Guest guest Posted October 29, 2002 Report Share Posted October 29, 2002 Hi Heleen, Maybe I can fill in some of the space in Kris's reply. Raw milk definitely tastes waaaaaaaaay better than the store stuff, even the organic whole milk, _but_ if it is from a breed of cow that has a very low fat content like a modern Holstein that won't be the case. However, most raw milk comes from Jersey or Brown Swiss or some good breed like that, so it will taste much better. I second Kris's suggestion to check out realmilk.org for health information. As a summary, raw milk has sometimes twice, sometimes more, of the vitamins that get destroyed in pasteurization. Pasteurization also destroys most of the enzymes, including those necessary for digestion of lactose and galactose, and those necessary to assimilate calcium. Most raw milk will contain more fat than regular milk, because coming straight from the cow, none is removed (even " whole " milk has some fat removed). This means it has more of the fat-soluble vitamins like A and D to utilize calcium. If it is grass-fed, as most raw milk is, it will have even (much) higher amounts of vitamin A and other nutrients, including CLA, a cancer-fighting weight loss-stimulating fatty acid. Homogenization destroys CLA and all the essential fatty acids in the milk, and raw milk is not homogenized. Moreover, there is significant evidence that heated milk protein alters the protein so it causes autoimmune disorders like asthma. Whether you cook the raw milk will depend on what you pay for it. My raw milk is significantly cheaper than the organic milk in the store, so it would be silly for me to buy the milk at the store to cook with. Besides, my milk isn't homogenized even when cooked, and it's grass/hay-fed, so it's still superior in health quality when cooked, though cooking is worse than pasteurization for health. However, if you are paying a high price for raw milk as many people do, then the cooking does waste the " rawness " of it, so it would be better to buy the store milk for cost-efficiency. Raw milk lasts between a week and two weeks before it sours. Unlike pasteurized milk, raw milk is 100% safe to drink when it sours, because it still possesses the naturally occuring lactobacillus bacteria that keep out pathogenic bacteria. I had a bottle of milk in my pocket for a few hours the other day, and downed the whole thing before I realized there was a half inch of curds at the bottom. If it were pastuerized, most people probably would have thrown up from drinking curdled milk like that. Raw milk actually settles a little better on the stomach when it is curdling. In fact, I just made cream cheese the other day by letting my milk sit on the counter for four days and straining out the whey! Hope that helps, Chris In a message dated 10/29/02 6:51:27 PM Eastern Standard Time, kris.johnson@... writes: > Have you checked out the info at http://www.realmilk.org/ > I know it may not directly answer your questions, but there is a lot of > info there. If you have a copy of Nourishing Traditions that has good info > in > it, but I suspect you do not have a copy - yet. I'm surprised that the > Weston A Price Foundation website or realmilk.org don't have something that > addresses some of the questions that you have. That seems like a gap in > their coverage. > > > I have some questions. Maybe for you simple to answer. I have some > milkkefir. I make it with ordinary milk bought in the store. Now I found an > adress where I can get some fresh milk, just from the cow (raw milk?)? > > Is that better for your health? > > Definitely, as some of the things at the website above will attest to. > > >Or more tasteful? > > They say so, but I don't have access to it yet, so I can't say for sure. > The > milk I get, which is from a local dairy, pasteurized, but not homogenized > whole milk, is surely better tasting than ordinary milk from the store. > > >How do I use that? Do I have to cook it first? > > Heaven forbid that you should cook it first! that destroys what you bought > raw milk for in the first place. Use if fresh like regular milk or cultured > as kefir, yogurt, etc. > > >How long can you keep it fresh? > > Someone else will have to answer that. But if you keep it around too long > it > becomes nice clabbered milk, doesnt' spoil like process milk. > > >What more can you do with raw milk? Make butter or something else? > > Anything you use regular milk for, except that if you make pudding, for > example, the heat of cooking would destroy some good factors in the milk, > so > don't recommend that. You can make butter, sour cream, ice cream. It would > be helpful if you could get a copy of Nourishing traditions. