RE: Re: candida/coconut

[Guest guest]

Hi Jo,

I've only been doing this for two weeks. Stick to it??? I want this over

with ASAP!!! I've been eating zuchinni, kale, and salad and that's pretty

much it for carbs. I've been ignoring butter because I read some websites

saying it's fine and I don't think it has much in the way of sugar. Even

severely lactose intolerant people can handle butter fine, but not cream,

which seems to indicate it has no or negligible lactose. I've been making

more bone broths, at least two cups of bone broth a day in the form of

vegetable soup. I used butter until I got my palm butter in, and now I use

that. I have the most energy when I include a moderate amount of grains in

my diet such as a half a piece of sprouted bread with a meal. I've been low

on energy this week. And to tell the truth, my eczema got a lot better with

a couple days of the protocol, while I was drinking milk for the first two

days and then lots and lots of homemade cream cheese, but when I completely

cut out dairy my eczema worsened a little bit. It's complicated because soon

after that I ate a lot of lentil soup for a few days because I didn't realize

lentils were a " starch " and not a " vegetable. " I do worry about calcium

especially with my teeth and want to get the heck off this diet as soon as I

can.

Chris

In a message dated 3/13/03 5:09:03 PM Eastern Standard Time,

jopollack2001@... writes:

> am also on anti-candida diet - I'd be interested to hear how you do

> it, and swap any tips if you have any!

>

> I used to do a super-low-carb anti-yeast diet, but have found it

> easier to allow myself some carbs in the form of stachy veg, whole

> grains etc as I can stick to it longer. I eat around 60g carbs from

> these sources, but eat non-starchy veg (eg salad) freely. I do feel

> better, and the symptoms are certainly clearing up, it's just not

> happening as quickly as it did last time I did anti-yeast (totally

> strict about absolutely everything! It was impossible to stick to

> for more than a week).

>

> I find the hardest thing is no dairy = and I do sneak some butter on

> my veg occasionally. I worry about calcium when I'm dairy-free.

____

" What can one say of a soul, of a heart, filled with compassion? It is a

heart which burns with love for every creature: for human beings, birds, and

animals, for serpents and for demons. The thought of them and the sight of

them make the tears of the saint flow. And this immense and intense

compassion, which flows from the heart of the saints, makes them unable to

bear the sight of the smallest, most insignificant wound in any creature.

Thus they pray ceaselessly, with tears, even for animals, for enemies of the

truth, and for those who do them wrong. "

--Saint Isaac the Syrian

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 3/13/03 5:11:27 PM Eastern Standard Time,

jopollack2001@... writes:

> Thinking back, the first time I did an anti-yeast diet, I did use

> some coconut milk in a curry about a week in and I bloated up like a

> balloon! So I figured coconut milk was to be avoided. It could be

> you are less sensitive to it - I would suggest you try it and see how

> it affects you

I tried it and my skin cleared up a littl better Boy with no sugar for a

couple weeks it tastes so sweeeeeeet!!! It was like heaven! With one gram of

sugar!!! Lol... but if it was helping it was the lauric/capric/caprylic

acids so I'll use the awful puke-tasting Spectrum coconut oil until it clears

up to be better safe than sorry with the sugar.

Chris

____

" What can one say of a soul, of a heart, filled with compassion? It is a

heart which burns with love for every creature: for human beings, birds, and

animals, for serpents and for demons. The thought of them and the sight of

them make the tears of the saint flow. And this immense and intense

compassion, which flows from the heart of the saints, makes them unable to

bear the sight of the smallest, most insignificant wound in any creature.

Thus they pray ceaselessly, with tears, even for animals, for enemies of the

truth, and for those who do them wrong. "

--Saint Isaac the Syrian

[Guest guest]

Ok, here's what I often will have:

Three eggs, raw or scrambled fried in palm butter, a steamer full of kale

with palm butter on it.

Lunch: sauerkraut (accpetable???), Two cups of vegetable soup (beef bone

stock, carrots, zuchinni, onions, garlic, celery, spices) , one quart of

salad with several tbsp olive oil and a little vinegar, celery sticks dipped

in palm butter, several servings of coconut milk for " desert " (did this

yesterday).

Dinner: half pound of salmon, big salad in a pyrex bowl, lots of olive oil

and a little vinegar (is this acceptable?)

