Re: Unbleached white flour and also rancid fat question

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 11/26/02 9:22:23 AM Eastern Standard Time,

paul@... writes:

> Are you refering to the phytic acid, which blocks the absorption of calcium

> and magnesium? (Could not find antinutrients in NT)

>

> Are the antinutrients present only in the bran and germ, or the endosperm

as

> well?

>

> What effect does pre-soaking the flour have on antinutrients?

My understanding is that the phytic acid is mostly present in the bran, and

not so much the germ and endosperm, though maybe there is some in the latter

two. Soaking in an acidic medium in moderate warmth for an extended period

will neutralize the phytic acid, the longer, the more of an effect. Don't

know of any other antinutrients in flour, though there are others in other

foods, like protease inhibitors in soy, some glycoprotein in egg whites that

binds biotin, etc.

As to fats going rancid, I think it is a week or two weeks before the fats go

rancid, at least to the point of noticability, but probably start

imeediately. Actually, since the anti-oxidants prevent this, my guess would

be that first vitamin E depletion would occur, immediately, and then after

that oxidation would occur. I would think it would occur less quickly in

bread, if it hasn't occurred already, because the baking might have a sealant

effect that would reduce the surface area that is exposed to oxygen.

Your best bet for store bread would probably be to buy it frozen. Shiloh

Farms makes a sprouted grain bread that is frozen.

Chris

____

" What can one say of a soul, of a heart, filled with compassion? It is a

heart which burns with love for every creature: for human beings, birds, and

animals, for serpents and for demons. The thought of them and the sight of

them make the tears of the saint flow. And this immense and intense

compassion, which flows from the heart of the saints, makes them unable to

bear the sight of the smallest, most insignificant wound in any creature.

Thus they pray ceaselessly, with tears, even for animals, for enemies of the

truth, and for those who do them wrong. "

--Saint Isaac the Syrian

[Guest guest]

What do you mean? For the fat oxidation? I was considering summer New

England weather. I don't know why I didn't say that. I guess 70-80F.

Chris

In a message dated 11/26/02 6:54:53 PM Eastern Standard Time,

dkemnitz2000@... writes:

> ---Nutrient degradation is temperature dependent. What temps are you

> considering? Dennis

>

>

>

> In @y..., ChrisMasterjohn@a... wrote:

> > In a message dated 11/26/02 9:22:23 AM Eastern Standard Time,

> > paul@a... writes:

> >

> > > Are you refering to the phytic acid, which blocks the absorption

> of calcium

> > > and magnesium? (Could not find antinutrients in NT)

> > >

> > > Are the antinutrients present only in the bran and germ, or the

> endosperm

> > as

> > > well?

> > >

> > > What effect does pre-soaking the flour have on antinutrients?

> >

> > My understanding is that the phytic acid is mostly present in the

> bran, and

> > not so much the germ and endosperm, though maybe there is some in

> the latter

> > two. Soaking in an acidic medium in moderate warmth for an

> extended period

> > will neutralize the phytic acid, the longer, the more of an

> effect. Don't

> > know of any other antinutrients in flour, though there are others

> in other

> > foods, like protease inhibitors in soy, some glycoprotein in egg

> whites that

> > binds biotin, etc.

> >

> > As to fats going rancid, I think it is a week or two weeks before

> the fats go

> > rancid, at least to the point of noticability, but probably start

> > imeediately. Actually, since the anti-oxidants prevent this, my

> guess would

> > be that first vitamin E depletion would occur, immediately, and

> then after

> > that oxidation would occur. I would think it would occur less

> quickly in

> > bread, if it hasn't occurred already, because the baking might have

> a sealant

> > effect that would reduce the surface area that is exposed to oxygen.

> >

> > Your best bet for store bread would probably be to buy it frozen.

> Shiloh

> > Farms makes a sprouted grain bread that is frozen.

> >

> > Chris

> >

> > ____

____

" What can one say of a soul, of a heart, filled with compassion? It is a

heart which burns with love for every creature: for human beings, birds, and

animals, for serpents and for demons. The thought of them and the sight of

them make the tears of the saint flow. And this immense and intense

compassion, which flows from the heart of the saints, makes them unable to

bear the sight of the smallest, most insignificant wound in any creature.

Thus they pray ceaselessly, with tears, even for animals, for enemies of the

truth, and for those who do them wrong. "

--Saint Isaac the Syrian

[Guest guest]

---Nutrient degradation is temperature dependent. What temps are you

considering? Dennis

In @y..., ChrisMasterjohn@a... wrote:

> In a message dated 11/26/02 9:22:23 AM Eastern Standard Time,

> paul@a... writes:

>

> > Are you refering to the phytic acid, which blocks the absorption

of calcium

> > and magnesium? (Could not find antinutrients in NT)

> >

> > Are the antinutrients present only in the bran and germ, or the

endosperm

> as

> > well?

> >

> > What effect does pre-soaking the flour have on antinutrients?

