Soy, etc.

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 4/8/2003 12:23:27 AM Pacific Daylight Time,

Monroe@... writes:

> Soy is one that I'd never even thought of as an

> estrogen problem. I was going to start putting tofu in her smoothies

> for extra protein. Now I know better.

Dear ,

Also, flax seed and flax oil has the same effect. Sad to say--as I LOVE the

stuff. But it's very high in plant estrogens.

in LA

[Guest guest]

Thanks for the feedback Bee,

I did take the time to read your article and must say

that I agree with the vast majority of it. Also, thank

you for reinforcing my use of real butter and I will

certainly be researching the risks of soy- thank you!

My only thoughts or possible disagreements with the

content are minor and based on my own research and

personal experiences. Perhaps relating some of that

personal situation is due here.

I have a big strike against me in that I am

HIV-positive and thus am dealing with an already

compromised immune system. Besides this however my

blood work is very good and have never been on any

type of drug regimen. (HAART). On that note if there

are any other poz individuals in the group and would

like to share experiences I would be glad to do that

either here in the forum or via discreet personal

email.

To get back to the candida subject the only items I

would question in the article content is your apparent

high use of Nystatin. In the oral form It was one of

the first things prescribed by my doctor for fungal

treatment and provided no benefit. In fact, in me, it

was causing complications. After almost a whole course

of treatment it had little effect on the Thrush and It

was causing minor Aphthous Ulcers which were painful

(better known as canker sores). He then gave me two

tabs of Dyclovan (sp?) which got rid of all visible

signs but the oral thrush returned within a month-

worse than before. We then tried oral Lamisil which

worked the quickest but once the script was done the

thrush reappeared within days. He then put me BACK on

the Nystatin and this time while I was on it I

developed a very large Major Aphthous Ulcer on the

back of my tongue (VERY painful!!) and the thrush was

again hardly affected. This was three-four months

ago and just now that ulcer is starting to receed. If

had a choice to live with thrush or the Aphtous Ulcers

I would take the Thrush any day!

I am sure my own compromised immune system has

something to do with this experience but this whole

thing caused my doctor to make a special point of

NEVER prescribing me Nystatin again.

Otherwise your supplement and vitamin regimens concur

almost precisely with my experience! To help clarify

my own personal treatment, now an anti candidas

lifestyle, I have noted my steps in order of priority

here:

1. DIET- NO sugar, MOST dairy or yeast. I go high

protein, as pointed out in the previous post. I

supplement this with whey protein powder twice a day,

also loaded with amino acids.

2. EXERCISE! This is a key in candida treatment I

can't praise too highly! How? I get lots of natural

aerobic exercise and go to the gym almost daily. I

try to combine aerobic and anerobic and rotate my

workout to concentrate on different muscle groups each

day. Besides obvious benefits of building your

cardio-vascular system it triggers natural endophins.

When you're in a situation such as mine you quickly

realize that one of your worst natural enemies which

complicates any disease or illness is STRESS.

Endorphins provide the natural high required to fight

stess- and ultimately candidas. I would not trade my

gym membership for any amount of anti-fungal

medication. for more information on endorphins I

suggest this link:

http://www.healingsprings.com/ENDORPHINS.htm

2. VITAMIN SUPPLEMENTS- Especially B complex,(HIV

infection eats up B complex) followed by C, D, E and

Magnesium, Iron and Folic Acid.

3. GARLIC - both raw and as a twice a day oral

supplement. Bee covers the benefits well!

4. PROBIOTIC- Acidophilus w. Bifudous.

5. GRAPEFRUIT SEED EXTRACT- (NOT to be confused with

Grape Seed Extract) Get concentrated and dilute it!

I do 10-12 drops in 8 ounces of water 2-3 times daily.

In somewhat higher concentrations and 4-5 x weekly I

dab this solution on areas which might be affected by

jock itch.

6. TEA TREE OIL- I use the mouthwash variety. It's

part of my regular moth treatment after I use a good

antisetic mouthwash. Tea Tree Oil is very soothing

and helps get rid of the hot/dry mouth feeling if you

think you have thrush re-apperaing. I even used it on

a rash I developed from something else I tried - and

it helped sooth considerably. i carry a small bottle

in my car.

7. SEA SALT- I use salt in moderation- but only SEA

SALT. (See Bee's article)

8. COCUNUT OIL - (Bee's article again)

9. EXTRA VIRGIN OLIVE OIL- (recently covered in the

forum)

10. HERBAL TEES- they DO help with the evils of

stress.

During my attempts to find relief I have tried other

" cures " . The most notable being Colloidial Silver.

Even though I was VERY skeptical at first I was

willing to try anything (after one of my Nystatin

episodes). I went out and purchased a well touted

variety of Colloidial silver ($39.00) and used it as

prescribed for a day and a half. The following morning

I woke up with a hives rash on my upper chest that was

VERY scary! My doctor thought it might be a

coincidence or I was exerienceing an improvement sign

in HIV infection. (upper chest rashes apparently have

had some association with decreasing viral loads) .

Either way it was probably triggering some kind of

reaction and I stopped it immediately! I think its one

of those cases that if something sounds too good to be

true it probably is- can we say " snake oil " ?

THREE LAC??? Although it seems to work on this last

minor flare up I had I probably was combating it well

with my diet anyway. So, the jury is still out on

Three-Lac. I've had no side effects from it after

being on it about a week. ( I would never resort to

just doing the Three-Lac alone without the special

diet anyway)

For what its worth, those are my personal experiences.