Chris

In a message dated 3/13/03 5:51:44 PM Eastern Standard Time,

jopollack2001@... writes:

> Here's a typical day for me:

>

> B: 2 boiled eggs, raw carrot, 2 oatcakes (conservation grade oats, no

> preservatives) or lightly boiled mangetout or baby sweetcorn. (total

> 15g carbs, not incl carrot or eggs)

>

> L: meat that I cooked myself (ie not from a deli counter) with salad

> and salad dressing (shop bought), with carbs from the oatcakes, or

> organic rice cakes or corn crackers. (total 15-17g carbs not

> including the salad or meat)

>

> S: meat with a stick of celery or raw carrot and an oatcake or 2

> again. (total 7-15g carbs)

>

> D: freshly cooked meat with some non-starchy veg and a carb item such

> as the crackers, or stewed rhubarb. Sometimes I'll put butter on my

> veg.

>

> I drink lots of water, I don't drink caffeine, I use acidophillus

> supplements and grapefuit seed extract.

>

> So, I know exactly how many carbs I am eating (crackers with a coutn

> on the packet help me to control it) I eat no dairy (except butter

> very occasionally), very little sweet stuff. I don't eat mushrooms

> or sugar and stick to low glycaemic carbs. Occasionally I'll grab a

> handful of almonds or pecans if I'm stuck for a snack and in a

> hurry. Basically, I try not to eat anything that will feed the

> yeast. I know I have a problem with dairy, and I'm pretty sure

> that's the main cause of my candida symptoms.

>

> I eat just under a pound of meat per day, and unlimited non-starchy

> veg. The salad dressing is the worst thing in my diet IMO.

>

> Becuase I have to prepare 3 meals a day and I'm a working woman, I

> keep my foods simple. I add herbs and spices for flavour, and cook

> in duck fat (or butter!) which tastes great. I even find it easy

> enough to eat out a few times a month and stick pretty much to plan.

>

> I am seeing big improvements in my symptoms.

>

____

" What can one say of a soul, of a heart, filled with compassion? It is a

heart which burns with love for every creature: for human beings, birds, and

animals, for serpents and for demons. The thought of them and the sight of

them make the tears of the saint flow. And this immense and intense

compassion, which flows from the heart of the saints, makes them unable to

bear the sight of the smallest, most insignificant wound in any creature.

Thus they pray ceaselessly, with tears, even for animals, for enemies of the

truth, and for those who do them wrong. "

--Saint Isaac the Syrian

[Guest guest]

I used to have eczema problems, really bad. Every winter my hands, arms and legs

especially would be red and broke out. As I learned about candida in High school

I put myself on a special diet. For three months I ate no yeast bread and no

sugar and no mushrooms. I did eat some fruit. My excema cleared up wonderfully

and I have not had much of a problem since! (Maybe a patch here or there during

the holidays)

a

----- Original Message -----

From: jopollack2001

Sent: Thursday, March 13, 2003 4:49 PM

Subject: Re: candida/coconut

> ----- Original Message -----

> From: ChrisMasterjohn@a...

> If you wouldn't mind and if you have the time, could you please

elaborate on

> your experience with candida and what you believe the ideal anti-

candida diet

> to be?

>

Chris

Here's a typical day for me:

B: 2 boiled eggs, raw carrot, 2 oatcakes (conservation grade oats, no

preservatives) or lightly boiled mangetout or baby sweetcorn. (total

15g carbs, not incl carrot or eggs)

L: meat that I cooked myself (ie not from a deli counter) with salad

and salad dressing (shop bought), with carbs from the oatcakes, or

organic rice cakes or corn crackers. (total 15-17g carbs not

including the salad or meat)

S: meat with a stick of celery or raw carrot and an oatcake or 2

again. (total 7-15g carbs)

D: freshly cooked meat with some non-starchy veg and a carb item such

as the crackers, or stewed rhubarb. Sometimes I'll put butter on my

veg.

I drink lots of water, I don't drink caffeine, I use acidophillus

supplements and grapefuit seed extract.

So, I know exactly how many carbs I am eating (crackers with a coutn

on the packet help me to control it) I eat no dairy (except butter

very occasionally), very little sweet stuff. I don't eat mushrooms

or sugar and stick to low glycaemic carbs. Occasionally I'll grab a

handful of almonds or pecans if I'm stuck for a snack and in a

hurry. Basically, I try not to eat anything that will feed the

yeast. I know I have a problem with dairy, and I'm pretty sure

that's the main cause of my candida symptoms.

I eat just under a pound of meat per day, and unlimited non-starchy

veg. The salad dressing is the worst thing in my diet IMO.

Becuase I have to prepare 3 meals a day and I'm a working woman, I

keep my foods simple. I add herbs and spices for flavour, and cook

in duck fat (or butter!) which tastes great. I even find it easy

enough to eat out a few times a month and stick pretty much to plan.

I am seeing big improvements in my symptoms.

Jo

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 3/14/03 1:46:41 AM Eastern Standard Time,

heidis@... writes:

> They say Dr. Lutz experimented

> for about 50 years in Germany with low-er carb diets, and the 72

> grams was the " magic number " -- going below that did not give

> any extra benefit, but going down to 72 " cured " lots of problems.

