Re: itchy bumps - Borax query

[Guest guest]

Hi -

About the borax - may I ask where your information about toxicity in small amounts arises from?

And what sort of quantities and frequencies of ingestion would we be talking about?

How would the toxicity manifest itself?

Have you experienced this, and if so, what happened?

Only last night I was speaking with a friend who was lamenting the fact that it was no longer possible to buy this as tablets, as they had helped her so much with her problems. (The borax-for-arthritis saga in Australia is on the net). Many people take it every day just as it comes from the packet. In the past I have only heard about its lack of toxicity (though of course anything in excess is a bad thing).

Thanks

Rowena

I do worry about borax though and am very careful with it.It's highly antifungal, but also toxic in fairly small amounts.

..

[Guest guest]

But the laundry powder Twenty Mule Team Borax. Lick your index finger

and dip it into the powder. Lick it off your finger. 1 box should

last a lifetime for your self and everyone you know.

>

> Hi -

>

> About the borax - may I ask where your information about toxicity

in small amounts arises from?

> And what sort of quantities and frequencies of ingestion would we

be talking about?

> How would the toxicity manifest itself?

> Have you experienced this, and if so, what happened?

>

> Only last night I was speaking with a friend who was lamenting the

fact that it was no longer possible to buy this as tablets, as they

had helped her so much with her problems. (The borax-for-arthritis

saga in Australia is on the net). Many people take it every day

just as it comes from the packet. In the past I have only heard

about its lack of toxicity (though of course anything in excess is a

bad thing).

>

> Thanks

> Rowena

>

>

> I do worry about borax though and am very careful with it.

> It's highly antifungal, but also toxic in fairly small amounts.

> .

>

[Guest guest]

What I am concerned about, Comdyne, is that there should be information out there saying that it is very toxic. Makes me wonder who is putting this info out and why. According to my search today, it is about as toxic as salt. Everything is bad if you take too much, but the sites which say it is toxic look to me as if they are being shall we say over zealous, not to say manipulated/manipulative. There seems to have been a hate campaign against it at least since the company that was approached to make tablets on a big scale (it had previously been small scale elsewhere) got the Gvt to forbid it. People whose families work in US borax mines particularly commented how safe it was to deal with.

R

But the laundry powder Twenty Mule Team Borax. Lick your index finger and dip it into the powder.

[Guest guest]

The talk about Borax toxicity sent me on a search because I too believe it is

not very toxic at all. Sharon M

______________________________

boric acid v. 20 Mule Team borax

a.. Tue, Aug 3, 04 at 23:02

Yes, me again..

her math is fine, but the toxicity (LD50) of boric acid is not 1g/kg as

she says; it is really about 3g/kg (i.e., 3 times LESS TOXIC) according to

EXTOXNET (http://npic.orst.edu/factsheets/borictech.pdf), and many other sources

I have read. Therefore the kid she mentioned, would have to drink about 30 oz.

(nearly a quart) of the 5% ant bait to you-know-what himself. Oh, by the way the

LD50 of TABLE SALT is also about 3g/kg. In other words, boric acid is just as

toxic as table salt. So, don't leave any table salt around kids like that! Here

is a list of toxicities that I posted on some other page. The numbers will vary

some depending on which lab determines them and what animals are used in the

test.

I made the following list to show comparative toxicities of some common

products. I usually look at the toxicities of acute oral exposure to rats, and

these are expressed as " LD50's " or the Lethal Median Dose of a product,

expressed in milligrams (mg) of the product to kilograms (kg) of weight to the

exposed animal, so THE LOWER THE NUMBER, THE MORE TOXIC THE SUBSTANCE, and

higher numbers are less toxic products. This number says how many milligrams of

the product per kilogram of body weight actually killed 50% of the animals

(rats) tested. (Sorry, I can't get the numbers to stay in columns.)

TOXICITY OF SOME MATERIALS

Material....and Acute Oral LD50 (rat) in mg/kg (see above)

Nicotine 10 VERY TOXIC (but " organic " )

Toxaphene 29

Fipronil 95 (see Termidor below)

inon® 100

Gasoline 150

Caffeine 200

Sevin® 650

Aspirin 1,200

Malathion® 1,375

TimBor® (DOT) 2,500

Table Salt........ .....3,320...................

Baking Soda 4,200

Boric Acid 3,500

d-Limonene (orange oil) 5,300

Grain Alcohol 14,000

Niban® 60,000+

Termidor 0.06% spray 3,252,936 (= +-60 Gal/Kg for an adult)

I put out this list in the interest of promoting a better understanding of

the products many people are discussing in these pages and because some of the

comments I have been reading are sometimes very misleading. I don't mean to

criticize anyone.just sharing my thoughts.

