Re: lemon soaked liver

[Guest guest]

Hi Suze,

I don't know how long it lasts because I always cook mine, and eat the

leftovers over the week, but I wonder what the lemon juice will do to it over

long periods of time. It seems that after a couple hours it almost sort of

" cooks " it, in that the color starts turning in the outside from reddish to a

gray, cooked color, and it certainly tenderizes it and whatnot. I wonder

what will happen if that process is allowed to continue over several days. I

also wonder, as an aside, whether anything is happening to the proteins that

decrease the " raw " value of it. (If anyone knows please chirp in).

So anyway, I'd be interested to hear the progress of how your liver looks,

feels, tastes, after sitting in the lemon juice for so long, if you wouldn't

mind giving an update.

Chris

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 11/14/02 4:21:14 PM Eastern Standard Time,

darkstar@... writes:

> The secondary etc. structure of proteins is partly influenced by H+

> bonds which will be affected by pH. So the acid will denature

> proteins to a certain extent, depending on the protein and the pH.

> Same with high salt. They may lose their shape and function, maybe

> irreversibly, again depending on he individual protein, pH etc.

> Heat also affects the H+ bonds and denatures proteins so some overlap

> with cooking, although I wouldn't call it the same (especially for

> higher temps.)

>

Darkstar (Martha, right?),

Are you on an all-raw diet? If so, do you consider lacto-fermenting,

marinading in acidic solutions, and other such processes, to be a violation

of the all-raw diet? Do you consider raw foods that haven't come into

contact with acids to be superior in health value? Do such things denature

all protein equally, or are enzymes left in tact while other structural

proteins are damaged, etc?

Thank you for any help,

Chris

[Guest guest]

>I > also wonder, as an aside, whether anything is happening to the

proteins that > decrease the " raw " value of it. (If anyone knows

please chirp in).

>

The secondary etc. structure of proteins is partly influenced by H+

bonds which will be affected by pH. So the acid will denature

proteins to a certain extent, depending on the protein and the pH.

Same with high salt. They may lose their shape and function, maybe

irreversibly, again depending on he individual protein, pH etc.

Heat also affects the H+ bonds and denatures proteins so some overlap

with cooking, although I wouldn't call it the same (especially for

higher temps.)

[Guest guest]

>I > also wonder, as an aside, whether anything is happening to the

proteins that > decrease the " raw " value of it. (If anyone knows

please chirp in).

>

The secondary etc. structure of proteins is partly influenced by H+

bonds which will be affected by pH. So the acid will denature

proteins to a certain extent, depending on the protein and the pH.

---------->martha, can you tell me what you mean by " denature " ? what

specifically happens during 'denaturing?'

Same with high salt. They may lose their shape and function, maybe

irreversibly, again depending on he individual protein, pH etc.

Heat also affects the H+ bonds and denatures proteins so some overlap

with cooking, although I wouldn't call it the same (especially for

higher temps.)

------->heat also affects heat-labile vitamins, but i don't imagine that

lemon juice has the same affect? so, aside from the proteins, wouldn't there

be components that are more intact in the lemon soaked raw liver as opposed

to cooked liver?

Funny, i used to soak my dogs' raw meat/organs/bone in ACV. I'd just defrost

a big batch, pour some raw ACV on, and take out portions throughout the

week. i never felt like i was 'cooking' their raw food. I thought the ACV

would mainly 'pre-digest' it to some extent in the way that stomach acid

helps prepare proteins and fats for digestion in the small intestine.

in regards to chris' question:

<<also wonder, as an aside, whether anything is happening to the

proteins that > decrease the " raw " value of it. >>

----->i don't know, but lemon juice and stomach acid (in healthy humans) is

about the same pH - around 2-3 (also might depend on what's eaten). So if

lemon juice *decreases* the value of raw liver, then so to would stomach

acid, based in terms of pH. however, maybe the lemon juice could decrease

the value of it *over time..?* hopefully, it won't be sitting *in my

stomach* for a week!

Suze Fisher

Lapdog Design, Inc.

Web Design & Development

http://members.bellatlantic.net/~vze3shjg/

mailto:s.fisher22@...

