Re: The Pemmican Report -- & Many Questions

[Guest guest]

I LOVE pemmican. I have been making it for about a year now. My recipes

are on file with this group.

I also ferment the meat, but usually use kefir whey not the actual kefir.

However this should not have made a big difference.

I wonder if the burn milk taste you describe could be due to the grinding.

This meat gets HOT when it is ground up, especially if the meat was not

dehydrated completely.

I always dehydrate until it is VERY dry - it can take up to a couple of

days in wet weather. Then it grinds easier in my Vita Mix.

As far as how long you fermented (30 hours) that should be no problem as I

have left mine up to one week. IN the refrigerator.

The buffalo suet should not have been a problem, but how you cook it could

be. It needs to be melted at a fairly low heat, and it takes a couple of

hours. Care has to be taken not to burn it.

I use cow suet, and I also add a bit of pure, cold pressed virgin coconut

oil. It tastes great!

The sesame seeds are the same thing, don't burn them.

** I wonder if part of the problem is that you did not use salt? I always

use Celtic Sea Salt. Can't imagine pemmican without salt. BTW, Celtic Sea

Salt will not cause health problems like store bought salt. Here is a link

http://www.healthfree.com/celtic/celtsalt1.htm.

Hope this helps, and have a very Merry Christmas!

Kat

http://www.katking.com

----- Original Message -----

From: " Idol " <Idol@...>

< >

Sent: Tuesday, December 24, 2002 10:21 AM

Subject: The Pemmican Report -- & Many Questions

> I just sampled my very first batch of home-made pemmican, and I had to

spit

> it out and wipe off my tongue with a towel -- and then I had to cut off my

> tongue, flush it down the toilet and burn the toilet. My GOD it was

> disgusting! I don't even know how to describe how it tastes; it's

uniquely

> awful. If anyone here is a pemmican expert and would like to help me out,

> though, I'll happily send you a chunk to taste, because I sure need all

the

> advice I can get!

>

> For in case it sheds any light on the matter, here's what I did.

>

> I marinated thin slices of (grass-fed) London broil in raw-milk kefir with

> a bit of crushed garlic and marjoram for about 30 hours. (I'd meant to do

> it for 12 hours, but life got in the way, as usual.) Then I put the

strips

> of meat, minus almost all the kefir, in the dehydrator at 145 degrees for

> about 48 hours. I tried eating a piece afterwards, and while it wasn't

> appetizing, it also wasn't gruesome beyond belief.

>

> I have a medium-sized Cuisinart, so I ran the dried meat through in

batches

> to turn it to powder, and that's where I ran into my first obvious

> problem. The Cuisinart just wasn't very effective at powdering the

> meat. I kept having to take it out, dump it in a strainer and stir it

> around with a spoon to get most of the powder out and then put the

> remaining chunks of dried meat back in the processor for another extended

> and mostly-ineffective round of processing. Between the three batches of

> meat and putting each batch in over and over again, I must have done this

> fifteen times, and in the end I had to discard a little of the meat

because

> there just wasn't enough volume for the Cuisinart to work. Is there a

> better way to grind the meat? Would an actual meat grinder work, or would

> that be a problem with dried meat?

>

> I had previously rendered some buffalo suet, so I melted some in a

saucepan

> and poured most of it into the meat powder and mixed them together, then I

> browned some sesame seeds in the rest of the fat and poured the mixture

> into the mud and mixed again. Then I poured the mud into a

parchment-lined

> baking dish and stuck it in the fridge to solidify.

>

> Could I have ruined the suet? A couple months ago I asked about that

here,

> as I was concerned that the chunks of fat were browning too much. Should

I

> not have marinated the meat in kefir, or not so long? Should I have

> skipped the sesame seeds, or used a small amount of dehydrated cherries or

> cranberries instead?

>

> The best description I can come up with of the taste is that there's an

> unpleasant burnt milk powder element (and here's where I'm thinking no

> kefir next time) along with a nasty burnt pan scrapings undertone. Did I

> use too high a temperature dehydrating the beef? Should I have used less

> suet, and poured it into the meat powder when it had cooled some? It did

> make crackling sounds as it poured in. Should I have skipped browning the

> sesame seeds? I had real misgivings about that, and they definitely don't

> taste good in there.