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 29, 2002 Report Share Posted October 29, 2002 Heleen, Have you checked out the info at http://www.realmilk.org/ I know it may not directly answer your questions, but there is a lot of info there. If you have a copy of Nourishing Traditions that has good info in it, but I suspect you do not have a copy - yet. I'm surprised that the Weston A Price Foundation website or realmilk.org don't have something that addresses some of the questions that you have. That seems like a gap in their coverage. > I have some questions. Maybe for you simple to answer. I have some milkkefir. I make it with ordinary milk bought in the store. Now I found an adress where I can get some fresh milk, just from the cow (raw milk?)? > Is that better for your health? Definitely, as some of the things at the website above will attest to. >Or more tasteful? They say so, but I don't have access to it yet, so I can't say for sure. The milk I get, which is from a local dairy, pasteurized, but not homogenized whole milk, is surely better tasting than ordinary milk from the store. >How do I use that? Do I have to cook it first? Heaven forbid that you should cook it first! that destroys what you bought raw milk for in the first place. Use if fresh like regular milk or cultured as kefir, yogurt, etc. >How long can you keep it fresh? Someone else will have to answer that. But if you keep it around too long it becomes nice clabbered milk, doesnt' spoil like process milk. >What more can you do with raw milk? Make butter or something else? Anything you use regular milk for, except that if you make pudding, for example, the heat of cooking would destroy some good factors in the milk, so don't recommend that. You can make butter, sour cream, ice cream. It would be helpful if you could get a copy of Nourishing traditions. Kris Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 30, 2002 Report Share Posted October 30, 2002 > Raw milk definitely tastes waaaaaaaaay better than the store stuff, even the > organic whole milk, _but_ if it is from a breed of cow that has a very low > fat content like a modern Holstein that won't be the case. We get our raw milk from pastured grass-fed Holsteins and it is still waaaaaaaaay better than organic store bought milk. (and much cheaper) IMHO, raw milk from _any_ breed of grass-fed cow is better than anything in the store. - - Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 30, 2002 Report Share Posted October 30, 2002 In a message dated 10/30/02 3:17:06 PM Eastern Standard Time, paul@... writes: > Is there something specific to look for, like a version number? > ;-) > Were we designing old-fashioned or modern cows back then?? I have no idea. I just heard there was a difference a couple weeks ago :-P My guess is if they produce more than 4% butterfat they must be the old-fashioned ones, but then again, maybe I don't know what I'm talking about ;-) Chris --history major that's never lived on a farm Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 30, 2002 Report Share Posted October 30, 2002 In a message dated 10/30/2002 9:21:05 AM Eastern Standard Time, paul@... writes: > We get our raw milk from pastured grass-fed Holsteins and it is still > waaaaaaaaay better than organic store bought milk. (and much cheaper) > > IMHO, raw milk from _any_ breed of grass-fed cow is better > than anything in > the store. Just curious, are your Holsteins old-fashioned or modern? I heard that " old-fashioned " Holsteins have much higher fat-content than modern. In any case, I'm sure you're right, as unpasteurized olives or honey or anything else always tastes better than the pasteurized version. But I think the higher-fat milks would probably be even better tasting than lower-fat to most people, as the fat gives a very rich flavor. Chris Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 30, 2002 Report Share Posted October 30, 2002 > Just curious, are your Holsteins old-fashioned or modern? I heard that " old-fashioned " Holsteins have much higher fat-content than modern. Hmm, I'll have to ask the guy who boards our cow - I didn't know there was a difference. Is there something specific to look for, like a version number? ;-) I was raised on a Holstein farm and I remember the selecting of bull semen from a catalog, in order for the cows to have a propensity for producing heifers with good traits such as medium sized udders, teat length & placement, straight back legs etc. This was back in the late 70's. Seems like our goal back then was for middle of the road for body size, milk production, butterfat content etc., since we wanted the cow to live a long life, not just kick out 70-80 lbs. of milk a day for a few years. Were we designing old-fashioned or modern cows back