Re: Boundaries between NHS and private treatment

[Guest guest]

Not sure about this . The way I look at this problem is that the ONLY medication for hypothyroidism offered now by the NHS is Levothyroxine. As this is an 'inactive' hormone and it has to convert through the liver to the 'active' hormone T3, and a large minority of sufferers cannot, for various reasons, convert, then there is no other medication that will be supplied by the NHS. Although Armour CAN be prescribed by NHS medical practitioners, there are very few as yet, who will do this, because they are being giving misleading and incorrect information by the BTA. Because Armour is not licensed within the UK, doctors think this is because it has had potency problems in the past so won't take responsibility for prescribing this. Also, for those NHS doctors who DO believe that Armour is the correct way to treat hypothyroid patients, they dare not prescribe it because they know they will probably be reported to the GMC for treating outside the BTA guidelines.

Some doctors will give a trial of T4/T3, but these doctors are becoming less and less - so there is NO alternative for these patients but to buy their hypothyroid medication from Internet Pharmacies, or seek private help and then get private prescriptions for Armour (or synthetic T3). I doubt this would be the same in our case, but you have raised an interesting point. Can anybody else throw some light on this.

Luv - Sheila

Hi All,In the newspapers recently there have been some articles about people with cancer having to pay for their own drugs and treatment - and then the NHS saying that their free NHS treatment will be withdrawn.Are we in the same boat???? If we self treat with Armour or pay to see someone like Dr P, will our NHS treatment be compromised?? How do we stand if we are diagnosed as hypothyroid by a private doctor and want hypothyroidism on our NHS medical notes but are perceived as 'normal' by NHS blood tests. If we then go on to have NHS confirm our condition and they know we have been using Armour, will that damage our case. In the case where a man with cancer was having to use his savings to buy a better drug, the Government says that such topping-up creates a two-tier health system. So if we cannot tolerate synthetic drugs and want natural thyroid like Armour which we buy ourselves - how do we stand?It may be that the NHS/government find an extra reason for denying people with thyroid conditions a better standard of health. B

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[Guest guest]

Hi ,

This is a worrying development indeed. I'm in a slightly different

boat as I have my NHS diagnosis of Hypo- it was that the thyroxine didn't

work and my GP, like so many, refuses to prescribe Armour, though she does

prescribe some of my T3 needs (I need ridiculously high doses of thyroid

meds to be well)- obviously I have to pay for the extra, though in a good

world I should have these free too.

There has always been a 2 tier system even from the inception of the NHS

with Docs insisting on the right to do private work. Without this right to

step into the private sector many of us just wouldn't get well at all and if

the NHS was to say choose then we would be in an expensive mess indeed,

especially if this was to extend to other conditions which we all tend to

have as we get older.

Subject: Boundaries between NHS and private

treatment

Hi All,

In the newspapers recently there have been some articles about people

with cancer having to pay for their own drugs and treatment - and

then the NHS saying that their free NHS treatment will be withdrawn.

Are we in the same boat???? If we self treat with Armour or pay to

see someone like Dr P, will our NHS treatment be compromised??

It may be that the NHS/government find an extra reason for denying

people with thyroid conditions a better standard of health.

B

------------------------------------

Messages are not a substitute for professional medical advice. Always

consult with a suitably qualified practitioner before changing

medication.

[Guest guest]

Hi there, the reason that cancer patients are refused their treatment is on cost.we how ever are refused because of lack of knowledge and doctors will not find the time to educate themselves. also they have been told that the TSH test is the only one necessary.this is also because of the cost of all the tests necessary to detect thyroid disease.there is no one test that will detect thyroid disease. only autoantibodes which may be in the blood or not as some patients will have them in there thyroid only. possibly in the Early stages.it is expensive to order a load of tests which don`t show what is actually happeningto us as we are all individuals when it comes to thyroid disease. I would sagest that you mention to your

doctor that only the FT4 and FT3 and also TPOab tests are necessary,and if that don`t show up any thing then I would ask to see endo and get a fine needle examdone. angel. who have been let down by the medical profession.lol.

