Guest guest Posted June 8, 2001 Report Share Posted June 8, 2001 In a message dated 06/08/2001 3:19:41 PM Central Daylight Time, 2moons@... writes: .. I have had my fill of sugar...and other's people share too. LOL I love that! I got off of sugar and felt incredibly good. However, I have fallen off the wagon and I've been like a vulture, trying to attack anything that has even the slightest amount of sugar in it. I mean I'm worse than I was BEFORE I got off it the first time! Today is my second day of my journey back into the land of no sugar, and I'm having to go through ALL that crap again......but darnit I sure wish I had licked a few more cake bowls before I decided to head down the straight and narrow once again! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 11, 2003 Report Share Posted February 11, 2003 Jen, Sally recommends this in the edition of NT I have and to my knowledge has not changed her opinion. Dr. Mercola used to recommend cooking whites but recently changed his mind. A Vonderplantz, forget how to spell his name, reccommends whole raw eggs. The whites do have a glycoprotein that binds avadin, however, there is an enormous amount of avadin in an egg yolk which most likely compensates for it, to the point that you are very unlikely to be deficient in biotin unless you have increased needs from being pregnant/nursing. I used to eat only yolks raw but have recently switched to whole raw eggs because, well first, egg whites cooked without yolks are kind of nasty (not bad if you add one yolk to numerous whites though), but more importantly, I've realized I feel enormously better if I eat whole raw eggs. Moreover, so many have been saying how much they turned their teeth around on all-raw diets or raw meat that I'm trying to consume as much of my protien raw as I can tolerate. Also, I've just started working out, and believe the raw protein will help me build muscle much more efficiently than cooked protein. Moreover, liver is loaded with biotin, the one source that has more biotin than egg whites. Eating liver once or twice a week should be good biotin insurance. I eat a pound a week generally, though when I find a source of kidneys, heart, and other organs I'll eat less, so I'm not too worried about it. I currently eat close to 2 dozen raw eggs a week. Next time I go to the doctor's I'll see if I can get a biotin test covered by my insurance and I'll let you all know how I'm doing. Chris In a message dated 2/11/03 5:54:05 PM Eastern Standard Time, je@... writes: > hi everyone! > I had a ? about raw eggs > .. someone just posted about putting raw eggs into their protein drinks > ... my ? is when you put the raw eggs into the protein drink or whatever > else.. do you first separate the whites?? > I've heard you should not eat the whites since they contain a glycoprotein > (avidin) that binds to biotin and can eventually lead to biotin deficiency > Pardon my ignorance.. > still new to all this > ____ " What can one say of a soul, of a heart, filled with compassion? It is a heart which burns with love for every creature: for human beings, birds, and animals, for serpents and for demons. The thought of them and the sight of them make the tears of the saint flow. And this immense and intense compassion, which flows from the heart of the saints, makes them unable to bear the sight of the smallest, most insignificant wound in any creature. Thus they pray ceaselessly, with tears, even for animals, for enemies of the truth, and for those who do them wrong. " --Saint Isaac the Syrian Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 4, 2003 Report Share Posted March 4, 2003 >>>>>>>>>>> I used to eat only yolks raw but have recently switched to whole raw eggs because, well first, egg whites cooked without yolks are kind of nasty (not bad if you add one > yolk to numerous whites though), but more importantly, I've realized I feel enormously better if I eat whole raw eggs. Moreover, so many have been saying how much they turned their teeth around on all-raw diets or raw meat that I'm trying to consume as much of my protien raw as I can tolerate. Also, I've just started working out, and believe the raw protein will help me build muscle much more efficiently than cooked protein. [...] > Chris >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Hi I'm wondering what basis you have for this belief about raw protein. I've seen anectodal evidence about raw protein and suspiciously vague theoretical claims, but I'd love to be convinced there is a real advantage. Given my lack of knowledge and general considerations of nutrient preservation, just to play it on the safe side I currently consume all my animal protein raw (beef, octopus, oyster, kefir, egg yolks), but I don't have any particular convictions about it. I've recently started discarding my egg whites because I'm already getting more than enough protein from elsewhere and when I looked at the USDA data I couldn't see any nutritional benefit. Beyond my general question for you above, I was surprised that you would have this view of protein utilization from raw egg whites since NT lists the presence of trypsin inhibitors as a disadvantage to raw whites alongside the biotin thing, the latter of which I understand is not necessarily a decisive consideration. It puzzles me that I don't see the trypsin inhibitors discussed in the endless exchanges about biotin. I would love to find more concrete data about antinutrients in general, especially in terms of the quantitative relationship between length of time applying some process like