FOS (was probiotics, and really, REALLY bad customer service)

[Guest guest]

>where did you find this info?

My apologies for not getting back to you sooner. It's been a bit hectic

what with Christmas and all, and to be honest, I forgot to look for my

references. Anyway, the page I gave Kris is referenced and is a very good

start: http://www.breakingtheviciouscycle.org/faq/fos.html

--------------->Thanks for gettting back to me on that . I suspected it

was Gottschall's hypothesis :-) So far, I have not been too impressed with

her ideas, so i tend to scrutinize her work closely before believing it. I

bought BTVC on your recommendation, and I do find her credentials

impressive, but still question some of her assertions. Guess I will have to

read through some of her references on this page re FOS.

OK, checked some of them out. Hmm...I'm confused...she listed 14 references

at the bottom of the page. I randomly checked 4 of them, and all four seem

to *refute* her premise that FOS is 'bad'. According to these four that i

randomly selected from her list of references, the net effect of FOS is that

it significantly increases the number of bifidobacteria and leads to

microflora ratios in which bifidobacteria predominate. One of the studies

found that it also " maintained " colonies of e.coli and clostridium (both

normal residents of the GI tract that can have harmful effects if their

colonies OVERgrow). But no mention of OVERgrowth of any pathogenic strain.

And another study found FOS *decreased* clostridia. But again, there was

nothing in the abstracts I read that suggested that FOS promoted the

*overgrowth* of pathogenic species..? And all concluded that it's primary

effect is bifidogenic - substantially increasing the growth of

bifidobacteria. While increasing bifido colonies may not be necessary for

the average healthy person, it may be a good thing for the sick and/or

elderly. Some research has shown that bifido colonies decrease in both

humans and dogs as they age. (This is one reason I've specifically looked

for bifidobacteria products for my senior dog with colon issues).

I do believe she may be correct in stating that there is still much that is

unknown about the microbiology of the gut and how this ecosystem works, and

that perhaps all is not known about the effects of promoting the growth of a

specific genus or species. However, when the gut microflora is already

altered to favor pathogenic strains, I think it's reasonable to consider

countering that by increasing beneficial strains that create an environment

hostile to the pathogenic strains. Also, I haven't read all the research on

this, so a lot more could be known to microbiologists than *I'm* aware of.

Maybe the other ten references on Gottschall's page support her premise and

by pure chance I selected ones that don't. But I find it quite odd that my

random selection of approx. almost a third of her references did not support

her premise.

>but the formulations using FOS that I'm aware of are

>actually some of the better manufactures/products on the market including

>Steve's raw food and Wysong.

And similarly, the brands of human products using FOS and Inulin are often

some of the best ones. It's one of the latest health food fads, and lots

of well-meaning people and companies are jumping on it, but that doesn't

make it good.

------------------>yep...am aware that it's being used as a marketing tool

by some manufacturers.

>I'm planning on

>kefir-fermenting it when i get my new grains.

I don't see the point in feeding a dog with digestive problems ANY grains,

but if you're going to try them, I'd definitely go with lacto-fermenting,

because that more closely resembles the pre-digestion that would occur in

the wild in the stomachs of prey animals before any canine would ever reach

the grain foods.

---------->I was referring to *kefir* grains, which are not actually

*grains* but for some reason are often referred to as grains. However, since

there's a body of research showing that dogs with digestive issues improve

on certain types of fiber, I have no qualms about carefully using some

grains in mokie's diet to deal with her GI issues. When her digestive

problems were really bad this summer and the vet said she had colitis, I

started out with no grains/no fiber - wanting to try the SCD approach. Maybe

I didn't do it right, but bottom line is she got worse. Maybe if I had

figured out the correct antibiotic at that time she might not have kept

going downhill, but she did. She's doing much better now with brown rice and

flaxseeds as a fiber source. I plan to keep her on the rice for some time,

although i plan to get her off the flaxseeds soon (both are in a commercial

food she's still getting for part of her diet.) as I mentioned before, it

was on a no-grain diet that mokie developed gastrointestinal problems. I'm

pretty well-versed in the positives and negatives of grains so do select

carefully what type and how much I feed. I try not to argue too much with

success, and so far this is what's worked best for her :-) So unless I find

some other method of keeping mokie's GI tract functioning well, she will

continue to get grain and/or plant fibers. Although I'm always keep my eyes

open for other ways to improve her GI function.

In regards to FOS, this is what I know so far:

1. My holistic vet (DVM), who is also a Naturopath, recommended it for my

dogs. My approach to their health is somewhat different than hers, but her

suggestions do carry weight with me.