As of today I have NO signs of oral thrush, my face is

clear and my jock itch is almost gone. I DO think

it's important to note that these are MY personal

treatments and may or may not work for everyone. I

would like to point out Bee's article is probably one

of the best, most comprehensive outlines for candida

treatment I've seen.

I will cover why I have " flare-ups " in a future post.

Thanks all- for your time. I'm off to the gym to get

those ol' endorphins going!

--- Bee <beewilder@...> wrote:

---------------------------------

Dear ,

Welcome to our friendly helpful group. We're glad to

have you.

Thanks for you post. You seem to have a lot of good

ideas about

getting rid of candida.

If you haven't had a chance to read my article (in the

files to the

left side-bar) please do. You may find some totally

new information

about treating candida.

About using soy as a substitute cheese, or for that

matter soy

products of any kind - maybe you didn't know how bad

soy is for you.

My article explains it, and also check out this

article and others at

www.westonaprice.org

http://www.westonaprice.org/soy/ploy.html

As you said real organic butter is okay, as well as

pasteurized

butter and it is a much better fat than all

polyunsaturated and/or

trans-fat vegetable oils and margarines. Check out my

article on

oils and fats and about the cholesterol myth, etc.

Also see this

article " The Skinny on Fats " at:

http://www.westonaprice.org/know_your_fats/skinny.html

About yogurt, while it may have beneficial probiotics

I do not

recommend it in the 1st stages of getting rid of

candida. The

products available are pasteurized, very low in fat

and often do not

contain the proper probiotics and many people react to

it. My

candida has been cured for 18 years and I still can't

have yogurt,

however kefir is okay and so is cream (in small

quantities).

I hope you read my article to get an understanding of

the foundations

upon which this forum was built, and that you also

stick around and

share and enjoy.

Again, welcome,

Bee

> I'm a new member to this group but from my

experience

> of dealing with thrush and intestinal candidas the

> past few months I can clarify a couple points. This

> will also serve to provide the group with an

> introduction to my treatment experinces.

>

> 1. Yes, I would suggest no cheese whatsoever. But

> there are some palatabable substitues that most any

> health food store or major grocery chain should

carry.

> I use shreded " cheeses " that are soy based. Also,

if

> you're into parmesan I've discovered Vegan by

Soymage.

> Granted these do not have the taste of the real

> thing but you can grow adjusted to the taste.

>

> 2. No cream! I've heard that some say that some

heavy

> is acceptable but I tried it a few times in tea and

> found it in itself can promote thrush. I have also

> heard that real organic butter is OK and I am usng

> that now with no ill side effects. However, I do

> alternate it with a substitue.

>

> 3. You're speaking of Three-Lac. I started using it

> twice a day just last week and it's easy to use.

> Although i was skepital at first it seems to be

> working on ridding me of this latest onslaught of

> thrush.

>

> 4. No four- so go forth!

>

> 5. How long? that depends on when syptoms

disapperar.

> Since my first bout with the evil candidas months

ago

> I have been able to almost control it at will if I

get

> a flare up. It took me abut three weeks to make I go

> bye-bye the first time then I continued on the diet

> strictly for another week, later that I still do

> certain things like stay away from the MAJOR no-no's

> wile reintroducing in small quantites SECONDARY

> no-no's.

>

> The bigest no-no's are refined sugar, chocolate,

yeast

> and caffiene. Secondary no-no's would be most

> vinegar, peanuts or cashews, most dairy, wheat.

With

> the kids this is going to be a big problem. No candy

> bars, no cola sodas. The ONLY substitute that I

have

> found regarding sugar that works is Stevia. I have

> used carob cover almonds for a snack but very

> sparingly. As far as snacking for kids I might

> suggest popcorn. Try to get organic and low kernel.

>

> Oh yea- YOGURT is good food! Have the kids eat it

all

> the time! becasue I can't stomach the taste of just

> plain yogurt all the time I do a 50/50 mix- mixing

the

> plain with a fruited variety. I eat two cups a day.

>

> Finally, be prepared to go kid grocery shopping and

> taking twice as long because your going to be

reading

> ingredient labels on everything. My rule of thumb

is

> nothing in my basket with over 8 g of sugar. and

watch

> the cards because ultimately carbs = sugar. Unless

the

> item has benefit properties that help promote good

> bacteria and gut flora- like yogurt. But even with

> yougurt I never get anything with over 15 g of

sugar.

> Pick up lots of protein: fish, eggs, beef, chicken

and

> turkey are all good. Veggies too- the greener the

> better. Some fruits - in moderation- most are

loaded

> with sugar but they also offer benefits. I sugest

> bananas and pears. Just from experience i can

stomach

> these best.

>

> I have lots more suggestions- especially ragarding

> supplements but I'll save those for a later post.

>

> Egads- too long a reply as it is!

> Good Luck with the kids!

[Guest guest]

I've read that soy is processed by using aluminum now and, since I've lost 5

close family members to Alzheimer's, and two are on their way there now, I stay

totally away from soy. I'm with you in that I make up my own mind about my

health issues. My brother once told me that he thinks of a doctor as a

consultant in his health decisions. I liked that.

Amber

With all due respect, I am not going to wait on a sanctioned clinical

study by a medical group to make my health decisions. I am not sure

that I would trust it anyway. That is why most of us are here to

start with.

As for the soy, it is processed much differently today than it use to

be processed.

