Re: probiotics, and really, REALLY bad customer service

[Guest guest]

Suze-

>In any case, I don't care how good the product is, i just refuse to pay $ to

>someone with such a horrible attitude.

I know what you mean; Harry can be a jerk. The problem is that I don't

think there's a better product out there, or even one that comes

close. Everything else is either low potency or comes with horrible

fillers -- or both.

-

[Guest guest]

Hi Suze,

I was delighted to read about Mokie's improvement. What a lucky

little min-pin to have such loving and knowedgeable care.

Sheila

> I don't know which list I recommended Custom Probiotics CP-1 on,

but I have

> to say, that while i feel the product is good, the customer service

is the

> rudest i have ever encountered. So buyer beware.

>

> Their office was closed for a week or two recently so I could not

order the

> product which i'm using therapeutically for my min pin with

colitis. They

> reopened for business this past Tues and I called them immediately

because I

> was getting low on the product and worried about what effect it

might have

> on my dog if i suddenly ran out. I ordered it 2nd day air shipping

and was

> told it would go out by weds. and that I'd have it on Friday.

>

> Today is friday and i didn't get it, so called the company (i think

it's a

> one man operation). I was told it was shipped Thurs. and that I'd

have it on

> Monday. I was not happy with this because a) i was told I'd have it

on

> Friday, I'm paying 2nd day air shipping and should get it in two

days -

> not 5, and c) was concerned about the degradation of the product

sitting in

> a UPS warehouse over the weekend. I was assured that wouldn't be a

problem

> due to testing they've done on the product, and I understood that

it would

> be OK over the weekend when it was explained. But before this was

explained

> to me, I asked if they could ship another one on monday so it would

only be

> in transit 2 days, and the man got very angry at me for asking

this. He

> angrily told me i do not understand the biochemistry of it

(although I told

> him i was OK with the 5 days after he explained why) and then he

angrily

> told me " don't use my products! " and hung up on me. he seemed to

have a

> really short fuse...

>

> In any case, I don't care how good the product is, i just refuse to

pay $ to

> someone with such a horrible attitude. So, I'm going to accept the

package

> on Monday, for the benefit of my dog who seems to be doing well on

it, and

> in the meantime look for an alternative. 1 bottle will last me

almost 3

> months so that will give me plenty of time to replace it. By that

time I

> hope to be feeding her mostly food-based probiotics anyway. But, I

may

> continue using commercial probiotics indefinitely as well,

depending on how

> Mokie does. I'm sure there must be other good probiotic products on

the

> market...so, I'm looking for one with multiple strains and a

guaranteed

> potency, such as *x* number of viable organisms through expiration.

I would

> LOVE to know of a product that anyone has experience using with

their dogs,

> that fits this criteria.

>

> TIA

>

>

>

> Suze Fisher

> Lapdog Design, Inc.

> Web Design & Development

> http://members.bellatlantic.net/~vze3shjg/

> mailto:s.fisher22@v...

[Guest guest]

>In any case, I don't care how good the product is, i just refuse to pay $

to

>someone with such a horrible attitude.

>>>>I know what you mean; Harry can be a jerk. The problem is that I don't

think there's a better product out there, or even one that comes

close. Everything else is either low potency or comes with horrible

fillers -- or both.

------->well, luckily, i don't need high potency - this is for a 9 lber.

I've been giving her 1 capsule of the CP-1 per day, and am concerned that

it's waaaayy too much for her size. my holistic vet thought even half that

was more than adequate. so i'm going to slowly lower the dose. I think there

are probably some good lower dose ones on the market. i'll find one that

works for her. might try some marketed for companion animals. my goal is to

either get her off them completely or only use them sparingly. I'll be

fermenting her food again in the future with kefir whey and also continue

feeding fibers that promote the growth of beneficial colonic bacteria, so

hope to greatly or completely reduce any dependence on commercial

probiotics.

Suze Fisher

Lapdog Design, Inc.

Web Design & Development

http://members.bellatlantic.net/~vze3shjg/

mailto:s.fisher22@...

[Guest guest]

Suze-

>and also continue

>feeding fibers that promote the growth of beneficial colonic bacteria,

Are you by any chance talking about stuff like FOS and/or Inulin?

-

[Guest guest]

>and also continue

>feeding fibers that promote the growth of beneficial colonic bacteria,

>>>Are you by any chance talking about stuff like FOS and/or Inulin?

