Re: advice on email list results in woman's death

[Guest guest]

Wow.

How heart-wrenching. The whole situation smacks of cultism. That the person

wouldn't go see a doctor writhing in pain on her death bed, that " hawk "

insisted it was " physiologically impossible " for her appendix to burst when

informed it just happened and the women died, that the doctor just posted

another article insisting people follow the same death-giving advise. Those

are the marks of a cult.

I think the advise to " listen to your body " probably transcends every other

piece of nutritional advise out there. What a shame :'-(

Chris

[Guest guest]

Ugh. I just read the doctor's reply. Did you notice how he put the woman's

name in quotation marks at the beginning of the article?

" There is now being publicly discussed on the Internet on various

messageboards, information about a woman " Caroline " who died because she

waterfasted for her appendicitis. It is being contended that she needlessly

died apainful death because she refused orthodox medical care that could have

savedher life. "

It's as if it's a subtle isinuation that she's not real or that her situation

is not real, that her death must be fictitious sense it violates the logic of

his medical theory.

Nauseating is right.

Chris

[Guest guest]

Wow, that was pretty powerful and horrific.

Elaine

[Guest guest]

> Wow.

>

> How heart-wrenching. The whole situation smacks of cultism.

I don't see it as any different from fringe Christian cultists who

refuse to give proper medical care to their children, and the

children end up dying from easily treatable diseases like diabetes.

As much as modern medicine has become an abusive, self-serving

industry, it still has its value. Modern medicine's biggest strength

is the ability to treat bodily trauma, and that woman's appendix

would likely have been easily treated. I shudder to think what would

have happened to a friend of mine had she opted to writhe in pain for

a week instead of having an emergency appendectomy.

And, that whole fruitarian diet strikes me as completely unnatural.

Nature is cyclical, and without the intervention of modern shipping

methods, people would not have access to large amounts and varieties

of fruit all year round. IMO, a natural diet should include a wide

variety of foods.

Right now there is yet another multi-level marketing/diet " cult " that

has become hugely popular in town. It's that alkalarian diet where

people walk around carrying plastic bottles of water mixed with green

grass juice powder from a factory. I've browsed the guy's book, and

I've found a lot of BS in it. For example, he says that bodies get

fat because the cells are trying to get rid of acid. What nonsense!

People get fat because they consume more calories than they burn,

particularly carbohydrates that are efficiently stored as fat due to

the insulin response. Check out the FAQ from the website of one of

the locals:

http://www.alkalineenergydiet.com/section/9

Didja notice the outright lies about the cause of Dr. Atkins heart

attack? Or how about the utterly ridiculous " animal genocide for

nourishment " (genocide dosn't refer to animals, but even if it did,

genocide would still not apply because growing animals for food is

not a process of wiping out those species). Too much extremism, wacko

dogma, and disinformation for my taste.

Ok, rant over. Sorry.

[Guest guest]

I wasn't planning on posting today due to time constraints but thank

you for posting this... due to the nature of the content and

considering that I often give advice via the internet I'd like to

make a few comments...

A) Never take advice from anyone in person, on the internet, over

the phone, in a car, at a funeral, etc... you get the idea for an

emergency medical condition. As heartless as this sounds the fault

here lies 100% in my opinion with the woman who failed to provide

herself with the appropriate care. She has been raise in a world

and culture that at some point becomes unanimous in what to for

acute appendicitis. I say this not to place blame but to illustrate

the NEED for each of us regardless of our " medical " expertise to be

fully responsible and accountable for our health and the actions

impacting our health. She made a most obvious WRONG choice here.

The sentiment the poster had actually had some merit. The

problem was for one that you can't make comment on an acute medical

emergency without the appropriate medical assessment. On the other

hand many times Ac. App. can be dealt with without removal however

this needs to be monitored very closely by an experienced

professional IN PERSON and it cannot be done in an agressive fashion

as if there is any difficulty in resolution the patient must go to

the hospital and utilize the excellent first aid available at modern

day hospitals.

C) Please recognize that the status of research and medical/health

care " fact " is so convoluted at this time that what is " fact " and

not " fact " is hard if not impossible to discern from reading the

literature. This is why the romanticism of the " country doc "

because he's too stupid to be confused by the literature, he just

knows what to do based upon his experience and know how. This

doesn't mean we need to ignore the literature, it simply means that

we all should know that every single professional we consult

regarding health care is basing their recommendations on what they

BELIEVE to be the " facts " regarding health and health care. It is

no different than the different types of clergy basing their

recommendations on what they BELIEVE to be the " facts " regarding god.

Obviously this is somewhat of an exaggeration and there are

certainly basic fundamental facts that are nearly universal in

health care and health however beyond those basics, " facts " are

rarely part of the picture. The point of this is to simply say that

we really are our best doctor, however part of a good doctors job is

to be able to access the appropriate people, knowledge, books,

etc... in order to render an appropriate response to the health

issues at hand. More times than not the good doctor will make the

right decisions based upon the above skills, however we must always

remember that we are one wrong choice as this poor lady discovered,

from being very dead, and the only one who can ultimately hold

responsibility for that is us. She could have just as easily chosen

to go to the doctor, had the surgery and been killed by the surgeon

or the anesthesiologist (which nobody would have complained about)

and many a skilled non - medical professional would have said 'see

that's the wrong choice'. Truth is in the end it is up to each of

us to guide our own ship.