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 11/14/02 11:18:57 PM Eastern Standard Time,

s.fisher22@... writes:

> " denature " *sounds*

> like a bad thing, but it's not necessarily so, as far as i understand it,

> and actually may *increase* digestibility. in fact, isn't

> protein*digestion*

> itself a process of 'denaturing' proteins?

Well, something in raw animal foods increases digestibility over cooked. I

would have thought that it's proteins (enzymes) retaining their " function. "

Lacto-fermenting and marinading seems to increase the digestibility of

everything, but cooking certainly doesn't, only in certain foods, an in my

experience, invariably _not_ in animal foods.

And something in raw meat is giving lots of people lots of energy, and has

been helping my immune system a lot, as someone else on this list also

mentions.

If all the enzymes are destroyed as Martha suspects and if denaturing the

proteins is better, not worse, than I'm at a loss to explain the increased

energy and immune system support from raw animal foods.

Not that I would know better, just that there must be _something_ to explain

it.

Chris

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 11/14/02 11:51:35 PM Eastern Standard Time,

dkemnitz2000@... writes:

> And when I GOT to that

> land grant institution I Got the answer. Dennis

>

Just curious what institution that is. UMass Amherst is a land grant

institution, where I'm at. I wish I majored in biochem instead of history

;-)

Chris

[Guest guest]

>

> ---------->martha, can you tell me what you mean by " denature " ? what

> specifically happens during 'denaturing?'

>

Here's definition from Molec Bio of Cell -

denaturation: dramatic change in conformation of a protein or nucleic

acid caused by heating or by exposure to chemicals and usually

resulting in loss of biological function.

[Guest guest]

---Martha, enzymes probably denature, generally speaking, from heat

and acidification too, right? Even making yogurt with L. acidophilus

will cause the milk proteins and enzymes, most likely, to denature.

In @y..., " darkstardog " <darkstar@p...> wrote:

>

> >

> > ---------->martha, can you tell me what you mean by " denature " ?

what

> > specifically happens during 'denaturing?'

> >

> Here's definition from Molec Bio of Cell -

> denaturation: dramatic change in conformation of a protein or

nucleic

> acid caused by heating or by exposure to chemicals and usually

> resulting in loss of biological function.

[Guest guest]

> --- In @y..., " Suze Fisher " <s.fisher22@v...>

wrote:

> > > > ---------->martha, can you tell me what you mean by

" denature " ? what> > specifically happens during 'denaturing?'

> >

From ancient edition of Biochemistry text (Lehninger):

Denaturation:

Most protein molecules retain their biological activity or capacity

to function only within a very limited range of temperatures and pH.

Exposure of protein molecules to extremes of pH or temperature causes

them to undergo a change known as denaturation, in which the msot

visible effect in globular proteins is a decrease in solubility. Most

proteins undergo denaturation when heated over 50 to 60 degrees C;

some also denature when cooled below 10 to 15 degrees C. the

formation of an insoluble white coagulum during the heating of egg

white is a good example of denaturation.

Denaturation also causes proteins to lose their characteristic

biological activity. For example, when enzymes are heated their

ability to catalyze a specific biological reaction is ususally lost.

Since the covalent bonds in the peptide backbone of proteins are not

broken during denaturation, it has been concluded that denaturation

is due to the unfolding of the characterisitc folded structure of the

polypeptide chain in the native protein molecule. In the denaturaed

state, teh polypeptide chains are randomly and irregularly looped or

coiled and the conformation of any given chain may change with time.

....

(renaturation: returning protein to original conditions of temp and

pH may return it to previous configuration with return of function.

But not necessarily. Also,

" For this reason, the renaturation of many proteins gives the

appearance of being irreversible, because refolding to the native

state is often a very slow process. " depends on the native

structure.)

[Guest guest]

> Are you on an all-raw diet? If so, do you consider

> lacto-fermenting, > marinading in acidic solutions, and other such

> processes, to be a violation > of the all-raw diet?

I'm not on a raw food diet and I'm ignorant of how raw food people

would think about the question, so I can't help.

> Do you consider raw foods that haven't come into contact with >

> acids to be superior in health value?

As Suze said, the foods are going to come into contact with stomach

acid anyway, which may be even more acidic than lemon juice or

vinegar. So I don't don't think it makes a difference. But I don't

have a good answer.

> Do such things denature > all protein equally, or are enzymes left

> intact while other structural proteins are damaged, etc?

