Guest guest Posted December 29, 2002 Report Share Posted December 29, 2002 At 12:16 PM 12/28/02 -0500, you wrote: >I've noticed (but yet to document) that beef (steaks or ground) from a store >is usually VERY bright red. It stays red when left out in the open. > >Meat that I occasionally get from my Dad's farm is darker, almost brown, and >gets darker the longer it is left out in the open. Since blood turns brown >as it dries, it makes sense to me that meat should get browner, not redder >when left out. > >Does anyone know if this VERY RED meat has been sprayed with something to >make it look more appetizing in the grocery meat dept? > > >Thanks, > > >(this might be the last silly question I ask this year!) > Not silly at all. Ever buy ground beef thats nice and red on the outside and drained of blood on the inside and wonder how that can be? Was told (don't remember who but someone who I trusted) there is some colorant thats added at least in the chain grocers to extend saleability dates and aesthetics because who would buy drained out of blood meat even though its legally still good. Have noticed with our locally bought and raised beef what real blood does too. Wanita Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 29, 2002 Report Share Posted December 29, 2002 I'm pretty sure all commercially grown meat is dyed red after they cut out all the tumours and stuff. Some farmers even feed their cattle feed with red dye in it, so i've been told, Chris >From: " Braun " <paul@...> >Reply- >< > >Subject: Very Red Meat >Date: Sat, 28 Dec 2002 12:16:30 -0500 > >I've noticed (but yet to document) that beef (steaks or ground) from a >store >is usually VERY bright red. It stays red when left out in the open. > >Meat that I occasionally get from my Dad's farm is darker, almost brown, >and >gets darker the longer it is left out in the open. Since blood turns brown >as it dries, it makes sense to me that meat should get browner, not redder >when left out. > >Does anyone know if this VERY RED meat has been sprayed with something to >make it look more appetizing in the grocery meat dept? > > >Thanks, > > >(this might be the last silly question I ask this year!) > > > > >- > _________________________________________________________________ The new MSN 8: smart spam protection and 3 months FREE*. http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail & xAPID=42 & PS=47575 & PI=7324 & DI=7474 & SU\ = http://www.hotmail.msn.com/cgi-bin/getmsg & HL=1216hotmailtaglines_smartspamprotec\ tion_3mf Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 29, 2002 Report Share Posted December 29, 2002 --- In , " Braun " <paul@a...> wrote: > I've noticed (but yet to document) that beef (steaks or ground) from a store > is usually VERY bright red. The bright red just-slaughtered " fresh meat " color so appealing to mainstream consumers in the grocery is the result of a meat protein called myoglobin. The myoglobin content varies depending on the species, sex, and age of an animal, even the particular muscle. Beef has more myoglobin than pork, so beef is characteristically redder than pork. And mature beef has more myoglobin than young beef. Chicken has very little myoglobin, but more in its " dark " meat than in its " white " meat. > Meat that I occasionally get from my Dad's farm is darker, almost brown, and > gets darker the longer it is left out in the open. Since blood turns brown > as it dries, it makes sense to me that meat should get browner, not redder > when left out. The meat's myoglobin readily changes color depending on its immediate environment. Exposure to light and oxygen causes its color to fade. Vacuum sealing helps slow this process since a good deal of the oxygen is removed from the package, but the immediate exposure to oxygen after cutting, and light both before and after packaging, eventually affect even vacuum-sealed meat. Vacuum sealers are not cheap, so many small-scale meat processors do not use them to seal slaughtered meat, but use paper or shrink sealing instead. Paper helps reduce light obviously, but doesn't do a whole lot for oxygen exposure. Shrink sealing reduces the oxygen exposure, and if you are buying from a farm for your freezer, light is not a problem either as it will not be sitting in a lighted display case for days. > Does anyone know if this VERY RED meat has been sprayed with something to > make it look more appetizing in the grocery meat dept? Big commercial processors use modified-atmosphere vacuum packaging, sometimes even with foil (latter to prevent light and permeability of oxygen through the packaging medium). The modified atmosphere is an inert gas, such as nitrogen or carbon dioxide, that displaces any residual oxygen in the package and helps the meat retain that bright " fresh " color even longer. Modified atmosphere vacuum sealers are VERY expensive, so you will definitely not find these in your local meat abattoir either. Meats in a modified-atmosphere package may retain their color longer when sitting out in the air because they have had less exposure to oxygen beforehand. They may actually retain some of the inert gas on their surface before it's displaced by oxygen in the