RE: Feeding pets, dogs, cats

[Guest guest]

I know you'll get some good answers as we have some who follow the barf diet... but to answer your question yes. here is a link that will give you some info on this topic http://www.vegsoc.org/info/dogfood1.html Also, if it turns out it is arthritis... try the liquid glucosomine... does much more than the pills. TerriLynne <terri_lynne@...> wrote: Hi all,I hope this isn't too off topic, but I am seeking some serious thoughtshere, and of the several lists to which I belong, I think you guys havethe greatest combined mind.Let me first tell you my story, and then my question with speculations.I have a yellow labrador retriever who turned 9 years old in December,2006. She has been my guide dog

since 1999. I retired her because attimes, she can't walk fast when we are in a hurry to catch a bus, andsometimes she limps. I have started her on msm and glucosamine.But there have been worse times. Last summer, while visiting Florida,she became almost comatose at times, would walk close to the wall,leaning on it for support, and, in short, scared me to death. Oneveterinary nurse asked me if she had had a stroke, one symptom of whichwas to walk along leaning on the wall. I really couldn't be sure ofanything, except that a couple of symptoms matched. While we were there,I took her to an accupuncturist, and it seemed to revive her a lot. Ialso had her undergo a 2-hour dog massage, during which the two peopleworking on her found two lumps under the skin.I don't want to put her through a lot of medical mumbo jumbo to find outwhat, if anything, she has. I did have a blood workup done when we gothome, but it came

back normal.Yesterday, she seemed fine when she awoke, but later on in the day, shebegan walking VERY slowly. A little after that, she threw up, which hadno impact on making her feel better. She continued very slow. Today,she is still sluggish.I have read somewhat about varying ideas for diets for dogs. Some peoplebelieve in the bones and raw food (BARF) diet, but, to my way ofthinking, it is not a good and sufficient diet because it requiressupplementation. And so, finally, we are down to my question:Theoretically, can a dog be a vegetarian? A raw vegetarian? If you areChristian, you may be familiar with the part of the bible that says thatat some point, the lion will lie down with the kid. If you take thisliterally, which I do, wouldn't you think that a dog could becomevegetarian?I would like to make a diet change that would really help my dog, butI'm just not sure what that change should be. In

some ways, the BARFdiet does seem like a good idea, the way they eat in the wild, etcetera,but the need for supplementation says to me that it isn't working.What are your thoughts? Can anyone recommend any further reading thatwould be helpful?I once knew a woman who fed her cat totally vegetarian. But it has been30 years since I have seen her, and I don't even know if she stilllives.BTW, I have a cat and second dog. I am an animal lover since forever,.It kind of looks to me as though my yellow lab, Markie, named after theactress Markie Post, may not lose much by my just jumping in and feedingher vegetarian.But I don't know where to start. For example, I was giving her a fewgrapes now and then last summer, which she loved, and then I read thatgrapes are toxic to dogs. So I'm a little nervous to just go feeding hera "raw food" diet.I will appreciate any helpful

thoughts.TerriLynne

[Guest guest]

TerriLynne, I have a 6yo Golden retriever who has been fed a prey model

natural raw diet since I brought her home at 7wo. She has never been

supplemented with anything. She eats as close as I can approximate to what

she would eat in the wild...meat, bones, offal, with some above-ground

veggies/fruits (mostly, the two-leggeds leftovers). There is no reason a

properly fed natural raw diet would need supplementation.

As far as a dog being fed a vegetarian diet, you would be doing her a

disservice. Dogs have 99.9% of the DNA of wolves. They are carnivores.

Opportunistic carnivores because they'll eat whatever they can find (which

is why I feed her above-ground veggies and fruits, because she may find them

in the wild, but not underground ones or grains), but carnivores

nonetheless.

I am a co-moderator on a list called NaturalRawDog

(naturalrawdog-subscribe ) and you can find out much more

there. The people on that list feed as I do.

Sounds to me like there may be an over-vaccination issue also, especially

since she's a service dog. They are more stringently under veterinary care

and are therefore vaccinated more often, at least the vast majority are,

unless you have a more knowledgeable veterinarian. Certainly, at 9yo your

dog doesn't need any more vaccinations. (I would argue that she didn't need

any in the first place, but that's another topic.)

Sharyn & Cedar the Golden nudge

St. Cassie (at the Bridge, 1988-2000)

-----Original Message-----

From: health

[mailto:health ] On Behalf Of TerriLynne

I have read somewhat about varying ideas for diets for dogs. Some people

believe in the bones and raw food (BARF) diet, but, to my way of

thinking, it is not a good and sufficient diet because it requires

supplementation. And so, finally, we are down to my question:

Theoretically, can a dog be a vegetarian?