then?? - - Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 30, 2002 Report Share Posted October 30, 2002 At 03:25 PM 10/30/02 -0500, you wrote: >> Just curious, are your Holsteins old-fashioned or modern? I heard that > " old-fashioned " Holsteins have much higher fat-content than modern. > >Hmm, I'll have to ask the guy who boards our cow - I didn't know there was a >difference. Is there something specific to look for, like a version number? >;-) > >I was raised on a Holstein farm and I remember the selecting of bull semen >from a catalog, in order for the cows to have a propensity for producing >heifers with good traits such as medium sized udders, teat length & >placement, straight back legs etc. This was back in the late 70's. Seems >like our goal back then was for middle of the road for body size, milk >production, butterfat content etc., since we wanted the cow to live a long >life, not just kick out 70-80 lbs. of milk a day for a few years. > >Were we designing old-fashioned or modern cows back then?? >- You were designing old fashioned cows because you didn't want abused cows or genes, . Our beef grower milks at a relative's Holstein farm. He chooses bull semen for the beef he raises by propensity for bulls and uses the best Holstein mothers. We've had Beefalo, Piedmontese, Belgian Blue and this year Dutch Belted. You'd never know any had a Holstein mom looking at them. Piedmontese is our's and their favorite. Wanita Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 31, 2002 Report Share Posted October 31, 2002 ---If I am remembering correctly a cow does not give the same constant amount of butterfat day in and day out nor yearly either. It's variable and dependent on many factors. Dennis In @y..., ChrisMasterjohn@a... wrote: > In a message dated 10/30/02 3:17:06 PM Eastern Standard Time, > paul@a... writes: > > > > Is there something specific to look for, like a version number? > > ;-) > > Were we designing old-fashioned or modern cows back then?? > > I have no idea. I just heard there was a difference a couple weeks ago :-P > > My guess is if they produce more than 4% butterfat they must be the > old-fashioned ones, but then again, maybe I don't know what I'm talking about > ;-) > > Chris > --history major that's never lived on a farm > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 1, 2002 Report Share Posted November 1, 2002 Hi Heleen, Ideally, the cows should be checked for certain types of illnesses, and I think it's important to know that your source farmer is concerned about the quality of her or his product and not careless. Salmonella and E. Coli are completely harmless bacteria unless they are present in gigantic proportions or are virulent strains produced by anti-biotics. The fact is, if you are drinking raw milk it should be from pastured cows and not grain-fed cows. Salmonella, E. Coli, and other common bacterial infections are associated with grain-fed animals and antibiotic-treated animals, because the grain distubs the normal flora of the digestive system and is conducive to bacterial overgrowths and infections, and the antibiotics are conducive to the evolution of virulent mutant strains of bacteria. Salmonella, by the way, is present in small quantities in ALL foods. Do you want to start pasteurizing all of your vegetables and fruits too? Also, food poisoning is more common in pastuerized milk than raw milk. The milk can get contaminated at any point, and without the naturally occuring lactobacillus bacteria that is destroyed in pasteurization, the contaminating bacteria is even more likely to get a foothold and reproduce. Moreover, pasteurization does not kill B. Cereus spores, e's bacteria, botulism, protozoan parasites and other harmful microrganisms, and some of these are more likely to ferment the milk with no lactobacillus. Raw milk is legal in California, and was illegal for a few years in LA county. They relegalized it after it being shown that California had had LOTS of cases of food poisoning from both pastuerized milk and other food products, but zero, year after year, from the raw milk being legally sold in the health food stores. I'm generally weary about giving any kind of health advice to people with children or health problems, but I am thoroughly convinced that raw milk is 100% safe for your children. There is always a remote possibility of food poisoning with any food. Sometimes these bacteria can be deadly if not treated correctly, or if occuring in the frail elderly or small children. However, this possibility spans from meat to milk to vegetables. It is most common in vegetables, and when it is present in meat, people get it even when their meat is cooked, or overcooked. Canned vegetables are most likely to have it, even though they're