

lot of water, but they never keep up with the urination, so they are

always partially dehydrated. This much is pretty well established.

The result of the dehydration is that the total blood volume drops,

and the blood becomes more concentrated in salts than normal. This is

also well established in central diabetes insipidus.

Dr. Shoemaker then suggests that the person's sweat is more

concentrated in salts as well. He says that PWCs have more

concentrated sweat than do people with cystic fibrosis, and they were

formerly thought to have the most concentrated sweat of anyone. I

don't know if he or someone else has measured the galvanic skin

response in PWCs to see if this is actually true.

Dr. Shoemaker goes on to say that because of the higher salt

concentration on the skin, people with CFS have higher electrical

conductivity in this layer, and they are thus better conductors.

He says this comes into play with static electricity, such as from

grounded electrical switch cover plates, door knobs and other grounded

conducting objects, and that PWCs readily get static electric shocks

from them. He also says that PWCs can turn off electric watches by

touching them.

If the skin is indeed more electrically conducting in PWCs, then I

think it is reasonable to expect that electromagnetic waves from the

environment would induce higher currents in the skin of PWCs than in

the skin of other people. (It is a fact fact from electromagnetic

theory that high frequency currents are confined to the surfaces of

conductors, a phenomenon known as the " skin effect. " ) So in this

model, PWCs would basically be acting as better antennas. That's

about as far as I can go with this at this point. I don't know how

much higher the skin currents would be, nor do I know how they might

affect the person's physiology. Since the nervous system operates by

transfer of electrical charges in the form of ions, I think that it

would be the main candidate for a body system that might respond to

surface currents on the skin, if there is any response at all. Since

the nervous system is so important to controlling body functions, if

the electromagnetic waves were indeed able to couple to it, there

might be some interesting effects.

I would say that a model that went something like that would be at

least plausible, though what I've written here only goes so far, and

also the various parts of it are not proven.

Rich

>

> This is a very interesting study (the second one about environmental

> mercury release and Autism). Could increased mercury cause increased

> sensitivity to non-ionizing radiation such as the microwaves from

cell

> phones? That could explain a lot about PWC being EMF sensitive.

[Guest guest]

Hi, Dawn.

The EPA-allowed amount of mercury release from coal-fired power

plants has been a very contentious issue. A small amount of mercury

is found naturally in coal, and when coal is burned, the mercury is

vaporized. To prevent its release is expensive, because the volume

of exhaust gas from these large plants is huge, and separating

mercury out is expensive. It therefore raises the cost of

generating electricity, and that's a cost that affects industry and

consumers. The more you take out, the more expensive it is, so you

have to draw the line somewhere, and there have been big battles

over this.

Yes, coal-fired power plants are very common. They are one of the

main contributors to electricity generation in this country,

particularly in the eastern part of the U.S. There aren't any in

California, where I live, for example, because it would be a long

distance to have to move the coal, and that would make it more

expensive. It takes huge trainloads of coal continuously to feed

the big coal-fired power plants. Most of the coal deposits are in

the east.

Most of the mercury that ends up in fish comes from coal-fired power

plants originally. It is rained out of the atmosphere and gets into

the streams and rivers. Bacteria pick it up and convert it to

methylmercury. Then it moves up the food chain to the large,

predatory fish, and they can be pretty concentrated. Tuna is an

example, as is swordfish and shark. As you may know, the government

has set limits on how much fish pregnant women should eat, based on

this, because mercury in a pregnant woman's body tends to go to the

brain of the fetus.

I think that if you Google on the power companies in your area, you

will be able to find out where the coal-fired plants are in your

area.

In normal operation, nuclear plants put out much less pollution to

the environment than do coal-fired plants. They also don't release

carbon dioxide, which many people believe is causing global

warming. The issues are preventing reactor accidents, which could

release radioactive materisl, and disposal of the spent nuclear fuel

and nuclear waste, which is of much less volume than the ashes from

coal plants, but is much more radioactive.

Rich

>

> Rich,

> The more time I spend here, the more I realize I don't know! I

was not aware that coal-fired power plants released mercury into the

environment. How can that be legal? Are these type of power plants

common? Do you know how I can find out if I live near any of them?

I was a special ed major in college (before I changed my major to

nursing during my fourth year- student teaching-long story), so the

autism connection is near and dear to my heart.

