Re: Normal body temperature.98.2

[Guest guest]

Thanks for the info Lynn,

From: Lynn McGaha <lmcgaha@...>Subject: Normal body temperature.98.2iodine Date: Monday, June 2, 2008, 5:51 PM

There is often reference made on this board and elsewhere, including Dr. Rind's website, to 98.6 being the optimal oral body temperature. 37 degree C (37.0 C = 98.6 F) average temperature was established in 1861 by German physician Carl Wunderlich. He took the first systematic measurements of human body temperature, measuring one million temperatures from 250,000 healthy individuals. I read that the 37 C was based on underarm readings.

Normal body temperature is actually a range of temperatures, now accepted to be from 97.6 to 98.8, depending on time of day, age, and sex. Temperatures are higher in the afternoon than in the morning and temperatures decline with age. Recent research has established 98.2 as average normal body temperature. See http://hypertextboo k.com/facts/ LenaWong. shtml.

When I read the temperature research done in the last decade or two, I wondered if people with unrecognized thyroid problems or lowered metabolism from modern-day chemicals such as fluoride were included in the so-called healthy sample used to establish normal baselines, driving the average temperature down. However, it appears that the original research in 1861 was done with a thermometer that was calibrated too high.

http://findarticles .com/p/articles/ mi_m1511/ is_n1_v14/ ai_13652010

Why the slight difference between the two sets of numbers? When Mackowiak tested an alleged Wunderlich thermometer, borrowed from a medical museum, he found that it was calibrated too high--which might explain the German doctor's higher numbers.

Another issue is that Wunderlich averaged the normal temperature to 37 C, which converts to 98.6 F. Wunderlich's value has only two significant figures while the converted value has three. The last digit (the "point six" at the end) should be regarded with great suspicion. Wunderlich's converted value should really be stated as "ninety eight point something" if one is being honest.

In one of the modern research studies only 8% of the subjects had an oral body temperature of 98.6. While there is no one ideal body temperature, 98.2 F seems to have more scientific basis than 98.6 F.

If you want to research this yourself, do a search on "normal body temperature" .

Lynn

[Guest guest]

That is very intersting Lynn. I take temps at work all day long and

was wondering why everyone's temp is so low. All these pt.'s are sick

or have an operation but WOW! I find most of them have a temp of 97.

something. Very few are above 98.3. MANY older people have very low

temps in the 95's! Thanks for the this information.

Janie

>

> There is often reference made on this board and elsewhere,

including Dr. Rind's website, to 98.6 being the optimal oral body

temperature. 37 degree C (37.0 C = 98.6 F) average temperature was

established in 1861 by German physician Carl Wunderlich. He took the

first systematic measurements of human body temperature, measuring

one million temperatures from 250,000 healthy individuals. I read

that the 37 C was based on underarm readings.

>

> Normal body temperature is actually a range of temperatures, now

accepted to be from 97.6 to 98.8, depending on time of day, age, and

sex. Temperatures are higher in the afternoon than in the morning

and temperatures decline with age. Recent research has established

98.2 as average normal body temperature. See

http://hypertextbook.com/facts/LenaWong.shtml.

>

> When I read the temperature research done in the last decade or

two, I wondered if people with unrecognized thyroid problems or

lowered metabolism from modern-day chemicals such as fluoride were

included in the so-called healthy sample used to establish normal

baselines, driving the average temperature down. However, it appears

that the original research in 1861 was done with a thermometer that

was calibrated too high.

>

> http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m1511/is_n1_v14/ai_13652010

> Why the slight difference between the two sets of numbers? When

Mackowiak tested an alleged Wunderlich thermometer, borrowed from a

medical museum, he found that it was calibrated too high--which might

explain the German doctor's higher numbers.

>

> Another issue is that Wunderlich averaged the normal temperature to

37 C, which converts to 98.6 F. Wunderlich's value has only two

significant figures while the converted value has three. The last

digit (the " point six " at the end) should be regarded with great

suspicion. Wunderlich's converted value should really be stated

as " ninety eight point something " if one is being honest.

>

> In one of the modern research studies only 8% of the subjects had

an oral body temperature of 98.6. While there is no one ideal body

temperature, 98.2 F seems to have more scientific basis than 98.6 F.