soaking, sprouting, fermenting, heating, etc, and the neutralization of a given antinutrient. I suspect this is a very fuzzy issue that's often treated as a binary good/bad issue. Mike Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 4, 2003 Report Share Posted March 4, 2003 Mike, Sorry, but I don't have enough to back up my speculation. I've just read that raw protein is often more usable (probably depends on the protein). I totally forgot about trypsin inhibitors. What is trypsin anyway? I got so much into the biotin discussion forgot all about it. I do feel better eating raw egg whites than cooked, however. Don't know if I'll run into long-term problems. Chris In a message dated 3/4/03 12:09:04 PM Eastern Standard Time, bwp@... writes: > HI > I'm wondering what basis you have for this belief about raw protein. > I've seen anectodal evidence about raw protein and suspiciously vague > theoretical claims, but I'd love to be convinced there is a real > advantage. Given my lack of knowledge and general considerations of > nutrient preservation, just to play it on the safe side I currently > consume all my animal protein raw (beef, octopus, oyster, kefir, egg > yolks), but I don't have any particular convictions about it. I've > recently started discarding my egg whites because I'm already getting > more than enough protein from elsewhere and when I looked at the USDA > data I couldn't see any nutritional benefit. Beyond my general > question for you above, I was surprised that you would have this view > of protein utilization from raw egg whites since NT lists the > presence of trypsin inhibitors as a disadvantage to raw whites > alongside the biotin thing, the latter of which I understand is not > necessarily a decisive consideration. It puzzles me that I don't see > the trypsin inhibitors discussed in the endless exchanges about > biotin. I would love to find more concrete data about antinutrients > in general, especially in terms of the quantitative relationship > between length of time applying some process like soaking, sprouting, > fermenting, heating, etc, and the neutralization of a given > antinutrient. I suspect this is a very fuzzy issue that's often > treated as a binary good/bad issue. ____ " What can one say of a soul, of a heart, filled with compassion? It is a heart which burns with love for every creature: for human beings, birds, and animals, for serpents and for demons. The thought of them and the sight of them make the tears of the saint flow. And this immense and intense compassion, which flows from the heart of the saints, makes them unable to bear the sight of the smallest, most insignificant wound in any creature. Thus they pray ceaselessly, with tears, even for animals, for enemies of the truth, and for those who do them wrong. " --Saint Isaac the Syrian Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 4, 2003 Report Share Posted March 4, 2003 hi Mike! I too have asked these same questions ~from my understanding... the whites do have a glycoprotein that binds avadin thus creating biotin deficiency some still eat them raw because they say the yolk overcompensates jen ----- Original Message ----- From: <bwp@...> < > Sent: Tuesday, March 04, 2003 9:06 AM Subject: Re: raw eggs? > >>>>>>>>>>> > I used to eat only > yolks raw but have recently switched to whole raw eggs because, well > first, egg whites cooked without yolks are kind of nasty (not bad if > you add one > yolk to numerous whites though), but more importantly, > I've realized I feel enormously better if I eat whole raw eggs. > Moreover, so many have been saying how much they turned their teeth > around on all-raw diets or raw meat that I'm trying to consume as > much of my protien raw as I can tolerate. Also, I've just started > working out, and believe the raw protein will help me > build muscle much more efficiently than cooked protein. > [...] > > Chris > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> > > Hi > I'm wondering what basis you have for this belief about raw protein. > I've seen anectodal evidence about raw protein and suspiciously vague > theoretical claims, but I'd love to be convinced there is a real > advantage. Given my lack of knowledge and general considerations of > nutrient preservation, just to play it on the safe side I currently > consume all my animal protein raw (beef, octopus, oyster, kefir, egg > yolks), but I don't have any particular convictions about it. I've > recently started discarding my egg whites because I'm already getting > more than enough protein from elsewhere and when I looked at the USDA > data I couldn't see any nutritional benefit. Beyond my general > question for you above, I was surprised that you would have this view > of protein utilization from raw egg whites since NT lists the > presence of trypsin inhibitors as a disadvantage to raw whites > alongside the biotin thing, the latter of which I understand is not > necessarily a decisive consideration. It puzzles me that I don't see > the trypsin inhibitors discussed in the endless exchanges about > biotin. I would love to find more concrete data about antinutrients > in general, especially in terms of the quantitative relationship > between length of time applying some process like soaking, sprouting, > fermenting, heating, etc, and the neutralization of a given > antinutrient. I suspect this is a very fuzzy issue that's often > treated as a binary good/bad issue. > > Mike > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 5, 2003 Report Share Posted March 5, 2003 > Sorry, but I don't have enough to back up my speculation. I've just