air, but this is a guess on my part. These meats will eventually turn brownish-gray, just slower. One last thing that I can think of contributing to meat color retention is treatment with nitrites, or curing. This is why cured hams are always pink. A ham that has not been cured (technically a fresh leg roast, if not cured) would be brown or gray after cooking/smoking. But, eventually, light and oxygen have their dulling effect on nitrite-cured meats as well. Changing (darkening) color of meats do not effect the nutrition provided the meat is fresh or stored within recommended standard storage times. It's purely a merchandizing thing for consumers who tend to think " Red = fresh " . Any mainstream commercial practice of adding red dye to livestock feed or dying the cut meat red is just a myth. Kimberlie West Wind Farms Organic & Grassfed Meats & Poultry http://www.grassorganic.com Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 29, 2002 Report Share Posted December 29, 2002 In a message dated 12/29/02 2:49:48 AM Eastern Standard Time, chrisb05@... writes: > I'm pretty sure all commercially grown meat is dyed red after they cut out > all the tumours and stuff. Some farmers even feed their cattle feed with red > > dye in it, so i've been told, Chris Interesting you mention... just read a Mercola article to find that farmed salmon is actually GRAY in color, but they are fed synthetic dies to render pink flesh!!! Chris ____ " What can one say of a soul, of a heart, filled with compassion? It is a heart which burns with love for every creature: for human beings, birds, and animals, for serpents and for demons. The thought of them and the sight of them make the tears of the saint flow. And this immense and intense compassion, which flows from the heart of the saints, makes them unable to bear the sight of the smallest, most insignificant wound in any creature. Thus they pray ceaselessly, with tears, even for animals, for enemies of the truth, and for those who do them wrong. " --Saint Isaac the Syrian Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 30, 2002 Report Share Posted December 30, 2002 Thanks for the info, whats your backgroud if you don't mind me asking, cause you seem to know what your talking about. Whats your response to the reports on 'sea samon' being circulated currently? thankyou, chris >From: " Ralph or Kimberlie Cole <wwfarms@...> " ><wwfarms@...> >Reply- > >Subject: Re: Very Red Meat >Date: Sun, 29 Dec 2002 18:49:57 -0000 > >--- In , " Braun " <paul@a...> >wrote: > > I've noticed (but yet to document) that beef (steaks or ground) >from a store > > is usually VERY bright red. > >The bright red just-slaughtered " fresh meat " color so appealing to >mainstream consumers in the grocery is the result of a meat protein >called myoglobin. The myoglobin content varies depending on the >species, sex, and age of an animal, even the particular muscle. >Beef has more myoglobin than pork, so beef is characteristically >redder than pork. And mature beef has more myoglobin than young >beef. Chicken has very little myoglobin, but more in its " dark " >meat than in its " white " meat. > > > Meat that I occasionally get from my Dad's farm is darker, almost >brown, and > > gets darker the longer it is left out in the open. Since blood >turns brown > > as it dries, it makes sense to me that meat should get browner, >not redder > > when left out. > >The meat's myoglobin readily changes color depending on its >immediate environment. Exposure to light and oxygen causes its >color to fade. Vacuum sealing helps slow this process since a good >deal of the oxygen is removed from the package, but the immediate >exposure to oxygen after cutting, and light both before and after >packaging, eventually affect even vacuum-sealed meat. Vacuum >sealers are not cheap, so many small-scale meat processors do not >use them to seal slaughtered meat, but use paper or shrink sealing >instead. Paper helps reduce light obviously, but doesn't do a whole >lot for oxygen exposure. Shrink sealing reduces the oxygen >exposure, and if you are buying from a farm for your freezer, light >is not a problem either as it will not be sitting in a lighted >display case for days. > > > Does anyone know if this VERY RED meat has been sprayed with >something to > > make it look more appetizing in the grocery meat dept? > >Big commercial processors use modified-atmosphere vacuum packaging, >sometimes even with foil (latter to prevent light and permeability >of oxygen through the packaging medium). The modified atmosphere is >an inert gas, such as nitrogen or carbon dioxide, that displaces any >residual oxygen in the package and helps the meat retain that >bright " fresh " color even longer. Modified atmosphere vacuum >sealers are VERY expensive, so you will definitely not find these in >your local meat abattoir either. > >Meats in a modified-atmosphere package may retain their color longer >when sitting out in the air because they have had less exposure to >oxygen beforehand. They may actually retain some of the inert gas >on their surface before it's displaced by oxygen in the air, but >this is a guess on my part. These meats will eventually turn >brownish-gray, just slower. > >One last thing that I can think of contributing to meat color >retention is treatment with nitrites, or curing. This is why cured >hams are always pink. A ham that has not been cured (technically a >fresh leg roast, if not cured) would be brown or gray after >cooking/smoking. But, eventually, light and oxygen have their >dulling effect on nitrite-cured meats as well. > >Changing (darkening) color of meats do not effect the nutrition >provided the meat is fresh or stored within recommended standard >storage times. It's purely a merchandizing thing for consumers who >tend to think " Red = fresh " . Any mainstream commercial practice of >adding red dye to livestock feed or dying the cut meat red is just a >myth. > >Kimberlie >West Wind Farms >Organic & Grassfed Meats & Poultry >http://www.grassorganic.com > > _________________________________________________________________ STOP MORE SPAM with the new MSN 8 and get 3 months FREE*. http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail & xAPID=42 & PS=47575 & PI=7324 & DI=7474 & SU\ = http://www.hotmail.msn.com/cgi-bin/getmsg & HL=1216hotmailtaglines_stopmorespam_3m\ f Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 30, 2002 Report Share Posted December 30, 2002 Do you know this for a fact? I recently read the list of ingredients on a package of bacon sold at Whole Foods (don't remember the brand - I didn't buy it) and it stated that they use beets for coloring. <Any mainstream commercial practice of adding red dye to livestock feed or dying the cut meat red is just a myth.> Kimberlie West Wind Farms Organic & Grassfed Meats & Poultry http://www.grassorganic.com Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 30, 2002 Report Share Posted December 30, 2002 Hi This just happened to be one topic I actually thought I might know just a little bit about to contribute!! I have learned an awful lot from you all. The background I use the least is a biology degree, but the organic chemistry I took helps me understand the function of the heme group of the myoglobin and how it can be easily displaced. The background I use the most is my farming experience - we have raised meats and poultry organically for over 10 years - and this has been the biggest education of my life. The practical background that helps me understand changes in meat color and what causes them in order to produce an appealing final meat or poultry product, was my husband's and my one-on-one work with a meat specialist at the University of Tennessee. At U.T., we worked in the meat lab trying various secondary processing techniques for our farm's meats and poultry, such as organic sausage making, attempts (unsuccessful) at getting a true cured flavor in a pork leg without nitrites, marinating, reformulated roasts, etc. We even evaluated some packaging techniques. We've followed up this lab work by doing quite a bit of our own studying on meat processing techniques in preparation for completing a small organic meat processing faciity for our farm's meats. In consideration of this meat processing facility, I have also investigated the prices on the vacuum sealers and other packaging methods, and the benefits/draw-backs of each kind. Oh yeah, I'm also trained in HACCP (USDA's Hazard Analysis and Critical Control Point methodology for food safety programs). On the sea salmon, that may be true. I don't know. I'm in Tennessee, you know - not alot of salmon around here. But I thought fresh- caught salmon was pink in color. I know there are very few regulations on fish and seafood, so you've got to be careful about knowing the source of the fish and seafood you eat. We eat the fish out of our farm's pond, and it has very little myoglobin. :-> Kimberlie West Wind Farms Organic & Grassfed Meats & Poultry http://www.grassorganic.com > > Thanks for the info, whats your backgroud if you don't mind me asking, cause > you seem to know what your talking about. > > Whats your response to the reports on 'sea samon' being circulated > currently? thankyou, chris > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 30, 2002 Report Share Posted December 30, 2002 ----- Original Message ----- From: <michelle.pinkowski@...> > Do you know this for a fact? I recently read the list of ingredients > on a package of bacon sold at Whole Foods (don't remember the brand - > I didn't buy it) and it stated that they use beets for coloring. Nitrite-free bacon, right? Without artificial coloring, nitrite-free cured pork has a grayish color which most people find unappetizing. I'd expect them to dye traditionally cured bacon regardless of what they do with beef. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 30, 2002 Report Share Posted December 30, 2002 I've never heard of ANY commercial or non-commercial producer legitimately feeding livestock feed with dyes in it to cattle in order to color the final meat product. There's alot of really horrible things going on in the commercial meat industry, but I am pretty confident this particular one is not happening. You'd see color in their cud when they regergitated it, which would stain their tongues and mouth, but this doesn't happen. It would also have a coloring effect on their fat and hides, which are valuable by-products to the industry in their natural color, but not too valuable in red. For after-slaughter meat, I was thinking more of whole fresh beef roasts when I said no dyes, since this is what was questionned in the original message. It is not industry practice to dye single-ingredient-type, fresh beef cuts after cutting. HOWEVER...meats processed beyond simple cutting can be, and often are, dyed with natural or synthetic colorants, have flavor enhancers added, all kinds of preservatives, chemicals, spices, etc. etc. If ANY of these things are added, FDA and USDA make them list it on the label. Therefore, the Whole Foods bacon says beet juice and whatever. If a whole, fresh beef roast were dyed, it would have to list the colorant on the label. Kimberlie West Wind Farms Organic & Grassfed Meats & Poultry http://www.grassorganic.com > Do you know this for a fact? I recently read the list of ingredients > on a package of bacon sold at Whole Foods (don't remember the brand - > I didn't buy it) and it stated that they use beets for coloring. > > > > > <Any mainstream commercial practice of adding red dye to livestock > feed or dying the cut meat red is just a myth.> > > Kimberlie > West Wind Farms > Organic & Grassfed Meats & Poultry > http://www.grassorganic.com Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 30, 2002 Report Share Posted December 30, 2002 Sounds like you should write a book! (I'd buy it) Irene At 09:05 AM 12/30/02, you wrote: >Hi > >This just happened to be one topic I actually thought I might know >just a little bit about to contribute!! I have learned an awful lot >from you all. The background I use the least is a biology degree, >but the organic chemistry I took helps me understand the function of >the heme group of the myoglobin and how it can be easily displaced. >The background I use the most is my farming experience - we have >raised meats and poultry organically for over 10 years - and this >has been the biggest education of my life. The practical background >that helps me understand changes in meat color and what causes them >in order to produce an appealing final meat or poultry product, was >my husband's and my one-on-one work with a meat specialist at the >University of Tennessee. At U.T., we worked in the meat lab trying >various secondary processing techniques for our farm's meats and >poultry, such as organic sausage making, attempts (unsuccessful) at >getting a true cured flavor in a pork leg without nitrites, >marinating, reformulated roasts, etc. We even evaluated some >packaging techniques. We've followed up this lab work by doing >quite a bit of our own studying on meat processing techniques in >preparation for completing a small organic meat processing faciity >for our farm's meats. In consideration of this meat processing >facility, I have also investigated the prices on the vacuum sealers >and other packaging methods, and the benefits/draw-backs of each >kind. Oh yeah, I'm also trained in HACCP (USDA's Hazard Analysis >and Critical Control Point methodology for food safety programs). > >On the sea salmon, that may be true. I don't know. I'm in Tennessee, >you know - not alot of salmon around here. But I thought fresh- >caught salmon was pink in color. I know there are very >few regulations on fish and seafood, so you've got to be careful >about knowing the source of the fish and seafood you eat. We eat >the fish out of our farm's pond, and it has very little myoglobin. >:-> > >Kimberlie >West Wind Farms >Organic & Grassfed Meats & Poultry ><http://www.grassorganic.com>http://www.grassorganic.com > > > > > > > Thanks for the info, whats your backgroud if you don't mind me >asking, cause > > you seem to know what your talking about. > > > > Whats your response to the reports on 'sea samon' being circulated > > currently? thankyou, chris > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 30, 2002 Report Share Posted December 30, 2002 > " pinksmastiffs " wrote: > > Do you know this for a fact? I recently read the list of ingredients > on a package of bacon sold at Whole Foods (don't remember the brand - > I didn't buy it) and it stated that they use beets for coloring. > > > > <Any mainstream commercial practice of adding red dye to livestock > feed or dying the cut meat red is just a myth.> , The use of anything which imparts a red color to meat is strictly limited by the Code of Federal Regulations regarding meat processing. Not only would those ingredients have to be revealed on the label but much of the time they are prohibited even if they were to be revealed. This is a reason why Paprika usage is restricted to certain items and situations. Regarding beets - beets, along with lettuce, spinach and some other common vegetables are sources of relatively high amounts of naturally occurring nitrates. Sea salt also contains significant amounts of nitrates. These ingredients, when used in a " raw, cured " fermented dry or semi-dry sausage such as a summer sausage or pepperoni can provide a " natural " source of nitrate which over the time in which the meat is stored/cured/aged are converted within the