>

> If you want to research this yourself, do a search on " normal body

temperature " .

>

> Lynn

>

[Guest guest]

I think it would be interesting to research the average body temperature of

people who had optimal thyroid test values (FT3 & FT4 in upper 1/3 of range,

no antibodies) and sufficient iodine.

I take 2.5 of dessicated thyroid daily. I took kelp for 5 years and then 50

mg. of Iodoral for a couple months. For the last 2 years I have taken 12.5

mg. of Iodoral. My oral temperature today at 3 pm was 98.5. Researchers

say peak temperatures are from 4-6 pm.

Lynn

> That is very intersting Lynn. I take temps at work all day long and

> was wondering why everyone's temp is so low. All these pt.'s are sick

> or have an operation but WOW! I find most of them have a temp of 97.

> something. Very few are above 98.3. MANY older people have very low

> temps in the 95's! Thanks for the this information.

>

> Janie

[Guest guest]

Yes, that would be very interesting. Are your FT3 and 4's at opitmal

now? I was beginning to think half the world has a thyroid problem.

With all the floride/chorine in the water, bromine everywhere, I

wonder how many people really are low in thyroid function? Some of

those old people barely read over 95.0. Makes me wonder if they went

to a holistic DR. and got all the right hormones, iodine and such,

just how much better they all would feel?

My father (78 yrs old and has had Lyme's for over 45 yrs) would

benifit greatly with iodine but he won't hear of it and he lives in

another state so its hopeless to try to work with him on it. :-(

I am hoping by winter, when I am usually freezing cold all the time,

MAYBE my temps will be normal, thus ME being able to keep warmer. :-)

Janie

>

> I think it would be interesting to research the average body

temperature of

> people who had optimal thyroid test values (FT3 & FT4 in upper 1/3

of range,

> no antibodies) and sufficient iodine.

>

> I take 2.5 of dessicated thyroid daily. I took kelp for 5 years

and then 50

> mg. of Iodoral for a couple months. For the last 2 years I have

taken 12.5

> mg. of Iodoral. My oral temperature today at 3 pm was 98.5.

Researchers

> say peak temperatures are from 4-6 pm.

>

> Lynn

>

>

> > That is very intersting Lynn. I take temps at work all day long

and

> > was wondering why everyone's temp is so low. All these pt.'s are

sick

> > or have an operation but WOW! I find most of them have a temp of

97.

> > something. Very few are above 98.3. MANY older people have very

low

> > temps in the 95's! Thanks for the this information.

> >

> > Janie

>

[Guest guest]

Lynn,

I find this very interesting. Did you read anything about an unstable

temperature pattern?

My temps are highest in the morning with the noon reading the lowest &

afternoon in between.

Gale

>

> > Yes, that would be very interesting. Are your FT3 and 4's at opitmal

> > now?

> I don't know. After being on too little Armour for years and years,

I've

> had a lot of variation in my dosage for the last 7 years. I did

well on 2.5

> grains for a few years, and then for various reasons I gradually

went up to

> 4.5 grains for a while, which lead to my FT3 and FT4 eventually

became way

> over range. I had started Iodoral while at that dosage, so maybe that's

> part of the reason that dosage eventually became too high. I

started having

> trouble with heart palpitations and dropped down to 2 grains for 6

months or

> so to get rid of them. At 2 grains, my FT3/4 were at the lower end

of the

> range (with a TSH of .01, shows what a worthless test that is).

I've been

> back at 2.5 grains for about 9 months and it feels like a good dose. I

> think the palpitations will come back if I go higher. I was

diagnosed in

> January with premature atrial contractions. I've been hypothyroid

my whole

> life, so I don't think I'd know what optimal feels like.

>

> I was beginning to think half the world has a thyroid problem.

> > With all the floride/chorine in the water, bromine everywhere, I

> > wonder how many people really are low in thyroid function? Some of

> > those old people barely read over 95.0. Makes me wonder if they went

> > to a holistic DR. and got all the right hormones, iodine and such,

> > just how much better they all would feel?

>

> Yes, conventional medicine thinks older people just have lower

temperatures

> and doesn't consider it to be a reason for treatment. Cancer

patients tend

> to have lower temps too. I think the lower temperatures are a

reflection of

> the body not functioning well. I'd like to know what kind of

temperatures

> people in an uncivilized part of the world have, where they haven't been

> exposed to all our chemicals.