Bottom line is the advice was ridiculous and poor. And her course

of action showed the poorest level of judgement possible.

Thanks again for posting this story as it is important to use these

things to learn from and gain some perspective. sorry in advance if

my soap box is to high, I'll be stepping off now :-)

DMM

> (sorry for the duplicate post for those on both lists)

>

> I thought this was something worth posting, if even just to

provide food for

> thought when taking or giving advice on email lists. Obviously,

it's an

> extreme example of someone with an acute medical condition who,

for whatever

> reason, followed bad advice from a list 'guru,' which resulted in

her death.

> FWIW, this was a Frutarian (raw vegan) list, although I imagine

bad advice

> is not limited to fruitarian email boards.

>

>

> The original post from the woman who died is here:

> fruitarians/message/986

>

> The fateful advice post is here:

> fruitarians/message/989

>

> And the deceased's friend's post announcing her death is here:

> fruitarians/message/997

>

> Another list member's 'assessment' of the situation is here:

> fruitarians/message/1004

>

>

> I originally learned about this situation on the " RAW_FOOD "

archives page

> (posted this month)

> (http://maelstrom.stjohns.edu/CGI/wa.exe?A1=ind0210 & L=raw-food).

What I find

> especially nauseating, is that the dr. (dr. bernarr) who the

fruitarian list

> guru was telling the deceased to consult with, is also apparently

on the

> raw-food list, and posted what seems to be an incredibly callous

response to

> the announcement of the woman's death. His response

> (http://maelstrom.stjohns.edu/CGI/wa.exe?A2=ind0210 & L=raw-

food & F= & S= & P=160)

> was simply to post a pre-written article on the benefits of water

fasting

> for appendicitis, which is precisely what led to the woman's death

(!) I

> guess dr. bernarr is some type of " Natural Hygiene " guru? For those

> unfamiliar with natural hygiene, it is an extreme form of raw

veganism that

> promotes a diet based primarily on fruit and, imho, seems to be

more of a

> religion than a diet,. Just one example - bernarr writes in his

> water_fast_for_appendicitis article: " Only Natural Hygiene has had

the

> insight to write about this inherent self-healing mechanism. "

Also, his

> organization is called " God Healing, Inc. " This seems typical from

what I've

> read of Natural Hygiene, thus far.

>

> I hope this is not insulting to former frutarians/natural

hygienists on this

> list. i do apologize if it is, i don't mean it to be. I just found

dr.

> bernarr's response to the death of a human being, apparently

> caused_by_his_teachings, to be incredibly callous and self-serving

(i hope

> he is not typical of natural hygienists). And, if his response to

her death,

> by posting the very article that may have led to her death is not

enough,

> take a look at this sentence at the end of the article:

>

> " HOW WE CAN HELP HEAL YOUR APPENDICITIS VIA THE INTERNET

> We have helped heal many people with appendicitis, world-wide, via

the

> Internet. Contact us NOW and we will help heal your appendicitis,

via the

> Internet. "

>

> Sheesh! Is he on another planet or something???

>

> I guess this situation not only made me think about the risks

associated

> with giving and taking advice on email lists (although this is

truly an

> extreme example), but also about how people can get so caught up

in a

> philosophy - what they think is 'right', that they can go so far

as to lose

> touch with what their own body's telling them. Lots of

> ideas/theories/philosophies sound good, and look good on paper,

but at what

> point do people need to shove their pre-conceived notions to the

side and

> listen_to_what_their_body_is_telling_them?

>

>

>

> Very sad, indeed.

>

>

>

>

> Suze Fisher

> Lapdog Design, Inc.

> Web Design & Development

> http://members.bellatlantic.net/~vze3shjg/

> mailto:s.fisher22@v...

[Guest guest]

--- In @y..., " Kris " <kris.johnson@a...>

wrote:

> >the cause of Dr. Atkins heart attack?

>

> What's this about Dr. Atkins? Did I miss something while I was gone?

http://atkinscenter.com/Archive/2002/4/25-466719.html

[Guest guest]

Always remember chris that ANY infection regardless of how

it " should " be treated is a sign of a lack of health and weakened

immunity.

DMM

> Can seeded grapes do this to anyone? I thought I was wierd when I

was

> spitting all my seeds out when some guy passed around some seeded

grapes at

> the Sally Fallon lecture I went to the other day, maybe I was

saving myself!

> Is it inherent in the seeds, or only for people in bad health?

>

> Chris

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Appendicitis absolutely is an infection. One primary diagnostic

criteria is elevated wbc.

DMM

> Quoting " Dr. Marasco " <mmarasco@c...>:

>

> > Always remember chris that ANY infection regardless of how

> > it " should " be treated is a sign of a lack of health and weakened

> > immunity.

>

> Appendicitis isn't an infection, is it? I thought that it was

typically

> caused by a mechanical perforation of the appendix.

>

> --

> Berg

> bberg@c...