>

> My understanding is that the phytic acid is mostly present in the

bran, and

> not so much the germ and endosperm, though maybe there is some in

the latter

> two. Soaking in an acidic medium in moderate warmth for an

extended period

> will neutralize the phytic acid, the longer, the more of an

effect. Don't

> know of any other antinutrients in flour, though there are others

in other

> foods, like protease inhibitors in soy, some glycoprotein in egg

whites that

> binds biotin, etc.

>

> As to fats going rancid, I think it is a week or two weeks before

the fats go

> rancid, at least to the point of noticability, but probably start

> imeediately. Actually, since the anti-oxidants prevent this, my

guess would

> be that first vitamin E depletion would occur, immediately, and

then after

> that oxidation would occur. I would think it would occur less

quickly in

> bread, if it hasn't occurred already, because the baking might have

a sealant

> effect that would reduce the surface area that is exposed to oxygen.

>

> Your best bet for store bread would probably be to buy it frozen.

Shiloh

> Farms makes a sprouted grain bread that is frozen.

>

> Chris

>

> ____

>

> " What can one say of a soul, of a heart, filled with compassion?

It is a

> heart which burns with love for every creature: for human beings,

birds, and

> animals, for serpents and for demons. The thought of them and the

sight of

> them make the tears of the saint flow. And this immense and

intense

> compassion, which flows from the heart of the saints, makes them

unable to

> bear the sight of the smallest, most insignificant wound in any

creature.

> Thus they pray ceaselessly, with tears, even for animals, for

enemies of the

> truth, and for those who do them wrong. "

>

> --Saint Isaac the Syrian

[Guest guest]

---Nutrient degradation is temperature dependent. What temps are you

considering? Dennis

In @y..., ChrisMasterjohn@a... wrote:

> In a message dated 11/26/02 9:22:23 AM Eastern Standard Time,

> paul@a... writes:

>

> > Are you refering to the phytic acid, which blocks the absorption

of calcium

> > and magnesium? (Could not find antinutrients in NT)

> >

> > Are the antinutrients present only in the bran and germ, or the

endosperm

> as

> > well?

> >

> > What effect does pre-soaking the flour have on antinutrients?

>

> My understanding is that the phytic acid is mostly present in the

bran, and

> not so much the germ and endosperm, though maybe there is some in

the latter

> two. Soaking in an acidic medium in moderate warmth for an

extended period

> will neutralize the phytic acid, the longer, the more of an

effect. Don't

> know of any other antinutrients in flour, though there are others

in other

> foods, like protease inhibitors in soy, some glycoprotein in egg

whites that

> binds biotin, etc.

>

> As to fats going rancid, I think it is a week or two weeks before

the fats go

> rancid, at least to the point of noticability, but probably start

> imeediately. Actually, since the anti-oxidants prevent this, my

guess would

> be that first vitamin E depletion would occur, immediately, and

then after

> that oxidation would occur. I would think it would occur less

quickly in

> bread, if it hasn't occurred already, because the baking might have

a sealant

> effect that would reduce the surface area that is exposed to oxygen.

>

> Your best bet for store bread would probably be to buy it frozen.

Shiloh

> Farms makes a sprouted grain bread that is frozen.

>

> Chris

>

> ____

>

> " What can one say of a soul, of a heart, filled with compassion?

It is a

> heart which burns with love for every creature: for human beings,

birds, and

> animals, for serpents and for demons. The thought of them and the

sight of

> them make the tears of the saint flow. And this immense and

intense

> compassion, which flows from the heart of the saints, makes them

unable to

> bear the sight of the smallest, most insignificant wound in any

creature.

> Thus they pray ceaselessly, with tears, even for animals, for

enemies of the

> truth, and for those who do them wrong. "

>

> --Saint Isaac the Syrian

[Guest guest]

---Nutrient degradation is temperature dependent. What temps are you

considering? Dennis

In @y..., ChrisMasterjohn@a... wrote:

> In a message dated 11/26/02 9:22:23 AM Eastern Standard Time,

> paul@a... writes:

>

> > Are you refering to the phytic acid, which blocks the absorption

of calcium

> > and magnesium? (Could not find antinutrients in NT)

> >

> > Are the antinutrients present only in the bran and germ, or the

endosperm

> as

> > well?

> >

> > What effect does pre-soaking the flour have on antinutrients?

>

> My understanding is that the phytic acid is mostly present in the

bran, and

> not so much the germ and endosperm, though maybe there is some in

the latter

> two. Soaking in an acidic medium in moderate warmth for an

extended period

> will neutralize the phytic acid, the longer, the more of an

effect. Don't

> know of any other antinutrients in flour, though there are others

in other

> foods, like protease inhibitors in soy, some glycoprotein in egg

whites that

> binds biotin, etc.

