Re: vitamin b12 revisted

[Guest guest]

Hi Suze:

I don't have much time to read all the links yet or even really think this

one out very much, but I can tell you about my experience with B12.

First of all, I went completely vegan for two years. (Completely raw for

about 4 months.) Anyway, in that time frame I became B12 deficient as was

evidenced by several blood tests. I was not showing any outward symptoms of

B12 deficiency either. (I was already severely anemic because of my

aplastic anemia condition.) Since I was still convinced veganism was the

way, I started taking B12 supplements instead of eating meat. The one I

used and sometimes still use is methylcobalamin (mecobalmin). The one I use

has a website www.enzy.com Those supplements made my blood tests look good

as far a B12 circulating in my blood, but my red blood counts were not

improved at all. Then later, when I learned about Price's studies and

Aajonous's story, I started to slowly incorporate meat back into my diet in

the form of fish. At that point, I eliminated the supplements and just went

with the fish. Well, my B12 test came out really low again, BUT my red

blood count was starting to increase to normal values. (From hemoglobin of

7 to an increase of 11.) I believe that my body was able to utilize the B12

from the fish sources and make blood while the supplements only looked good

on tests. I think it's possible that since I was low in B12, my body was

using it up rapidly where it needed it and the B12 circulating in the blood

was low for that reason. But, since my B12 tests looked low, my doc wanted

to give me B12 shots even though my red blood counts were climbing. So

instead, I take the B12 supplements so that my doc is happy with my B12

level, but I eat meat because I have found that meat is probably the more

usable source for blood production. (At least in my body)

When I was vegan, I did hear talk of feeding pets vegan diets. What a nutty

world we live in, eh? I'm with you as far as science is concerned. I think

they probably miss a lot of things by isolating substances and don't

consider that things have to work together as a whole. They tend to look

for the *active* ingredient, but never mind that there are other chemicals

that probably make those active and/or harmless.

Okay, gotta run!

Marla

----- Original Message -----

From: Suze Fisher <s.fisher22@...>

< >

Sent: Sunday, November 03, 2002 8:53 AM

Subject: vitamin b12 revisted

> hi all,

>

> stupid me got into a debate with some folks who feed a *vegan* diet to

their

> cats and dogs. Yes, *vegan* - no joke. If you think vegans in general are

> intransigent, try debating with vegans who force herbivory onto their

> carnivorous pets

> (and then talk about 'cruelty-free' products. what is 'cruelty-free' about

a

> vegan cat or dog??)

>

> anyway, it's at least spurred me to dig deeper into the b12 issue. i think

i

> mentioned earlier in the discussion that *true* b12 can only be gotten

from

> animal sources. someone responded by saying that science now knows how

> animals synthesize b12 and they 'make' b12 in the lab using the same

> bacteria that animals use to synthesize b12. thus, she said this is

> 'cruelty-free' b12. she then went on to say how easy it often is to

> replicate nutrients in a lab once it's understood how meat animals

> synthesize them. (wish i had that much trust in scientists! <g>) finally,

> she said her vegan dog gets plenty of b12.

>

> well, that may be so, but i have to wonder how bioavailable supplemental

> forms are to canines, and how efficiently any given dog (or cat) can

utilize

> this non-animal source.

>

> from my readings, i gather that cyanocobalamin is the 'synthetic' form

that

> is 'created' in the lab here in the US. (There are two commercial forms of

> B12: cyanocobalamin crystalline, which is available in the United States,

> and hydroxocobalamin crystalline, available in Europe.

> http://www.postgradmed.com/issues/2001/07_01/dharmarajan.htm) Does anyone

> know of any other forms found in supplements that are not animal-derived?

> Also, what happens to the cyanide fraction when the cobalamin is liberated

> from it?

>

> Also, i read that...

> " In foods, hydroxo-, methyl- and 5'-deoxyadenosyl-cobalamins are the main

> cobalamins present. "

>

http://216.239.37.100/search?q=cache:wWjGyKGrtAYC:europa.eu.int/comm/food/fs

> /sc/scf/out80d_en.pdf+animal+derived+b12+cyanocobalamin & hl=en & ie=UTF-8

>

>

> my main question to the group is: how does supplemental b12

(cyanocobalamin

> or hydroxocobalamin) differ from the b12 found in animal flesh (hydroxo-,

> methyl- and 5'-deoxyadenosyl-cobalamins)? how does the bioavailability

> compare between them? And does the body utilize them in the same way? (i

> realize there may be differences in the way dogs, cats and humans utilize

> these various forms, but welcome info on any of these species.)

