You've gotta smile ..... ;o)

[Guest guest]

Hello ladies and gentlemen - time for telling you a funny interlude with my GP yesterday, to cheer you all up a little on this miserable, rainy Thursday evening .....

According to Dr. P. and some IWDL lab tests one year ago I am what is commonly known as 'subclinically hypothyroid' with all figures borderline .... but have a list of complaints as long as my arm. With the help of NAE, Thyro-Complex, Nutri Thyroid, Q10, SAMe, Vit C and Red Clover (but no Armour as yet) and tubs and tubs of other supplements for different ailments over the past 12 months I got by and slowly but surely improved my health. For good measure I had all of my amalgam fillings removed - unbeknown to me 15 in total (the little nasties were hiding underneath my caps - disgraceful !!) ... 3 still in situ (but not for much longer....) and I've changed my toothpaste to fluoride-free.... All in all I felt I had picked myself up and was doing pretty good

But those supplements - at the rate I am consuming them - cost a lot of money, and I can't go on like this indefinitely ... plus - I was feeling 75% , but not 100%.... So I decided I would go and (after 3 years of no-show) pay a visit to my GP, who is blissfully unaware of any of the foregoing. I did not feel any need to let him know exactly what I was up to, save to tell him that I have a severe family history of Hypothyroidism on both sides (which is the truth), and that I was concerned about all those symptoms (also very true). My GP is a kind man, and he likes me ;o) (which helps - I usually get what I want from him) ... but he does not believe in the power of supplements, so I didn't bother to mention them specifically, except for SAMe, which I take mainly because of my Osteoarthritis with good results, but SAMe also acts as a natural anti-depressant, which comes in handy....

My appointment went a bit like this.....

I pushed a list over the desk with all my symptoms and apologized for coming with a wish list for tests, but my memory was not that good these days and I needed to write everything down... No problem he smiles and studies the list..... - Guess which symptom he homed in on?..... the very low basal temps? the constant drop of BP with Raglan's test? the delayed Achilles reflex? my unstable pupillary reflexes? my continuing hot flushes after 10 menopausal years ?....

Nope !... no prizes for guessing..... it's --- yeah ! the depression (!) which I had marked with 'SAMe improving this greatly' -

Doc questions.... what is SAMe.? ... so I explained.

Next thing I know he shoves a questionnaire under my nose, with very badly formulated questions - this is apparently the NHS questionnaire for evaluating depression..... scored a 12 - so it's official - I am clinically depressed

doc: ... would you like some counselling?

me: - no thank you,

doc: - would you like to see a psychologist?

me: ... well, not particularly, what would he do?

doc: - probably prescribe some anti-depressants...

me: ... hmmmm - but I won't take any anti-depressants.

doc: well, it might help to just have 5 or 6 sessions to talk things through

me: with all of those symptoms, is it not likely that I am becoming hypothyroid ? - after all, both my parents were hypoT and the rest of my fathers family and practically all of my cousins and their children are as well ....

doc: so you think you are hypothyroid?

me: I don't know, this is why I'd like a blood test

doc: Yes, of course, we will have to check that - so we'll do a TSH and T4 first.....

me: ... can I have a T3 too please?

doc: yes, that's sensible... - I'll mark it down

me: ... and could I have B12, Ferritin and Magnesium checked too please?

doc: (with slightly surprised shocked look on his face) - hmmm, yes, I suppose we can do that - and check the FBCs and a Biochem and Oestradiol ...

me: oh great, thank you - and perhaps thyroid Autoantibodies, just to rule out Hashimoto's?

doc: (another surprised look) but th.... well yes - that's a good idea.... I'll mark it down.

me: thank you, that is very kind (flashing a big smile)

doc: now - how about the psychologist.....

me: can we see what the blood results come up with first ?

doc: yes ... so you would go and see one if the depression were not due to thyroid problems?

me: yes, sure - but I would not take any drugs to sedate myself

doc: but you are taking drugs now - (SAMe)

me: SAMe is not a hard drug

doc: (smiles) - what is it then?

me: a food supplement

doc: but it influences your mood and behaviour

me: yes (I smile ...- I mean, what else am I supposed to do? give him a lecture on the difference between habit forming hard drugs and food supplements??)

Never mind.... I got what I wanted - he approved X-rays of my neck and hips too .... both are very painful - I know I have degenerative changes of my vertebrae from previous X-rays, but it's got a lot worse since then. Dunno anything about my hips, other than they hurt

He also offered to send me to a 'thyroid specialist' if the results come back low - I did not even have to ask. - And he proposed to have another echo done of my aorta (terrible family history of aneurysms) .... so all in all, a successfully spent mornings doc session, I thought

Now... his ideas and mine about low thyroid and high TSH will no doubt differ 'a little'. So I chatted away and planted the seed that personally I consider anything above TSH 2 as suspect and anything above 3 as hypothyroid (my last TSH was 2.7 three years ago) .... and so do the American Endos and the Germans too (I'm German).... well, I know that's a bit of a sweeping statement, but I just wanted to establish the bottom line that recognition how ill you are depends on the country you happen to be living in.