read > that raw protein is often more usable (probably depends on the protein). I > totally forgot about trypsin inhibitors. What is trypsin anyway? I got so > much into the biotin discussion forgot all about it. I do feel better eating > raw egg whites than cooked, however. Don't know if I'll run into long-term > problems. > > Chris I don't have any biochem background, so I'm pretty clueless about trypsin. I wanted to mention that I'm aware of people who eat very large quantities of raw eggs (even including the shell) everyday. A while ago I came across a fascinating website (<rawpaleodiet.org>) published by an individual who has a distinctive diet including lots of raw eggs and meat. If I recall correctly from looking throught the site a few months back, he makes smoothies with several whole eggs (shell,white,yolk) in one shot. I love things that make me question my basic premises and assumptions. (nutrient-dense food for thought!) I hadn't really been exposed to these concepts before and I haven't really looked into them too much yet, but it's fascinating to learn about things that might seem extreme at first but are practiced successfully by sensible and intelligent people. I've tried to find some kind of balance between plant and animal, raw and cooked, etc. It's on my list of things to do (probably later than sooner) to read more about that raw paleo stuff, but in the meantime I'm just keeping my eyes open for clues to all these puzzles. By the way, while I'm referring to the above email I might as well dip into a possibly sticky topic that has continually been on my mind since I recently starting actively reading posts on these email lists. Quite bluntly, I'm mystified by statements like " I feel good [bad] eating x " . I get the feeling that most of us do a lot of experimenting with our physical lifestyle (food, exercise, supplementation, etc), so I wonder how a person can link their overall state with specific foods when there could be many variables affecting them at any given time. People seem to make lots of changes at once, so I'm surprised at how often I see confident statements about the effects of individual foods. Personally, I've never seen much connection between how I feel and the specific foods I eat, despite some pretty intense and varied food experimentation in the past year or so since becoming health-conscious. I always felt good when I ate SAD and I've always felt good in my various aggressive attempts at optimal nutrition. The only change I can see is that I now have a purely theoretical belief that it's more likely I'm preventing health problems in the distant future. The only real link I've seen involves quantity, the clear-cut effects of undereating or overeating on energy, mood, etc. I can understand how someone might detect an allergy or sensitivity to specific foods, but how can someone assign blame or praise to specific foods in other cases? I'm thinking especially of when a person is trying five different ways of improving some negative condition--if the condition improves, how can you know which thing, or combination of things, was responsible, and what if it was a delayed effect of some older strategy? Just thinking out-loud... Mike Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 5, 2003 Report Share Posted March 5, 2003 I just chatted with a retired chiropractor this morning, who was a specialist in allergies. And he recommended rotating foods. In other words eating something different each day: not eating the same thing two days in a row. Keep a diary and if everytime you eat a particular thing you feel worse, consistently, you can conclude it is not working for you. And how you feel after eating is, in fact, a good way to determine if something is benefitting you. There are variables. Like what did you eat the day before, that might be lingering and adding to the negative results. It takes time and often people on the net have been at this for years and have, overtime, figured out what is working for them and what is not. And it is a valid way of going about it. Animals do it this way. If something makes them sick they don't eat it again. Blessings Donna ----- Original Message ----- From: Evely Sent: Wednesday, March 05, 2003 6:29 AM Subject: Re: Re: raw eggs? >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> By the way, while I'm referring to the above email I might as well dip into a possibly sticky topic that has continually been on my mind since I recently starting actively reading posts on these email lists. Quite bluntly, I'm mystified by statements like " I feel good [bad] eating x " . I get the feeling that most of us do a lot of experimenting with our physical lifestyle (food, exercise, supplementation, etc), so I wonder how a person can link their overall state with specific foods when there could be many variables affecting them at any given time. People seem to make lots of changes at once, so I'm surprised at how often I see confident statements about the effects of individual foods. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> hi Mike! I agree with you here.... from experience I have learned that in reading some posts they are not scientific or backed up in any way~ but rather anecdotal/testimonial whatever ...It's hard with alot of this stuff (like with the egg question for example) because you can't compare SUBJECTIVITY unless you're a psychologist ~Everyone has an opinion these days... how can you compare everyone's opinion when everyone has a different opinion?? jen " And we have made of ourselves living cesspools, and driven doctors to invent names for our diseases. " Plato Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 5, 2003 Report Share Posted March 5, 2003 Can you share your egg nog recipe? Thanks Donna p.s. I have eaten eggs everyday of my life that I can remember. I am 52. I have no cellulite. My friend rarely eats eggs and has alot of cellulite. A double, not blind study. Chuckle. ----- Original Message ----- From: Judith Alta Sent: Wednesday, March 05, 2003 11:39 AM Subject: RE: Re: raw eggs? I've eaten whole raw eggs in homemade eggnog for years. Judith Alta -----Original Message----- hi Mike! I too have asked these same questions ~from my understanding... the whites do have a glycoprotein that binds avadin thus creating biotin deficiency some still eat them raw because they say the yolk overcompensates jen Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 5, 2003 Report Share Posted March 5, 2003 >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> By the way, while I'm referring to the above email I might as well dip into a possibly sticky topic that has continually been on my mind since I recently starting actively reading posts on these email lists. Quite bluntly, I'm mystified by statements like " I feel good [bad] eating x " . I get the feeling that most of us do a lot of experimenting with our physical lifestyle (food, exercise, supplementation, etc), so I wonder how a person can link their overall state with specific foods when there could be many variables affecting them at any given time. People seem to make lots of changes at once, so I'm surprised at how often I see confident statements about the effects of individual foods. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> hi Mike! I agree with you here.... from experience I have learned that in reading some posts they are not scientific or backed up in any way~ but rather anecdotal/testimonial whatever ....It's hard with alot of this stuff (like with the egg question for example) because you can't compare SUBJECTIVITY unless you're a psychologist ~Everyone has an opinion these days... how can you compare everyone's opinion when everyone has a different opinion?? jen " And we have made of ourselves living cesspools, and driven doctors to invent names for our diseases. " Plato Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 5, 2003 Report Share Posted March 5, 2003 >I'm mystified by statements like " I feel good >[bad] eating x " . I get the feeling that most of us do a lot of >experimenting with our physical lifestyle (food, exercise, >supplementation, etc), so I wonder how a person can link their >overall state with specific foods when there could be many variables >affecting them at any given time. I had (and have) the same problem. I deal with it by trying to change one variable at a time. And by keeping a detailed food log on the computer. You can buy food log programs -- I'm a programmer so I had to write my own -- but basically write down the food, then how you feel. Most of my food reactions really show up 24 hours later. I also track carb/fat/protein content. I've been making changes slowly over the last year. When I dropped gluten products, for instance, I replaced all the wheat starch with with rice or potatoes, so there was only one variable. Now I'm experimenting with carb levels, as a separate variable. But only changing one thing at a time. It is still hard to say exactly WHAT is helping, since some of the changes take months to really kick in. But it does help to avoid the things that make me feel BAD. Heidi S Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 5, 2003 Report Share Posted March 5, 2003 Mike- >I always felt >good when I ate SAD and I've always felt good in my various >aggressive attempts at optimal nutrition. The only change I can see >is that I now have a purely theoretical belief that it's more likely >I'm preventing health problems in the distant future. The only real >link I've seen involves quantity, the clear-cut effects of >undereating or overeating on energy, mood, etc. I can understand how >someone might detect an allergy or sensitivity to specific foods, but >how can someone assign blame or praise to specific foods in other >cases? Part of the answer is that it's hard to tell, and part of the answer is that you're a lucky bastard. <g> Not all of us felt so well eating SAD, and when you're very sick, it's a lot easier to tell how different foods affect your energy levels, general well-being and specific symptoms. Not to say it's easy even then, but probably the sicker you are, the easier it is. Another way to verify that a change has a definite effect is to undo the change and see what happens, and then redo it and then see what happens, and so on and so forth. That's how I've discovered without a doubt that raw liver (raw bison liver, anyway; I haven't experimented with other livers yet) is of enormous benefit to me: every time I stop I feel worse, every time I start I feel better, without fail. I wish a lot more people were like you, though, willing to take the plunge even though they feel fine now just because they believe it'll save them future illness. I know all too many sick people who aren't willing to make changes. - Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 5, 2003 Report Share Posted March 5, 2003 In a message dated 3/5/03 3:42:01 AM Eastern Standard Time, bwp@... writes: > By the way, while I'm referring to the above email I might as well > dip into a possibly sticky topic that has continually been on my mind > since I recently starting actively reading posts on these email > lists. Quite