.

[Guest guest]

Your post on how soy is produced with aluminum was rather vague and I wonder

ifyou have any more specific information.  Oragniz soy - tofu vs. soybeans, vs.

soymilk (all the various brands) and how in the world aluminum is useful in the

manufacturing process?????  I'm sure more information and/or your sources would

be extremely interesting to this group.  thanks

From: Amber <amber@...>

Subject: Soy, etc.

gallstones

Date: Friday, April 11, 2008, 3:20 PM

I've read that soy is processed by using aluminum now and, since I've lost 5

close family members to Alzheimer's, and two are on their way there now, I stay

totally away from soy. I'm with you in that I make up my own mind about my

health issues. My brother once told me that he thinks of a doctor as a

consultant in his health decisions. I liked that.

Amber

With all due respect, I am not going to wait on a sanctioned clinical

study by a medical group to make my health decisions. I am not sure

that I would trust it anyway. That is why most of us are here to

start with.

As for the soy, it is processed much differently today than it use to

be processed.

..

[Guest guest]

I remember reading something from s Moritz where he stated that

soy contains enzyme inhibitors that are toxic. He also mentioned

something about the Japanese fermentation process that takes years,

but it will presumably make soy much safer. I think he was implying

that not just any fermentation process will alleviate the toxicity.

I also read another source, I think the Weston Price Foundation, that

giving a young male soy is very harmful. It is the same as consuming

4 birth control pills a day.

Someone else told me that if young males consume enough, it can

render them infertile.

I have a male relative that had a lump removed from his breast that

his surgeon attributed to his soy intake.

Then, there are the processing problems...

I will never touch soy again.

>

> From: Amber <amber@...>

> Subject: Soy, etc.

> gallstones

> Date: Friday, April 11, 2008, 3:20 PM

>

>

>

>

>

>

> I've read that soy is processed by using aluminum now and, since

I've lost 5 close family members to Alzheimer's, and two are on their

way there now, I stay totally away from soy. I'm with you in that I

make up my own mind about my health issues. My brother once told me

that he thinks of a doctor as a consultant in his health decisions. I

liked that.

>

> Amber

>

> With all due respect, I am not going to wait on a sanctioned

clinical

> study by a medical group to make my health decisions. I am not sure

> that I would trust it anyway. That is why most of us are here to

> start with.

>

> As for the soy, it is processed much differently today than it use

to

> be processed.

> .

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Your post on how soy is produced with aluminum was rather vague and I wonder

ifyou have any more specific information. Oragniz soy - tofu vs. soybeans,

vs. soymilk (all the various brands) and how in the world aluminum is useful

in the manufacturing process????? I'm sure more information and/or your

sources would be extremely interesting to this group. thanks

Oh, when I read that, I was thinking " Wow, I read that, too " and then I saw

the message below and saw it was an old one of mine. I don't remember where

I read it now, but I've stayed away from soy since my family has such a

prevalence of Alz sufferers. Perhaps you can do some research yourself.

Amber

[Guest guest]

>I also read another source, I think the Weston Price Foundation, that

giving a young male soy is very harmful. It is the same as consuming

4 birth control pills a day.

Someone else told me that if young males consume enough, it can

render them infertile.

I have a male relative that had a lump removed from his breast that

his surgeon attributed to his soy intake.

Then, there are the processing problems...

I will never touch soy again.>

Oh, this reminds me, my N.D. told me that many young boys were so feminized

by consuming soy products that they were developing breasts!

Amber

[Guest guest]

I have a son who is now 10 years old. We gave him soy formula when

he was an infant. We did not know any better. He was probably on it

for about 6 months. I am concerned about this. But there is nothing

that we can do now. I do know that there are kids that consumed soy

for a lot longer period than him. I am hoping that he was not

harmed. But there is no way of knowing at this point. I try not to

worry.

>

>

> >I also read another source, I think the Weston Price Foundation,

that

> giving a young male soy is very harmful. It is the same as

consuming

> 4 birth control pills a day.

>

> Someone else told me that if young males consume enough, it can

> render them infertile.

>

> I have a male relative that had a lump removed from his breast that

> his surgeon attributed to his soy intake.

>

> Then, there are the processing problems...

>

> I will never touch soy again.>

>

>

> Oh, this reminds me, my N.D. told me that many young boys were so

feminized

> by consuming soy products that they were developing breasts!

>

> Amber

>

[Guest guest]

> I have a son who is now 10 years old. We gave him soy formula when

> he was an infant. We did not know any better. He was probably on it

> for about 6 months. I am concerned about this. But there is nothing

> that we can do now. I do know that there are kids that consumed soy

> for a lot longer period than him. I am hoping that he was not

> harmed. But there is no way of knowing at this point. I try not to

> worry.

>

Probably nothing to worry about now. If only for 6 months when he was a

baby is different from adolescent boys consuming it.

Amber

[Guest guest]

If you read the book THE WHOLE SOY STORY it will convince you that soy is not

the way to go. I personally know people who have thyriod problems from too much

soy, and men who didn't know why their libido was going down hill, babies born

with ascending testicles, and the list goes on. It makes sense not to consume

something that tastes so very vile, anyway! Way back when they used to plant

soy and then turn it over for nitrogen. Everyone thinks China eats so much soy,

but they really don't....just a small amount. Being vegetarian we will consume

small amounts if we want to grill a 'burger', but that's it. Just scares me

after reading so many negative things about it. And I understand that 75% of it

is genetically modified, so is not even a real food anymore!