**********************************************

FYI - I called the manufacturer of 20 Mule Team Borax and they told me

that it was 99.5% percent straight borax. So when I need to use borax, that is

what I use. It is cheaper than buying it in the small bottles. For carpenter ant

problems, check out the thread on page 1 of this forum.

***************************************

Dchall -

" Borax " and " Boric acid " are not the same.

Borax is Na2B4O7-10H2O, Hydrated sodium borate

Boric acid is H3BO3

As a source of boron, borax work fine. To kill roaches, you need the

boric acid.

The drugstore expensive stuff is pharmaceutical grade boric acid ...

no need to get that picky.

All from:

http://forums.gardenweb.com/forums/load/ipm/msg0622204413443.html

should be information out there saying that it is very toxic. Makes me wonder

who is putting this info out and why. According to my search today, it is about

as toxic as salt. Everything is bad if you take too much, but the sites which

say it is toxic look to me as if they are being shall we say over zealous, not

to say manipulated/manipulative. There seems to have been a hate campaign

against it at least since the company that was approached to make tablets on a

big scale (it had previously been small scale elsewhere) got the Gvt to forbid

it. People whose families work in US borax mines particularly commented how

safe it was to deal with.

R

But the laundry powder Twenty Mule Team Borax. Lick your index finger

and dip it into the powder.

C

[Guest guest]

I've read that borax is relatively non-toxic. You don't want small

babies or cats around the powder where they can ingest it. However,

that being said, Hulda recommends borax for cleaning and bathing

as it isn't loaded with sodium laural sulfate, etc...I've got her book

" The cure for all diseases " ... I'll fish it out and see what she says

about borax.

Lorie

>

> The talk about Borax toxicity sent me on a search because I too

believe it is not very toxic at all. Sharon M

> ______________________________

>

> boric acid v. 20 Mule Team borax

>

>

> a.. Tue, Aug 3, 04 at 23:02

>

> Yes, me again..

> her math is fine, but the toxicity (LD50) of boric acid is not

1g/kg as she says; it is really about 3g/kg (i.e., 3 times LESS TOXIC)

according to EXTOXNET (http://npic.orst.edu/factsheets/borictech.pdf),

and many other sources I have read. Therefore the kid she mentioned,

would have to drink about 30 oz. (nearly a quart) of the 5% ant bait

to you-know-what himself. Oh, by the way the LD50 of TABLE SALT is

also about 3g/kg. In other words, boric acid is just as toxic as table

salt. So, don't leave any table salt around kids like that! Here is a

list of toxicities that I posted on some other page. The numbers will

vary some depending on which lab determines them and what animals are

used in the test.

> I made the following list to show comparative toxicities of

some common products. I usually look at the toxicities of acute oral

exposure to rats, and these are expressed as " LD50's " or the Lethal

Median Dose of a product, expressed in milligrams (mg) of the product

to kilograms (kg) of weight to the exposed animal, so THE LOWER THE

NUMBER, THE MORE TOXIC THE SUBSTANCE, and higher numbers are less

toxic products. This number says how many milligrams of the product

per kilogram of body weight actually killed 50% of the animals (rats)

tested. (Sorry, I can't get the numbers to stay in columns.)

>

> TOXICITY OF SOME MATERIALS

>

> Material....and Acute Oral LD50 (rat) in mg/kg (see above)

>

>

> Nicotine 10 VERY TOXIC (but " organic " )

> Toxaphene 29

> Fipronil 95 (see Termidor below)

> inon® 100

> Gasoline 150

> Caffeine 200

> Sevin® 650

> Aspirin 1,200

> Malathion® 1,375

> TimBor® (DOT) 2,500

> Table Salt........ .....3,320...................

> Baking Soda 4,200

> Boric Acid 3,500

> d-Limonene (orange oil) 5,300

> Grain Alcohol 14,000

> Niban® 60,000+

> Termidor 0.06% spray 3,252,936 (= +-60 Gal/Kg for an adult)

>

> I put out this list in the interest of promoting a better

understanding of the products many people are discussing in these

pages and because some of the comments I have been reading are

sometimes very misleading. I don't mean to criticize anyone.just

sharing my thoughts.

>

> **********************************************

>

> FYI - I called the manufacturer of 20 Mule Team Borax and they

told me that it was 99.5% percent straight borax. So when I need to

use borax, that is what I use. It is cheaper than buying it in the

small bottles. For carpenter ant problems, check out the thread on

page 1 of this forum.