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[Guest guest]

hi angel; exactly how nasty is the fine needle biopsy ? it sounds

seriously unpleasant regards jane

>

> Hi there, the reason that cancer patients are refused their

treatment is on cost.

> we how ever are refused because of lack of knowledge and doctors

will not find the time to educate themselves. also they have been

told that the TSH test is the only one necessary.

> this is also because of the cost of all the tests necessary to

detect thyroid disease.

> there is no one test that will detect thyroid disease. only

autoantibodes which may be in the blood or not as some patients will

have them in there thyroid only. possibly in the Early stages.it is

expensive to order a load of tests which don`t show what is actually

happening

> to us as we are all individuals when it comes to thyroid disease. I

would sagest that you mention to your doctor that only the FT4 and

FT3 and also TPOab tests are necessary,

> and if that don`t show up any thing then I would ask to see endo

and get a fine needle exam

> done. angel. who have been let down by the medical profession.lol.

>

>

>

>

> __________________________________________________________

> Sent from .

> A Smarter Email http://uk.docs./nowyoucan.html

>

[Guest guest]

Hi All,

The NHS could take all this a step further - if anyone buys a cold

remedy, headache pills, muscle rub etc., then they could say that they

are treating themselves and therefore will not qualify for NHS

treatment.

Anything is possible :0

B

[Guest guest]

Hi Jane, I was not speaking from experience , but i understand from reading about it that it is not to be used lightly. but having said that if it means that a diagnoses is made (and you are treated as having a real problem not an imaginary one) then it could be worth it to have a little bit of discomfort. umm lol. angel.

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A Smarter Email.

[Guest guest]

Hi

I'm a bit of a lurker these days as I don't often have much to

contribute, but maybe I can here!

A consultant advising privately can refer into the NHS for

treatment: it used to be fairly common in orthopaedics when the

waiting lists were longer, and this is definitely Dr Skinner's

approach - although that's not much help if the GP won't prescribe

Armour,anyway.

My own GP, who falls into the " won't prescribe Armour " category,

though he was happy enough to prescribe levothyroxine under advice

from Dr Skinner, subsequently decided that his practice - and

therefore the NHS as far as I am concerned - would not treat any

condition related to my thyroid, but would treat any unrelated

problems.

While this is leaves a great deal to be desired (who can say exactly

what problems are thyroid related?) - it may indicate the approach

that the NHS will take.

Personally I feel extremely bitter about the whole situation, but

that's a different story!

Lindean

>

> Hi All,

>

> In the newspapers recently there have been some articles about

people

> with cancer having to pay for their own drugs and treatment - and

> then the NHS saying that their free NHS treatment will be

withdrawn.

>

> Are we in the same boat???? If we self treat with Armour or pay

to

> see someone like Dr P, will our NHS treatment be compromised??

>

> How do we stand if we are diagnosed as hypothyroid by a private

> doctor and want hypothyroidism on our NHS medical notes but are

> perceived as 'normal' by NHS blood tests. If we then go on to have

> NHS confirm our condition and they know we have been using Armour,

> will that damage our case.

>

> In the case where a man with cancer was having to use his savings

to

> buy a better drug, the Government says that such topping-up

creates a

> two-tier health system. So if we cannot tolerate synthetic drugs

and

> want natural thyroid like Armour which we buy ourselves - how do

we

> stand?

>

> It may be that the NHS/government find an extra reason for denying

> people with thyroid conditions a better standard of health.

>

> B

>

[Guest guest]

Hi

The Duties of a Doctor states....................support patients in

caring for themselves to improve and maintain their health.......does

this mean we can get private treatment and still get NHS support?

B

[Guest guest]

Hi,

Oh I wish!

> thyroid treatment > From: frances.sacramento@...> Date: Wed, 11 Jun 2008 15:33:07 +0000> Subject: Re: Boundaries between NHS and private treatment> > Hi> > The Duties of a Doctor states....................support patients in > caring for themselves to improve and maintain their health.......does > this mean we can get private treatment and still get NHS support?> > B> > > ------------------------------------> > Messages are not a substitute for professional medical advice. Always consult with a suitably qualified practitioner before changing medication.