--------->i'm talking about moderately fermentable fibers that have been

tested on dogs - mainly rice bran. i am trying a stabilized rice bran

product on her now that contains FOS from chicory. FOS has also been tested

on dogs quite a bit and found to have a positive impact on gut health. IIRC,

beneficial bacteria used it as substrate, but the pathogenic strains did

not. FOS is not SCD-approved, is it? I tried a SCD approach (at least I

think it was) with Mokie, but it didn't work for her. can you remind me what

is considered 'bad' about FOS? Here's the product I'm giving her now:

Tocotriene Complex

http://216.239.53.100/search?q=cache:Whj50gBjxYoC:brinkleysbest.com/vitamins

..html+Tocotriene+Complex & hl=en & ie=UTF-8

I tried regular brown rice ground up, but it seemed to irritate her GI

tract. So i decided to try a stabilized rice bran product. I will try rice

again, but will add extra water to soften it up more. when i get my kefir

grains after x-mas, i will also try fermenting it for her.

Suze Fisher

Lapdog Design, Inc.

Web Design & Development

http://members.bellatlantic.net/~vze3shjg/

mailto:s.fisher22@...

[Guest guest]

Suze-

Well, of course it's your choice, but I highly, highly recommend stopping

the rice bran and FOS. I can't recommend that enough. The citations of

studies in support of FOS always conveniently neglect to mention that while

good bacteria do feed on the FOS, a number of bad bacteria feed much, much

more.

-

[Guest guest]

>>>>>Well, of course it's your choice, but I highly, highly recommend

stopping

the rice bran and FOS. I can't recommend that enough. The citations of

studies in support of FOS always conveniently neglect to mention that while

good bacteria do feed on the FOS, a number of bad bacteria feed much, much

more.

--------->, this is not consistent with the canine studies on rice bran

and FOS that I've read, and I've read quite a few. I'm not sure why...i

understand dogs probably have gut bacteria that we don't and vice versa, as

well as there being some overlap. I wonder if it has anything to do with

different bacterial populations? I also wonder if the studies you are

referring to used a different type of FOS (not from chicory). FOS is

becoming more widely used in dog food formulations now too, probably based

on the studies. I still don't know whether I think it's good, bad or

neutral, but i'm willing to try things that have shown to effective in

improving and maintaining gut health in dogs. So far this rice bran with FOS

seems to be working well for mokie - better than the whole rice i was

feeding her. but i haven't made any decisions about a *maitenance* diet

yet....i'm still trying things out to see what she does well on and what she

can't tolerate. I'll be sure to reread all the studies on FOS though, to see

if i'm missing anything. Even though i haven't bee too impressed with

gottschal's work, i'll pick up her book again too to see what her issue is

with FOS.

Suze Fisher

Lapdog Design, Inc.

Web Design & Development

http://members.bellatlantic.net/~vze3shjg/

mailto:s.fisher22@...

[Guest guest]

Suze-

>, this is not consistent with the canine studies on rice bran

>and FOS that I've read, and I've read quite a few.

Well, this is what I'm saying: it's not consistent with the studies on

humans either, but that's because it's still a well-kept secret. But you

can find out that FOS does a bang-up job of feeding klebsiella, for

example, if you look hard enough. I'd consider it extremely risky to feed

to a dog.

>FOS is

>becoming more widely used in dog food formulations now

Well, no offense, but all sorts of garbage is widely used in dog (and

human) formulations. I still wouldn't want to touch it with a ten-foot pole.

>So far this rice bran with FOS

>seems to be working well for mokie - better than the whole rice i was

>feeding her.

OK, another question. Were you feeding her the rice raw or just

cooked? Because canines don't make a practice of grazing, and I don't

think cooking adequately mimics the way they get some vegetable matter in

the wild -- partially digested. Perhaps lacto-fermentation would work; I'm

not sure.

-

[Guest guest]

>, this is not consistent with the canine studies on rice bran

>and FOS that I've read, and I've read quite a few.

>>>>Well, this is what I'm saying: it's not consistent with the studies on

humans either, but that's because it's still a well-kept secret. But you

can find out that FOS does a bang-up job of feeding klebsiella, for

example, if you look hard enough.

----->where did you find this info?

>FOS is

>becoming more widely used in dog food formulations now

>>>Well, no offense, but all sorts of garbage is widely used in dog (and

human) formulations. I still wouldn't want to touch it with a ten-foot

pole.

---->oh, not at all. I'm well aware of the garbage used in many of the

formulations of the large manufacuturers in particular. Not that it makes

any difference, but the formulations using FOS that I'm aware of are

actually some of the better manufactures/products on the market including

Steve's raw food and Wysong.

>So far this rice bran with FOS

>seems to be working well for mokie - better than the whole rice i was

>feeding her.

>>>OK, another question. Were you feeding her the rice raw or just

cooked?

-->*raw* rice? oh heck no! LOL cooked organic brown rice. And, there's rice

in the commercial food that I've been using temporarily. she has depressed

amylase levels, so i also grind and mash the rice. I'm planning on

kefir-fermenting it when i get my new grains.

>>>>Because canines don't make a practice of grazing, and I don't

think cooking adequately mimics the way they get some vegetable matter in

the wild -- partially digested. Perhaps lacto-fermentation would work; I'm

not sure.