> Once again, thanks for the info,

> Dawn

>

[Guest guest]

On Mar 15, 2006, at 4:17 PM, rvankonynen wrote:

> In normal operation, nuclear plants put out much less pollution to

> the environment than do coal-fired plants. They also don't release

> carbon dioxide, which many people believe is causing global

> warming. The issues are preventing reactor accidents, which could

> release radioactive materisl, and disposal of the spent nuclear fuel

> and nuclear waste, which is of much less volume than the ashes from

> coal plants, but is much more radioactive.

Rich, this is way off-topic for the list, but I'm studying energy

issues in school right now, and am fascinated by the potential for

the new generation of pebble-bed reactors (which apparently have the

potential to eliminate or at least greatly reduce most of the

problems you noted above).

I've got a few questions, which it occurs to me that you might be

able to answer. Mind if we chat about this off-list?

Sara

[Guest guest]

Kurt,

From my own personal experience - my apprehensions, and

comprehensions - I believe that this could very well indeed be the

case.

paul

> >

> > ,

> > You mention nuclear waste. It got me to thinking, do you know if

> anyone has done a geographical study of CFS and fibro patients? Is

> there any kind of trend based on nuclear power plants? I ask

> because I live in Toledo, OH. If you aren't familiar, we have 2

> large nuclear power plants within a 50(?) mile radius. (

Bessy

> and sburg). I just wonder if this could be in any way related

> to my illness.

> > Thanks,

> > Dawn

>

>

>

>

>

>

> This list is intended for patients to share personal experiences

with

> each other, not to give medical advice. If you are interested in

any

> treatment discussed here, please consult your doctor.

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Marcia,

Having my gold fillings (which also contained iridium btw) removed

really helped me considerably. I believe iridium is used in cell

phones. At any rate, the difference I felt was remarkable after

having them removed. I only now have holes in my mouth and I feel

great.

paul

>

> I have thought about that too, not just mercury but the other

tonage of metals in my mouth in crowns, I think I 'could be' a cell

tower, much less be affected by one :-/

>

> Marcia

> RE: Re: cell phones

>

>

> This is a very interesting study (the second one about

environmental

> mercury release and Autism). Could increased mercury cause

increased

> sensitivity to non-ionizing radiation such as the microwaves from

cell

> phones? That could explain a lot about PWC being EMF sensitive.

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Dawn,

I read a very interesting book a number of years ago called " Nuclear

Witnesses. " It gives an insiders look at how lax these nuclear plants

really are. In chapter four of the book, an expert in this field, Dr.

Gofman, speaks out. As you can see from the following, he truly

is an expert in this field.

http://www.ratical.org/radiation/inetSeries/nwJWG.html

" The following is chapter 4 from the 1982 book Nuclear Witnesses,

Insiders Speak Out and is an interview with Dr. Gofman detailing

his personal experiences and knowledge regarding the nuclear

establishment. Dr. Gofman is a Professor Emeritus at the University

of California, Berkeley (Ph.D. in nuclear-physical chemistry and an

M.D.) who was the first Director of the Biomedical Research Division

of the Lawrence Livermore Laboratory from 1963-65 and one of nine

Associate Directors at the Lab from 1963-1969. He was involved in the

Manhattan Project and is a co-discoverer of Uranium-232, Plutonium-

232, Uranium-233, and Plutonium-233, and of slow and fast neutron

fissionability of Uranium-233. He also was a co-inventor of the

urnayl acetate and columbium oxide processes for plutonium

separation. He has taught in the radioisotope and radiobiology fields

from the 1950s at least up into the 1980s, and has done research in

radiochemistry, macromoloecules, lipoprotiens, coronary heart

disease, arterioscleroisis, trace element determination, x-ray

spectroscopy, chromosomes and cancer and radioation hazards. Starting

in 1969 he began to challenge the AEC claim that there was a " safe

threshold " of radiation below which no adverse health effects could

be detected. "

At any rate, given his credentials, I believe that we can believe him

when he states:

" Licensing a nuclear power plant is in my view, licensing random

premeditated murder. First of all, when you license a plant, you know

what you're doing--so it's premeditated. You can't say, " I didn't

know. " Second, the evidence on radiation-producing cancer is beyond

doubt. I've worked fifteen years on it [as of 1982], and so have many

others. It is not a question any more: radiation produces cancer, and

the evidence is good all the way down to the lowest doses. "

Regards,

paul doyon

>

> ,

> You mention nuclear waste. It got me to thinking, do you know if

anyone has done a geographical study of CFS and fibro patients? Is

there any kind of trend based on nuclear power plants? I ask because

I live in Toledo, OH. If you aren't familiar, we have 2 large

nuclear power plants within a 50(?) mile radius. ( Bessy and

sburg). I just wonder if this could be in any way related to my

illness.