bluntly, I'm mystified by statements like " I feel good > [bad] eating x " . I get the feeling that most of us do a lot of > experimenting with our physical lifestyle (food, exercise, > supplementation, etc), so I wonder how a person can link their > overall state with specific foods when there could be many variables > affecting them at any given time I eat three dozen eggs a week. While there are many variables that contribute to stamina, overall health, energy, etc, etc... I have very poor digestion, and from meal to meal I can judge it, and I do believe that, having eaten many many eggs over the last six months, many of them cooked, many of them raw yolks, many of them raw whole, that I digest the raw whole best, and that, I have more energy in the hours following a meal the more raw is in it, and that raw whole eggs allow me to cook sidedishes, but beyond, raw animal products I find better than raw plant, and raw meat better than raw eggs, etc. I'll move on to raw liver in a few weeks ;-) I must confess, however, that I do in large part eat raw eggs for convenience. It takes me less than a minute to " prepare " and about one minute to consume. Versus cooking scrambled eggs for at least five minutes and eating them for five minutes. Chris ____ " What can one say of a soul, of a heart, filled with compassion? It is a heart which burns with love for every creature: for human beings, birds, and animals, for serpents and for demons. The thought of them and the sight of them make the tears of the saint flow. And this immense and intense compassion, which flows from the heart of the saints, makes them unable to bear the sight of the smallest, most insignificant wound in any creature. Thus they pray ceaselessly, with tears, even for animals, for enemies of the truth, and for those who do them wrong. " --Saint Isaac the Syrian Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 5, 2003 Report Share Posted March 5, 2003 Mercola has changed his stance on raw egg whites. He says it's okay to eat them because the yolk compensates for the avadin binding. I've eaten whole raw eggs in homemade eggnog for years. Two years ago our grown son came to stay with us for a while and we really went on an egg binge. Three of us, my son, my hubby and I, put away 15 dozen eggs in three weeks (with my son and I eating about 75% of them) for about six months. Before I started the binge my thighs were rough and bumpy, but today they are as smooth and free of lumps as can be. I can only attribute it to the eggs as increasing them is the only way we changed our diet. Enjoy! ;-) Judith Alta -----Original Message----- hi Mike! I too have asked these same questions ~from my understanding... the whites do have a glycoprotein that binds avadin thus creating biotin deficiency some still eat them raw because they say the yolk overcompensates jen Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 5, 2003 Report Share Posted March 5, 2003 Mike wondered: >I can understand how someone might detect an allergy or sensitivity to specific >foods, but how can someone assign blame or praise to specific foods in other >cases? I'm thinking especially of when a person is trying five >different ways of improving some negative condition--if the condition >improves, how can you know which thing, or combination of things, was >responsible, and what if it was a delayed effect of some older >strategy? For me it comes down to experience. If, over time, I realize that everytime I eat X, Y happens, it doesn't take rocket science to figure out that X is the culprit. Once you start to notice these things, you start to wonder if other things that happen to you could be fixed or altered by making other changes in the diet. If you do an elimination diet for a length of time, take note of what effects you, how you feel, etc, then start to add foods back in, you're very likely to find foods that trigger some things you don't like. For example, I love sweet potatoes and parsnips, and I hadn't eaten them in a couple of years until last month. I happily baked and fried, then chowed down. The result? Within an hour I was sleepy, could barely form coherent thought (thankfully my hubby had just bought Unreal 2, so I just sat and watched him play it for a few hours), and within four hours fell into a funk that lasted a good 30 hours. Now, I'm a depressive, have been since I was 14 years old, and let me tell ya, when you eat something that makes you feel like you want to go to bed and not ever get up again, it's Not A Good Thing. I'm very aware of my cycles, and as I'm not on meds, find that the one thing that has almost an immediate affect on my mood is food. So, it's relatively simple for me to figure out what's doing what. Does that kind of answer your questions? Dryad -- http://www.puritycontrol.co.uk - XF rec's at The Grove, updated 2/1/03 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 5, 2003 Report Share Posted March 5, 2003 ----- Original Message ----- From: " michaelantonparker " <bwp@...