I would like to make a diet change that would really help my dog, but

I'm just not sure what that change should be. In some ways, the BARF

diet does seem like a good idea, the way they eat in the wild, etcetera,

but the need for supplementation says to me that it isn't working.

What are your thoughts? Can anyone recommend any further reading that

would be helpful?

[Guest guest]

I too, feed Ziggy (the 7 yo Welsh Cogi who runs the house) an all raw diet. He gets a chicken neck (YES you can feed them raw chicken bones) in the a.m. first thing and for dinner he gets raw turkey, organs, etc... much similar to what Sharyn feeds her dog.

Zig has no bad breath and no fleas. HOWEVER! He did break a tooth on a bone. When I called the vet and told her my dog has a cracked tooth, her reply was "let me guess it's such and such a tooth and he's a Corgi." Apparently Corgi's are known for being relentless chewers and he got the bone down to the size it would fit in his mouth and he did just that - put the whole thing in his mouth and bit down and splayed his teeth to the point of splitting. $800 later his tooth was extracted. Now his bones are enormous and when they get to be the size of his mouth, I throw them in the garbage Vet dentist said he had the cleanest teeth of any dog she's ever had to work on.

Another positive slant for an all raw dog - the crows come and take away his poop. It's full of carrots and cashews and orange pulp to name a few of his favorites. I guess the crows are pretty well fed in my backyard as well!

Shari

[Guest guest]

Hi Sharon,

She really hasn't had a lot of vaccinations. I just haven't gotten them

for her. I have had to get her rabies shots updated so that she can

travel, and even go to a groomer.

I have had a number of people from vets to dog massage therapists tell

me that the BARF diet needs quite a bit of supplementation. One person

started with BARF, then had some tests done on her dog(s) and discovered

that the animal was low in a couple of areas. I am told that on BARF one

of the minerals is too high, and another is low. Can't remember which,

but I am thinking that they said that it is a high phosphorus diet.

TerriLynne

[Guest guest]

I believe raw diet will help. Check out BARF or Raw Food Diet Dogs

at . Doesn't matter where you live, like here, but get

sound advice from others like me. My dog is I believe 8 and is doing

fabulous on raw then 7 years. She is full of live, runs all the

time in our acres and eats only raw. Processed dog food I believe

has no nutrients so just pumping dog up with food, but not life is

myu theory.

synergy has liquid glucosamine for dogs too I believe...may check

that link.....check Suzi post for address if you can't find it.

On egroups go with a group with lots of people as they will flood

you with information. Shari and I both feed dog raw. Shari may be a

better source of wisdom, but so far so good. Check Shirley's

wellness cafe...do google for that.

What about barley powder for the dog?????

2 hour massage for the dog. Wonder if that is way too much. I know

hr. for me is a bit much and two people working on the dog...is that

overkill perhaps. Just something to think about. Any holistic vets

in your area? Where are you?

I'm not always present as before since I read my mail from the

website and not my email but do check 1-2x daily. Keep us posted. I

love dogs, Gloria loves cats, but together we love pets.

carolg

>

> Terri Lynne

>

> If you can find a vet who has low level laser therapy it will do

wonders for arthritis. ALso a raw meat diet is by far the best with

vegetables.

>

>

> ----- Original Message -----

> From: TerriLynne

> health

> Sent: Wednesday, January 17, 2007 9:41 AM

> Subject: Re: Feeding pets, dogs, cats

>

>

> Hi all,

> I hope this isn't too off topic, but I am seeking some serious

thoughts

> here, and of the several lists to which I belong, I think you

guys have

> the greatest combined mind.

>

> Let me first tell you my story, and then my question with

speculations.

> I have a yellow labrador retriever who turned 9 years old in

December,

> 2006. She has been my guide dog since 1999. I retired her

because at

> times, she can't walk fast when we are in a hurry to catch a

bus, and

> sometimes she limps. I have started her on msm and glucosamine.

>

> But there have been worse times. Last summer, while visiting

Florida,

> she became almost comatose at times, would walk close to the

wall,

> leaning on it for support, and, in short, scared me to death. One

> veterinary nurse asked me if she had had a stroke, one symptom

of which

> was to walk along leaning on the wall. I really couldn't be sure

of

> anything, except that a couple of symptoms matched. While we

were there,

> I took her to an accupuncturist, and it seemed to revive her a

lot. I

> also had her undergo a 2-hour dog massage, during which the two

people

> working on her found two lumps under the skin.

>

> I don't want to put her through a lot of medical mumbo jumbo to

find out

> what, if anything, she has. I did have a blood workup done when

we got

> home, but it came back normal.

>

> Yesterday, she seemed fine when she awoke, but later on in the

day, she

> began walking VERY slowly. A little after that, she threw up,

which had

> no impact on making her feel better. She continued very slow.