>

> TIA

>

>

> Suze Fisher

> Lapdog Design, Inc.

> Web Design & Development

> http://members.bellatlantic.net/~vze3shjg/

> mailto:s.fisher22@...

>

[Guest guest]

Suze:

Just wanted to mention that my blood condition has been complicated, and I

don't want to mislead you into thinking that just increasing my B12 was all

I needed to bring up my blood counts. I started out with a good level of

B12 when I was diagnosed with aplastic, and at that time I wasn't vegan. I

was only after a year and a half of changing my diet and lifestyle was the

B12 able to make any noticeable difference. Just something else to

consider.

Marla

[Guest guest]

>>>>>First of all, I went completely vegan for two years. (Completely raw

for

about 4 months.) Anyway, in that time frame I became B12 deficient as was

evidenced by several blood tests. I was not showing any outward symptoms of

B12 deficiency either. (I was already severely anemic because of my

aplastic anemia condition.)

--------->hi marla, thanks for sharing your story. I do remember that you

were (are?) battling anemia. was the aplastic anemia in any way related to

the b12 deficiency?

>>>>Since I was still convinced veganism was the

way, I started taking B12 supplements instead of eating meat. The one I

used and sometimes still use is methylcobalamin (mecobalmin). The one I use

has a website www.enzy.com Those supplements made my blood tests look good

as far a B12 circulating in my blood, but my red blood counts were not

improved at all.

-------->i looked up the b12 supplement listed on the site (bio-active b12)

and it says it's methylcobalamin and that it's vegetarian. That seems to

contradict what I've found so far on b12, but maybe it's correct and i just

wasn't able to locate the right info. my understanding is that

methylcobalamin is derived from animal sources, so it wouldn't be

vegetarian, as this site claims. (does anyone know if there's such a thing

as *vegetarian* methylcobalamin?)

>>>>Then later, when I learned about Price's studies and

Aajonous's story, I started to slowly incorporate meat back into my diet in

the form of fish. At that point, I eliminated the supplements and just went

with the fish. Well, my B12 test came out really low again, BUT my red

blood count was starting to increase to normal values. (From hemoglobin of

7 to an increase of 11.) I believe that my body was able to utilize the B12

from the fish sources and make blood while the supplements only looked good

on tests.

---------->if that's what was going on, then it's pretty scary. did you have

elevated MMA and homocysteine levels, by chance?

>>>>>When I was vegan, I did hear talk of feeding pets vegan diets. What a

nutty

world we live in, eh? I'm with you as far as science is concerned. I think

they probably miss a lot of things by isolating substances and don't

consider that things have to work together as a whole.

---------->precisely. add to that the question of how many nutrients,

co-factors and essential interactions we haven't yet discovered...

Suze Fisher

Lapdog Design, Inc.

Web Design & Development

http://members.bellatlantic.net/~vze3shjg/

mailto:s.fisher22@...

[Guest guest]

> I'm with you as far as science is concerned.

I think> they probably miss a lot of things by isolating substances

and don't> consider that things have to work together as a whole.

>

> ---------->precisely. add to that the question of how many

nutrients,> co-factors and essential interactions we haven't yet

discovered...

>

>

I don't see how science can work any other way though. You kind of

have to isolate things, otherwise you don't have any real idea of

what's going on. Maybe the problem is that we want to be able to use

the info for health as soon as possible, and so it gets turned into

practical treatments before the whole picture is known. I guess

there's a downside there, but then there's the chance of failing to

help people with what info you have at any given time... can you

afford to take the chance of telling them to wait ten twenty years?

I don't think it's a simple question. the problewm is when the

available info gets turned into dogma by committees etc.