---------->i'm not trying to mimic the wild right now. this is a therapeutic

diet for a 'sick' animal, although 'sick' may not be the proper word.

mimicing the wild is what seems to have lead to her problem in the first

place. this dog needs fiber. it took me a long time to learn that. She did

poorly without it, she's doing much better with it. i'm letting *her* lead

the way in showing me what works and what doesn't for *her.* I appreciate

your input and i will read up on FOS again. If you have any studies that

actually found it fed pathogenic bacteria, please let me know.

-

Suze Fisher

Lapdog Design, Inc.

Web Design & Development

http://members.bellatlantic.net/~vze3shjg/

mailto:s.fisher22@...

[Guest guest]

>>>> but the formulations using FOS that I'm aware of are

actually some of the better manufactures/products on the market including

Steve's raw food and Wysong.

------->oops! that's not quite right - the wysong formula i was thinking of

includes *artichoke* not *chicory* and Steve's is using *chicory* IIRC, not

FOS isolated from chicory.

Suze Fisher

Lapdog Design, Inc.

Web Design & Development

http://members.bellatlantic.net/~vze3shjg/

mailto:s.fisher22@...

[Guest guest]

What is FOS?

Peace,

Kris , gardening in harmony with nature in northwest Ohio

If you want to hear the good news about butter check out this Web site:

http://www.westonaprice.org/know_your_fats/know_your_fats.html

To learn more check out our Web site:

http://home.woh.rr.com/billkrisjohnson/

..

----- Original Message -----

From: " Idol " <Idol@...>

< >

Sent: Monday, December 09, 2002 1:05 PM

Subject: RE: probiotics, and really, REALLY bad customer

service

> Suze-

>

> Well, of course it's your choice, but I highly, highly recommend stopping

> the rice bran and FOS. I can't recommend that enough. The citations of

> studies in support of FOS always conveniently neglect to mention that

while

> good bacteria do feed on the FOS, a number of bad bacteria feed much, much

> more.

>

>

>

> -

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Fructo-Oligosaccharides (spelling might be off). Sugar that's not utilized by

the body and is consumed by bacteria in the gut. It can be helpful but can

also feed bacteria and yeast that's undesirable.

Ken

In a message dated 12/27/02 10:20:26 PM, kris.johnson@... writes:

<< What is FOS? >>

[Guest guest]

Kris-

>What is FOS?

Fructo-oligosaccharides. It's a medium-length polymerized chain of

fructose molecules, and it's promoted as being great for human health

because some studies have indicated that bifida bacteria like to eat it and

grow well on it. The problem is that bad organisms -- like klebsiella --

do much better on FOS than any good bacteria, so you're actually making

lots of trouble for yourself if you eat it, either immediately or

eventually. It's closely related to inulin, which is another additive to

avoid like the plague.

There's a good page with a pile of references at the BTVC site.

http://www.breakingtheviciouscycle.org/faq/fos.html

-

[Guest guest]

Suze-

>where did you find this info?

My apologies for not getting back to you sooner. It's been a bit hectic

what with Christmas and all, and to be honest, I forgot to look for my

references. Anyway, the page I gave Kris is referenced and is a very good

start: http://www.breakingtheviciouscycle.org/faq/fos.html

>but the formulations using FOS that I'm aware of are

>actually some of the better manufactures/products on the market including

>Steve's raw food and Wysong.

And similarly, the brands of human products using FOS and Inulin are often

some of the best ones. It's one of the latest health food fads, and lots

of well-meaning people and companies are jumping on it, but that doesn't

make it good.

>I'm planning on

>kefir-fermenting it when i get my new grains.

I don't see the point in feeding a dog with digestive problems ANY grains,

but if you're going to try them, I'd definitely go with lacto-fermenting,

because that more closely resembles the pre-digestion that would occur in

the wild in the stomachs of prey animals before any canine would ever reach

the grain foods.

-

[Guest guest]

http://www.scdiet.org/6research/fos.html

----- Original Message -----

From: " Idol " <Idol@...>

< >

Sent: Saturday, December 28, 2002 11:02 AM

Subject: Re: probiotics, and really, REALLY bad customer

service

> Kris-

>

> >What is FOS?

>

> Fructo-oligosaccharides. It's a medium-length polymerized chain of

> fructose molecules, and it's promoted as being great for human health

> because some studies have indicated that bifida bacteria like to eat it

and

> grow well on it. The problem is that bad organisms -- like klebsiella --

> do much better on FOS than any good bacteria, so you're actually making

> lots of trouble for yourself if you eat it, either immediately or

> eventually. It's closely related to inulin, which is another additive to

> avoid like the plague.

>

> There's a good page with a pile of references at the BTVC site.

>

> http://www.breakingtheviciouscycle.org/faq/fos.html

>

>

>

>

> -

>

>

>