>

>

> > My father (78 yrs old and has had Lyme's for over 45 yrs) would

> > benifit greatly with iodine but he won't hear of it and he lives in

> > another state so its hopeless to try to work with him on it. :-(

>

> That's such a frustrating experience, when you have to let a loved

one just

> be despite your knowledge to the contrary.

>

> > I am hoping by winter, when I am usually freezing cold all the time,

> > MAYBE my temps will be normal, thus ME being able to keep warmer. :-)

> >

> > Janie

>

> It happened for me.

> Lynn

>

[Guest guest]

At 2 grains, my FT3/4 were at the lower end of the

> range (with a TSH of .01, shows what a worthless test that is).

I've been

> back at 2.5 grains for about 9 months and it feels like a good dose.

I...........

> Lynn

>

Dear Lynn,

I am wondering why you feel the TSH test is worthless. Maybe it is the

normal range that is skewed because the test group were all

hypothyroid and hypo-iodine. I am not arguing with your statement,

just wondering if there is something else about it I don't know.

I have been cutting my pill in half and taking it morning and

afternoon because I read that I should do that so the T3 level will be

more constant. This morning I was so tired at 10 I went back to bed

and I think I actually fell asleep for a few minutes. I never take

naps in the morning, although I always do after lunch. I decided to

take my other half pill and I feel a bit less sleepy and wiped out at

the moment, so maybe I can get to the grocery store and back in one piece.

I think I might have found a helpful endocrinologist. She is

allopathic, so my insurance will pay, but is willing to look at

alternative therapies, according to her web page anyway. The old

clinic got me an appointment tomorrow with her. I plan to ask her

about upping my dosage.

Dorothy

Dorothy

[Guest guest]

> Lynn,

>

> I find this very interesting. Did you read anything about an unstable

> temperature pattern?

Not at all. What I read was research attempting to establish normal

temperature in healthy people. I didn't find any reference to the kind of

unstable pattern that Dr. Rind discusses in reference to adrenal dysfunction

or even the low temperatures found in hypothyroidism.

> My temps are highest in the morning with the noon reading the lowest &

> afternoon in between.

Sounds like an unusual pattern.

>

> Gale

Lynn

[Guest guest]

> At 2 grains, my FT3/4 were at the lower end of the

> > range (with a TSH of .01, shows what a worthless test that is).

> Dear Lynn,

> I am wondering why you feel the TSH test is worthless. Maybe it is the

> normal range that is skewed because the test group were all

> hypothyroid and hypo-iodine. I am not arguing with your statement,

> just wondering if there is something else about it I don't know.

Your statement makes me think you don't understand that TSH values should be

high when the body needs more thyroid hormone. The reference range for TSH

is 0.3-3.0 and optimal is probably around 1.5. TSH is the acronym for

Thyroid Stimulating Hormone. When thyroid levels are low (as indicated by

my lower range FT3 and FT4, which are hormones produced directly by the

thyroid), the pituitary produces TSH, which stimulates the thyroid to

produce more T4, T3, T2, T1, and calcitonin. My TSH of 0.01 means my

pituitary was not asking for more thyroid hormone, like it should have since

my thyroid hormone levels were below optimal levels.

I think TSH has worth when it's above range, which I believe unequivocably

indicates hypothyroidism (I've never read anything to the contrary). The

problem is interpreting normal and below normal TSH values. Many times

TSH can be low or normal and the person is actually clinically hypothyroid.

TSH is part of a feedback loop involving the hypothalamus, pituitary,

thyroid gland, and thyroid receptors. There are many conditions that

interfere with the feedback loop working correctly. Hypothalamus or

pituitary conditions, iodine deficiency, and taking supplemental thyroid can

all throw off the feedback loop (TSH value). Thyroid antibodies can mean

the thyroid the body produces is destroyed, which makes the TSH value

meaningless as a measure of thyroid health. Instead of depending on one

measure in a feedback loop, far better to just measure the thyroid hormones

directly (FT3 and FT4). The FT3 has some drawbacks; it is a newer, more

expensive test, and not always available from local labs, so results can

take longer. The unenlightened medical community don't seem to recognize

the value of measuring FT3, the active form of thyroid hormone.