Today,

> she is still sluggish.

>

> I have read somewhat about varying ideas for diets for dogs.

Some people

> believe in the bones and raw food (BARF) diet, but, to my way of

> thinking, it is not a good and sufficient diet because it

requires

> supplementation. And so, finally, we are down to my question:

>

> Theoretically, can a dog be a vegetarian? A raw vegetarian? If

you are

> Christian, you may be familiar with the part of the bible that

says that

> at some point, the lion will lie down with the kid. If you take

this

> literally, which I do, wouldn't you think that a dog could become

> vegetarian?

>

> I would like to make a diet change that would really help my

dog, but

> I'm just not sure what that change should be. In some ways, the

BARF

> diet does seem like a good idea, the way they eat in the wild,

etcetera,

> but the need for supplementation says to me that it isn't

working.

>

> What are your thoughts? Can anyone recommend any further reading

that

> would be helpful?

>

> I once knew a woman who fed her cat totally vegetarian. But it

has been

> 30 years since I have seen her, and I don't even know if she

still

> lives.

>

> BTW, I have a cat and second dog. I am an animal lover since

forever,.

> It kind of looks to me as though my yellow lab, Markie, named

after the

> actress Markie Post, may not lose much by my just jumping in and

feeding

> her vegetarian.

>

> But I don't know where to start. For example, I was giving her a

few

> grapes now and then last summer, which she loved, and then I

read that

> grapes are toxic to dogs. So I'm a little nervous to just go

feeding her

> a " raw food " diet.

>

> I will appreciate any helpful thoughts.

>

> TerriLynne

>

[Guest guest]

Sharyn,

Great post. My dog is on strike for several months from all but raw

meat including game. She's doing great and no supplementation.

Thanks for that group address. Will look into that when I get back

from TX trip.

hugs,

carolg

>

> TerriLynne, I have a 6yo Golden retriever who has been fed a prey

model

> natural raw diet since I brought her home at 7wo. She has never

been

> supplemented with anything. She eats as close as I can

approximate to what

> she would eat in the wild...meat, bones, offal, with some above-

ground

> veggies/fruits (mostly, the two-leggeds leftovers). There is no

reason a

> properly fed natural raw diet would need supplementation.

>

> As far as a dog being fed a vegetarian diet, you would be doing

her a

> disservice. Dogs have 99.9% of the DNA of wolves. They are

carnivores.

> Opportunistic carnivores because they'll eat whatever they can

find (which

> is why I feed her above-ground veggies and fruits, because she may

find them

> in the wild, but not underground ones or grains), but carnivores

> nonetheless.

>

> I am a co-moderator on a list called NaturalRawDog

> (naturalrawdog-subscribe ) and you can find out

much more

> there. The people on that list feed as I do.

>

> Sounds to me like there may be an over-vaccination issue also,

especially

> since she's a service dog. They are more stringently under

veterinary care

> and are therefore vaccinated more often, at least the vast

majority are,

> unless you have a more knowledgeable veterinarian. Certainly, at

9yo your

> dog doesn't need any more vaccinations. (I would argue that she

didn't need

> any in the first place, but that's another topic.)

>

> Sharyn & Cedar the Golden nudge

> St. Cassie (at the Bridge, 1988-2000)

>

> -----Original Message-----

> From: health

> [mailto:health ] On Behalf Of

TerriLynne

>

> I have read somewhat about varying ideas for diets for dogs. Some

people

> believe in the bones and raw food (BARF) diet, but, to my way of

> thinking, it is not a good and sufficient diet because it requires

> supplementation. And so, finally, we are down to my question:

>

> Theoretically, can a dog be a vegetarian?

>

> I would like to make a diet change that would really help my dog,

but

> I'm just not sure what that change should be. In some ways, the

BARF

> diet does seem like a good idea, the way they eat in the wild,

etcetera,

> but the need for supplementation says to me that it isn't working.

>

> What are your thoughts? Can anyone recommend any further reading

that

> would be helpful?

>

[Guest guest]

I have my raw food dog 7 years and no vaccination ever since my

taking over. She's dong fabulous too.

carolg

>

> Hi Sharon,

> She really hasn't had a lot of vaccinations. I just haven't gotten

them

> for her. I have had to get her rabies shots updated so that she can

> travel, and even go to a groomer.

>

> I have had a number of people from vets to dog massage therapists

tell

> me that the BARF diet needs quite a bit of supplementation. One

person

> started with BARF, then had some tests done on her dog(s) and

discovered

> that the animal was low in a couple of areas. I am told that on

BARF one

> of the minerals is too high, and another is low. Can't remember

which,

> but I am thinking that they said that it is a high phosphorus diet.