I'd guess that enzymes were more vulnerable. But again it depends on

the specific protein. Obviously the pepsin enzyme is functional at

the low stomach pH. And as far as heat goes, there are bacteria that

live in the steam vents at the bottom of the ocean and some of those

enzymes can function almost to boiling if I understand correctly.

I think most enzymes would be denatured, but I think I've read that

some like amylase can renature in neutral pH in the intestine. (Not

sure about that; I don't think I read it in a reliable source.) But I

think I've read that most enzymes in food are denatured irreversibly

in the stomach. (Again, not positive.)

(As I've said before in various places, so far I'm not a believer in

the importance of enzymes in raw food; although they may do some

digestion in the stomach before they are exposed to too low a

concentration of acid, I have yet to see any good evidence for how

much digestion they actually do or whether there are any health

benefits. (This doesn't mean there aren't any.)

AS for other ingredients in foods like vitamins, that Suze brought up

- I don't know - I was just responding to the point about the

proteins.

[Guest guest]

> - I don't know - I was just responding to the point about the

> proteins.

Goodness, that was a post full of negativity and uncertainty. Just

the way I feel today.

[Guest guest]

--- Martha I hope tomorrow is more wonderful for you. I sure enjoy

your chemistry input. Dennis

In @y..., " darkstardog " <darkstar@p...> wrote:

>

> > - I don't know - I was just responding to the point about the

> > proteins.

>

> Goodness, that was a post full of negativity and uncertainty. Just

> the way I feel today.

[Guest guest]

>>>>Here's definition from Molec Bio of Cell -

denaturation: dramatic change in conformation of a protein or nucleic

acid caused by heating or by exposure to chemicals and usually

resulting in loss of biological function.

>>>>>From ancient edition of Biochemistry text (Lehninger):

Denaturation also causes proteins to lose their characteristic

biological activity. For example, when enzymes are heated their

ability to catalyze a specific biological reaction is ususally lost.

Since the covalent bonds in the peptide backbone of proteins are not

broken during denaturation, it has been concluded that denaturation

is due to the unfolding of the characterisitc folded structure of the

polypeptide chain in the native protein molecule. In the denaturaed

state, teh polypeptide chains are randomly and irregularly looped or

coiled and the conformation of any given chain may change with time.

----------->martha, thanks for looking those up :-)

this is what I understand from this; extremes in pH (as well as heat)

UNfolds polypeptide chains. the protein cannot carry out it's function when

it's unfolded.

i checked molec. biology of the cell, and on page 489 they discuss

denaturing proteins with detergents for *study* purposes. and they mention

the loss of function. Since i'm not *studying* the protein in my liver (just

eating it), I'm not sure if need it to carry out any functions? After an

animal dies, do the proteins in it's tissue continue to *function* in some

way?

OK, now applying the above descriptions to the *digestibility* of raw liver

soaked in lemon juice, I'm thinking it would improve digestibility because

the polypeptides are unfolding and that would increase surface area for

digestive enzymes (including pepsin in the stomach) to work on. right? I

don't see where the acidic pH of lemon juice would do anything *harmful* to

the proteins (unless i'm not understanding this well). " denature " *sounds*

like a bad thing, but it's not necessarily so, as far as i understand it,

and actually may *increase* digestibility. in fact, isn't protein*digestion*

itself a process of 'denaturing' proteins?

Relatedly, I've also read that HCl softens connective tissue. that's what

marinades do as well, and my lemon soaked liver is certainly much softer

than it was prior to soaking. If I'm not misunderstanding what denaturing

is, then this all suggests that lemon soaked raw liver would be easier to

digest than plain ol' raw liver..?

(interestingly, NT recommends soaking liver in lemon juice before

cooking -*double* denaturing! LOL)

p.s. i think one of the biggest benefits of raw over *cooked* is the lipids,

especially anything with a relatively high PUFA content.

p.p.s. i wonder if meat/organs have 'self' digesting enzymes like *raw* milk

has lactase (and pasteurized doesn't) and some sourdough yeasts contain

*phytase* that digest phytate in the flour? Do most foods contain

self-digestiong enzymes?

darnit! one question begets 20. <g>

Suze Fisher

Lapdog Design, Inc.