I've read a number of research reports that find that TSH is the least

accurate indicator of thyroid status. But if a doctor doesn't order it, he

will be accused by medical boards of not providing standard of care

treatment.

> I have been cutting my pill in half and taking it morning and

> afternoon because I read that I should do that so the T3 level will be

> more constant.

Yes, that's good. When my adrenals were low, and I was taking at least 3

grains, I did best taking it over 4 doses.

> This morning I was so tired at 10 I went back to bed

> and I think I actually fell asleep for a few minutes. I never take

> naps in the morning, although I always do after lunch.

The consistent need to take a nap is one of my best indicators that I need

more thyroid.

> I decided to

> take my other half pill and I feel a bit less sleepy and wiped out at

> the moment, so maybe I can get to the grocery store and back in one piece.

>

> I think I might have found a helpful endocrinologist. She is

> allopathic, so my insurance will pay, but is willing to look at

> alternative therapies, according to her web page anyway. The old

> clinic got me an appointment tomorrow with her. I plan to ask her

> about upping my dosage.

>

> Dorothy

Good luck with the endocrinologist.

Lynn

[Guest guest]

> Your statement makes me think you don't understand that TSH values

should be

> high when the body needs more thyroid hormone. The reference range

for TSH

> is 0.3-3.0 and optimal is probably around 1.5.

Don't know what I said to make you think that. Actually my TSH has

been running about 3.5. Normal range given for this lab is 0.45 - 4/50

mUL. I was just told that my last one 10 days ago was less than 1. I

don't know what that is about as I am not feeling very awake and

energetic.

........ Instead of depending on one

> measure in a feedback loop, far better to just measure the thyroid

hormones

> directly (FT3 and FT4).

I did persuade them to to a panel. Am trying to find out what the

results were.

>

> Good luck with the endocrinologist.

> Lynn

>

Yeah, right. :<( Wasn't interested in the Brownstein book. Informed

me that excess iodine can cause hypo- and hyperthyroid. I said it can

actually cure both. She just looked incredulous and left the room.

Wouldn't up the thyroid dose. Did order a couple of adrenal tests when

I asked. Gave me lab orders to check the TSH and free T3 and " TSH

w/reflex to free T4 " (Don't know what that is. will have to look it

up.) in three weeks.

So it looks like I am still on my own. I did find out I shouldn't take

I or selenium with Vit C. So I think I will do the I drops and Se in

water with 1/4 tsp sea salt and thyroid pill, first thing and wait for

the other stuff. Does thatsound OK? Am also doing the B2 and B3 pills

three times a day instead of two for awhile.

The headache is better. Must be detox. The salt might be helping that.

I didn't sleep long last night, but that was probably anticipation

about the dr apt. You wouldn't think that was that exciting, but my

body seems to think otherwise. ...pause to EFT that......

Dorothy

[Guest guest]

dorothyroeder " wrote:

> > Your statement makes me think you don't understand that TSH values

> should be

> > high when the body needs more thyroid hormone. >

> Don't know what I said to make you think that.

You were wondering why, after I had said I had low FT3/FT4 and TSH of 0.01,

I said TSH was worthless. Well if TSH really correlated to thyroid

function, low FT3/FT4 values would be correlated with high TSH. In my case,

my almost zero TSH values would seem to indicate I was hyperthyroid. So

what value is the TSH for me, when it indicates the opposite of my actual

condition?

See http://www.altsupportthyroid.org/tsh/tshmedrefs1.php, Hypothyroidism and

the TSH Reference Range: Medical Journals and Associations.

> Actually my TSH has

> been running about 3.5. Normal range given for this lab is 0.45 - 4/50

> mUL.

Yes, unfortunately a lot of labs are still using that outdated range. In

2002, the American Association of Clinical Endocrinologist (AACE) changed

the recommended reference range to 0.3 to 3.0. See

http://thyroid.about.com/cs/testsforthyroid/a/newrange.htm. A TSH of 3.5

means hypothyroid.

> I was just told that my last one 10 days ago was less than 1. I

> don't know what that is about as I am not feeling very awake and

> energetic.

Confirmation that it's a lousy indicator.

>> Instead of depending on one

> > measure in a feedback loop, far better to just measure the thyroid

>> hormones directly (FT3 and FT4).