Thanks for letting me vent!

herbladie

Re: Soy, etc.

I remember reading something from s Moritz where he stated that

soy contains enzyme inhibitors that are toxic. He also mentioned

something about the Japanese fermentation process that takes years,

but it will presumably make soy much safer. I think he was implying

that not just any fermentation process will alleviate the

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Infants and soy do not go well together however, once out of infancy

soy is superior to most if not all our compromised dairy products. The

eastern nations have been consuming soy since before Christ with no

adverse effects.

Someone in this group please correct me if I am wrong but, as far as I

know there has never been a legitimate, independently sanctioned

study that has concluded that soy has any negative effects.

My alternative health care practitioner has been following the

studies and has discovered the dairy industry has been influential in

spreading several myths on the efficacy of soy ever since soy began

eating into market share.

There is a book, The China Study, written by nutrition and health

researcher, Dr. T. Colin , who reveals the truth behind

special interest groups, government entities and scientists that have

taken Americans down a deadly nutritional path. The book has been

hailed as one of the most comprehensive studies - for a review go here

- http://www.thechinastudy.com/about.html -- or here ---

http://www.news.cornell.edu/Chronicle/01/6.28.01/China_Study_II.html

-

the book had a difficult time being released in this country (USA) but

finally was- guess what one of the products Dr. Colin contends has

been instrumental to the superior health of the eastern population -

you guessed it SOY!

So before believing anything you read on the net concerning soy- do ur

homework and find out where the study originated, and who paid for

it. I was off of soy for a year after reading about its harmful long

term effects- I am back on it now after discovering the studies were

suspect to say the least.

Good luck

F

On Jul 1, 2008, at 1:57 PM, fjnie1234 wrote:

> I have a son who is now 10 years old. We gave him soy formula when

> he was an infant. We did not know any better. He was probably on it

> for about 6 months. I am concerned about this. But there is nothing

> that we can do now. I do know that there are kids that consumed soy

> for a lot longer period than him. I am hoping that he was not

> harmed. But there is no way of knowing at this point. I try not to

> worry.

>

>

> >

> >

> > >I also read another source, I think the Weston Price Foundation,

> that

> > giving a young male soy is very harmful. It is the same as

> consuming

> > 4 birth control pills a day.

> >

> > Someone else told me that if young males consume enough, it can

> > render them infertile.

> >

> > I have a male relative that had a lump removed from his breast that

> > his surgeon attributed to his soy intake.

> >

> > Then, there are the processing problems...

> >

> > I will never touch soy again.>

> >

> >

> > Oh, this reminds me, my N.D. told me that many young boys were so

> feminized

> > by consuming soy products that they were developing breasts!

> >

> > Amber

> >

>

>

>

Battaglia

Tel 818 897 8500

Cel 818 268 5395

fbattaglia@...

[Guest guest]

This is exactly what i was referring to in my earlier post about

researching who these people are that are knocking soy

You should be aware that this book, " The Whole Soy Story " was authored

by Kaayla T. , PhD, CCN and that she is a member of the West*n A

Price Foundation Board of Directors. If you know anything about them,

this should send up red flags immediately.

The WAPF is an uber-anti-vegetarian organization that promotes a diet

high in animal fats as well as animal protein. They advise that vegan

mothers (should they even be able to conceive, which WAPF says is

nearly impossible) should not breastfeed their children, and advises

not to practice " strict vegetarianism (veganism) " because " animal

products provide vital nutrients not found in plant foods. "

If you have the stomach, read their misinformed articles on

vegetarianism and other issues.

Read Robbins' response to Kaayla ’s anti-soy article in

Mothering magazine: http://www.foodrevolution.org/mothering.htm

Here are letters to s from scientists who contend she

misrepresented their work

A letter in " Thyroid and gyn issues " from 2 scientists:

L. Strom

We are writing in response to the article by Kaayla entitled

" The Whole Soy Story, " to comment on her misleading statements about

our work.

The " buried " findings regarding thyroid problems, cervical cancer,

polycystic ovarian syndrome, blocked fallopian tubes, and pelvic

inflammatory disease specifically mentioned by Dr. were all

based on a very small number of events. The differences between the

group of patients receiving soy formula and those receiving milk

formula for each of these medical conditions did not even approach

statistical significance.

The finding regarding the use of asthma or allergy drugs was reported

in a table in the published paper because it was based on a larger

number of events, and it showed a statistically significant difference

between the two formula groups in females but not in males.

In our study we examined a large number of outcomes, including thyroid

function, which Dr. alleged was excluded as a subject for

study. Yet consistent with standard scientific principles, prior to

the start of the study we decided which outcomes would be the focus of

primary analyses and which would be designated as secondary. We

summarized the results from all our analyses, and we published the

results from the primary analyses, but also made available the results

from the secondary analyses to anyone who requested them, including

Dr. .

Finally, we find insulting the implication by Dr. that the soy

industry that sponsored part of this research influenced the outcomes

of our research. If it had not sponsored the research, Dr.

would have (rightly) criticized the manufacturers for not evaluating

the risks from their products. Further, we state emphatically that the

sponsor did not control the research design, the methods of data

analysis, or the content and conclusions of our study. Most important,

our study met all scientific criteria for rigorous peer-reviewed

scientific research.