> Thanks,

> Dawn

>

>

>

> Rich, I was just curious - since you have worked with nuclear waste

- if you were familiar with the symptoms of radiation poisoning, e.g.

people working in nuclear power plants who were exposed to an

inordinate amount of radiation or people that were exposed to nuclear

plant accidents like Chernobyl or Three Mile Island. (I understand

that in the later case there was a cover-up about the effects - e.g.

deformed fetuses, etc.) I guess what I am getting at here is whether

there is any similarity here with the symptoms of CFS? peace, paul

>

> It's the future of Hotmail: Try Windows Live Mail beta

> http://www2.imagine-msn.com/minisites/mail/Default.aspx?locale=en-

us

>

>

[Guest guest]

,

Do you believe that all fillings are harmful, despite the date they were put in?

I have heard much controversy regarding mercury fillings, but I thought that was

outlawed a long time ago. At 28, I didn't think any fillings I have could be

harmful.

-Dawn

Marcia,> > Having my gold fillings (which also contained iridium btw) removed >

really helped me considerably. I believe iridium is used in cell > phones. At

any rate, the difference I felt was remarkable after > having them removed. I

only now have holes in my mouth and I feel > great.> > paul

It's the future, it's here, and it's free: Windows Live Mail beta

http://www2.imagine-msn.com/minisites/mail/Default.aspx?locale=en-us

[Guest guest]

Rich,

Is there a test available for diabetes insipidus? I am constantly thirsty (I

drink about a gallon of water a day), constantly peeing, get dizzy, light headed

and nauseated if I can't drink, have had a positive tilt table test... I am

just wondering if this couldn't be a missing piece for me. Is there any

recognized treatment for it?

Thanks,

Dawn

His idea is this: It is known that many PWCs, as part of their > illness, have

central diabetes insipidus (not the same as the more > common diabetes

mellitus). In central diabetes insipidus, the > hypothalamus does not put out

enough arginine vasopressin (aka > antiduretic hormone). He believes this is a

result of the Biotoxin > Pathway that he has developed to describe the effects

in genetically > susceptible people of disorders in which there are biotoxins.

This is > described in his book Mold Warriors, and I won't go into his whole >

theory. I have other views about why the hypothalamus doesn't put out > enough

vasopressin in many cases of CFS in which there is not a > biotoxin issue (i.e.

glutathione depletion).

It's the future, it's here, and it's free: Windows Live Mail beta

http://www2.imagine-msn.com/minisites/mail/Default.aspx?locale=en-us

[Guest guest]

Hi, Dawn.

I conquered ME/CFS related diabetes insipidus. Check out my post at

message#90019 by punching in this number in the box above for this and hitting

" GO " . I think it answers completely what you're asking of Rich here.

" Dawn Munn " <dawnmunn@...> wrote:

>

> Rich,

>

> Is there a test available for diabetes insipidus? I am constantly thirsty (I

drink about a gallon of water a day), constantly peeing, get dizzy, light headed

and nauseated if I can't drink, have had a positive tilt table test... I am

just wondering if this couldn't be a missing piece for me. Is there any

recognized treatment for it?

>

> Thanks,

> Dawn

\

[Guest guest]

Hi, Dawn.

Yes, there are tests for diabetes insipidus. The older, more brutal

one is to have the person stop drinking water (water deprivation

test), and then monitor the osmolality of their urine as time goes

by (that's basically how much salts are dissolved in the urine), and

then take a blood sample after a while and measure the osmolality of

that. If the person has diabetes insipidus, the urine will have low

osmolality, and it will stay low, while the osmolality of the blood

will rise. Then they give the person some desmopressin, either as a

nose spray or orally, and measure the osmolality of the urine

again. If it's central diabetes insipidus, the osmolality of the

urine will rise.

The kindler, gentler approach is to measure the level of vasopressin

in the blood. If it's low, the person has central diabetes

insipidus.