[Guest guest]

Lindean, I understand exactly what you mean. My previous doctor did just that. Told me he would treat everything but any thyroid related conditions (I was getting T3 from a private doctor - not even Armour). However, every time I went to him for ANYTHING he implied it was all thyroid related and just would not treat me for anything (except the diabetes which he had to).

I changed doctors and am now out of the fat into the fire. This one has threatened to take me off his list altogether unless I take thyroxine alone at 100mcg a day.

Lilian

A consultant advising privately can refer into the NHS for treatment: it used to be fairly common in orthopaedics when the waiting lists were longer, and this is definitely Dr Skinner's approach - although that's not much help if the GP won't prescribe Armour,anyway.

[Guest guest]

Hi Lindean

I wonder if the following might help explain things, perhaps we need to

start campaigning on another level. I received the following from a guy

I am working with in America. He talks about the 'mimics' of

hypothyroidism and states...

" If we absorb the definition of " hypothyroidism " we will see that the

guidelines for diagnosis and treatment are correct ...as far as they go.

The argument for victims of continuing symptoms or those who have

symptoms with " normal " thyroid thyroid function tests, is that they are

NOT suffering from hypothyroidism. They are suffering from a mimic - a

post-thyroid malady. These are deficient peripheral metabolism and

deficient peripheral cellular hormone reception.

Please also note that for nearly a century prior to 1970, the thyroid

was believed to be directly connected to the symptoms. That paradigm

has not been altered by medical science. This paradigm is further

supported by Abbott because it promotes the levothyroxine-only

therapy concept.

So what are the choices? (1) consider these maladies to be quite

separate from hypothyroidism and allow physicians to act upon their own

until a guideline is written. Or (2) broaden the scope of the

hypothyroidism guideline to include the diagnostics and therapies for

the mimics.

I do not believe either will happen without significant outside pressure

because Abbott is supporting the confusion. They are paying out lots of

money to support their levothyroxine-only (and preferrably Synthroid)

therapies. To actually allow either of the above to happen

would provide credence to all of the T3-containing hormone replacements.

And that would provide credence to desiccated thyroid, a.k.a. Armour,

etc. This is why I think it is a antitrust / fair competition issue.

When you look at the assays for hypothyroidism, you might ask what do

they do. The TSH test measures the thyroid " input " . The fT4 test

measures the thyroid " output. " The antibody tests check to see if the

thyroid internals are OK. It is all about the thyroid. But then that

is the proper meaning, the AACE meaning, the ATA meaning, even the

Abbott meaning of hypothyroidism. So the application of the

hypothyroidism guideline to post-thyroid issues is simply wrong " .

The problem is simple. Nobody really acknowledges that post thyroid

issues exist. For example Google " 's Syndrome " and read what the

ATA has to say about it. promotes a time-release T3, which the

ATA claims is not necessary. It not necessary, among other reasons,

because the peripheral metabolism is " regulated. " Well, to say that you

never neet T3 is to say that the peripheral metabolism can never fail.

....

Oh, give me a break!

* * * * *

>

> Hi

>

> I'm a bit of a lurker these days as I don't often have much to

> contribute, but maybe I can here!

>

> A consultant advising privately can refer into the NHS for

> treatment: it used to be fairly common in orthopaedics when the

> waiting lists were longer, and this is definitely Dr Skinner's

> approach - although that's not much help if the GP won't prescribe

> Armour,anyway.

>

> My own GP, who falls into the " won't prescribe Armour " category,

> though he was happy enough to prescribe levothyroxine under advice

> from Dr Skinner, subsequently decided that his practice - and

> therefore the NHS as far as I am concerned - would not treat any

> condition related to my thyroid, but would treat any unrelated

> problems.

>

> While this is leaves a great deal to be desired (who can say exactly

> what problems are thyroid related?) - it may indicate the approach

> that the NHS will take.

>

> Personally I feel extremely bitter about the whole situation, but

> that's a different story!

>

> Lindean

>

>

[Guest guest]

Hi Lilian,

You really haven’t had

much luck with docs have you?

Subject: Re:

Re: Boundaries between NHS and private treatment

I changed doctors and am now out of the fat into the

fire. This one has threatened to take me off his list

altogether unless I take thyroxine alone at 100mcg a day.