BRIAN L. STROM, MD, MPH

RITA SCHINNAR, MPA

http://calbears.findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m0838/is_125/ai_n6116792

As always

Good luck

On Jul 1, 2008, at 2:32 PM, ROBERT D MARILYN J DOUGHTY wrote:

> If you read the book THE WHOLE SOY STORY it will convince you that

> soy is not the way to go. I personally know people who have thyriod

> problems from too much soy, and men who didn't know why their libido

> was going down hill, babies born with ascending testicles, and the

> list goes on. It makes sense not to consume something that tastes so

> very vile, anyway! Way back when they used to plant soy and then

> turn it over for nitrogen. Everyone thinks China eats so much soy,

> but they really don't....just a small amount. Being vegetarian we

> will consume small amounts if we want to grill a 'burger', but

> that's it. Just scares me after reading so many negative things

> about it. And I understand that 75% of it is genetically modified,

> so is not even a real food anymore!

> Thanks for letting me vent!

> herbladie

>

> Re: Soy, etc.

>

> I remember reading something from s Moritz where he stated that

> soy contains enzyme inhibitors that are toxic. He also mentioned

> something about the Japanese fermentation process that takes years,

> but it will presumably make soy much safer. I think he was implying

> that not just any fermentation process will alleviate the

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

[Guest guest]

>

> This is exactly what i was referring to in my earlier post about

> researching who these people are that are knocking soy ... <snip>

> The WAPF is an uber-anti-vegetarian organization that promotes a

> diet high in animal fats as well as animal protein.

Did you write this today or last October?

http://www.vegsource.com/talk/soy/messages/540.html

Either way, this is old news. People knocking people for knocking soy

is no longer interesting. Regardless of what M.D. got their feelings

hurt three years ago because someone pointed out some flaws, doesn't

change the fact that people have suffered from eating and taking soy.

Myself included.

Are you a doctor, M.D.? It would make sense that you would bash

Weston A. Price Foundation because not one medical doctor that I know

of is a proponent of traditional nutrition or animal fat.

> Read Robbins' response to Kaayla 's anti-soy article in

> Mothering magazine: http://www.foodrevolution.org/mothering.htm

Meaningless. This guy is confused about ancient cultures and really

how much animal protein and fat they ate and how little soy was used.

His message is contradictory.

-vanessa

[Guest guest]

Actually, as a former vegan who has had to change her diet due to

failing health (and gallstones), I have found the Weston A. Price

Foundation to be a wonderful source of accurate health information

based on the timeless dietary wisdom of several healthy primitive

cultures. Everything I have read from them is very well researched and

proven by both science and human history. Soy does contain many anti-

nutrients as well as weak estrogens that can be harmful in large

doses. (The FDA even includes soy in its poisonous plant database.)

It was almost always fermented and consumed in only small quantities

throughout human history.

The Weston A. Price Foundation only wants to help people achieve good

health and raise generation after generation of healthy children. It

was perhaps Weston A. Price's greatest disappointment that in his

travels he did not find any healthy primitive people who lived on plant

foods alone. Even the cultures that other writers reference in defence

of vegetarianism actually consumed nutrient dense animal foods as part

of their diets. The Okinawan Centenarians weren't consuming canola oil

for the last hundred years. They were getting their monounsaturated

fats from lard. Most sources of information out there are very biased

by their belief systems or their desires to sell you a product. It is

important to educate yourself and see beyond clever advertising. It is

also important to listen to your body and even your taste buds.

[Guest guest]

In otherwords you are not taking responsibility - you are pushing it off on

me/us other readers with " Hey, I said it but you go do the research yourself "

" gfys "

From: Amber <amber@...>

Subject: Re: Soy, etc.

gallstones

Date: Tuesday, July 1, 2008, 4:46 PM

Your post on how soy is produced with aluminum was rather vague and I wonder

ifyou have any more specific information. Oragniz soy - tofu vs. soybeans,

vs. soymilk (all the various brands) and how in the world aluminum is useful

in the manufacturing process????? I'm sure more information and/or your

sources would be extremely interesting to this group. thanks

Oh, when I read that, I was thinking " Wow, I read that, too " and then I saw

the message below and saw it was an old one of mine. I don't remember where

I read it now, but I've stayed away from soy since my family has such a

prevalence of Alz sufferers. Perhaps you can do some research yourself.

Amber

[Guest guest]

> In otherwords you are not taking responsibility - you are pushing it off

> on me/us other readers with " Hey, I said it but you go do the research

> yourself " " gfys "

I have been SO busy lately with helping sick people, plus Mom has been

diagnosed with Alzheimer's and that's taking most of my days right now. I

simply did not have time to go through all my papers to see where I had read

about soy being processed with aluminum, so I just did a search for you.

Some info is below. I'm guessing what your " gfys " means, and if I'm

correct, there was no need for that! I am only trying to help people but my

time is severely limited right now.

Amber

The Weston A. Price Foundation, a non-profit organization " dedicated to

restoring nutrient-dense foods to the human diet through education,

research, and activism, " is adamantly against the consumption of soy. A free

brochure entitled " Soy Alert! " warns, " Soy foods contain toxic aluminum. "

The presence of aluminum in soy causes alarm because scientific studies have

found high levels of aluminum in the brains of people with Alzheimer's

disease. (One-tenth of Americans over age 65 and about half of Americans

over age 85 have Alzheimer's.) But the Weston A. Price Foundation's

generalized statement does not mention that soybeans themselves do not

contain aluminum. However, soy can be contaminated with aluminum during a

process called thermoplastic extrusion, which transforms soybeans into

meat-like products.