>

> I'd really appreciate any help, as I was counting on pemmican as a

> portable, healthy snack that would be very filling and get me through any

> emergencies.

>

>

>

> -

[Guest guest]

My boss has a Vita Vitamixer and he said the flour grinding instructions

suggest freezing the grain to avoid excess nutrient damage from heat-- maybe

you might want to try that with the meat. It worked for me gringing in

coffee grinder, food processer and blender. The flour got warm especially in

the blender when I did it regular, but stayed cool when I tried freezing it

first.

Chris

In a message dated 12/24/02 5:52:55 PM Eastern Standard Time,

katking@... writes:

> I wonder if the burn milk taste you describe could be due to the grinding.

> This meat gets HOT when it is ground up, especially if the meat was not

> dehydrated completely.

____

" What can one say of a soul, of a heart, filled with compassion? It is a

heart which burns with love for every creature: for human beings, birds, and

animals, for serpents and for demons. The thought of them and the sight of

them make the tears of the saint flow. And this immense and intense

compassion, which flows from the heart of the saints, makes them unable to

bear the sight of the smallest, most insignificant wound in any creature.

Thus they pray ceaselessly, with tears, even for animals, for enemies of the

truth, and for those who do them wrong. "

--Saint Isaac the Syrian

[Guest guest]

Hi,

I made my first batch of pemmican recently and here are a few notes.

I didn't ferment the meat with kefir (I don't think that's

traditional), but I did slice it thinly and salt it with fine grain

sea salt and left it for 2 days in the fridge. After this curing the

meat was delicious just raw. Then I dried it in a oven at 140 with

the door open - it took about 8-12 hours to dry out the meat. But

when I tried to powder it in the cuisinart it took a lot of grinding

and all I got were shreds. In Ray Audette's book Neanderthin (basic

info on a Paleo diet) he says if the temp is too high you will get

shreds instead of powder. He dries his meat in a dehyradtor at 90-100

degrees. So I think that was the main problem. The suet I used was

also from a grass fed California cow and when rendered it smells and

tastes sweet like an old fashioned donut shop. If you have good meat

and good fat the pemmican should taste fine. It is heavy food, meant

to maximize calories for volume, but it tastes good. All I added was

salt and a bit of cayenne. I'll try again soon and see if i can get a

lower temp in the oven. The only problem with my first batch was that

the shreds were tough to chew and took a lot of mouth time to loosen

up. Other than that, it was delicious! A little goes a long way.

By the way, I just checked Sally's recipe again and not only does she

recommend 150 degrees but says " lean beef such as brisket. " This is a

total contradiction in terms since brisket is one of the fattiest

cuts. Use a lean roast cut. Pros who make jerky do it out of lean

meat, because the fat gets in the way of the drying.

Good luck,

--- In , Idol <Idol@c...>

wrote:

> I just sampled my very first batch of home-made pemmican, and I had

to spit

> it out and wipe off my tongue with a towel -- and then I had to cut

off my

> tongue, flush it down the toilet and burn the toilet. My GOD it

was

> disgusting! I don't even know how to describe how it tastes; it's

uniquely

> awful. If anyone here is a pemmican expert and would like to help

me out,

> though, I'll happily send you a chunk to taste, because I sure need

all the

> advice I can get!

>

> For in case it sheds any light on the matter, here's what I did.

>

> I marinated thin slices of (grass-fed) london broil in raw-milk

kefir with

> a bit of crushed garlic and marjoram for about 30 hours. (I'd

meant to do

> it for 12 hours, but life got in the way, as usual.) Then I put

the strips

> of meat, minus almost all the kefir, in the dehydrator at 145

degrees for

> about 48 hours. I tried eating a piece afterwards, and while it

wasn't

> appetizing, it also wasn't gruesome beyond belief.