pasteurized. But pasteurization is no insurance against it. The best insurance against it are 1) proper care of the food, from healthy animals not living in close confinement eating a proper diet and 2) a healthy gut flora in the individual consuming it. Raw milk from grass-fed cows on open pasture is far safer than milk from grain-fed cows on a farm with 10,000 cows kept in confinement. One week is the _minimum_ that raw milk will keep for. The longest I've ever had milk is a week and a half, and when I had it that long, there was no smell developing. On the other hand, my friend had milk a week and a half once, and it was just barely starting to curdle. When raw milk sours it gets kind of a dough-like or yogurt-like smell to it. Most people probably wouldn't like it, but it is fine to drink. If you want, you could just let it keep souring until it completley curdles and you could strain it into cream cheese. If you are worried about raw milk, I would try not to use any milk at all. Aside from an equal or greater (however remote it is) chance of food poisoning, pasteurized milk has altered proteins that contribute to autoimmune disorders, hard to digest sugars with no enzymes present to help them, etc. If you do go off milk, you should probably make sure to drink some soup from bone stocks several times a day for calcium. By the way, isn't E Coli and Salmonella a fairly recent phenomenon? Chris ____ " What can one say of a soul, of a heart, filled with compassion? It is a heart which burns with love for every creature: for human beings, birds, and animals, for serpents and for demons. The thought of them and the sight of them make the tears of the saint flow. And this immense and intense compassion, which flows from the heart of the saints, makes them unable to bear the sight of the smallest, most insignificant wound in any creature. Thus they pray ceaselessly, with tears, even for animals, for enemies of the truth, and for those who do them wrong. " --Saint Isaac the Syrian Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 1, 2002 Report Share Posted November 1, 2002 Heleen, Your welcome. By the way, if you are culturing the milk, you should feel all the more safer! Peace, Chris In a message dated 11/1/02 4:10:47 PM Eastern Standard Time, htk@... writes: > Thank you for your answer. I understand what you're saying. > Tomorrow I'm going to the farm where I can get the milk. I know now where to > think about. > I have milkkefir and viili and want to use that with raw milk. > Greetings, > ____ " What can one say of a soul, of a heart, filled with compassion? It is a heart which burns with love for every creature: for human beings, birds, and animals, for serpents and for demons. The thought of them and the sight of them make the tears of the saint flow. And this immense and intense compassion, which flows from the heart of the saints, makes them unable to bear the sight of the smallest, most insignificant wound in any creature. Thus they pray ceaselessly, with tears, even for animals, for enemies of the truth, and for those who do them wrong. " --Saint Isaac the Syrian Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 1, 2002 Report Share Posted November 1, 2002 Thanks so far, and Kris, I'm looking for more info on the internet. I still am not sure about the health of raw milk. I have 3 young children. Is it for my children safe to drink? This is what I just read: Raw Milk Raw or unpasteurized milk is milk that comes directly from the dairy animal - cow or goat. It may be surprising but clean raw milk is not necessarily safe milk. You may not actually see any dirt particles or bacteria, but raw milk can still contain disease-producing bacteria. Indeed, hemorrhagic E. coli (0157:H7), Salmonella, Campylobacter, Yersinia and Q fever are but a few of the bacteria found in milk. The diseases which result from these bacteria are not only unpleasant but can be severe enough to be deadly, especially in the very young or old. Many people believe that if they have been drinking raw milk for a long time they will not get sick. However, illness may occur when the milk contains new bacteria or unusually high levels of the organisms normally found in raw milk. (http://www.lambtonhealth.on.ca/food/foods.asp) I also read somewhere that you can keep raw milk good for one week. Is that not to long? One other site I found: http://www.foodsafetynetwork.ca/food/milk.htm Tells more about the risks. I'm going on with my searsch for more information. Greetings, Heleen ----- Original Message ----- From: ChrisMasterjohn@... Sent: Wednesday, October 30, 2002 4:15 AM Subject: Re: milkquestions Hi Heleen, Maybe I can fill in some of the space in Kris's reply. Raw milk definitely tastes waaaaaaaaay better