EdenFoods, maker of a popular soy milk, addresses the aluminum concern. The

company says aluminum contamination " occurs only when producers use harsh

alkaline soaking solutions that leach aluminum from aluminum processing

equipment. Not all soy processing uses alkaline soaking solutions and not

all soy is produced using aluminum equipment. Harsh alkaline soaking

solutions are used mainly in the production of modern soy foods such as soy

protein isolates, soy protein concentrates, soy supplements, soy protein

shakes, textured soy protein (TSP), etc. " Soy milk, tofu, and tempeh

generally come from whole soybeans, not soy protein isolates, and therefore

would not be at risk of aluminum contamination. Ingredient labels can tell

you whether a food is made from whole soybeans or soy protein isolates.

However, some evidence shows that naturally occurring plant estrogens found

in soy, called isoflavones, may cause breast cancer. According to the

Cornell University's Program on Breast Cancer and Environmental Risk

Factors, the isoflavones in soy can both mimic and block estrogen, a hormone

produced in females (and to a lesser degree in males) that affects the

menstrual cycle and is responsible for breast and pubic hair growth. Studies

on the ability of isoflavones to prevent breast cancer have been

inconclusive. Other studies show that soy has the ability to increase milk

ducts in the breast, which could increase breast cancer risk. More testing

needs to be done before any conclusions can be made. Rumors that the plant

estrogens in soy cause breast growth in males have been circulating on the

Internet, but again there does not appear enough evidence to back up this

claim.

Until there is more conclusive research on the effects of soy on the human

body, it may be wise to consume soy in moderation. Choose soy products made

with whole soybeans (like tofu and tempeh) instead of imitation meats made

with soy protein isolates. Besides reducing your chances of ingesting

aluminum, these products contain fewer preservatives.

[Guest guest]

Amber is not responsible. You are. It is your body. This group is a

discussion not a scientific debate and proving ground. I assume that each of

the individuals on this group are here for one of two reasons or a combination

of both. Their own health (in which case they are responsible) or as accurate

advice or experience for others health as possible. This idea that someone

posts something and then is responsible for going back in their literature in

order to validate it for someone else on the group is a bit onerous. When

reading the medical literature I expect a complete bibliography with all stated

facts duly footnoted; when presented with a new concept by someone in this group

I expect to go into said literature to decide for myself if it is true or not.

Thinking and exploring for one's self is many times more valuable than expecting

others to do it for you. Besides, they might be wrong... Especially me.Dave

gallstones@...: lizsapar@...: Thu, 10 Jul 2008

13:07:27 -0700Subject: Re: Soy, etc.

In otherwords you are not taking responsibility - you are pushing it off on

me/us other readers with " Hey, I said it but you go do the research yourself "

" gfys " From: Amber

<amber@...>Subject: Re: Soy, etc.To:

gallstones@...: Tuesday, July 1, 2008, 4:46 PMYour post on how

soy is produced with aluminum was rather vague and I wonder ifyou have any more

specific information. Oragniz soy - tofu vs. soybeans, vs. soymilk (all the

various brands) and how in the world aluminum is useful in the manufacturing

process????? I'm sure more information and/or your sources would be extremely

interesting to this group. thanksOh, when I read that, I was thinking " Wow, I

read that, too " and then I saw the message below and saw it was an old one of

mine. I don't remember where I read it now, but I've stayed away from soy since

my family has such a prevalence of Alz sufferers. Perhaps you can do some

research yourself.Amber

[Guest guest]

Amber is not responsible. You are. It is your body. This group is a

discussion not a scientific debate and proving ground. I assume that each

of the individuals on this group are here for one of two reasons or a

combination of both. Their own health (in which case they are responsible)

or as accurate advice or experience for others health as possible. This

idea that someone posts something and then is responsible for going back in

their literature in order to validate it for someone else on the group is a

bit onerous. When reading the medical literature I expect a complete

bibliography with all stated facts duly footnoted; when presented with a new

concept by someone in this group I expect to go into said literature to

decide for myself if it is true or not. Thinking and exploring for one's

self is many times more valuable than expecting others to do it for you.

Besides, they might be wrong... Especially me.Dave

Thanks, Dave. I could not believe she said " gfys " because I didn't have

time at that moment to go back through my research.

Amber

[Guest guest]

Here here Dave

For everyone this site is a source- glean what you will from others

and double check everything for yourself- everyone is different

If you do not have the time or inclination to verify then you do not

have the time to take care for yourself and should seek out a

professional who you will pay for their time and they will relieve you

of the stress of follow up

On another note

I posted a while back on the book -- The China Study and how a number

of groups, including my alternative health care practitioner -

concerning soy- these groups had ties to the dairy and meat industry-

especially Weston and are notorious for putting out misinformation.

Aluminum in soyis a first for me- will look into it

By the way I have found Amber to be very helpful and dependable

Good Luck

F

On Jul 10, 2008, at 4:07 PM, Dave Shelden wrote:

>

> Amber is not responsible. You are. It is your body. This group is

> a discussion not a scientific debate and proving ground. I assume

> that each of the individuals on this group are here for one of two

> reasons or a combination of both. Their own health (in which case

> they are responsible) or as accurate advice or experience for others

> health as possible. This idea that someone posts something and then

> is responsible for going back in their literature in order to

> validate it for someone else on the group is a bit onerous. When

> reading the medical literature I expect a complete bibliography with

> all stated facts duly footnoted; when presented with a new concept

> by someone in this group I expect to go into said literature to

> decide for myself if it is true or not. Thinking and exploring for

> one's self is many times more valuable than expecting others to do

> it for you. Besides, they might be wrong... Especially me.Dave

>

> gallstones@...: lizsapar@...: Thu, 10

> Jul 2008 13:07:27 -0700Subject: Re: Soy, etc.