As of yesterday I have stopped all thyroid supplements 'cold turkey' to get them out of my system for the blood test - the aches and pains have already made a re-appearance, but so far, so good. I'll manage. I will go and have my blood taken mid- to end of next week. Hopefully by then my system will be clear of any traces of thyroid glandulars, adrenal and pituitary. If my thyroid test comes back low (low in my eyes) and the TSH high (in my eyes) I will ask for a trial of thyroxine... - and he will refuse... he will push the 'depression' re-play button, and I will agree to see a psychologist, if that makes him happy - never know, I might learn something, and I can use it as a trade-off .... but I will also say that I intend to treat myself with Armour, with or without his approval. He can put it down to my being depressed if he wants

Hope I have managed to raise a little smile on all your faces now ..... Any tips for any other little tactical movements?

Love,

PS - I am aware that the request for T3 is nearly always ignored, but I will make a point of having a note attached when I have the blood taken - saying that the T3 needs to be done, come hell or high water - please check with patients GP... or something to that effect -- and then I'll start praying

[Guest guest]

Well clearly you are a charming and persuasive lass! You got pretty

much everything you wanted so it's well worth the effort of sweet

talking the doc.

Wouldn't it be great if your TSH confirms hypoT and he agrees a

trial of armour?? Realistically even a T4 trial would be pretty

wonderful.

Luv Bella

> not likely that I am becoming hypothyroid ? - after all, both my

parents

> were hypoT and the rest of my fathers family and practically all

of my

> cousins and their children are as well .... doc: so you think you

are

> hypothyroid? me: I don't know, this is why I'd like a blood test

doc:

> Yes, of course, we will have to check that - so we'll do a TSH

and T4

> first..... me: ... can I have a T3 too please? doc: yes, that's

> sensible... - I'll mark it down me: ... and could I have B12,

> Ferritin and Magnesium checked too please? doc: (with slightly

> surprised shocked look on his face) - hmmm, yes, I suppose we

can do

> that - and check the FBCs and a Biochem and Oestradiol ... me:

oh

> great, thank you - and perhaps thyroid Autoantibodies, just to

rule out

> Hashimoto's? doc: (another surprised look) but th.... well yes -

that's

[Guest guest]

Hi ,

Oh beautifully done!

Let’s hope the lab will do the

T3 as requested and not be awkward.

If it still comes back as ‘borderline’

then remind doc that depression is a hypo symptoms and is alleviated with a

raise in the T3 levels ( I have heard of psychiatrists prescribing it for this)

but a psych diagnosis can be a poisoned chalice as it can lead to everything

you complain of being put down to ‘all in you mind’.

T3 should also help with your joint

pains- you may like to go on the main http://www.thyoid.about.com hypo

board ( just click on forums button down on the left hand side- it’s a

long way down!.) and talk to Fred about osteoarthritis- he’s always there

and is very knowledgeable and helpful.

If my thyroid test comes

back low (low in my eyes) and the TSH high (in my eyes) I will ask for a trial

of thyroxine... - and he will refuse... he will push the 'depression' re-play

button, and I will agree to see a psychologist, if that makes him happy -

never know, I might learn something, and I can use it as a trade-off

.... but I will also say that I intend to treat myself with Armour, with

or without his approval. He can put it down to my being depressed if he

wants

Love,

[Guest guest]

Oh - this is good for the soul - I so enjoyed reading your experience and well done! Keep us informed and I hope this story has a very happy ending. I somehow think it will.

Luv - Sheila

Hello ladies and gentlemen - time for telling you a funny interlude with my GP yesterday, to cheer you all up a little on this miserable, rainy Thursday evening .....

..

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[Guest guest]

Oh yes! (Grins)

I'm curious about this NHS depression questionaire you were made to

fill out. What sort of things did it ask?

I had a huge argument with the lady doctor at my health practice a

few years back and she retaliated by saying I was depressed. My TSH

was slightly under the 5.5 mark at the time and, to cut a long story

short, she said she would only consider changing my diagnosis once

the normal range had dropped to 3.00. I ended up having to fight for

a referal to the endo. My TSH had gone up to 7.18 BUT the endo only

considers consistant TSH's over 10 as indicating hypothyroidism -

even with a proven family history and many obvious symptoms.

Oh, yes and I have been offered prozac on countless ocassions. It is

enough to make me depressed! (which I'm not!)