> <much snippage> > By the way, while I'm referring to the above email I might as well > dip into a possibly sticky topic that has continually been on my mind > since I recently starting actively reading posts on these email > lists. Quite bluntly, I'm mystified by statements like " I feel good > [bad] eating x " . I get the feeling that most of us do a lot of > experimenting with our physical lifestyle (food, exercise, > supplementation, etc), so I wonder how a person can link their > overall state with specific foods when there could be many variables > affecting them at any given time. > > Mike Hi Mike While I can only address this for my family (me hubby) I don't really think it is mystifying at all. We have recently given up gluten on suspicions that we are intolerant. No doctors advice, but the guessing of a celiac friend. Both of us were almost symptom free in only 2 weeks (chronic stuffy heads, sleep apnia, heartburn, ovary pain, sleepy after eating, muscle soreness, fatigue etc.) We ate out 1 time at an Indian vegetarian rest. thinking just aviod the rice and bread. I had horrible ovary pain for 3 days after. Hubby had indgestion very bad like old times. Tried popcorn as a snack, bad reactions. Tried rice, bad reactions. One by one all of the symptoms that we used to accept as " normal " returned and usually with a vengance. Now we really know what normal is and it is great! For us one of the greatest things in life has been to learn to listen to our bodys needs and give it what it is asking for or more importantly aviod what it is telling you it doesn't want. Someone mentioned only one variable at a time, sounds like a winner to me. Take Care, Adrienne Goergia Naturals Farm one can not always be magnificent, but simplicity is always a possible alternative Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 5, 2003 Report Share Posted March 5, 2003 At 02:39 PM 3/5/03 -0500, you wrote: >Before I started the binge my thighs were rough and bumpy, but today they >are as smooth and free of lumps as can be. I can only attribute it to the >eggs as increasing them is the only way we changed our diet. > >Judith Alta Interesting. As a teen my upper legs and upper arms had what seemed to be almost ingrown hairs. This coincided with buying store bought milk and eggs which we'd been able to get from neighbors till the egg man retired and the raw milk wasn't legal anymore. Didn't seem to be an acne type rash. When I cut down on both for quite a few years it went away. Wanita Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 5, 2003 Report Share Posted March 5, 2003 Adrienne- >Tried rice, bad >reactions. Isn't rice gluten-free? Sounds to me like it's starch that's your bane, which is more in line with Elaine Gottschall's SCD theory than with the gluten hypothesis. - Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 5, 2003 Report Share Posted March 5, 2003 > ----- Original Message ----- > From: " michaelantonparker " <bwp@u...> > <much snippage> > By the way, while I'm referring to the above email I might as well > dip into a possibly sticky topic that has continually been on my mind > since I recently starting actively reading posts on these email > lists. Quite bluntly, I'm mystified by statements like " I feel good > [bad] eating x " . I get the feeling that most of us do a lot of > experimenting with our physical lifestyle (food, exercise, > supplementation, etc), so I wonder how a person can link their > overall state with specific foods when there could be many variables > affecting them at any given time. > Mike Hi Mike, I think this was a very reasonable topic to broach. A few years ago I would have tended to roll my eyes at people who made such statements. I've had CFS for almost 10 years. Several years ago, I went off sugar for 3 months and noticed absolutely no changes. I also went off dairy for one month and noticed nothing. Then I decided to try macrobiotics. My macrobiotic counselor told me I'd soon be able to tell how individual foods affected me. I was suspicious. I ate 98% strictly macrobiotically for 1 1/2 years. The best thing it did for me was get me off of ALL processed foods and sugar. So, even though I now don't think macrobiotics is a healthy diet, it was a very " pure " diet. After being on macro for 2 months, I could definitely begin to tell how certain foods affected me. When I tried dairy again after months off, I had strong negative reactions (pimples, brain fog, gas). The 1 1/2 years on macro I was pimple free. Took out dairy, pimples went away. But remember, a few years earlier, I'd gone off of dairy for one month and didn't notice any changes. For me, it made a huge difference to be on a very strict, pure diet -- and then insert foods back into my diet to see the effect. Same with sugar. While on SAD, I omitted sugar for 3 months and saw no changes. After 6 months on macro, I had a bit of sugar and *immediately* didn't feel well. That blew my mind -- I truly didn't believe that would or *could* happen. A lot of it is trial and error, though, because there are sooo many variables (not just food variables, but life, stress, seasons, etc). I get a suspicion about a certain food and then I play with it for awhile -- taking it out, putting it back in, taking it out again, etc... Here's an interesting thing (to me, that is!). Dairy causes pimples for me. Recently I began eating raw eggs. Not too long after I started getting pimples. I couldn't be certain it was the eggs because although 95% of the time I eat a strict diet, I do go out, too, and don't always know ingredients. After playing around w/eggs and no eggs, it seems (sadly) that yes eggs do cause pimples. BUT, the interesting thing is that the pimples are of a completely different type than the dairy pimples! It's wild. The egg pimples come and go quickly. The dairy ones are red and sore and take a long time to go away. A healthy person is probably not going to have the time or inclination to pay such close attention to their body! Sometimes I tell myself, " I have waaaay too much time on my hands " that I notice all of these things. But the fact is that I'm sick and I do have a lot of time and