Is there a treatment? Yes, a drug called desmopressin (aka DDAVP),

which is a synthetic form of vasopressin. It is modified from the

natural versiona so that it will stay in the blood longer, and also

so that it will not raise the blood pressure, as the natural

vasopressin will. It is given as a nose spray or an oral pill. You

have to continue to use it every day, with dosage and frequency

matched to what you need.

In CFS, people have also tried eating more salt, and that will help

to hold some more water in the blood. There's also a drug called

Florinef, but I don't think it's been very successful in CFS.

In the long run, the best treatment is to fix whatever is wrong in

the hypothalamus. I suspect that in many PWCs, that's glutathione

depletion, and that's what just wrote to you about. His case

gives me a lot of hope that this is one more problem in CFS that

will be taken care of by raising the glutathione level back up.

Rich

>

> Rich,

>

> Is there a test available for diabetes insipidus? I am constantly

thirsty (I drink about a gallon of water a day), constantly peeing,

get dizzy, light headed and nauseated if I can't drink, have had a

positive tilt table test... I am just wondering if this couldn't

be a missing piece for me. Is there any recognized treatment for it?

>

> Thanks,

> Dawn

>

> His idea is this: It is known that many PWCs, as part of their >

illness, have central diabetes insipidus (not the same as the more >

common diabetes mellitus). In central diabetes insipidus, the >

hypothalamus does not put out enough arginine vasopressin (aka >

antiduretic hormone). He believes this is a result of the Biotoxin

> Pathway that he has developed to describe the effects in

genetically > susceptible people of disorders in which there are

biotoxins. This is > described in his book Mold Warriors, and I

won't go into his whole > theory. I have other views about why the

hypothalamus doesn't put out > enough vasopressin in many cases of

CFS in which there is not a > biotoxin issue (i.e. glutathione

depletion).

>

>

>

> It's the future, it's here, and it's free: Windows Live Mail beta

> http://www2.imagine-msn.com/minisites/mail/Default.aspx?locale=en-

us

>

>

[Guest guest]

Dawn,

I had my amalgam fillings removed about two years ago. Before that I

was having a number of health problems which I attributed to the

mercury. Then I had hybrid (ceramic and resin blend) put in and they

made me really sick. They contained methyl methacrylate btw. So I had

them replaced by a so-called " Biological " dentist. He was a super

nice guy but the glass-ionomer he put in my mouth made me extremely

sick. I was nauseous for 10 months. They contained aluminum-flouride,

silica, and polyacrylic acid. I finally had these replaced with Gold

but after I got CFS I had a strong feeling that the Gold feelings

were part of the problem - and they were in that they were acting as

antennas for the microwaves. When I went to see my current doctor,

Dr. Yayama and he used his Zero Search machine on me, he told me that

I had mercury, lead, aluminum, and resin in the area of my right

sternum so... one would assume that all this stuff had disolved in my

mouth and deposited in this area. Personally, I believe anything that

is artificial is probably not going to be good to put into your

mouth. I did have my one root canal replaced with a material named

Endocal (sold by Biodent) which is a very natural material. I had

them ship a sample to my dentist here in Japan and they love the

product.

According to their bioresonance machine there is nothing else that I

am compatible with. I have tried to get some DiamondLite but haven't

had much luck. But all I can say is that I feel fine without having

anything kind of artificial material in my mouth and maybe that is

best - in spite of the conventional dental wisdom.

Peace,

paul

>

> ,

> Do you believe that all fillings are harmful, despite the date they

were put in? I have heard much controversy regarding mercury

fillings, but I thought that was outlawed a long time ago. At 28, I

didn't think any fillings I have could be harmful.

> -Dawn

>

>

> Marcia,> > Having my gold fillings (which also contained iridium

btw) removed > really helped me considerably. I believe iridium is

used in cell > phones. At any rate, the difference I felt was

remarkable after > having them removed. I only now have holes in my

mouth and I feel > great.> > paul

>

>

>

>

>

>

> It's the future, it's here, and it's free: Windows Live Mail beta

> http://www2.imagine-msn.com/minisites/mail/Default.aspx?locale=en-

us

>

>

[Guest guest]

Dawn,

I was diagnosed with DI by Dr Cheney. I went to my Endo doc and was

given a test to confirm ( the test is miserable). If positive, you

would inject an antidiuretic hormone called DDAVP. You would need

weekly blood draws for sodium levels.