> Some problems showed improvement even with a higher number.

Ok, I'll start measuring corners to cut off my bread :-P

J/k Thanks Heidi. I've beend doing it a couple weeks now and hope to be

more or less *off* it in a few weeks, at least to some degree, so we'll see

how it goes.

Chris

____

" What can one say of a soul, of a heart, filled with compassion? It is a

heart which burns with love for every creature: for human beings, birds, and

animals, for serpents and for demons. The thought of them and the sight of

them make the tears of the saint flow. And this immense and intense

compassion, which flows from the heart of the saints, makes them unable to

bear the sight of the smallest, most insignificant wound in any creature.

Thus they pray ceaselessly, with tears, even for animals, for enemies of the

truth, and for those who do them wrong. "

--Saint Isaac the Syrian

[Guest guest]

>. I've been low

>on energy this week. And to tell the truth, my eczema got a lot better with

>a couple days of the protocol, while I was drinking milk for the first two

>days and then lots and lots of homemade cream cheese, but when I completely

>cut out dairy my eczema worsened a little bit. It's complicated because soon

>after that I ate a lot of lentil soup for a few days because I didn't realize

>lentils were a " starch " and not a " vegetable. " I do worry about calcium

>especially with my teeth and want to get the heck off this diet as soon as I

>can.

One thing I noticed in the last chapter of Life Without Bread was

the warning that it was best NOT to go low-carb suddenly, and

that in fact some people can die from the sudden change (mostly

older folks).

I've been working on what is the " ideal " carb

load for me (i.e. how do I feel the next day) and kind of gradually

eating fewer. But your body adapts to one way of eating (hey, maybe

your intestines even get longer :-) and suddenly changing IS really

hard on it.

Also, the LWB book recommends 72 grams as " ideal " carb intake.

Which more or less what I was eating before I got married -- I had

tortillas for tacos, and vegies and apples, but I just didn't like

starches much (too much work). They say Dr. Lutz experimented

for about 50 years in Germany with low-er carb diets, and the 72

grams was the " magic number " -- going below that did not give

any extra benefit, but going down to 72 " cured " lots of problems.

Some problems showed improvement even with a higher number.

To me that is a great thing -- because it is a lot easier to stick to

a diet that isn't so draconian.

Heidi S

[Guest guest]

Heidi-

>They say Dr. Lutz experimented

>for about 50 years in Germany with low-er carb diets, and the 72

>grams was the " magic number " -- going below that did not give

>any extra benefit, but going down to 72 " cured " lots of problems.

>Some problems showed improvement even with a higher number.

This doesn't seem to make much sense, as different people's carb

metabolisms are damaged to different degrees -- not to mention being tuned

differently just by nature. Atkins, who suggests that everyone find out

their own carb thresholds, makes much more sense to me on this point.

-

[Guest guest]

Much experience in the last 30 years has proven to me that I cannot lose

weight at more than 40 grams.

The 72 grams of carbs mentioned may be a good starting place, but I'm sure

I'm not the only one who can't lose at that level.

Judith Alta

-----Original Message-----

>. I've been low

>on energy this week. And to tell the truth, my eczema got a lot better

with

>a couple days of the protocol, while I was drinking milk for the first two

>days and then lots and lots of homemade cream cheese, but when I completely

>cut out dairy my eczema worsened a little bit. It's complicated because

soon

>after that I ate a lot of lentil soup for a few days because I didn't

realize

>lentils were a " starch " and not a " vegetable. " I do worry about calcium

>especially with my teeth and want to get the heck off this diet as soon as

I

>can.

One thing I noticed in the last chapter of Life Without Bread was

the warning that it was best NOT to go low-carb suddenly, and

that in fact some people can die from the sudden change (mostly

older folks).

I've been working on what is the " ideal " carb

load for me (i.e. how do I feel the next day) and kind of gradually

eating fewer. But your body adapts to one way of eating (hey, maybe

your intestines even get longer :-) and suddenly changing IS really

hard on it.

Also, the LWB book recommends 72 grams as " ideal " carb intake.

Which more or less what I was eating before I got married -- I had

tortillas for tacos, and vegies and apples, but I just didn't like

starches much (too much work). They say Dr. Lutz experimented

for about 50 years in Germany with low-er carb diets, and the 72

grams was the " magic number " -- going below that did not give

any extra benefit, but going down to 72 " cured " lots of problems.

Some problems showed improvement even with a higher number.

To me that is a great thing -- because it is a lot easier to stick to

a diet that isn't so draconian.

Heidi S

[Guest guest]

>This doesn't seem to make much sense, as different people's carb

>metabolisms are damaged to different degrees -- not to mention being tuned

>differently just by nature. Atkins, who suggests that everyone find out

>their own carb thresholds, makes much more sense to me on this point.