>

>

>

>

> In otherwords you are not taking responsibility - you are pushing it

> off on me/us other readers with " Hey, I said it but you go do the

> research yourself " " gfys " From: Amber <amber@...>Subject: Re:

> Soy, etc.gallstones@...: Tuesday,

> July 1, 2008, 4:46 PMYour post on how soy is produced with aluminum

> was rather vague and I wonder ifyou have any more specific

> information. Oragniz soy - tofu vs. soybeans, vs. soymilk (all the

> various brands) and how in the world aluminum is useful in the

> manufacturing process????? I'm sure more information and/or your

> sources would be extremely interesting to this group. thanksOh, when

> I read that, I was thinking " Wow, I read that, too " and then I saw

> the message below and saw it was an old one of mine. I don't

> remember where I read it now, but I've stayed away from soy since my

> family has such a prevalence of Alz sufferers. Perhaps you can do

> some research yourself.Amber [Non-text portions of this message have

> been removed]

>

>

>

>

>

> _________________________________________________________________

> The i’m Talkaton. Can 30-days of conversation change the world?

> http://www.imtalkathon.com/?source=EML_WLH_Talkathon_ChangeWorld

>

>

[Guest guest]

By the way I have found Amber to be very helpful and dependable

Good Luck

F

Bless you for that! My only aim is to try to help people. With the stress

I'm under right now with Mom's diagnosis of Alzheimer's (I've already lost 5

close family members to that disease), I need all the encouragement I can

get. Thanks.

Amber

[Guest guest]

excellent start to the soy-aluminum debate.  thank you for your work & pls

forgive the gfys I was really angry

From: Amber <amber@...>

Subject: Re: Soy, etc.

" Gallstone Group " <gallstones >

Date: Thursday, July 10, 2008, 4:21 PM

> In otherwords you are not taking responsibility - you are pushing it off

> on me/us other readers with " Hey, I said it but you go do the research

> yourself " " gfys "

I have been SO busy lately with helping sick people, plus Mom has been

diagnosed with Alzheimer's and that's taking most of my days right now. I

simply did not have time to go through all my papers to see where I had read

about soy being processed with aluminum, so I just did a search for you.

Some info is below. I'm guessing what your " gfys " means, and if I'm

correct, there was no need for that! I am only trying to help people but my

time is severely limited right now.

Amber

The Weston A. Price Foundation, a non-profit organization " dedicated to

restoring nutrient-dense foods to the human diet through education,

research, and activism, " is adamantly against the consumption of soy. A free

brochure entitled " Soy Alert! " warns, " Soy foods contain toxic aluminum. "

The presence of aluminum in soy causes alarm because scientific studies have

found high levels of aluminum in the brains of people with Alzheimer's

disease. (One-tenth of Americans over age 65 and about half of Americans

over age 85 have Alzheimer's. ) But the Weston A. Price Foundation's

generalized statement does not mention that soybeans themselves do not

contain aluminum. However, soy can be contaminated with aluminum during a

process called thermoplastic extrusion, which transforms soybeans into

meat-like products.

EdenFoods, maker of a popular soy milk, addresses the aluminum concern. The

company says aluminum contamination " occurs only when producers use harsh

alkaline soaking solutions that leach aluminum from aluminum processing

equipment. Not all soy processing uses alkaline soaking solutions and not

all soy is produced using aluminum equipment. Harsh alkaline soaking

solutions are used mainly in the production of modern soy foods such as soy

protein isolates, soy protein concentrates, soy supplements, soy protein

shakes, textured soy protein (TSP), etc. " Soy milk, tofu, and tempeh

generally come from whole soybeans, not soy protein isolates, and therefore

would not be at risk of aluminum contamination. Ingredient labels can tell

you whether a food is made from whole soybeans or soy protein isolates.

However, some evidence shows that naturally occurring plant estrogens found

in soy, called isoflavones, may cause breast cancer. According to the

Cornell University's Program on Breast Cancer and Environmental Risk

Factors, the isoflavones in soy can both mimic and block estrogen, a hormone

produced in females (and to a lesser degree in males) that affects the

menstrual cycle and is responsible for breast and pubic hair growth. Studies

on the ability of isoflavones to prevent breast cancer have been

inconclusive. Other studies show that soy has the ability to increase milk

ducts in the breast, which could increase breast cancer risk. More testing

needs to be done before any conclusions can be made. Rumors that the plant

estrogens in soy cause breast growth in males have been circulating on the

Internet, but again there does not appear enough evidence to back up this

claim.

Until there is more conclusive research on the effects of soy on the human

body, it may be wise to consume soy in moderation. Choose soy products made

with whole soybeans (like tofu and tempeh) instead of imitation meats made

with soy protein isolates. Besides reducing your chances of ingesting

aluminum, these products contain fewer preservatives.