> I did persuade them to to a panel. Am trying to find out what the

> results were.

My understanding is that the thyroid panel is based on calculated values and

was devised before it was possible to actually measure FT3 and FT4. It's an

old-fashioned test. You may learn something from it, but it's not the best

test.

> > Good luck with the endocrinologist.

> > Lynn

> Yeah, right. :<

Endocrinologists are the worst for hypothyroid treatment. You already had

the appointment, so it was too late to tell you to not go to an

endocrinologist. There was a remote possibility you might have gotten an

enlightened one.

> ( Wasn't interested in the Brownstein book. Informed

> me that excess iodine can cause hypo- and hyperthyroid. I said it can

> actually cure both. She just looked incredulous and left the room.

> Wouldn't up the thyroid dose. Did order a couple of adrenal tests when

> I asked. Gave me lab orders to check the TSH and free T3 and " TSH

> w/reflex to free T4 " (Don't know what that is. will have to look it

> up.) in three weeks.

If you had blood adrenal tests, they don't show much until you're at the

point of 's disease, i.e., complete failure.

The TSH w/reflex to free T4 means the lab won't do the free T4 unless your

TSH is out of range. If you did get an order for a free T3 test, that's

pretty good. But it's not enough to be in range, you want it to be in the

upper quartile of the range to be optimal. It's not enough for a doctor to

order the right tests, they have to know how to interpret them

intelligently. Also, have you ever had thyroid antibody tests?

> So it looks like I am still on my own. I did find out I shouldn't take

> I or selenium with Vit C. So I think I will do the I drops and Se in

> water with 1/4 tsp sea salt and thyroid pill, first thing and wait for

> the other stuff. Does thatsound OK?

I think so.

> Am also doing the B2 and B3 pills

> three times a day instead of two for awhile.

>

> The headache is better. Must be detox. The salt might be helping that.

> I didn't sleep long last night, but that was probably anticipation

> about the dr apt. You wouldn't think that was that exciting, but my

> body seems to think otherwise. ...pause to EFT that......

> Dorothy

Your were probably anticipating another typical dodo doctor, which you got.

Sounds like you need to move on to someone that is recommended. Or else

order your own tests and order your own meds.

Lynn

[Guest guest]

>

> Your were probably anticipating another typical dodo doctor, which

you got.

> Sounds like you need to move on to someone that is recommended. Or else

> order your own tests and order your own meds.

>

> Lynn

>

I can't afford to order my own tests and meds. It is all I can do to

get a few of the most important supplements. I figure I will just let

them do the tests and do my own interpretation of the results. Just

for amusement I will badger them with occasional opinions of my own.

Not that anything I say is worthwhile if they won't look at the

evidence and available research papers.

Actually I found out my last TSH was 1.9. Just goes to show you it

doesn't matter how much thyroid hormone I have. If all it has to work

with is fluoride, chloride and bromide it won't help me much.

Anyway, I am hoping you guys will steer me in the right direction if I

get off track. I am doing 4 drops Lugol's twice a day with a generous

1/4 tsp sea salt, Mg, Se. I have to give up on splitting the thyroid

pill as 1/2 didn't get me halfway through the morning. I have still

have some synthroid. I suppose I could augment with that, but my

better judgement says wait and see if the thyroid won't recover. I

also am taking 100mg B2 and 400mg B3, 1000mg Vit C three times a day

with meals, B complex and ALA once. Some of the adrenal support

formulas look good, but I am out of money for awhile.

About the TSH test, I was just saying that if the participants in the

study that they use to set the norms are not screened for

hypothyroidism the range is skewed way high, if the iodine-savvy drs

are right and at least half the population is hypothyroid. It is not

the test that is bad, but the way it is interpreted. Which is pretty

much what you said.