>

>-

Well, he actually talks about that, so the error is probably in my

summarization.

But his one main contention with Atkins is just that the *sudden*

changeover can

actually be life-threatening, for some people (mainly people over 45) for

exactly the

reasons you mention -- the metabolism is damaged, or at least changed. So

it's better

to start a little high and work lower.

The point I was mainly trying to make is that a lot of people think you can

be " low carb " without making draconian changes -- that you don't have to go

into ketosis to get well. And yeah, I know Atkins *says* to find your own

level, but in practice the people I know an Atkins remain obsessively low

on carbs, then suddenly rebel and go to the other extreme. For my own life,

I'm trying to find a diet that I can live with and enjoy and not feel the

need to rebel.

I agree totally that " 72 grams " is a simplification. The REALLY accurate way

is to keep a log, track all your food, and work with percentages. But even that

isn't very accurate, because the glycemic index is more important, and now THAT

is being replaced by the " glycemic load. " And I don't really believe that

all carbs

are created equal -- some are allergens, some sugars are hard to digest or

feed bacteria (ala SCD). Plus when you get into using things like " bread

units " it isn't very accurate anyway -- bread comes in all kinds of

different sizes and types. And Schwartzbein also has more variation, and

says you should vary your amount of carbs with the amount of exercise you

get. Cliff Sheats adds that carbs in the evening are worse than carbs in

the morning.

But having said all that -- this kind of simplification WORKS empirically for a

lot of people. If I were a doctor prescribing a diet to the average (100

IQ by definition)

person, using a " 6 BU " limit would probably work pretty well, it's easy to

remember

and keep in your head and you don't need a computer program to work it. I'm

tracking

my diet now with macronutrient percentages etc., and it is REALLY NICE and

telling me a lot, but I had to write a computer program to do it because

for the life of me I couldn't keep up with looking everything up and adding

it every meal. I hear they have PDA's now

for tracking food, which is a great idea and should work for more people!

Heidi S

[Guest guest]

>Ok, I'll start measuring corners to cut off my bread :-P

Of course, my recommendation would be to toss the bread

to the chickens and go with potatoes :-) The list of " candida "

symptoms is almost identical to the " gluten sensitive enteropathy "

symptoms, which is kind of interesting.

>J/k Thanks Heidi. I've beend doing it a couple weeks now and hope to be

>more or less *off* it in a few weeks, at least to some degree, so we'll see

>how it goes.

Is this just a short-term thing for candida then? I'm trying to find

a good long-term diet that I can live (in the literal sense) with.

>

Heidi S

[Guest guest]

>Much experience in the last 30 years has proven to me that I cannot lose

>weight at more than 40 grams.

>

>The 72 grams of carbs mentioned may be a good starting place, but I'm sure

>I'm not the only one who can't lose at that level.

>

>Judith Alta

The LWB book isn't really about weight loss, it is about health. They say

about half of adults lose weight at the 72 gram level -- lower than that and

you get into ketosis territory, and ketosis really is better for losing weight.

My reading is that it is less efficient, for one thing (it takes more calories,

it is a less efficient reaction, excreting ketones as " extras " . Plus, without

insulin, extra fat is more likely to be excreted than used.

But the question is a lot about what works for the individual, just

like everyone keeps saying. I think starting higher and going lower

is safer, but it is also *easier* for most people. Americans tend to

like draconian solutions -- like 600 kcal/day diets after gorging on

4000 kcal/day diets. The body builders have another approach:

figure out how many calories you are eating, then subtract 300.

That is safer, and also easier: 300 calories isn't that hard to get rid of.

Doing the same thing with carbs makes a lot of sense.

For myself, it is just very unlikely I'm going to go on a diet that

means I have to obsess about carbs, or stick to it for any great

amount of time. For those that can stay super-low-carb for a long

period of time, more power to them! But for those that say

they are " feeling rotten " and " can't wait for it to be over " , I think

their body is telling them something.

I've done super-low-carb

in the past, and it worked, but what I'm doing now is working

too, and I'm not suffering or feeling deprived. I'm building

muscle at a nice rate, sleeping well, my skin tone is great,

I'm not getting migraines, and I'm eating the foods I like

the most (coffee, wine, hashbrowns, rice crackers and anchovies!).

I DID have to give up gluten and casein, but I drink a fair

amount of water-kefir which isn't necessarily low carb.