Web Design & Development

http://members.bellatlantic.net/~vze3shjg/

mailto:s.fisher22@...

[Guest guest]

>>>>>I'd guess that enzymes were more vulnerable. But again it depends on

the specific protein. Obviously the pepsin enzyme is functional at

the low stomach pH.

------->hmmmm...that's a good point. i've also read that a pH of 1.5-2 is

*required* for converting pepsinogen to pepsin (in the stomach).

>>>>I think most enzymes would be denatured, but I think I've read that

some like amylase can renature in neutral pH in the intestine. (Not

sure about that; I don't think I read it in a reliable source.)

---------------->yes, I've read it too. That means that salivary amylase is

temporarily 'neutralized' while in the stomach, then 're-activated' when it

gets to the duodenum. i've read that different enzymes require specific pHs

in order to function, so from that perspective, it would make sense. OTOH,

i'm not sure why it would be necessary to 're-activate' since pancreatic

amylase is brought into the intestines to digest carbs. i don't know enough

about the specifics of what goes on in the duodenum to know if the

're-activation' makes sense or not. though.

Suze Fisher

Lapdog Design, Inc.

Web Design & Development

http://members.bellatlantic.net/~vze3shjg/

mailto:s.fisher22@...

[Guest guest]

---How about some humor, Martha? Check out message 13240 at

groups/group/pasturepoultry/messages. It's a chicken and

egg story and it's not about nor did it happen to Dorothy. Dennis

In @y..., " darkstardog " <darkstar@p...> wrote:

>

> > - I don't know - I was just responding to the point about the

> > proteins.

>

> Goodness, that was a post full of negativity and uncertainty. Just

> the way I feel today.

[Guest guest]

---I wrote once or more about biochemical reactions undertaking many

steps to get to the end product and their reversibility

(kinetics,etc). And biochem is even more aewsome(complex!). So

those intermediates may be beneficial or may be empty

calories so to speak, in some ways like phytates are spoken of by NT

folks. Biochemistry seems to me an exciting and interesting field

but I only made it thru general bio. (like one 5 or 4 hour course).

Too late to study that complicated stuff nowadays so anyway that's my

update. Denis

In @y..., ChrisMasterjohn@a... wrote:

> In a message dated 11/14/02 11:18:57 PM Eastern Standard Time,

> s.fisher22@v... writes:

>

>

> > " denature " *sounds*

> > like a bad thing, but it's not necessarily so, as far as i

understand it,

> > and actually may *increase* digestibility. in fact, isn't

> > protein*digestion*

> > itself a process of 'denaturing' proteins?

>

> Well, something in raw animal foods increases digestibility over

cooked. I

> would have thought that it's proteins (enzymes) retaining

their " function. "

> Lacto-fermenting and marinading seems to increase the digestibility

of

> everything, but cooking certainly doesn't, only in certain foods,

an in my

> experience, invariably _not_ in animal foods.

>

> And something in raw meat is giving lots of people lots of energy,

and has

> been helping my immune system a lot, as someone else on this list

also

> mentions.

>

> If all the enzymes are destroyed as Martha suspects and if

denaturing the

> proteins is better, not worse, than I'm at a loss to explain the

increased

> energy and immune system support from raw animal foods.

>

> Not that I would know better, just that there must be _something_

to explain

> it.

>

> Chris

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

--- By def'n when a protein reaches it's isoelectric point it

precipitates(turns into a solid). There's probably exceptions BUT

anyway. I remember this because I always (not totally) wondered what

made an egg harden when cooked on the stove. And when I GOT to that

land grant institution I Got the answer. Dennis

In @y..., " dkemnitz2000 " <dkemnitz2000@y...> wrote:

> ---I wrote once or more about biochemical reactions undertaking

many

> steps to get to the end product and their reversibility

> (> > <><><><<><><><><><><><<<>clipped by Dennis<><<><<><<>

> > > " denature " *sounds*

> > > like a bad thing, but it's not necessarily so, as far as i

> understand it,

> > > and actually may *increase* digestibility. in fact, isn't

> > > protein*digestion*

> > > itself a process of 'denaturing' proteins?