I want to get better, so I observe and observe and observe. It's amazing what one's body can tell one! Here's another fascinating thing. When I went macro, the counselor told me to stop wearing deodarant because I'd no longer need it. He was right. (Of course, I have a sedate life.) A friend mentioned to me that he'd read that when we are anxious, our sweat actually smells much worse than normal. Sure enough, when I'm anxious, I almost immediately notice strong body odor! Of course, when I used to wear deodorant daily, I would never have noticed this. Also, I notice when I eat out (and thus not an organic, pure diet), the next day I'll have body odor. It lasts a day. When I stick to my " pure " diet, I have no body odor. And I just shower every other day. That's a bit of my experience learning how different foods affect me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 5, 2003 Report Share Posted March 5, 2003 ----- Original Message ----- From: " michaelantonparker " <bwp@u...> <much snippage> By the way, while I'm referring to the above email I might as well dip into a possibly sticky topic that has continually been on my mind since I recently starting actively reading posts on these email lists. Quite bluntly, I'm mystified by statements like " I feel good [bad] eating x " . I get the feeling that most of us do a lot of experimenting with our physical lifestyle (food, exercise, supplementation, etc), so I wonder how a person can link their overall state with specific foods when there could be many variables affecting them at any given time. Mike > If you want to know how your body reacts to the things you consume, I would think you need to start by eating a good diet. After a having the same reaction time and time again after you eat a certain thing, I'll bet you would catch on to what your body is trying to tell you. I used to think the same way you do. Now, I can pick up on the slightest thing. Getting off of ALL forms of sugar was probably the single best thing I ever did for myself. I can feel pain in my knees and jaw immediately after consumption. Interestingly, I've recently tried Rapadura and I didn't get that reaction. I try and pay close attention so I know what does and doesn't work best for me. This has been key in overcoming Fibro and CFS. My husband doesn't have a clue how things affect his body, but as the person that is by his side on a regular basis, I can tell you how certain foods affect his body. Give it time, you'll start to pick up on things. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 5, 2003 Report Share Posted March 5, 2003 >Isn't rice gluten-free? Sounds to me like it's starch that's your bane, >which is more in line with Elaine Gottschall's SCD theory than with the >gluten hypothesis. It's not always straightforward. In Dangerous Grains (and on Dogtor's website) there is the thought that all grain proteins can be an issue. Some people react to the gliadin in wheat (maybe most people do), but people also react to the glutinin. Glutinin is also found in rice. Also, once one is sensitized to the protein, TINY -- I mean homeopathic level tiny -- amounts of the protein can cause reactions. And you can also react to *similar* proteins, not just the wheat protein. The main difference between this and Gottschall's hypothesis is that the starch issue is purely based on dosage. That is, a tiny bit of starch is not an issue. But when the problem is an immune response, then tiny amounts (such as going to an Indian restaurant and NOT eating the rice or bread, but the food likely has bits of bread or rice protein in it), can make you quite ill. Also, it is very common for people who are gluten sensitive to also develop side-reactions to other foods, due to leaky gut probably. Those often go away after awhile, though the gluten sensitivity does not go away (again, this is in contrast with Gottschall, who believes the problem is purely microbial). For myself, I have to say that most grain-type foods seem to be a bit problematic. Rice is MUCH less reactive than wheat, but basically I feel better with neither. And large amounts of *any* starch make me feel less than optimal -- but not nauseated and sick like gluten does. Soaking and sprouting make the insulin reactions a lot less of a problem, but they don't help much if you have an immune system response. So you have 3 issues: 1. Immune system response 2. Insulin reaction 3. Microbes (yeast, bacteria) All are real issues. Which ones affect you is for you to discover! > Heidi S Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 6, 2003 Report Share Posted March 6, 2003 I have noticed the same thing as well. Raw eggs give me an energy boost while fried, scrambled or other forms tend to drag me down. In fact, I won't even eat scrambled eggs as they make me almost nauseous. danny Creek Bend Dairy Farm Harry & Peggy Strite 11917 Snug Harbor Lane port, MD 21795 301-582-4135 cbdfarm@... that I digest the raw whole best, and that, I have more energy in the hours following a meal the more raw is in it, and that raw whole eggs allow me to cook sidedishes, but beyond, raw animal products I find better than raw plant, and raw meat better than raw eggs, etc. I'll move on to raw liver in a few weeks ;-) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 6, 2003 Report Share Posted March 6, 2003 Heidi- >It's not always straightforward. In Dangerous Grains (and on Dogtor's >website) there is the thought that all grain proteins can be >an issue. There's an important psychological issue at work here: the gluten (and general grain protein) theory