Lilian

[Guest guest]

You can say that again

I think it must be the area, even my lovely private doctor who was prescribing the T3 has abandoned us and gone to practice in York and I do not know any other private doctor within 30 miles who does. The others are all in London and I am just physically unable to go there nor to afford to pay the fares, their fees, and the prescription.

Lilian

You really haven’t had much luck with docs have you?

[Guest guest]

Hi Sheila,

Ok ,if this chap is right then why does Armour work so well? I'm

sure I didn't psychosomatically lose that 2 stone along with all my other

symptoms. I really blow my top when I hear this it's all in your head stuff!

Subject: Re: Boundaries between NHS and private

treatment

The problem is simple. Nobody really acknowledges that post thyroid

issues exist. For example Google " 's Syndrome " and read what the

ATA has to say about it. promotes a time-release T3, which the

ATA claims is not necessary. It not necessary, among other reasons,

because the peripheral metabolism is " regulated. " Well, to say that you

never neet T3 is to say that the peripheral metabolism can never fail.

...

Oh, give me a break!

* * * * *

>

> Hi

>

> I'm a bit of a lurker these days as I don't often have much to

> contribute, but maybe I can here!

>

> A consultant advising privately can refer into the NHS for

> treatment: it used to be fairly common in orthopaedics when the

> waiting lists were longer, and this is definitely Dr Skinner's

> approach - although that's not much help if the GP won't prescribe

> Armour,anyway.

>

> My own GP, who falls into the " won't prescribe Armour " category,

> though he was happy enough to prescribe levothyroxine under advice

> from Dr Skinner, subsequently decided that his practice - and

> therefore the NHS as far as I am concerned - would not treat any

> condition related to my thyroid, but would treat any unrelated

> problems.

>

> While this is leaves a great deal to be desired (who can say exactly

> what problems are thyroid related?) - it may indicate the approach

> that the NHS will take.

>

> Personally I feel extremely bitter about the whole situation, but

> that's a different story!

>

> Lindean

>

>

------------------------------------

Messages are not a substitute for professional medical advice. Always

consult with a suitably qualified practitioner before changing

medication.

[Guest guest]

>

> Hi All,

>

> In the newspapers recently there have been some articles about people

> with cancer having to pay for their own drugs and treatment - and

> then the NHS saying that their free NHS treatment will be withdrawn.

>

> Are we in the same boat???? If we self treat with Armour or pay to

> see someone like Dr P, will our NHS treatment be compromised??

>

> How do we stand if we are diagnosed as hypothyroid by a private

> doctor and want hypothyroidism on our NHS medical notes but are

> perceived as 'normal' by NHS blood tests. If we then go on to have

> NHS confirm our condition and they know we have been using Armour,

> will that damage our case.

>

> In the case where a man with cancer was having to use his savings to

> buy a better drug, the Government says that such topping-up creates a

> two-tier health system. So if we cannot tolerate synthetic drugs and

> want natural thyroid like Armour which we buy ourselves - how do we

> stand?

>

> It may be that the NHS/government find an extra reason for denying

> people with thyroid conditions a better standard of health.

>

> B

I buy Armour, if they go down that road of not treating me on the nhs

for other illnesses or ones that are related to my thyroid illness

because I buy armour then I would say give me my thyroxine script go

and get it from the pharmacy and just not take it, what can they

prove!!! They cant prove anything.

Carol

>

[Guest guest]

He's agreeing , just got his tongue in the side of his mouth and

being a little sarcy - that is why he says ... " give me a break " out of

exasperation.

Luv - Sheila

>

> Hi Sheila,

> Ok ,if this chap is right then why does Armour work so well? I'm

> sure I didn't psychosomatically lose that 2 stone along with all my

other

> symptoms. I really blow my top when I hear this it's all in your head

stuff!

>

>

>

> Subject: Re: Boundaries between NHS and

private

> treatment

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

What a shame we might have to lie. I would have no alternative though,

they have me hooked on psyche meds and stuff and I have bp lowering

drugs. No way I could afford all that as well as my much needed

supplements.