Heidi S

[Guest guest]

Heidi-

>And yeah, I know Atkins *says* to find your own

>level, but in practice the people I know an Atkins remain obsessively low

>on carbs, then suddenly rebel and go to the other extreme

The only people I know (or have heard of) who have this problem retained

some of their fat-phobia and didn't eat enough saturated fat. I find that

as long as I get enough saturated fat, my cravings are almost entirely

gone, and I have a SERIOUSLY damaged metabolism. But if I eat too much

lean and not enough fat, well, watch out. Unfortunately, Atkins has been

contributing to this problem lately by backing off his endorsement of fat a

little in order to get better coverage and maybe make some kind of

accommodation with the mainstream. My girlfriend (a dedicated fat-phobe

impervious to all arguments and evidence I've managed to muster so far)

says he recently wrote in Newsweek that people should make sure not to

" binge " on fat and to eat lots and lots of berries and vegetables and

plenty of lean meat. If that's true, he's veering away from what works in

his own damn plan.

-

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 3/14/03 2:22:27 PM Eastern Standard Time,

heidis@... writes:

> Is this just a short-term thing for candida then? I'm trying to find

> a good long-term diet that I can live (in the literal sense) with.

Yes. I don't know what my good long-term diet will be when my symptoms clear

up, have to see what is healthy for me, but I do well on moderate carbs, and

feel fine on sprouted bread, gluten or none, if I have only a half a piece

with a meal.

Chris

____

" What can one say of a soul, of a heart, filled with compassion? It is a

heart which burns with love for every creature: for human beings, birds, and

animals, for serpents and for demons. The thought of them and the sight of

them make the tears of the saint flow. And this immense and intense

compassion, which flows from the heart of the saints, makes them unable to

bear the sight of the smallest, most insignificant wound in any creature.

Thus they pray ceaselessly, with tears, even for animals, for enemies of the

truth, and for those who do them wrong. "

--Saint Isaac the Syrian

[Guest guest]

Heidi-

>The LWB book isn't really about weight loss, it is about health.

Fair enough, but one thing to consider is that obesity is a serious

impediment to health. And Atkins says that as you approach your target

weight, you should gradually (gradually!) increase your carb consumption

until you basically coast into homeostasis. That sounds sensible to me.

>My reading is that it is less efficient, for one thing (it takes more

>calories,

>it is a less efficient reaction, excreting ketones as " extras " . Plus, without

>insulin, extra fat is more likely to be excreted than used.

Less efficient for what? Utilization of food? Yes, the more fat and the

less carb you eat the more calories you can consume while maintaining or

losing weight, partly due to ketone excretion and partly due to extra heat

generation, but why is this a drawback?

>I think starting higher and going lower

>is safer, but it is also *easier* for most people.

Again, it all comes down to fat and sugar. If someone has a sugar

dependence, I think cold turkey (provided there's enough animal fat!) will

always work better. This is for sure true of me, and while I may be a

relatively extreme case, I'm hardly unique, and my problem is the same as

many people's problems. Lots of fat and severe carb reduction shuts off

the cravings, while " discipline " -- such as trying to gradually cut out

sugars -- doesn't.

>But for those that say

>they are " feeling rotten " and " can't wait for it to be over " , I think

>their body is telling them something.

It is, but I don't think it's necessarily telling them that they need more

carbs. One major problem with Atkins is that he doesn't sufficiently

address the types of quality of foods required for optimum health. For

example, AFAIK he makes no mention anywhere of the importance of grass-fed

meat. And even more importantly, he doesn't really discuss organ meats,

which I'd guess are important in any diet but particularly essential when

eating low-carb.

>but I drink a fair

>amount of water-kefir which isn't necessarily low carb.

I'm not sure, but I'd imagine it's pretty high-carb.

I make something somewhat similar, but I only use about a tablespoon a day

in a bowl of yoghurt (made with half Jersey cream and half Jersy milk, so

it's a very, very fatty yoghurt) or creme fraiche. I run a lot of

blueberries through the food processor until they're practically pureed

(though I don't let anything heat up or aerate much at all) and then I mix

in a little celtic sea salt and a little yoghurt as starter, and then I

ferment it for a few days. The bacteria convert some of the sugar to

lactic acid and, I think, a tiny bit to alcohol, but I'm sure there's still

a ton of carbs in it. (It's actually kind of disgusting tasted by itself,

but it's delicious mixed into fatty dairy.)

-

[Guest guest]

>The only people I know (or have heard of) who have this problem retained

>some of their fat-phobia and didn't eat enough saturated fat.

That may well be true. I eat a LOT more fat than I used to, and

am really satisfied in general. I still think part of the problem

is that the people in question jumped into it so completely

and suddenly (and probably don't eat enough for their

appetite level). That first few weeks were he** on them, and

they don't seem to be actually enjoying food at all. Also

the people I'm talking about have had a lot of health problems,

which I think are related to lack of good nutrients and

also lack of good exercise -- which aren't really part of the

" low carb diet " but I think it does call for a more holistic

approach.