than the store stuff, even the organic whole milk, _but_ if it is from a breed of cow that has a very low fat content like a modern Holstein that won't be the case. However, most raw milk comes from Jersey or Brown Swiss or some good breed like that, so it will taste much better. I second Kris's suggestion to check out realmilk.org for health information. As a summary, raw milk has sometimes twice, sometimes more, of the vitamins that get destroyed in pasteurization. Pasteurization also destroys most of the enzymes, including those necessary for digestion of lactose and galactose, and those necessary to assimilate calcium. Most raw milk will contain more fat than regular milk, because coming straight from the cow, none is removed (even " whole " milk has some fat removed). This means it has more of the fat-soluble vitamins like A and D to utilize calcium. If it is grass-fed, as most raw milk is, it will have even (much) higher amounts of vitamin A and other nutrients, including CLA, a cancer-fighting weight loss-stimulating fatty acid. Homogenization destroys CLA and all the essential fatty acids in the milk, and raw milk is not homogenized. Moreover, there is significant evidence that heated milk protein alters the protein so it causes autoimmune disorders like asthma. Whether you cook the raw milk will depend on what you pay for it. My raw milk is significantly cheaper than the organic milk in the store, so it would be silly for me to buy the milk at the store to cook with. Besides, my milk isn't homogenized even when cooked, and it's grass/hay-fed, so it's still superior in health quality when cooked, though cooking is worse than pasteurization for health. However, if you are paying a high price for raw milk as many people do, then the cooking does waste the " rawness " of it, so it would be better to buy the store milk for cost-efficiency. Raw milk lasts between a week and two weeks before it sours. Unlike pasteurized milk, raw milk is 100% safe to drink when it sours, because it still possesses the naturally occuring lactobacillus bacteria that keep out pathogenic bacteria. I had a bottle of milk in my pocket for a few hours the other day, and downed the whole thing before I realized there was a half inch of curds at the bottom. If it were pastuerized, most people probably would have thrown up from drinking curdled milk like that. Raw milk actually settles a little better on the stomach when it is curdling. In fact, I just made cream cheese the other day by letting my milk sit on the counter for four days and straining out the whey! Hope that helps, Chris In a message dated 10/29/02 6:51:27 PM Eastern Standard Time, kris.johnson@... writes: > Have you checked out the info at http://www.realmilk.org/ > I know it may not directly answer your questions, but there is a lot of > info there. If you have a copy of Nourishing Traditions that has good info > in > it, but I suspect you do not have a copy - yet. I'm surprised that the > Weston A Price Foundation website or realmilk.org don't have something that > addresses some of the questions that you have. That seems like a gap in > their coverage. > > > I have some questions. Maybe for you simple to answer. I have some > milkkefir. I make it with ordinary milk bought in the store. Now I found an > adress where I can get some fresh milk, just from the cow (raw milk?)? > > Is that better for your health? > > Definitely, as some of the things at the website above will attest to. > > >Or more tasteful? > > They say so, but I don't have access to it yet, so I can't say for sure. > The > milk I get, which is from a local dairy, pasteurized, but not homogenized > whole milk, is surely better tasting than ordinary milk from the store. > > >How do I use that? Do I have to cook it first? > > Heaven forbid that you should cook it first! that destroys what you bought > raw milk for in the first place. Use if fresh like regular milk or cultured > as kefir, yogurt, etc. > > >How long can you keep it fresh? > > Someone else will have to answer that. But if you keep it around too long > it > becomes nice clabbered milk, doesnt' spoil like process milk. > > >What more can you do with raw milk? Make butter or something else? > > Anything you use regular milk for, except that if you make pudding, for > example, the heat of cooking would destroy some good factors in the milk, > so > don't recommend that. You can make butter, sour cream, ice cream. It would > be helpful if you could get a copy of Nourishing traditions. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 1, 2002 Report Share Posted November 1, 2002 Hello Thank you for your answer. I understand what you're saying. Tomorrow I'm going to the farm where I can get the milk. I know now where to think about. I have milkkefir and viili and want to use that with raw milk. Greetings, Heleen ----- Original Message ----- From: ChrisMasterjohn@... Sent: Friday, November 01, 2002 9:55 PM Subject: Re: milkquestions Hi Heleen, Ideally, the cows should be checked for certain types of illnesses, and I ...By the way, isn't E Coli and Salmonella a fairly recent phenomenon? Chris Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 2, 2002 Report Share Posted November 2, 2002 >>>>I'm looking for more info on the internet. I still am not sure about the health of raw milk. I have 3 young children. Is it for my children safe to drink? ------------->heleen, chris gave you a great answer already. I'll just add that I drank raw milk as a kid, probably from around 7-9 or 10 years old. it didn't make me sick my state has laws (don't know if they did back then) and the raw milk i get, is tested biweekly. you might want to check and see if your raw milk source is tested - i don't remember where you are - the Netherlands? that might help ease your mind. mine stays fresh about two weeks. also, fwiw, some strains of salmonella and e.coli are normal residents of the human gut - yep, they're swimming around in there, as we speak :-) i think the important thing is to drink cultured milk products (kefir, fil mjolk, etc) and eat fermented foods regularly to maintain a healthy gut ecology. Suze Fisher Lapdog Design, Inc. Web Design & Development http://members.bellatlantic.net/~vze3shjg/ mailto:s.fisher22@... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 2, 2002 Report Share Posted November 2, 2002 Suze, Do you know what the milk is tested for twice weekly? Do you have a web address that lists the health requirements of raw milk? I would like to know what states such as California require. What state are you from? Thanks. Dale Miskimins DVM Elkton, SD Suze Fisher wrote: > >>>>I'm looking for more info on the internet. > I still am not sure about the health of raw milk. I have 3 young children. > Is it for my children safe to drink? > > ------------->heleen, chris gave you a great answer already. I'll just add > that I drank raw milk as a kid, probably from around 7-9 or 10 years > old. it > didn't make me sick my state has laws (don't know if they did back > then) > and the raw milk i get, is tested biweekly. you might want to check > and see > if your raw milk source is tested - i don't remember where you are - the > Netherlands? that might help ease your mind. > > mine stays fresh about two weeks. > > > also, fwiw, some strains of salmonella and e.coli are normal residents of > the human gut - yep, they're swimming around in there, as we speak :-) i > think the important thing is to drink cultured milk products (kefir, fil > mjolk, etc) and eat fermented foods regularly to maintain a healthy gut > ecology. > > > > Suze Fisher > Lapdog Design, Inc. > Web Design & Development > http://members.bellatlantic.net/~vze3shjg/ > <http://members.bellatlantic.net/%7Evze3shjg/> > mailto:s.fisher22@... > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 2, 2002 Report Share Posted November 2, 2002 >>>Suze, Do you know what the milk is tested for twice weekly? Do you have a web address that lists the health requirements of raw milk? I would like to know what states such as California require. What state are you from? Thanks. Dale Miskimins DVM Elkton, SD -------->Dale, I'm in Maine. I don't know what specific strains of bacteria the state tests for. but here's what i found in regard to bacterial *count*: FOOD SAFETY: State and Federal Standards and Regulations, Maine, 1999 " Pasteurization standards The standard plate count of raw milk shall not be more than 50,000 colonies of bacteria per milliliter. The standard plate count of raw cream shall not be more than 50,000 colonies per gram. http://216.239.39.100/search?q=cache:ud5emVZA0tgC:www.nasda-hq.org/nasda/nas da/Foundation/foodsafety/Maine.pdf+maine+state+raw+milk+test & hl=en & ie=UTF-8 Maybe one of the Ca residents on this list can offer information about Ca's regulations. Suze Fisher Lapdog Design, Inc. Web Design & Development http://members.bellatlantic.net/~vze3shjg/ mailto:s.fisher22@... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 6, 2002 Report Share Posted November 6, 2002 This week I've made milkkefir and viili with raw milk but I like the taste of it made with milk from the store a lot better. The kefir and viili is sweeter with milk made with milk from the store. The viili is thinner and the kefir is more curdling with raw milk. The taste is also more watery from the raw milk. What is your experiece? Greetings, Heleen Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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