Tracey

ps- is it legal to flog crates of prozac at a carboot sale/ebay? A

friend has saved drawerfuls of the stuff. She HAS to cash her

prescriptions to convince her employers (she works in a chemist)

that she is taking her medication so they won't sack her for all the

time she is off sick. There IS definitely something wrong with her

but it ain't depression!

[Guest guest]

Hi - why dont you say you dont have faith in psychologists but you would see a psychiatrist - by many accounts psychiatrists are better at diagnosing hypothyroidism that endocrinologists - so you might get a result by this back door!!!

Gill

[Guest guest]

Hello girls,

I'm pleased to have raised a smile

In fairness, my GP is rather sweet, and he did not try to rubbish anything I had said - but then... as I had mentioned, he seems to like me and I get the feeling he genuinely wants to help - even if IMO he is on the wrong track with his depression theory. Chances are, that he will not like me as much next time I see him, and we may have to agree to disagree over the results ....

Mind you - there is always the chance that this past year on NAE and Nutri-thyroid may have kick started my sluggish thyroid glands and healed my knackered adrenals and my blood test might be perfectly normal now, as I feel soo much better than a year ago...

Bella - yeah, that was the easy part, getting the blood tests out of him. Persuading him me to give me a trial run will be a different ball game. If my TSH is not above at least 3, he will tell me (again) that my parameters are beautifully bang in the middle of the norm range (0 - 5 he told me) and that depression can cause most of the symptoms I have listed... which I will not agree with, as to the best of my knowledge clinical depression does not cause classic hypothyroid symptoms, whereas Hypothyroidism can be the cause of depression.... even if our dear Prof. Weetman believes we are all nut cases.

- I will do my best to get a T3 out of them. I might be in with a chance, as I believe the bloods are done in-house, and not send away to some far-away lab. - Thanks for the link to the hypo board. I'll have a nose-around on there.

You are quite right about doc's putting everything down to depression. I am worried to be labelled 'depressed'. I made the mistake of being tearful during my last GP appointment that I had for a recurrent flu infection 3 years ago. I was very down, as I could not shake off this virus all winter. Every time I thought I was over it, I was flat on my face again, month after month. Having had personal problems on top of that made me cry on my GP's shoulder.... He obviously made a note in my file about this, as he questioned me straight away this time when he saw 'depression and anxiety' marked down amongst the other 38 clinical symptoms I had listed. Question is - why did he ignore the other 37 ??

Sheila - I will keep you all posted - wish I had your optimism about the happy ending....

Tracey - My goodness ! - TSH 5.5 and 7.18 ... I would be laughing all the way to the chemist, if my TSH came back that high. I just find it so hard to comprehend that you guys have so much trouble getting diagnosed and treated with parameters like that. ly, this is outrageous! - if I had a TSH that high and were refused treatment, I would vote with my feet and find a doctor who will prescribe medication and take me seriously.

Remember us talking about the amalgam fillings on the previous TPA list - and how my dentist refused to take them out because there was "no clinical necessity"? Well... we are best buddies now - all it took was to tell him straight that - sorry - but I was extremely concerned about my health, and because of his refusal to treat me I went to somebody who was willing to accommodate my wishes - and I did exactly that and let a "mercury-free" dentist replace all those fillings. Once my dentist realized I meant business AND I relayed that the other dentist has commented on one or two questionable teeth, his pride was dented and he changed his tune. Forthwith I am getting first class treatment - nothing is too much trouble ..... my knashers have gone from being declared in perfect order last June (yeah- right!!) to having 6 re-root fillings and 9 crowns replaced to date and 3 to come, exposing all those hidden amalgam crimes underneath... and all of this is done under the practice dental plan (which I have been paying for dearly every month), meaning I only have to foot the lab costs.

The questions on the NHS questionnaire were badly worded, and I had trouble to be clear in my mind what they were actually asking. There were about 8 or 10 questions..... how often do I experience a happy event during the day ? or something to that effect . - do I sleep more than normal? - am I suicidal? Is my speech slow? things like that. Pretty basic stuff. - I'll ask my GP for a copy next time I see him, then I can post the questions on here. I was amazed that the NHS is prepared to waste funds on referrals to counsellors and psychologists on the strength of something as trivial as this particular questionnaire. To determine if somebody is clinically depressed is IMO pretty obvious when you talk to a person and you see and hear the response. If I were Bipolar, and were to put crosses on such a questionnaire during a manic phase, nobody would ever be the wiser ... What a waste of resources !

Gill - sounds like a good plan - but if it did not work, it could back-fire und I might get "labelled". I would not want to take that risk. To be honest, I am not even happy to see a psychologist and hope that it will not come to that.

Love,