I keep lecturing these people too, on how you NEED more fat

esp. if you cut down carbs (you just can't live on an 80% protein

diet), but yeah, you are right, people are fat-phobic.

Heidi S

[Guest guest]

Heidi-

>Also

>the people I'm talking about have had a lot of health problems,

>which I think are related to lack of good nutrients and

>also lack of good exercise -- which aren't really part of the

> " low carb diet " but I think it does call for a more holistic

>approach.

Well, to be fair to Atkins he does focus a little on nutrition, even though

he sometimes seems to accede to the view that the only real nutrition is to

be found in the plant world, and he definitely recommends exercise, but

don't think I'm an unalloyed Atkins supporter. For all the good advice he

dispenses, there's a lot of crap and a lot of missing information too, and

lately he's been corrupted by his food product business. A lot of those

suffering low-carbers could benefit immensely by focusing on nutrient

density within the confines of a low-carb diet. I still have a lot to

learn on this subject myself, but I've noticed very substantial benefits

from adding liver to my diet (unfortunately raw liver in my case, but

probably not everyone need be so strict about that, at least provided the

liver isn't eaten well done).

-

[Guest guest]

Joy-

The candida diet I ended up on ended up being much stricter than what my

doctor told me to do. I arrived at it by trial and error (and some

reading). Basically I ate meat and green vegetables and nuts- and maybe a

small amount of rice. I probably ate some cheese too. I didn't know about

fermented veggies then - or coconut oil. As supplements I took acidophilus,

Microhydrin (which seemed to help alot), and I don't remember what else

(this was a few years ago).

At some point my Dr. did give me Primal Defense to take. He calls them

" dirt pills " . He likes them, but doesn't feel they have enough acidophilus

and related bacteria to be used long term. When I was cleaning out what my

husband refers to " Vitamin World " (most of which predates my NT days)last

month I found a bottle of Primal Defense, so I'm taking it again.

At least for me, I'd say candida is definitely " right there " - just waiting

for me to eat some good sprouted wheat bread or alot of fruit. And then I

definitely start craving carbs again. This happened recently when I got a

grain mill and just had to try grinding and eating every grain there is.

That's why I threw in the Primal Defense again - and also upped the

fermented veggies.

-Linnea

>

> I'd be interested if anyone has info good or bad on

> Primal Defense and the diet that she put me on.

>

> Joy

[Guest guest]

Chris-

ly I'd cut out the salad. Fiber is highly overrated, particularly for

those who consume a lot of fat. Also, where's the beef? Salmon's great,

but you sure don't seem to be getting much meat fat, let alone much

saturated meat fat. Your menu actually looks kind of like one a

pseudo-vegetarian (i.e. one who eats eggs and fish but not red meat) might

put together, except that nowadays veggie types tend to be low-fatters too.

As to the vinegar, what kind is it? I'd expect raw apple cider vinegar

would have a different effect from synthesized vinegar, for example.

>Ok, here's what I often will have:

>

>Three eggs, raw or scrambled fried in palm butter, a steamer full of kale

>with palm butter on it.

>

>Lunch: sauerkraut (accpetable???), Two cups of vegetable soup (beef bone

>stock, carrots, zuchinni, onions, garlic, celery, spices) , one quart of

>salad with several tbsp olive oil and a little vinegar, celery sticks dipped

>in palm butter, several servings of coconut milk for " desert " (did this

>yesterday).

>

>Dinner: half pound of salmon, big salad in a pyrex bowl, lots of olive oil

>and a little vinegar (is this acceptable?)

-

[Guest guest]

At 02:38 PM 3/14/2003 -0500, you wrote:

>Heidi-

>

> >The LWB book isn't really about weight loss, it is about health.

>

>Fair enough, but one thing to consider is that obesity is a serious

>impediment to health. And Atkins says that as you approach your target

>weight, you should gradually (gradually!) increase your carb consumption

>until you basically coast into homeostasis. That sounds sensible to me.

That works fine if you are a basically healthy fat person. If you are a 60

year old diabetic it could kill you, according to LWB -- there is an

inflammatory reaction that can happen as the body adjusts that can cause

heart attacks.

Also, a lot of people have upper intestinal damage, which means lower

pancreatic output, lack of bile salts, lack of stomach acids, poor

absorption, and who knows what else, which can make it really difficult to

digest fat. I had to start out on coconut oil because it is easy to digest!

Basically once you have been a long time on one diet, it makes sense to me

to work more gradually towards any diet that is intensely different. Your

body needs time to adapt. Or at least some people do.

>

>Less efficient for what? Utilization of food? Yes, the more fat and the

>less carb you eat the more calories you can consume while maintaining or

>losing weight, partly due to ketone excretion and partly due to extra heat

>generation, but why is this a drawback?