L

On Mar 15, 2006, at 11:40 PM, Dawn Munn wrote:

> Rich,

>

> Is there a test available for diabetes insipidus?  I am constantly

> thirsty (I drink about a gallon of water a day), constantly peeing,

> get dizzy, light headed and nauseated if I can't drink, have had a

> positive tilt table test...   I am just wondering if this couldn't be

> a missing piece for me.  Is there any recognized treatment for it?

>

> Thanks,

> Dawn

>

> His idea is this:  It is known that many PWCs, as part of their >

> illness, have central diabetes insipidus (not the same as the more >

> common diabetes mellitus).  In central diabetes insipidus, the >

> hypothalamus does not put out enough arginine vasopressin (aka >

> antiduretic hormone).  He believes this is a result of the Biotoxin >

> Pathway that he has developed to describe the effects in genetically >

> susceptible people of disorders in which there are biotoxins.  This is

> > described in his book Mold Warriors, and I won't go into his whole >

> theory. I have other views about why the hypothalamus doesn't put out

> > enough vasopressin in many cases of CFS in which there is not a >

> biotoxin issue (i.e. glutathione depletion). 

>

>

>

> It's the future, it's here, and it's free: Windows Live Mail beta

> http://www2.imagine-msn.com/minisites/mail/Default.aspx?locale=en-us

>

>

[Guest guest]

Dear Turk,

I asked my husband about the cell phone business. He

said that as long as the " magnets " are 12 " away there

should be no problem. We have a cell phone and he

uses it on his right ear. My husband has had his

device since 2000 and so far he has not had any

problems with electronic fields. But, we are never in

subways!!!

Jeanette King

Boynton Beach, FL

--- TURK <goturk1@...> wrote:

> Hello everyone;

> I have not posted in a while. I hope all is well.

> First of all I would like to hear from all the older

> members(members that have been here longer). Just

> check in and say hello so that I know you are all

> ok. I haven't heard from you guys and gals in a

> while. Secondly My biggest worry is when i take the

> subway in the morning and having somebody right

> behind me and playing a game on their cell phone.

> Subway tends to get very crowded sometimes so i

> could get awfully close to these cellphones. Any

> thoughts?

> Regards.

> TURK

>

> Becca <beccageo1980@...> wrote:

>

> I would like to have OnStar in my device so the

> little voice could tell me which way to turn, or

> warn me not to step in " that " or alert me to the

> impending meeting with some jerk, or whisper the

> perfect excuse why I cannot possibly have lunch with

> said jerk, ever. I would like to download books to

> listen to when standing in the DMV line or at the

> grocery, music, the weather. And I would love for it

> to tell me that I just might be heading for a zap

> and to go sit down somewhere.

> Becca

>

> ph Schmidt <glua.joe@...> wrote:

> Thanks for the info on battery replacement. I

> was trying to make a funny at

> the end of a serious discussion on our favorite

> topic of insurance

> companies. I guess it looked too much like a real

> question. Sorry!

>

> I know that I will be back in the hospital for a

> replacement someday. Maybe

> by then they will have a replacement for coumadin so

> I don't have to spend a

> week on an IV waiting for my coumadin level to be

> high enough to leave the

> hospital. I think I was in the hospital for eight

> days when they put in the

> ICD.

>

> Has anyone had their ICD replaced when they were

> taking blood thinners?

>

> I have a mechanical heart valve and they keep my

> blood really thin so I

> don't get a clot on the valve which might break

> loose and cause a stroke or

> heart attack.

>

> I get the impression that the doctors would love to

> have a replacement for

> coumadin because of all the problems it causes.

>

> Sorry for the confusion. I should know not to mix

> jokes with serious

> topics. I guess my jokes aren't really that funny!

> Will the OnStarICD

> allow my wife to track me down when I am taking a

> long walk?

>

> Joe Schmidt

>

> God Loves Us All

>

> Re: ICD replacements

>

> Being able to switch out batteries is a dream we

> have ALL had... but

> it will likely never happen. The ENTIRE device must

> be swapped out.