So if we can campaign for metabolic conditions related to

hypothyroidism would that be more useful do you think?

lotsa luv

Dawnx

[Guest guest]

hi lillian; do i understand you right in that you take both armour and thyroxine ? if so what sort of strength are you using ? regards jane

Sent from .

A Smarter Email.

[Guest guest]

Hey Shiela

Do the docs acknowledge the existance of euthyroid sick syndrome?

Perhaps campaigning for different drugs on that front might work? You

might have a point and a different strategy might be worth pursuing.

lotsa luv

Dawnx

[Guest guest]

Oh wait a min tho, this looks just FAR too complicated to campaign

about eeek

http://www.emedicine.com/med/topic753.htm

sorry

luv Dawnx

[Guest guest]

Hi Dawn,

It means that thyroid levels drop when the patient is ill through

other causes- part of the survival mechanism- those who survive starvation

often go on to have hypo problems, and their grandchildren too ( but that

bit isn't in you article)

Subject: Re: Boundaries between NHS and private

treatment

Oh wait a min tho, this looks just FAR too complicated to campaign

about eeek

http://www.emedicine.com/med/topic753.htm

sorry

luv Dawnx

------------------------------------

Messages are not a substitute for professional medical advice. Always

consult with a suitably qualified practitioner before changing

medication.

[Guest guest]

Thanks

I had heard the name somewhere and thought it was something like

people being euthyroid but still having symptoms, I must have got the

wrong name. As you say different thing altogether.

Yes I have definately got the wrong name because doctors have a name

for that they call it 'depressed'.

lotsa luv

Dawnx

-

[Guest guest]



Jane, you must be getting a bit paranoic, thinking we are all giving you the cold shoulder. I am 7,547 messages behind and have been reading current ones, and gradually reading the older ones, and I have just come across the one you wrote to me in June.

So sorry I hadn't replied (and to anyone else who has written subsequently - I will get to you eventually I am sure).

Of course, your question to me has all changed now, since I have been having the problems with my GP. When I was taking Armour, and being extremely well on it, I found that I did not need any extra thyroxine or T3, but I know someone who cannot afford to buy the amount of Armour she needs, so she buys half the Armour and supplements with T3 and thyroxine.

I think a lot depends on each person. Some need extra T3, some need extra T4. I was on 5 grains Armour and it was perfect for me. I think it is Sheila who tops up with thyroxine.

Lilian

hi lillian; do i understand you right in that you take both armour and thyroxine ? if so what sort of strength are you using ? regards jane

[Guest guest]

HI Lilian - is the fact that your doctor has stopped your Armour

and put you back onto levothyroxine only been the cause of you not being able

to keep up with the messages - do you no longer have the energy to do this? I

HATE these doctors who simply refuse to look at the science, when it is out

that and has been for over 40 years, and because of that, they are continuing

to make their patients ill, whether they like it or not. Please go back to

Armour and come back to us.

Luv - Sheila



Jane, you must be getting a bit paranoic, thinking we are all

giving you the cold shoulder. I am 7,547 messages

behind and have been reading current ones, and gradually reading the

older ones, and I have just come across the one you wrote to me in June.

 

[Guest guest]



I think it possibly accounts for a lot, because I am less able to concentrate on longer messages, also it makes my eyes ache more, and the need to close them and go to sleep. And it does go back to June/July when the Armour was stopped.

Having recently got the (new) endo to prescribe T3, albeit in a microscopic dose, I am hoping at my next visit, in about 6 weeks, that he will raise it. When it is raised to a dose equal to a grain of Armour I will switch to Armour. I am hoping that the equivalent in Armour will not change my blood test results significantly from T3/T4 combination as it would from just T4. Would anyone know if that is the case or not?

Also, if he can see the T3 has made an improvement, I might even be able to persuade him that Armour would be even better for me.

However, on 5mcg T3 a day plus 125 mcg Thyroxine, it barely makes a difference.

I have not yet seen my GP since the endo prescribed the T3 so am not sure what his reaction is. The endo prescribed enough T3 (at that dose) to last until I see him again.

Lilian

HI Lilian - is the fact that your doctor has stopped your Armour and put you back onto levothyroxine only been the cause of you not being able to keep up with the messages - do you no longer have the energy to do this?