>

> ***************************************

>

> Dchall -

> " Borax " and " Boric acid " are not the same.

> Borax is Na2B4O7-10H2O, Hydrated sodium borate

>

> Boric acid is H3BO3

>

> As a source of boron, borax work fine. To kill roaches,

you need the boric acid.

>

> The drugstore expensive stuff is pharmaceutical grade

boric acid ... no need to get that picky.

>

>

>

> All from:

http://forums.gardenweb.com/forums/load/ipm/msg0622204413443.html

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

> should be information out there saying that it is very toxic. Makes

me wonder who is putting this info out and why. According to my

search today, it is about as toxic as salt. Everything is bad if you

take too much, but the sites which say it is toxic look to me as if

they are being shall we say over zealous, not to say

manipulated/manipulative. There seems to have been a hate campaign

against it at least since the company that was approached to make

tablets on a big scale (it had previously been small scale elsewhere)

got the Gvt to forbid it. People whose families work in US borax

mines particularly commented how safe it was to deal with.

> R

>

> But the laundry powder Twenty Mule Team Borax. Lick your index finger

> and dip it into the powder.

> C

>

[Guest guest]

Well, we used it a lot when I was a kid and never had an issue

with it, though I never actually ATE it. The poisonings seem to have

happened more in the old days, where it was absorbed through

broken skin, esp. when it was used for diaper rash. It was also

used as a food preservative, so probably people got a pretty

high dose.

5 grams can kill a child. That is less than a teaspoon.

I simply can't imagine a teaspoon of salt killing a child.

In fact, I know it doesn't, because I added a teaspoon of

salt to my kid's daily smoothie ration at one point.

I do like it as a cleaner, and to get rid of mold. I think though,

for a Neti pot, it's a safer bet to stick to stuff I know is pretty

harmless even if it is absorbed ... like oil of oregano and iodine

and salt.

OK, so here is the toxicity of borax:

Boric acid, sodium borate, and sodium perborate are estimated to have

a lethal dose (LD50) from 5 to 20 grams in humans[verification

needed][5]. The estimated lethal dose (ingested) for adults is 15-20

grams; less than 5 grams can kill a child or pet. These substances are

toxic to all cells, and have a slow excretion rate through the

kidneys. Kidney toxicity is the greatest, with liver fatty

degeneration, cerebral edema, and gastroenteritis. A reassessment of

boric acid/borax by the United States Environmental Protection Agency

Office of Pesticide Programs found potential developmental toxicity

(especially effects on the testes).[6] Boric acid solutions used as an

eye wash or on abraded skin are known to be especially toxic to

infants, especially after repeated use because of its slow elimination

rate.[7]

But what is the toxicity of salt?

According to the Paris correspondent of the Lancet for November 17

1888 MM DASTRE and LOVE in a note in the Archives de Physiologie state

that a considerable quantity of a physiological solution of salt may

be injected successively into the veins of an animal without causing

any apparent trouble immediate or consecutive This quantity has been

raised by the experimenters beyond two thirds of the weight of the

animal The expression toxic dose the authors remark has no meaning so

far as the salt solution is concerned There is no such thing as a

toxic dose but there is a toxic rapidity This rapidity is superior to

3 that is to say the quantity of the solution introduced does not

exceed three cubic centimetres per minute and per kilogramme of the

animal

Basically you can eat salt slowly all day long and be fine. As most of

us know from eating big bowls of popcorn or potato chips. OK, your

blood pressure might rise. You can die from drinking salt water if you

are dehydrated. Maybe. Humans handle lots of sodium chloride all the

time, and our bodies excrete it readily.

So to equate borax with salt is just not true. You can flush the body

with saline solution all day, and use it to rehydrate people in an IV.

Do that with borax and you will have a dead person.

There aren't a lot of issues with this currently because few people

use borax much these days except for cleaning. It was different 100

years ago. Keep in mind that also in the past they believed that

drinking mercury could be healthy, arsenic was used as a cure for

syphilis, Coke contained cocaine, and lead was used in makeup and to

sweeten wine. People have a very difficult time believing in

" toxicity " of something they like.

On Thu, May 15, 2008 at 11:11 AM, lbb116 <lorie_b@...> wrote:

> I've read that borax is relatively non-toxic. You don't want small

> babies or cats around the powder where they can ingest it. However,

> that being said, Hulda recommends borax for cleaning and bathing

> as it isn't loaded with sodium laural sulfate, etc...I've got her book

> " The cure for all diseases " ... I'll fish it out and see what she says

> about borax.

>

> Lorie

>