Dorothy

[Guest guest]

carrie, hey, good for you! this is gonna be fun watching us get better together!!! you'll need to have the Free T3 lab done as well and we need the normal ranges to determine if the results are okay or not for your TSH, Free T3 and Free T4, okay?? sincerely, sandi Thienes <carriethienes@...> wrote: OK, While we're on the subject, can I ask if anyone can interpret my labs? My ND only ordered TSH and free T-4. My labs were taken after fasting (don't know if that matters). My TSH 3rd Generation was 1.88 and T-4 Free was 1.5. Other than that, I have other hypothyroid/iodine deficiency symptoms such as fatigue, low energy, estrogen dominance, hair loss, anger/depression. I started tracking my average temps and I have been 96.6, 96.8, 96.8, and 97.0 for the past 4 days, respectively. I

just started taking 2 drops of Lugol's a day and have noticed no ill effects. I plan to gradually increase to 4. Any thoughts on this, based on my temps, symptoms, and labs? TIA, E Thieneshttp://oreganicthrifty.blogspot.com

[Guest guest]

If you did get an order for a free T3 test, that's

> pretty good. But it's not enough to be in range, you want it to be

in the

> upper quartile of the range to be optimal. It's not enough for a

doctor to

> order the right tests, they have to know how to interpret them

> intelligently. Also, have you ever had thyroid antibody tests?

Lynn

I never got an antibody test. I was going to ask but forgot. She did

say I could add to the lab order (strangely enough) to be done in

three weeks. What would that be called? There is a TBII, a

thyroglobulin, a thyroglobulin level (thyca-......that looks like the

end of the thyroid tests. the next one is a VAP {vertical

auto-prof......

The tests from 10 days ago were TSH 1.9 and free T3 36 (normal 23-42).

Those were from when I was on levoxyl.

Dorothy

[Guest guest]

Sandi,

Thanks so much for your feedback! OK, so the Free T3 and Free t4. Do you think I should just go to Health Check USA for the thyroid panel? There's one near my house! Otherwise, I'm sure my ND would order it for me.

TIA!!

E Thieneshttp://oreganicthrifty.blogspot.com

Re: Re: Normal body temperature.98.2

carrie, hey, good for you! this is gonna be fun watching us get better together!!!

you'll need to have the Free T3 lab done as well and we need the normal ranges to determine if the results are okay or not for your TSH, Free T3 and Free T4, okay??

sincerely, sandi

Thienes <carriethieneshotmail> wrote:

OK,

While we're on the subject, can I ask if anyone can interpret my labs?

My ND only ordered TSH and free T-4. My labs were taken after fasting (don't know if that matters).

My TSH 3rd Generation was 1.88 and T-4 Free was 1.5.

Other than that, I have other hypothyroid/iodine deficiency symptoms such as fatigue, low energy, estrogen dominance, hair loss, anger/depression.

I started tracking my average temps and I have been 96.6, 96.8, 96.8, and 97.0 for the past 4 days, respectively.

I just started taking 2 drops of Lugol's a day and have noticed no ill effects. I plan to gradually increase to 4.

Any thoughts on this, based on my temps, symptoms, and labs?

TIA,

E Thieneshttp://oreganicthriftyblogspot.com

[Guest guest]

you're very welcome. whichever costs the least would be my choice. sincerely, sandi Thienes <carriethienes@...> wrote: Sandi, Thanks so much for your feedback! OK, so the Free T3 and Free t4. Do you think I should just go to Health Check USA for the thyroid panel? There's one near my house! Otherwise, I'm sure my ND would order it

for me. TIA!! E Thieneshttp://oreganicthrifty.blogspot.com Re: Re: Normal body temperature.98.2 carrie, hey, good for you! this is gonna be fun watching us get better together!!! you'll need to have the Free T3 lab done as well and we need the normal ranges to determine if the results are okay or not for your TSH, Free T3 and Free T4, okay?? sincerely, sandi Thienes <carriethieneshotmail> wrote: OK, While we're on the subject, can I ask if anyone can interpret my labs? My ND only ordered TSH and free T-4. My labs were taken after fasting (don't know if that matters). My TSH 3rd Generation was 1.88 and T-4 Free was 1.5. Other than that, I have other hypothyroid/iodine deficiency symptoms such as fatigue, low energy, estrogen dominance, hair loss, anger/depression. I started tracking my average temps and I have been 96.6, 96.8, 96.8, and 97.0 for the past 4 days, respectively. I just started taking 2 drops of Lugol's a day and have noticed no ill effects. I plan to gradually increase to 4.

Any thoughts on this, based on my temps, symptoms, and labs? TIA, E Thieneshttp://oreganicthriftyblogspot.com