meat into nitrites which are a principle agent in preventing the growth of botulism spores. If you see a product which has only nitrate on the label then you know it was aged in order to make it " safe " to eat (by USDA standards). [it still contains nitrites, but they were produced by natural changes in the meat rather than being added directly to the meat. Over time, enough of the nitrate will be converted into nitrite to make it " legally safe " .] If you see a product with nitrite on the label then you know it was produced by a quick method. We have been working on developing no added nitrate fermented sausages as well and I have been working with the meat science department at Cornell to come up with some processes that will produce the desired quality. Just a couple of weeks ago I tasted two summer sausages that were produced by a class of students at Cornell using spinach and lettuce as sources of nitrate. They were very good although a little too salty. I also know of others who are experimenting with beet powder in hot dogs and other sausages so that they will not be white or gray in color and will pass USDA requirements with regard to nitrite/botulism HACCP Critical Control Points. I am not quite sure how you would use beets in a bacon. Beet powder could be used as a source of nitrate but since bacon is not a ground, chopped or cominuted product I would think that it would present an unappealing appearance. I would understand it better if the ingredient were beet extract or beet juice rather than beets, implying the inclusion of beet solids. These solutions could be injected into the bacon as is used in most conventional bacon processing. The bacon we produce, which does not contain nitrates or nitrites, is labeled with a warning that it is not cured or rather specifically " UNCURED BACON " Also are you sure that it said it was used for coloring or rather that it was simply an ingredient? The USDA is usually very concerned about an uncured product (gray) looking cured (red). There are exceptions to this but I would be curious to know the exact wording on the label or better yet a picture of the label. * * * * * * * * * * * and Vicky Lynn Palmer Genesis Farming Quality Grassfed Meats and Poultry 259 Eastman Lane Corinth, VT 05039 palmers@... 802-439-5599 * * * * * * * * * * * Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 31, 2002 Report Share Posted December 31, 2002 Kimberlie, Thanks so much for your input (knowledge & wisdom) on this topic. Sounds like commercial hamburger is more likely to have additives than roasts or steaks. - Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 31, 2002 Report Share Posted December 31, 2002 Wow, you have lots of great info. The bacon I saw contains beet powder and the guy behind the meat counter said it was for coloring. The label doesn't state what any of the ingredients are used for. I took the meat guy's info at face value - I realize that the guys behind the meat counters these days aren't the good old butchers of yesterday. I did see some uncured bacon next to it and it did have a grayish (although not unappetizing) color to it. I get my bacon from a farm and they say it is only smoked (no additives). It isn't as red as the nitrite stuff and it isn't very gray - I would say it's somewhere in between. I don't eat a lot of it, but it sure is good. I'm glad you pointed out nitrates versus nitrites. I had never even noticed the two different words before. Very interesting stuff. This will help me read my labels with more understanding. I really appreciate your taking the time to respond. Happy New Year! <The use of anything which imparts a red color to meat is strictly limited by the Code of Federal Regulations regarding meat processing. Not only would those ingredients have to be revealed on the label but much of the time they are prohibited even if they were to be revealed. I also know of others who are experimenting with beet powder in hot dogs and other sausages so that they will not be white or gray in color and will pass USDA requirements with regard to nitrite/botulism HACCP Critical Control Points. I am not quite sure how you would use beets in a bacon. Beet powder could be used as a source of nitrate but since bacon is not a ground, chopped or cominuted product I would think that it would present an unappealing appearance. I would understand it better if the ingredient were beet extract or beet juice rather than beets, implying the inclusion of beet solids. These solutions could be injected into the bacon as is used in most conventional bacon processing. The bacon we produce, which does not contain nitrates or nitrites, is labeled with a warning that it is not cured or rather specifically " UNCURED BACON " . Also are you sure that it said it was used for coloring or rather that it was simply an ingredient? The USDA is usually very concerned about an uncured product (gray) looking cured (red). There are exceptions to this but I would be curious to know the exact wording on the label or better yet a picture of the label.> and Vicky Lynn Palmer Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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