It's not a drawback if you are trying to lose weight, which I guess is the

whole point. You can eat more calories and still lose weight.

>Again, it all comes down to fat and sugar. If someone has a sugar

>dependence, I think cold turkey (provided there's enough animal fat!) will

>always work better. This is for sure true of me, and while I may be a

>relatively extreme case, I'm hardly unique, and my problem is the same as

>many people's problems. Lots of fat and severe carb reduction shuts off

>the cravings, while " discipline " -- such as trying to gradually cut out

>sugars -- doesn't.

That may be true for some people. I've done it both ways, and I have to say

that the changes I've made over the last year have been much more permanent

and much less painful, and I don't have sugar cravings any more. If I do

get them on occasion, I go ahead and have some sugar. However, for me the

*allergy* part of it is a big issue, and a slight bit of gluten can throw

me into a fit of craving carbs, chocolate for a day or two, and probably a

migraine, which a piece of candy or cookie will not.

>It is, but I don't think it's necessarily telling them that they need more

>carbs.

Not necessarily. But it is hard to know -- no one really knows the " ideal "

carb level

for anyone, and there are a lot of digestive issues involved too.

>One major problem with Atkins is that he doesn't sufficiently

>address the types of quality of foods required for optimum health. For

>example, AFAIK he makes no mention anywhere of the importance of grass-fed

>meat. And even more importantly, he doesn't really discuss organ meats,

>which I'd guess are important in any diet but particularly essential when

>eating low-carb.

I agree, though he talks about it more than most people listen. One woman I

know on Atkins was living mostly on those commercial pepperoni sticks --

lots of fat, for sure, but sheesh they are full of chemicals.

> >but I drink a fair

> >amount of water-kefir which isn't necessarily low carb.

>

>I'm not sure, but I'd imagine it's pretty high-carb.

It seems to depend how long it sits -- the sugar turns to CO2 and lactic acid,

and the lactic acid is (IMO) a kind of carb, but not one that seems to

hurt anything. But sometimes there is a fair bit of residual sugar left --

I like it to be " dry " with no sugar though, it tastes better.

>

Heidi S

[Guest guest]

>Well, to be fair to Atkins he does focus a little on nutrition, even though

>he sometimes seems to accede to the view that the only real nutrition is to

>be found in the plant world, and he definitely recommends exercise, but

>don't think I'm an unalloyed Atkins supporter.

I'm not an unalloyed supporter of anyone, I guess. Except maybe Sally, but

she doesn't recommend any rigid diet, just a lot of options to choose from.

Which I guess is how I view diets in general -- I've been reading a lot

and trying to find common threads, and see the options to choose from.

Heidi S

[Guest guest]

> Less efficient for what? Utilization of food? Yes, the more fat and the

> less carb you eat the more calories you can consume while maintaining or

> losing weight, partly due to ketone excretion and partly due to extra heat

> generation, but why is this a drawback?

Don't want to open a can of worms, but thought I'd mention that some

people are placing their bets with the theory that reduced caloric intake

can extend one's potential lifespan. There's no hard evidence it'll work

for humans, but there's substantial evidence for other species, and this

would definitely be a drawback to extra calories. This is definitely not

related to an NT worldview at all, but it's not inconsistent with it

either. I've made a lifetime commitment to calorie restriction myself,

just in case it works. There are practitioners who have attitudes like

" every calorie is a second off your life " and that kind of thing. I'm

only a semi-extremist at this point, but eventually I expect to become

more fanatical.

Mike

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 3/15/03 12:03:32 AM Eastern Standard Time,

Idol@... writes:

> ly I'd cut out the salad. Fiber is highly overrated, particularly for

> those who consume a lot of fat. Also, where's the beef? Salmon's great,

> but you sure don't seem to be getting much meat fat, let alone much

> saturated meat fat. Your menu actually looks kind of like one a

> pseudo-vegetarian (i.e. one who eats eggs and fish but not red meat) might

> put together, except that nowadays veggie types tend to be low-fatters too.

Lol... That's my " new " menu as during lent our folks don't eat meat... fish

too but I'm bending that one. Generally most of my meat comes from

hamburgers, and most of my fat comes from butter. I'm using palm butter

right now, which is half saturated (like most meats) and supplementing with a

couple tbsp coconut oil a day, which is mostly saturated. If I wasn't on

this damn diet I would be drinking 2 gallons of milk a week, a pound of

butter, and a quart or half gallon of cream, which provides a large load of

saturated fat.

> As to the vinegar, what kind is it? I'd expect raw apple cider vinegar

> would have a different effect from synthesized vinegar, for example.

I'm using regular apple cider vinegar (unfiltered) to make stock and raw

unfiltered apple cider vinegar on salads.