>

> I have a medium-sized Cuisinart, so I ran the dried meat through in

batches

> to turn it to powder, and that's where I ran into my first obvious

> problem. The Cuisinart just wasn't very effective at powdering the

> meat. I kept having to take it out, dump it in a strainer and stir

it

> around with a spoon to get most of the powder out and then put the

> remaining chunks of dried meat back in the processor for another

extended

> and mostly-ineffective round of processing. Between the three

batches of

> meat and putting each batch in over and over again, I must have

done this

> fifteen times, and in the end I had to discard a little of the meat

because

> there just wasn't enough volume for the Cuisinart to work. Is

there a

> better way to grind the meat? Would an actual meat grinder work,

or would

> that be a problem with dried meat?

>

> I had previously rendered some buffalo suet, so I melted some in a

saucepan

> and poured most of it into the meat powder and mixed them together,

then I

> browned some sesame seeds in the rest of the fat and poured the

mixture

> into the mud and mixed again. Then I poured the mud into a

parchment-lined

> baking dish and stuck it in the fridge to solidify.

>

> Could I have ruined the suet? A couple months ago I asked about

that here,

> as I was concerned that the chunks of fat were browning too much.

Should I

> not have marinated the meat in kefir, or not so long? Should I

have

> skipped the sesame seeds, or used a small amount of dehydrated

cherries or

> cranberries instead?

>

> The best description I can come up with of the taste is that

there's an

> unpleasant burnt milk powder element (and here's where I'm thinking

no

> kefir next time) along with a nasty burnt pan scrapings undertone.

Did I

> use too high a temperature dehydrating the beef? Should I have

used less

> suet, and poured it into the meat powder when it had cooled some?

It did

> make crackling sounds as it poured in. Should I have skipped

browning the

> sesame seeds? I had real misgivings about that, and they

definitely don't

> taste good in there.

>

> I'd really appreciate any help, as I was counting on pemmican as a

> portable, healthy snack that would be very filling and get me

through any

> emergencies.

>

>

>

> -

[Guest guest]

-

>but I did slice it thinly and salt it with fine grain

>sea salt and left it for 2 days in the fridge.

How thickly did you coat it with salt? I have Celtic sea salt, but I buy

the cheaper coarse stuff and grind it myself, so if I need a lot that could

take awhile. Should I just salt it as I would if I were going to eat it?

>He dries his meat in a dehyradtor at 90-100

>degrees. So I think that was the main problem.

Really! Wow, I'll try that next time. I just followed the instructions

that came with my dehydrator, which was probably not wise. How long does

he dehydrate the meat at that temperature?

>Use a lean roast cut. Pros who make jerky do it out of lean

>meat, because the fat gets in the way of the drying.

I used some extremely lean grass-fed london broil, and grass-fed buffalo

suet, but I'm wondering whether I scorched the suet. Maybe I should taste

the suet plain to see if it's OK?

-

[Guest guest]

Kat-

>I wonder if the burn milk taste you describe could be due to the grinding.

>This meat gets HOT when it is ground up, especially if the meat was not

>dehydrated completely.

I guess that's possible, but the meat was definitely completely dried. I'd

cut it into thin strips and then left it in the dehydrator for 48 hours.

> I wonder if part of the problem is that you did not use salt? I always

>use Celtic Sea Salt. Can't imagine pemmican without salt.

That was definitely a major, major omission, and not one I'll repeat. How

much salt do you use?

>The buffalo suet should not have been a problem, but how you cook it could

>be. It needs to be melted at a fairly low heat, and it takes a couple of

>hours.

When I rendered it a couple months ago it was definitely time-consuming,

but I used a cheap teflon pot that wasn't very thick at all, and that might

have contributed to scorching it. I'm thinking of getting an enameled cast

iron pot (Le Creuset, I guess) for future fat rendering, since I'll

apparently be doing a lot of that.

-

[Guest guest]

,

>>the meat was definitely completely dried. I'd

> cut it into thin strips and then left it in the dehydrator for 48 hours.

I dehydrate my meat in an Excalibur dehydrator - Usually about 6 pounds at a

time, and at about 125 degrees. The meat is no longer chewy, it is actually

powdery. Hard to describe. It may be due to the fermenting I do first as

well as the amount of time I dehydrate.