> >

>

[Guest guest]

--- By def'n when a protein reaches it's isoelectric point it

precipitates(turns into a solid). There's probably exceptions BUT

anyway. I remember this because I always (not totally) wondered what

made an egg harden when cooked on the stove. And when I GOT to that

land grant institution I Got the answer. Dennis

In @y..., " dkemnitz2000 " <dkemnitz2000@y...> wrote:

> ---I wrote once or more about biochemical reactions undertaking

many

> steps to get to the end product and their reversibility

> (> > <><><><<><><><><><><><<<>clipped by Dennis<><<><<><<>

> > > " denature " *sounds*

> > > like a bad thing, but it's not necessarily so, as far as i

> understand it,

> > > and actually may *increase* digestibility. in fact, isn't

> > > protein*digestion*

> > > itself a process of 'denaturing' proteins?

> >

>

[Guest guest]

---If you can remember all those dates(history) you would be a

natural at biochemistry. Really, there's lots of memorization in the

entry chemistry classes. Have you had chemistry, even a little bit.

I graduated at Kansas State 10 years after graduating h.s. class.

I'm a Kansas State Wildcat! I took time out after high school to see

the world and to get the GI bill. Had to get out of KS, for a while

anyway. Any other questions feel free to write. Dennis

In @y..., ChrisMasterjohn@a... wrote:

> In a message dated 11/14/02 11:51:35 PM Eastern Standard Time,

> dkemnitz2000@y... writes:

>

>

> > And when I GOT to that

> > land grant institution I Got the answer. Dennis

> >

>

> Just curious what institution that is. UMass Amherst is a land

grant

> institution, where I'm at. I wish I majored in biochem instead of

history

> ;-)

>

> Chris

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

>>

> ---------------->yes, I've read it too. That means that salivary

amylase is> temporarily 'neutralized' while in the stomach, then

're-activated' when it> gets to the duodenum. i've read that

different enzymes require specific pHs

> in order to function, so from that perspective, it would make

sense. OTOH,> i'm not sure why it would be necessary to 're-activate'

since pancreatic> amylase is brought into the intestines to digest

carbs. i don't know enough> about the specifics of what goes on in

the duodenum to know if the> 're-activation' makes sense or not.

though.

>

It's not that the body is taking a specific action to reactivate or

renature the salivary amylase. If it happened, it would happen

automatically as a result of the return to a neutral pH. The molecule

would tend to automatically refold into its most stable formation at

that pH.

The trouble is, with a complex molecule it might be hard to get back

to that point. It's kind of like a jacket with lots of velcro

fasteners - you don't want the neck velcro stuck to the waist

velcro. Some molecules have helper molecules that help to fold them

into shape as they are being formed initially (chaperones?).

[Guest guest]

--- In @y..., " dkemnitz2000 " <dkemnitz2000@y...>

wrote:

> --- Martha I hope tomorrow is more wonderful for you. I sure enjoy

> your chemistry input. Dennis

>

Thanks, Dennis!

[Guest guest]

>

> After an> animal dies, do the proteins in it's tissue continue to

*function* in some> way?

Yes, I think some proteases (not all) are able to function, depending

on temp, pH and Ca++ levels - ageing of meats and the relaxing of

rigor mortis, for example. (Enzymes requiring energy, structural

integrity of the cell, etc, would not.) How much digestion actually

goes on in the stomach (37 degrees) before the food is made too

acidic - that I don't know.

>

> OK, now applying the above descriptions to the *digestibility* of

raw liver> soaked in lemon juice, I'm thinking it would improve

digestibility because> the polypeptides are unfolding and that would

increase surface area for> digestive enzymes (including pepsin in the

stomach) to work on.

Seems like yes and no - maybe some areas more accessible, others less

if some of the proteins clump up - I'm out of my depth.

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 11/15/02 12:23:00 AM Eastern Standard Time,

dkemnitz2000@... writes:

> ---If you can remember all those dates(history) you would be a

> natural at biochemistry. Really, there's lots of memorization in the

> entry chemistry classes. Have you had chemistry, even a little bit.

> I graduated at Kansas State 10 years after graduating h.s. class.

> I'm a Kansas State Wildcat! I took time out after high school to see

> the world and to get the GI bill. Had to get out of KS, for a while

> anyway. Any other questions feel free to write.