2. Elaine Gottschall has a hypothesis that FOS is should not be used. She

doesn't specify whether she thinks it's OK to eat foods that contain FOS,

though. She also doesn't differentiate between types of FOS. So I'm not sure

if her issue is mainly with the isolation and concentration of it being used

in probiotic products? That's the impression I get anyway. So far, I have

found some of her assertions questionable, although the SCD seems to work

for some individuals (but not others). Still, I find her work interesting

and will keep an open mind about it.

3. I spoke with a Microbiologist (PhD) recently, who taught microbiology for

20 years. The first thing he told me is that a lot of the probiotic

information out there is 'smoke and mirrors' - IOW, much marketing hype

rather than science-based. Much the same that Gotschall states. Of course,

you and I, and many others already know that. But it's good to hear it from

an experienced microbiologist as well :-) He formulated a probiotic product

for canines, specifically targeted at dogs' needs. During our conversation,

I asked him about FOS feeding 'pathogenic' bacteria. He told me that *true*

FOS *cannot* feed pathogenic bacteria, but other types of FOS can.

Unfortunately, I had to cut the conversation short, so couldn't get into the

details. When I talk to him next time, I'll ask more about this.

4. The four abstracts below that Gottschall references, suggest that FOS

does indeed alter colonic microflora in favor of bifidobacteria.

I've read lots of marketing hype too, but pretty much ignore it. So this

list is my reference point thus far. Although I was actively avoiding FOS

when I was doing the SCD approach, I haven't actually found anything that

convinces me I need to do that. If I DO find anything convincing then I'll

definitely reconsider.

Below are the four references from Gottschall's page that I checked out.

---------------------------------------------

This one concludes that FOS is primarily bifidogenic (increasing the

bifidobacteria colonies). Quote:

" Thus, both inulin and oligofructose have most of the characteristics of a

dietary fiber and the proposal is made to classify them as such. Moreover,

they are bifidogenic factors, because, due to still unknown reasons, they

are primarily fermented by bifidobacteria. "

Dietary fiber, inulin, and oligofructose: a review comparing their

physiological effects.

http://research.bmn.com/medline/jbrowse/record?uid=MDLN.93236728

Abstract

Dietary fiber is a general term. It covers a wide variety of substances that

belong to the family of carbohydrates that resist hydrolysis by human

alimentary enzymes but are fermented by colonic microflora. The main

physiological effects of dietary fiber are primarily on gastric emptying and

small intestinal transit time, resulting in an improved glucose tolerance

and a decreased digestion of starch: second, on colonic transit time and

large bowel functions due to fermentation by ceco-colonic microbial flora or

bulking action. The so-called soluble dietary fibers are fermented to a

large extent by a wide variety of anaerobic bacteria that result in an

increase in bacterial biomass, an increase in fecal mass, a change in

intracolonic pH, and production of short chain fatty acids and various gases

as metabolic end products. The insoluble fibers are only marginally

fermented: they serve almost exclusively as bulking agents that result in

shorter transit time and increased fecal mass. The short chain fatty acids

resulting from the colonic fermentation of dietary fiber are largely

absorbed via the portal blood and reach both the liver and the peripheral

tissues. They induce changes in glucose and fat metabolism leading to

post-prandial hypoglycemia and long-term hypolipidemia. Inulin and

oligofructose are fructans with a degree of polymerization of 2 to 60 and 2

to 20, respectively. Due to the structural conformation of their osidic

bridge (beta 2-1), they both resist the hydrolysis by human alimentary

enzymes. Moreover, when reaching the colon, both inulin and oligofructose

are almost quantitatively fermented almost exclusively by colonic

bifidobacteria and bacteroides. Such an extensive fermentation causes an

increase in fecal bacterial biomass, a decrease in ceco-colonic pH, and

produces a large amount of fermentation products among which the short chain

fatty acids that exert systemic effects on lipid metabolism. Thus, both

inulin and oligofructose have most of the characteristics of a dietary fiber

and the proposal is made to classify them as such. Moreover, they are

bifidogenic factors, because, due to still unknown reasons, they are

primarily fermented by bifidobacteria. It is concluded from this review that

" nondigestible fructo-oligosaccharides, " even though they are not included

in the carbohydrate fraction that is quantified as dietary fiber by classic

analytical methods, have most of the physiological effects of a dietary

fiber.(ABSTRACT TRUNCATED AT 400 WORDS)