has had a relatively easy time catching on with mainstream types because everybody is already predisposed to believe ill of protein, but few people are (yet) willing to admit that carbs themselves might be a problem. This isn't to say that these proteins aren't a problem, but you seem unwilling to even consider that most starches might not be healthy. >The main difference between this and Gottschall's hypothesis is >that the starch issue is purely based on dosage. That is, a tiny >bit of starch is not an issue. In fact she says the opposite: the sicker you are, the more effect even a tiny little bit of starch will have on you, which is why it's so important to be absolutely rigorous when following her diet. >Those often go away after awhile, though the >gluten sensitivity does not go away (again, this is in contrast >with Gottschall, who believes the problem is purely microbial). Not purely microbial -- the intestines themselves sustain a lot of damage and have to be healed. >1. Immune system response >2. Insulin reaction >3. Microbes (yeast, bacteria) But they're not separate. Bowel dysbiosis and organism overgrowth damage the intestinal walls, in turn both impairing digestion and allowing undigested and incompletely-digested proteins to pass through and create immune problems. Once your immune system has been sensitized to certain proteins that immune memory will always be there, but look at the way all sorts of food allergies disappear once the diet is changed to eliminate sugars, starches, refined foods, additives, and so on, and to emphasize good meats and fats. People who were formerly allergic to beef can once again eat beef, and the same is true for other protein foods. - Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 6, 2003 Report Share Posted March 6, 2003 Heidi- I'd also like to add that the gluten theory is dosage dependent too, in that the hypothesis is that we've gotten into more and more trouble as we've bred our grains to have more and more gluten (and other grain proteins; I know, I should be more precise in my language). But there's a huge and very important hole in that theory. While it's true that we've bred some of our grains to have much more protein, there's another recent change in our practices which has enormous consequences: the abandonment of proper preparation, e.g. soaking in a slightly acid medium to neutralize anti-nutrients and partially pre-digest the starch. >The main difference between this and Gottschall's hypothesis is >that the starch issue is purely based on dosage. That is, a tiny >bit of starch is not an issue. But when the problem is an immune >response, then tiny amounts (such as going to an Indian restaurant >and NOT eating the rice or bread, but the food likely has bits >of bread or rice protein in it), can make you quite ill. - Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 6, 2003 Report Share Posted March 6, 2003 ----- Original Message ----- From: " Idol " <Idol@...> <major smippage> >Once your immune system has been sensitized to certain > proteins that immune memory will always be there, but look at the way all > sorts of food allergies disappear once the diet is changed to eliminate > sugars, starches, refined foods, additives, and so on, and to emphasize > good meats and fats. People who were formerly allergic to beef can once > again eat beef, and the same is true for other protein foods. > - Whew, clearly I am behind the 8 ball as far as understanding much of this. I have lived on a farm for the past 10 years. Most all of the food we eat is produced by us. We have eaten practically zero processed foods and do not consume much in the way of sugar. No refined, little honey and no too much fruit. As far as starches goes I don't use much but have noticed no ill effects. (dunno what that might be if going off then back on though) Potatoes have not been a problem (I don't think). Eating rice again after not having it gave mild stuffy head, sure I could live with that at times but why bother. I don't really see how I could eat too much better (maybe more fermented) and I would love to think that I could tolerate grains again ( we just finished building a wood fired bread oven in Oct.) I was making some really great sourdough, but frankly even trying on purpose to eat gluten frightens me after accidentally ingesting some. We were under the impression that we were eating good therefore were healthy. We have increased the quality of our lives a million times over by just eliminating gluten, we never saw just in how bad of shape we were until we got well. This has been a great thread (thanks for he info Heidi) and I am so happy to have found the list (thanks Judy) What an absolute wealth of info there is to be had. And I are stoopid. What is PUFA? you mentioned it in the pemmican note I just didn't ask then. Take Care, Adrienne Georgia Naturals Farm one can not always be magnificent, but simplicity is always a possible alternative Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 6, 2003 Report Share Posted March 6, 2003 Adrienne- >What is PUFA? >you mentioned it in the pemmican note I just didn't ask then. Oh, it's just an acronym for Poly-Unsaturated Fatty Acids -- IOW fish and vegetable oils. >and I would love to think that I could tolerate grains again Whether you accept the gluten hypothesis or Elaine Gottschall's theory, grains are basically a no-no. If you were to heal completely so you could tolerate them again it would only be short-term. - Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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