I've never taken an official chem class. I did have a love for the biochem

section of biology when I took it, and I must have had a knack for it or

something because my teacher and the head tutor were begging me to take

biochem, for whatever reason. It was funny, I was tutoring that class at the

same time I was taking it. I've always been into science, but I took history

because back when I was an anarchist I thought being a social studies teacher

was the best way I could make my personal contribution to the revolution.

I'm not sure what I'm going to do now. I was toying with the idea of taking

pre-med classes and try to get into med school, picking up a second major in

biochem, and some other ideas, but I don't know if it's worth it. I think I

just want to move to Maine or Vermont, buy a big hunk of land, and start

farming it. My experience with college is that it's mostly a waste of time.

If I were an english major I'd have valued having peer critique, writing

workshops, etc, but you don't need college for those. If I were a science

major I'd have valued having easy access to laboratories, but yeah, labs are

fun, but I don't know if I want to spend another two years worth of time and

money just to spend a few weeks in one-- I could just pick up a biochem book

and read it.

Ahh, well, I have plenty of time.

Chris

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 11/15/02 7:55:31 AM Eastern Standard Time,

s.fisher22@... writes:

> (as an interesting aside, they mention that casein is highly resistant to

> heat denaturing.)

>

That's interesting because of the charges that pasterization causes

protein-shape changes that contribute to autoimmune disorders. Then again,

what is, in relativity, " high resistance " ? Meat usually gets heated to

170-180, and I'm sure the denaturation takes place before that, so casein

might have particularly high resistance but maybe that has no value in

practicality... or maybe it does.

> after all this, i'm still not sure if soaking my liver in lemon has a net

> positive or negative effect on it. LOL but i *am* sure that it's a heck of

> a

> lot more palitable after it's been swimming in lemon juice! (even more so

> than *cooked* liver, imo.)

Lol, I'll have to try it some time. Lemon juice sure does help out even

cooking it though.

Chris

[Guest guest]

>>>>If all the enzymes are destroyed as Martha suspects and if denaturing

the

proteins is better, not worse, than I'm at a loss to explain the increased

energy and immune system support from raw animal foods.

--------->well, two ways that *raw* animal foods are probably healthier

than cooked, is that the fats are *not* exposed to heat (and thus less prone

to oxidation) and the heat-labile vits are not destroyed by heat. so

theoretically you're getting less damaged fats and more vits.

Here's a lecture on protein denaturation from Ohio State Food Science dept:

http://class.fst.ohio-state.edu/FST605/lectures/Lect11.html

This goes pretty indepth in regards to the different forms of denaturing

proteins. Here's an excerpt re: *pH* denaturing (there's a different section

on *thermal* denaturing):

<<If the pH is lowered far below the isoelectric point, the protein will

lose its negative and contain only positive charges. The like charges will

repel each other and prevent the protein from aggregating as readily. In

areas of large charge density, the intramolecular repulsion may be great

enough to cause unfolding of the protein. This will have an effect similar

to that of mild heat treatment on the protein structure. In some cases the

unfolding may be extensive enough to expose hydrophobic groups and cause

irreversible aggregation. Until this occurs such unfolding will be largely

reversible.>>

<<Some proteins contain acid labile groups and even relatively mild acid

treatment may cause irreversible loss of function. This generally results

from the breaking of specific covalent bonds and thus should be considered

separately from denaturation. Exposure to strong enough acid at elevated

temperatures will first release amide nitrogen from glutamine and asparagine

groups and eventually lead to hydrolysis of peptide bonds.>>

---->so, it seems they're saying that low pH has a similar effect on protein

as 'mild' heat. but, they go on to say that acid may cause hydrolyis of

peptide bonds, which is a kind of 'pre-digestion' as far as i understand it.

The main concern with denaturing protein, that i got from this lecture, is

the loss of solubility (which would make it less digestible i *think*). They

described how *heat* can decrease solubility of protein, but i didn't see

mention of acid pH causing loss of solubility.

(as an interesting aside, they mention that casein is highly resistant to

heat denaturing.)

after all this, i'm still not sure if soaking my liver in lemon has a net

positive or negative effect on it. LOL but i *am* sure that it's a heck of a

lot more palitable after it's been swimming in lemon juice! (even more so

than *cooked* liver, imo.)

Suze Fisher

Lapdog Design, Inc.

Web Design & Development

http://members.bellatlantic.net/~vze3shjg/

mailto:s.fisher22@...