[Guest guest]

responding to self :-)

i wrote:

" i looked up the b12 supplement listed on the site (bio-active b12)

and it says it's methylcobalamin and that it's vegetarian. That seems to

contradict what I've found so far on b12, but maybe it's correct and i just

wasn't able to locate the right info. my understanding is that

methylcobalamin is derived from animal sources, so it wouldn't be

vegetarian, as this site claims. (does anyone know if there's such a thing

as *vegetarian* methylcobalamin?) "

This site (Hallelujah Acres: the biblical natural diet) says:

Bio-Active B-12 " is made from fermented plants and is an inexpensive,

vegetarian product.

http://216.239.39.100/search?q=cache:GkTjofSwI-oC:www.hacres.org/articles.as

p%3Fartid%3D105+vegetarian+methylcobalamin & hl=en & ie=UTF-8

?????fermented plants? vegetarian b12? hmmmm...however, what i don't

understand is that animal sources contain methylcobalamin (in tissue and

plasma, i believe), and methylcobalamin is methylcobalamin, right? is

hallelujah acres providing accurate info here, or am i misunderstanding

something? (i saw a number of other sites advertising *vegetarian*

methylcobalamin as well.) can anyone shed light on this?

Suze Fisher

Lapdog Design, Inc.

Web Design & Development

http://members.bellatlantic.net/~vze3shjg/

mailto:s.fisher22@...

[Guest guest]

> I'm with you as far as science is concerned.

I think> they probably miss a lot of things by isolating substances

and don't> consider that things have to work together as a whole.

>

> ---------->precisely. add to that the question of how many

nutrients,> co-factors and essential interactions we haven't yet

discovered...

>>>>>>>I don't see how science can work any other way though. You kind of

have to isolate things, otherwise you don't have any real idea of

what's going on.

-------->martha, i'm not complaining that that's the way science works,

rather that some folks are just assuming all is known that needs to be known

about their dogs' or cats' nutrient requirements, therefore they think they

can simply replace the natural diet of a carnivore with an herbivorous diet

along with some synthetic supplements, and their animals will be just fine

(because some scientists have got it all figured out for them). from my

perspective, this is blind faith in science while turning one's back on

nature completely. i understand that forcing dogs and cats to be herbivores

is probably much more of an ethical decision (ironic as it may sound) than

one based on the science of nutrition, though.

Suze Fisher

Lapdog Design, Inc.

Web Design & Development

http://members.bellatlantic.net/~vze3shjg/

mailto:s.fisher22@...

[Guest guest]

> some folks are just assuming all is known that needs to

be known> about their dogs' or cats' nutrient requirements, therefore

they think they> can simply replace the natural diet of a carnivore

with an herbivorous diet> along with some synthetic supplements, and

their animals will be just fine> (because some scientists have got it

all figured out for them).

Oh, there's an article in the J Nutrition this summer that is a good

example for that argument. It's the Waltham symposium one and it's

full of papers on animals (some look pretty lame). One paper

talks about black cats having their fur fade to a reddish color on a

certain diet. It turns out that this diet was designed to be more

than adequate in amino acid content according to the NRC requirements

for cats. But when they used gelatin as a base instead of casein, the

cats' fur grew in aa different color. This could be corrected with

additional tyrosine in the diet. This diet was designed to be

nutritionally adequate; the pigment change was not part of the

original experiment. The paper didn't explain what exactly was

causing this unexpected result. (The cats seemed healthy otherwise,

except that they weren't producing as much pigment - but who knows,

since tryosine is also used for neurotransmitters.)

[Guest guest]

Hi Suze:

> --------->hi marla, thanks for sharing your story. I do remember that you

> were (are?) battling anemia. was the aplastic anemia in any way related to

> the b12 deficiency?

>

### I don't think so. When I was first diagnosed, my B12 level was within

normal range, and I wasn't vegetarian either. BTW, my aplastic is very much

under control now. Reds and whites hitting normal values, still low on

platelets but very functional.

> ---------->if that's what was going on, then it's pretty scary. did you

have

> elevated MMA and homocysteine levels, by chance?

### My homocysteine levels were good--within normal parameters. What is

MMA? My folate was high--37 while normal is between 2-20. That's after

being vegan for two years, I don't know what those levels were at diagnosis,

only recent tests.

Marla