>

> As to fats going rancid, I think it is a week or two weeks before

the fats go

> rancid, at least to the point of noticability, but probably start

> imeediately. Actually, since the anti-oxidants prevent this, my

guess would

> be that first vitamin E depletion would occur, immediately, and

then after

> that oxidation would occur. I would think it would occur less

quickly in

> bread, if it hasn't occurred already, because the baking might have

a sealant

> effect that would reduce the surface area that is exposed to oxygen.

>

> Your best bet for store bread would probably be to buy it frozen.

Shiloh

> Farms makes a sprouted grain bread that is frozen.

>

> Chris

>

> ____

>

> " What can one say of a soul, of a heart, filled with compassion?

It is a

> heart which burns with love for every creature: for human beings,

birds, and

> animals, for serpents and for demons. The thought of them and the

sight of

> them make the tears of the saint flow. And this immense and

intense

> compassion, which flows from the heart of the saints, makes them

unable to

> bear the sight of the smallest, most insignificant wound in any

creature.

> Thus they pray ceaselessly, with tears, even for animals, for

enemies of the

> truth, and for those who do them wrong. "

>

> --Saint Isaac the Syrian

[Guest guest]

--- I just meant to point out that reactions occur at a slower rate

at lower temperatures. Increasing the oxygen content will increase

the autoxidation . Refrigeration and freezing can be used to

stabilize vitamins . Dennis

In @y..., ChrisMasterjohn@a... wrote:

> What do you mean? For the fat oxidation? I was considering summer

New

> England weather. I don't know why I didn't say that. I guess 70-

80F.

>

> Chris

>

> In a message dated 11/26/02 6:54:53 PM Eastern Standard Time,

> dkemnitz2000@y... writes:

>

> > ---Nutrient degradation is temperature dependent. What temps are

you

> > considering? Dennis

> >

> >

> >

> > In @y..., ChrisMasterjohn@a... wrote:

>

[Guest guest]

>Soaking in an acidic medium in moderate warmth for an extended period

> will neutralize the phytic acid, the longer, the more of an effect.

thanks for the info. What kind of acidic solution do people soak in?

We normally soak overnight in water.

The flour itself is refrigerated at the mill, after it is ground and we

usually store it in the freezer, so I'm not concerned about rancidity. We

were lucky enough to find a stone-mill about 1/2 hr away, and he uses mostly

organic grains (some are Amish grains)

-

-

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 11/26/02 10:43:14 PM Eastern Standard Time,

paul@... writes:

> >Soaking in an acidic medium in moderate warmth for an extended period

> > will neutralize the phytic acid, the longer, the more of an effect.

>

> thanks for the info. What kind of acidic solution do people soak in?

> We normally soak overnight in water.

>

> The flour itself is refrigerated at the mill, after it is ground and we

> usually store it in the freezer, so I'm not concerned about rancidity. We

> were lucky enough to find a stone-mill about 1/2 hr away, and he uses

mostly

> organic grains (some are Amish grains)

Water will help break down the phytates, but will work better if slightly

acidic. Add two tbsp of whey per cup of water to make it acidic. If you

don't have access to whey, lemon juice or vinegar would work, but probably

have more of an adverse effect on the taste.

I soak in yogurt, which makes it into a dough that I then use as a recipe,

according to the NT recipes. So, for example, pancakes, I make into a

yogurt-dough, sit for 24 hours, then add eggs, melted butter, baking soda,

etc, and some water to thin it out, and cook them.

I wonder if you could just ask the guy to reserve you some unsifted flour?

Chris

____

" What can one say of a soul, of a heart, filled with compassion? It is a

heart which burns with love for every creature: for human beings, birds, and

animals, for serpents and for demons. The thought of them and the sight of

them make the tears of the saint flow. And this immense and intense

compassion, which flows from the heart of the saints, makes them unable to

bear the sight of the smallest, most insignificant wound in any creature.

Thus they pray ceaselessly, with tears, even for animals, for enemies of the

truth, and for those who do them wrong. "

--Saint Isaac the Syrian

[Guest guest]

, do you have the NT cookbook? Sally goes into detail about how to soak

grains to remove the phytic acid. Normally, you soak in water with some whey

added. There are some variations, however, depending on the grain.

----- Original Message -----

From: Braun

Sent: Tuesday, November 26, 2002 10:56 PM

Subject: Re: Unbleached white flour and also rancid fat

question

>Soaking in an acidic medium in moderate warmth for an extended period

> will neutralize the phytic acid, the longer, the more of an effect.

thanks for the info. What kind of acidic solution do people soak in?

We normally soak overnight in water.

The flour itself is refrigerated at the mill, after it is ground and we

usually store it in the freezer, so I'm not concerned about rancidity. We

were lucky enough to find a stone-mill about 1/2 hr away, and he uses mostly

organic grains (some are Amish grains)

-

-

[Guest guest]

> , do you have the NT cookbook?

Yes, I do - I'll look again. I thought the info was in there, but didn't do

a very good job looking for it the other day. Thanks for the heads-up.

-