> Rationale is good: Getting a new device about every

> half decade is A

> PLUS... as we get newer devices with more features,

> such as improved

> diagnostics, better record keeping and a broader

> spectrum of

> " therapies " requiring fewer full blown 700 volt

> zaps. Now... many can

> do everything almost as good as placing a call to

> your doc when your

> heart starts to flutter. Next year... I expect to

> see an OnStarICD

> interface!

>

> I am now on ICD#4... having gone through 3

> replacements in 12 years.

> First time, went into pre-op after my noon:30 soap

> (Y & R) ... and drove

> self home in time to watch 6PM news!

>

> Last time... went into pre-op at 11AM... on way home

> at 2PM.

>

> Unless you need a lead replacement... or have

> special circumstances,

> it is usually quick in and out. (guess that should

> read out and in)

>

> Please visit the Zapper homepage at

> http://www.ZapLife.org

>

[Guest guest]

Dear Turk,

I asked my husband about the cell phone business. He

said that as long as the " magnets " are 12 " away there

should be no problem. We have a cell phone and he

uses it on his right ear. My husband has had his

device since 2000 and so far he has not had any

problems with electronic fields. But, we are never in

subways!!!

Jeanette King

Boynton Beach, FL

--- TURK <goturk1@...> wrote:

> Hello everyone;

> I have not posted in a while. I hope all is well.

> First of all I would like to hear from all the older

> members(members that have been here longer). Just

> check in and say hello so that I know you are all

> ok. I haven't heard from you guys and gals in a

> while. Secondly My biggest worry is when i take the

> subway in the morning and having somebody right

> behind me and playing a game on their cell phone.

> Subway tends to get very crowded sometimes so i

> could get awfully close to these cellphones. Any

> thoughts?

> Regards.

> TURK

>

> Becca <beccageo1980@...> wrote:

>

> I would like to have OnStar in my device so the

> little voice could tell me which way to turn, or

> warn me not to step in " that " or alert me to the

> impending meeting with some jerk, or whisper the

> perfect excuse why I cannot possibly have lunch with

> said jerk, ever. I would like to download books to

> listen to when standing in the DMV line or at the

> grocery, music, the weather. And I would love for it

> to tell me that I just might be heading for a zap

> and to go sit down somewhere.

> Becca

>

> ph Schmidt <glua.joe@...> wrote:

> Thanks for the info on battery replacement. I

> was trying to make a funny at

> the end of a serious discussion on our favorite

> topic of insurance

> companies. I guess it looked too much like a real

> question. Sorry!

>

> I know that I will be back in the hospital for a

> replacement someday. Maybe

> by then they will have a replacement for coumadin so

> I don't have to spend a

> week on an IV waiting for my coumadin level to be

> high enough to leave the

> hospital. I think I was in the hospital for eight

> days when they put in the

> ICD.

>

> Has anyone had their ICD replaced when they were

> taking blood thinners?

>

> I have a mechanical heart valve and they keep my

> blood really thin so I

> don't get a clot on the valve which might break

> loose and cause a stroke or

> heart attack.

>

> I get the impression that the doctors would love to

> have a replacement for

> coumadin because of all the problems it causes.

>

> Sorry for the confusion. I should know not to mix

> jokes with serious

> topics. I guess my jokes aren't really that funny!

> Will the OnStarICD

> allow my wife to track me down when I am taking a

> long walk?

>

> Joe Schmidt

>

> God Loves Us All

>

> Re: ICD replacements

>

> Being able to switch out batteries is a dream we

> have ALL had... but

> it will likely never happen. The ENTIRE device must

> be swapped out.

> Rationale is good: Getting a new device about every

> half decade is A

> PLUS... as we get newer devices with more features,

> such as improved

> diagnostics, better record keeping and a broader

> spectrum of

> " therapies " requiring fewer full blown 700 volt

> zaps. Now... many can

> do everything almost as good as placing a call to

> your doc when your

> heart starts to flutter. Next year... I expect to

> see an OnStarICD

> interface!

>

> I am now on ICD#4... having gone through 3

> replacements in 12 years.

> First time, went into pre-op after my noon:30 soap

> (Y & R) ... and drove

> self home in time to watch 6PM news!

>

> Last time... went into pre-op at 11AM... on way home

> at 2PM.

>

> Unless you need a lead replacement... or have

> special circumstances,

> it is usually quick in and out. (guess that should

> read out and in)

>

> Please visit the Zapper homepage at

> http://www.ZapLife.org

>