---------------------------

This one concludes " A 15-g.day-1 dietary addition of oligofructose or inulin

led to Bifidobacterium becoming the numerically predominant genus in feces. "

Selective stimulation of bifidobacteria in the human colon by oligofructose

and inulin.

http://research.bmn.com/medline/jbrowse/record?uid=MDLN.95212869

Abstract

BACKGROUND/AIMS: Oligofructose and inulin are naturally occurring

indigestible carbohydrates. In vitro they selectively stimulate the growth

of species of Bifidobacterium, a genus of bacteria considered beneficial to

health. This study was designed to determine their effects on the large

bowel microflora and colonic function in vivo. METHODS: Eight subjects

participated in a 45-day study during which they ate controlled diets. For

the middle 15 days, 15 g.day-1 oligofructose was substituted for 15 g.day-1

sucrose. Four of these subjects went on to a further period with 15 g.day-1

inulin. Bowel habit, transit time, stool composition, breath H2 and CH4, and

the predominant genera of colonic bacteria were measured. RESULTS: Both

oligofructose and inulin significantly increased bifidobacteria from 8.8 to

9.5 log10 g stool-1 and 9.2 to 10.1 log10 g stool-1, respectively, whereas

bacteroides, clostridia, and fusobacteria decreased when subjects were fed

oligofructose, and gram-positive cocci decreased when subjects were fed

inulin. Total bacterial counts were unchanged. Fecal wet and dry matter,

nitrogen, and energy excretion increased with both substrates, as did breath

H2. Little change in fecal short-chain fatty acids and breath CH4 was

observed. CONCLUSIONS: A 15-g.day-1 dietary addition of oligofructose or

inulin led to Bifidobacterium becoming the numerically predominant genus in

feces. Thus, small changes in diet can alter the balance of colonic bacteria

towards a potentially healthier microflora.

----------------------------------

This one is reporting a positive benefit, as well. although, other types of

bacteria are mentioned (other than bifido), the sentence structure doesn't

make sense.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve & db=PubMed & list_ui

ds=3657917 & dopt=Abstract

Effect of fructo-oligosaccharides on intestinal microflora

Mitsuoka T, Hidaka H, Eida T.

Department of Biomedical Science, Faculty of Agriculture, University of

Tokyo, Japan.

Fructo-oligosaccharides are widely distributed in plants such as onions,

asparagus, wheat etc., and obtained from sucrose by the action of

fructosyltransferase. They are not hydrolyzed by human digestive enzymes,

but are utilized by intestinal bacteria such as bifidobacteria. Bacteroides

fragilis group, peptostreptococci and klebsiellae. In the experiment with 23

patients (73 +/- 9 years old), improvement of fecal microflora was observed

by oral administration of fructo-oligosaccharides 8 g per day for two weeks:

the population of bifidobacteria in feces increased about 10 times compared

before the administration; average pH of stool showed 0.3 lower than that

before administration.

-----------------------------------------------

This one also concluded that FOS and inulin have a sum positive benefit on

colonic microflora profile, having the biggest effect on bifido populations,

but also 'maintaining' populations of e. coli and clostridium. But

apparently not *increasing* their numbers.

Effects of the in vitro fermentation of oligofructose and inulin by bacteria

growing in the human large intestine.

http://research.bmn.com/medline/jbrowse/record?uid=MDLN.94042566

Abstract

The in vitro fermentability of oligofructose and inulin was compared with a

range of reference carbohydrates by measuring bacterial end-product

formation in batch culture. Short chain fatty acid and gas formation

indicated that these substrates, which occur naturally in the diet and reach

the colon in a largely intact form, were utilized by mixed populations of

gut bacteria. Bacterial growth data showed that oligofructose and inulin

exerted a preferential stimulatory effect on numbers of the health-promoting

genus Bifidobacterium, whilst maintaining populations of potential pathogens

(Escherichia coli, Clostridium) at relatively low levels. Pure culture

studies confirmed the enhanced ability of bifidobacteria to utilize these

substrates in comparison with glucose. Batch culture experiments

demonstrated that the growth of Bifidobacterium infantis had an inhibitory

effect towards E. coli and Clostridium perfringens. Potentially, an increase

in the concentration of these substrates in the diet may therefore improve

the composition of the large intestinal microflora and have positive effects

on the quality of the Western diet.

Suze Fisher

Lapdog Design, Inc.

Web Design & Development

http://members.bellatlantic.net/~vze3shjg/

mailto:s.fisher22@...