I usually ferment the meat with a little bit of salt and either fresh kefir

or fil mjolk whey, that is left over from making kefir or fil mjolk cheese.

> > I wonder if part of the problem is that you did not use salt? I always

> >use Celtic Sea Salt. Can't imagine pemmican without salt.>

> That was definitely a major, major omission, and not one I'll repeat. How

> much salt do you use?

I salt to taste. Do NOT use too much or you will have the opposite problem.

One thing I have noticed since using the Celtic Sea Salt is that I no longer

crave salt, so I prefer much less on my food.

You might want to try lightly salting some of the pemmican you made - see if

that perks up the taste.

>

> >The buffalo suet should not have been a problem, but how you cook it

could> >be. It needs to be melted at a fairly low heat, and it takes a

couple of

> >hours.> When I rendered it a couple months ago it was definitely

time-consuming, > but I used a cheap teflon pot that wasn't very thick at

all, and that might > have contributed to scorching it. I'm thinking of

getting an enameled cast > iron pot (Le Creuset, I guess) for future fat

rendering, since I'll > apparently be doing a lot of that.

That is a good idea. I use a very old cast iron pan.

When you get this recipe made to how you like it, try adding 3 or 4

tablespoon of virgin coconut oil - it sounds weird but is SO good. Also,

there are many health benefits of coconut oil! http://www.coconut-info.com/

Good luck and let us know how it turns out!

Kat http://www.katking.com

[Guest guest]

Kat-

>I dehydrate my meat in an Excalibur dehydrator

The very brand I have.

>- Usually about 6 pounds at a

>time,

How come only 6 pounds at a time? Just because that's all you need at a

time, or is there some other limiting factor?

> and at about 125 degrees. The meat is no longer chewy, it is actually

>powdery.

Hmm, that's lower than the 145 degrees I used, but have you tried it at an

even lower temperature? I'm going to dehydrate another london broil soon

to make another trial batch, and I'd love to figure out what the best

temperature to use is without going through a lot of costly and

time-consuming trial and error.

>You might want to try lightly salting some of the pemmican you made - see if

>that perks up the taste.

Trust me, the only thing that could possibly perk up the taste of my first

batch of pemmican would be completely replacing it with something else!

>That is a good idea. I use a very old cast iron pan.

A pan, rather than a pot? How much suet do you render at once? I'm

thinking of getting a fairly large pot, but do I need to limit the amount

of fat I render at once?

Also, what ratio of dehydrated meat powder to liquid (melted) suet do you

use by volume? IOW, once you've dried and ground the meat, do you use an

equal volume of fat, or less? One thing I suspect is that I used too much

fat the first time around, but I don't really know what proportion would be

best.

TIA!

-

[Guest guest]

Hi ,

> >- Usually about 6 pounds at a

> >time,

> How come only 6 pounds at a time? Just because that's all you need at a

> time, or is there some other limiting factor?

** No special reason except this is a manageable amount for me.

> > and at about 125 degrees. The meat is no longer chewy, it is actually

> >powdery.>

> Hmm, that's lower than the 145 degrees I used, but have you tried it at an

> even lower temperature? I'm going to dehydrate another London broil soon

> to make another trial batch, and I'd love to figure out what the best

> temperature to use is without going through a lot of costly and

> time-consuming trial and error.

** I only lower the temp to 125 degrees because I was into raw foods for so

long I figured 125 might be better than 145, but have no proof of this. I

just play around with my foods.

>>I use a very old cast iron pan.

> A pan, rather than a pot? How much suet do you render at once? I'm

> thinking of getting a fairly large pot, but do I need to limit the amount

> of fat I render at once?

** I only render the fat I am going to use. For 6 pounds of meat (raw

weight), I render 2 pounds of suet.

** As far as pan or pot, I never considered using a pot. I just use a very

large cast iron pan that has a top. Put it on the stove at just a little

over low, and leave it until done. I stir every 15 to 30 minutes. The

solids will turn crispy brown, NOT black.