[Guest guest]

Caution to all of you over these articles that appear on the net that

knock soy and soy products. Be thorough in your research - look for

supporting claims and closely examine the institutions making the

claims. It is a fact that The Weston A. Price Foundation has

connections to the meat and dairy industry and anything they put

forward should be vetted. Once of the most radical assertions is that

there is research that shows that isoflavones found in soy may cause

breast cancer. I have researched this claim and have found no basis

for this or any others that knock soy.

good luck

On Jul 22, 2008, at 1:00 PM, Liz Sapareto wrote:

> excellent start to the soy-aluminum debate. thank you for your work

> & pls forgive the gfys I was really angry

>

>

>

> From: Amber <amber@...>

> Subject: Re: Soy, etc.

> " Gallstone Group " <gallstones >

> Date: Thursday, July 10, 2008, 4:21 PM

>

> > In otherwords you are not taking responsibility - you are pushing

> it off

> > on me/us other readers with " Hey, I said it but you go do the

> research

> > yourself " " gfys "

>

> I have been SO busy lately with helping sick people, plus Mom has been

> diagnosed with Alzheimer's and that's taking most of my days right

> now. I

> simply did not have time to go through all my papers to see where I

> had read

> about soy being processed with aluminum, so I just did a search for

> you.

> Some info is below. I'm guessing what your " gfys " means, and if I'm

> correct, there was no need for that! I am only trying to help people

> but my

> time is severely limited right now.

>

> Amber

>

> The Weston A. Price Foundation, a non-profit organization " dedicated

> to

> restoring nutrient-dense foods to the human diet through education,

> research, and activism, " is adamantly against the consumption of

> soy. A free

> brochure entitled " Soy Alert! " warns, " Soy foods contain toxic

> aluminum. "

> The presence of aluminum in soy causes alarm because scientific

> studies have

> found high levels of aluminum in the brains of people with Alzheimer's

> disease. (One-tenth of Americans over age 65 and about half of

> Americans

> over age 85 have Alzheimer's. ) But the Weston A. Price Foundation's

> generalized statement does not mention that soybeans themselves do not

> contain aluminum. However, soy can be contaminated with aluminum

> during a

> process called thermoplastic extrusion, which transforms soybeans into

> meat-like products.

>

> EdenFoods, maker of a popular soy milk, addresses the aluminum

> concern. The

> company says aluminum contamination " occurs only when producers use

> harsh

> alkaline soaking solutions that leach aluminum from aluminum

> processing

> equipment. Not all soy processing uses alkaline soaking solutions

> and not

> all soy is produced using aluminum equipment. Harsh alkaline soaking

> solutions are used mainly in the production of modern soy foods such

> as soy

> protein isolates, soy protein concentrates, soy supplements, soy

> protein

> shakes, textured soy protein (TSP), etc. " Soy milk, tofu, and tempeh

> generally come from whole soybeans, not soy protein isolates, and

> therefore

> would not be at risk of aluminum contamination. Ingredient labels

> can tell

> you whether a food is made from whole soybeans or soy protein

> isolates.

>

> However, some evidence shows that naturally occurring plant

> estrogens found

> in soy, called isoflavones, may cause breast cancer. According to the

> Cornell University's Program on Breast Cancer and Environmental Risk

> Factors, the isoflavones in soy can both mimic and block estrogen, a

> hormone

> produced in females (and to a lesser degree in males) that affects the

> menstrual cycle and is responsible for breast and pubic hair growth.

> Studies

> on the ability of isoflavones to prevent breast cancer have been

> inconclusive. Other studies show that soy has the ability to

> increase milk

> ducts in the breast, which could increase breast cancer risk. More

> testing

> needs to be done before any conclusions can be made. Rumors that the

> plant

> estrogens in soy cause breast growth in males have been circulating

> on the

> Internet, but again there does not appear enough evidence to back up

> this

> claim.

>

> Until there is more conclusive research on the effects of soy on the

> human

> body, it may be wise to consume soy in moderation. Choose soy

> products made

> with whole soybeans (like tofu and tempeh) instead of imitation

> meats made

> with soy protein isolates. Besides reducing your chances of ingesting

> aluminum, these products contain fewer preservatives.

>

>

[Guest guest]

I wanted to second this and add a thought. If anyone tells you to

avoid an entire food group, you need to take it with a grain of salt.

(I'm not saying soy is a food group!) If you have an allergy, it is

one thing, but to avoid all dairy and meat (for instance) when it may

not be in your best interest is simply that- not in your best

interest. It may work great for some, but not all of us are supposed

to go without animal products. We consume LOTS of raw dairy and some

meat, but we don't run screaming from soy products. We do eat lots of

eggs in place of meat, simply because it's easier to cook. Think

about your heritage and what your ancestors ate, and it will help you

decide what your genetic make up is set up for. Also look into Dr.

Mercola's body typing or whatever it's called. I need to do this

myself. Dave enlightened me to my " dosha " which has some good food

suggestions as well. Take all of this information in and decide for

yourself what your diet needs to consist of. All of our organs are in

the same places (mostly) but that doesn't mean we should all be

eating (or avoiding) the same foods!

Evie

--- In gallstones , Battaglia <fbattaglia@...>

wrote:

>

> Caution to all of you over these articles that appear on the net

that

> knock soy and soy products. Be thorough in your research - look

for

> supporting claims and closely examine the institutions making the

> claims. It is a fact that The Weston A. Price Foundation has

> connections to the meat and dairy industry and anything they put

> forward should be vetted. Once of the most radical assertions is

that

> there is research that shows that isoflavones found in soy may

cause

> breast cancer. I have researched this claim and have found no

basis

> for this or any others that knock soy.

>

> good luck