>

> TerriLynne

>

[Guest guest]

Cedar has no bad breath and no fleas,

either. Also, we don’t vaccinate and don’t use heartworm

preventative and she tests negative for HW every year. And has never been sick

a day in her life.

Last night she had oxtail for dinner…the

night before pheasant. Although the pheasant will be a few and far between

treat because it was almost $6 a pound!

Sharyn

From:

health

[mailto:health ] On Behalf Of SV

Zig has no bad breath and no fleas.

[Guest guest]

I don't know much about the BARF diet. Maybe it does need supplementation.

Then it's not a proper diet for a dog. A proper diet doesn't need

supplementation. I feed the closest approximation to what Cedar would find

in the wild to eat as I can. When we've had bloodwork done, it's always

been perfect.

A dog needs more than just meat...it needs bones, too. Bones that it can

chew up and swallow. If it doesn't get bones, there will be too much

phosphorus in the diet. Bones provide the calcium to offset the phosphorus.

Sharyn

-----Original Message-----

From: health

[mailto:health ] On Behalf Of TerriLynne

I have had a number of people from vets to dog massage therapists tell

me that the BARF diet needs quite a bit of supplementation. One person

started with BARF, then had some tests done on her dog(s) and discovered

that the animal was low in a couple of areas. I am told that on BARF one

of the minerals is too high, and another is low. Can't remember which,

but I am thinking that they said that it is a high phosphorus diet.

[Guest guest]

Hi TerriLynne,

The other thing I could suggest, seeing as how acupuncture helped, is

to maybe try chiropractic too? I know it seems odd, because of her

throwing up etc, but there are many nerve roots that run through

vertebra, that send signals to many organs including the stomach.

Also, with a limp, or side leaning, a nerve could have some pressure

on it, or just not be communicating well. I know that often times,

when i am getting my stomach acting up, an ajustment will relieve

the full-lumpy feeling I have almost immediately. So why not for

dogs?

It may be worth a shot to seek a chiropractor for animals, (usually a

vet with specific credentials, or a chiropractor with the same animal

companion credentials) Often times, they will use what's called an

activator, or a small hand-held device to help adjust the dog's

spine. Adjusting their hips and sacral area often help dogs with

wobbler's syndromes etc, so, maybe worth a shot?

Try these sitesfor info and referrals if you are interested- and good

luck!

http://www.avcadoctors.com/

http://www.chiroweb.com/archives/16/17/08.html

http://www.avafrick.com/chiropractic.htm

This site is from Toronto, but will give good information and

testimonials - http://www.petsinmotion.ca/care4dogs.htm

best to you and your pets!

Anne

[Guest guest]

Hi

I would definetly second this thought. Find a Vet who has been trained in VOM it is a remarkable treatment and will do wonders for the spine and joints.

----- Original Message -----

From: Anne

health

Sent: Thursday, January 18, 2007 2:32 PM

Subject: Re: Feeding pets, dogs, cats

Hi TerriLynne,The other thing I could suggest, seeing as how acupuncture helped, is to maybe try chiropractic too? I know it seems odd, because of her throwing up etc, but there are many nerve roots that run through vertebra, that send signals to many organs including the stomach. Also, with a limp, or side leaning, a nerve could have some pressure on it, or just not be communicating well. I know that often times, when i am getting my stomach acting up, an ajustment will relieve the full-lumpy feeling I have almost immediately. So why not for dogs? It may be worth a shot to seek a chiropractor for animals, (usually a vet with specific credentials, or a chiropractor with the same animal companion credentials) Often times, they will use what's called an activator, or a small hand-held device to help adjust the dog's spine. Adjusting their hips and sacral area often help dogs with wobbler's syndromes etc, so, maybe worth a shot?Try these sitesfor info and referrals if you are interested- and good luck!http://www.avcadoctors.com/http://www.chiroweb.com/archives/16/17/08.htmlhttp://www.avafrick.com/chiropractic.htmThis site is from Toronto, but will give good information and testimonials - http://www.petsinmotion.ca/care4dogs.htmbest to you and your pets! Anne

[Guest guest]

Hi & ,

Great suggestions.

I will take her in for another acupuncture treatment. Right now, I don't

know of a chiropracter that works with dogs, but I'll check on it.

I'm also looking into a pre-prepared raw diet. It is 25% vegetables.

When I asked the company owner how they arrived at their percentages, he

told me that he was a New York policeman on the canine team, and they

experimented with different food combinations on their dogs. They made

their judgments based on the dog's attitude and activity as well as on

their bowel movements. I am going to call him back and find out if a

higher veggie content brought about a looser BM, because, I was just

thinking, that perhaps such a loose movement indicated a cleanse, rather

than a not-so-good diet. :-)

TerriLynne