> > Also, what ratio of dehydrated meat powder to liquid (melted) suet do

you > use by volume? IOW, once you've dried and ground the meat, do you use

an > equal volume of fat, or less? One thing I suspect is that I used too

much > fat the first time around, but I don't really know what proportion

would be > best.

** As I said above, I start with approximately (I do not use exact

measures):

1> 6 pounds raw meat (usually London Broil)

2> 1 1/2 to 2 pounds raw suet.

** You want the meat and other ingredients to be covered so it sticks

together, but don't want the final pemmican to be mostly grease. At first,

this amount of rendered suet will not look like enough, but let it cool and

you will see it is plenty.

Kat

[Guest guest]

--- In , Idol <Idol@c...>

wrote:

> -

>

> >but I did slice it thinly and salt it with fine grain

> >sea salt and left it for 2 days in the fridge.

>

> How thickly did you coat it with salt? I have Celtic sea salt, but

I buy

> the cheaper coarse stuff and grind it myself, so if I need a lot

that could

> take awhile. Should I just salt it as I would if I were going to

eat it?

Yes, but lightly. Drying concentrates the salt. Once I tasted the

jerky I knew i didn't need any other salt in the pemmican.

> >He dries his meat in a dehyradtor at 90-100

> >degrees. So I think that was the main problem.

>

> Really! Wow, I'll try that next time. I just followed the

instructions

> that came with my dehydrator, which was probably not wise. How

long does

> he dehydrate the meat at that temperature?

He just says 'until dried.' I imagine several hours (12 give or take)

but the key factor is how thinly you slice the meat. I tried to slice

mine as thin as possible.

> >Use a lean roast cut. Pros who make jerky do it out of lean

> >meat, because the fat gets in the way of the drying.

>

> I used some extremely lean grass-fed london broil, and grass-fed

buffalo

> suet, but I'm wondering whether I scorched the suet. Maybe I

should taste

> the suet plain to see if it's OK?

>

If your suet tastes bad, then your pemmican will taste bad. Cut it

into smaller pieces and render it at a very low temp for a long time.

It will gradually melt and the solids will gradually start turning

golden. That's it. Never let it smoke. The suet should taste sweet

and good by itself. Remember suet is an ingredient of traditional

Christmas pudding (see NT) and mixes with fruits and brandy! It

doesn't taste meaty at all.

Regarding the ratio of meat to suet to meat, you are aiming for a

fudge-like consistency when they are mixed together. Ray Audette says

1:1; I've seen others recipes that use slightly more meat per fat.

Remember the meat has lost a lot of volume already, so a 1:1 ratio of

meat to fat is really like 4:1 before drying, which is about the same

as ground beef.

Good luck!

[Guest guest]

-

>He just says 'until dried.' I imagine several hours (12 give or take)

>but the key factor is how thinly you slice the meat. I tried to slice

>mine as thin as possible.

Oh, as little as 12 hours? I wonder whether I left the meat in my first

batch in too long, then. (Or whether that would make much of a difference,

though at 145 degrees it might.)

>It will gradually melt and the solids will gradually start turning

>golden. That's it. Never let it smoke.

It never smoked or turned black, but the chunks did turn various shades of

gold and light to medium brown. I'm guessing I didn't wreck the suet,

then, but I'll taste a bit plain to make sure.

>Ray Audette says

>1:1; I've seen others recipes that use slightly more meat per fat.

Ah, thanks! I think I put a bit too much fat in the first time too, so

apparently I did just about everything wrong. Does he recommend using any

fruit or any other extra ingredients to make it taste better beyond salted

meat and fat?

-

[Guest guest]

> Does he recommend using any

> fruit or any other extra ingredients to make it taste better beyond

salted meat and fat?

Hi,

If you have good meat and fat it will taste great. I added a bit of

cayenne for some heat. Some recipes allow for dried fruit

(cranberries), and Ray Audette suggests dried cherries, but I don't

like the combo of fruit and meat. I'd rather eat them with hot sauce.

Others on this board have suggested coconut oil, sesame seeds, etc.

Make what you like.

Cheers,