Chris

____

" What can one say of a soul, of a heart, filled with compassion? It is a

heart which burns with love for every creature: for human beings, birds, and

animals, for serpents and for demons. The thought of them and the sight of

them make the tears of the saint flow. And this immense and intense

compassion, which flows from the heart of the saints, makes them unable to

bear the sight of the smallest, most insignificant wound in any creature.

Thus they pray ceaselessly, with tears, even for animals, for enemies of the

truth, and for those who do them wrong. "

--Saint Isaac the Syrian

[Guest guest]

Mike,

Numerous points indicate that caloric intake is irrelevant and insulin is the

operative factor. It is just coincidental that higher caloric intake leads

to greater insulin levels for the same macronutrients, and that with the

macronutrient ratios most people eat the insulin problem is aggravated.

1) Insulin's primary function in worms is to regulate life-span 2) People

with lower caloric intakes have lower insulin levels 3) centenarian studies

reveal centenarians have in common low sugar intakes (therefore lower

insulin) 4) A study posted on this list (by Liz, I think) recently dealt with

genetically engineered mice to not respond to insulin; these mice, like

low-carb mice, lived much longer than the control group, even though they ate

*more* calories!

Chris

In a message dated 3/15/03 2:42:46 AM Eastern Standard Time, bwp@...

writes:

> Don't want to open a can of worms, but thought I'd mention that some

> people are placing their bets with the theory that reduced caloric intake

> can extend one's potential lifespan. There's no hard evidence it'll work

> for humans, but there's substantial evidence for other species, and this

> would definitely be a drawback to extra calories. This is definitely not

> related to an NT worldview at all, but it's not inconsistent with it

> either. I've made a lifetime commitment to calorie restriction myself,

> just in case it works. There are practitioners who have attitudes like

> " every calorie is a second off your life " and that kind of thing. I'm

> only a semi-extremist at this point, but eventually I expect to become

> more fanatical.

____

" What can one say of a soul, of a heart, filled with compassion? It is a

heart which burns with love for every creature: for human beings, birds, and

animals, for serpents and for demons. The thought of them and the sight of

them make the tears of the saint flow. And this immense and intense

compassion, which flows from the heart of the saints, makes them unable to

bear the sight of the smallest, most insignificant wound in any creature.

Thus they pray ceaselessly, with tears, even for animals, for enemies of the

truth, and for those who do them wrong. "

--Saint Isaac the Syrian

[Guest guest]

,

I need to make a correction. I generally eat a pound of hamburger a week,

but I also eat a pound of buffalo liver and a half pound of raw buffalo swiss

steak. The hamburger is grain-finished, the buffalo liver is hay-fed and

grass in summer, the buffalo steak is 100% grass fed. The hamburger is all

freshly ground. I buy it at Bread and Circus and what they do is any steak

that did not sell on the day it was cut they grind it up for hamburger the

next day.

I did just find a source of lard and will be using lard a lot. It's not

really feasible with my schedule to learn how to start making sausage and

whatnot, and I need to look into mail ordering suet or something, don't know

how expensive it is, but thank you for the suggestion and maybe when the

semester ends and summer comes along I'll try to make this change.

I think Walcott is right about purines. Chicken or whatnot just doesn't cut

it compared to a burger for me, I definitely do better on lentils than other

beans, and I do feel best on liver. His guide of what foods to eat largely

is true for me, e.g. I do great on mushrooms.

Chris

____

" What can one say of a soul, of a heart, filled with compassion? It is a

heart which burns with love for every creature: for human beings, birds, and

animals, for serpents and for demons. The thought of them and the sight of

them make the tears of the saint flow. And this immense and intense

compassion, which flows from the heart of the saints, makes them unable to

bear the sight of the smallest, most insignificant wound in any creature.

Thus they pray ceaselessly, with tears, even for animals, for enemies of the

truth, and for those who do them wrong. "

--Saint Isaac the Syrian

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 3/15/03 2:11:51 PM Eastern Standard Time, bwp@...

writes:

> Additionally, one specific remark for Chris. You pointed out that lower

> calorie levels can cause lower insulin levels, and so even if everything

> boils down to insulin (and I seriously doubt everything is going to boil

> down to just one thing), it would not be correct to conclude as you did

> that calorie intake is irrelevant. Quite to the contrary, it would among

> the key tools one would have to regulate insulin, alongside macronutrient

> ratios, etc.

I don't really think so. There are too many variables. Cutting excess

carbs, adding fat, and exercising more would help lower insulin a lot more

efficiently than generally cutting calories. Calorie level and insulin is

largely coincidental except in cases where people are actually *over*eating,

that can cause excessive insulin even in the absence of excessive carbs. As

to calories, I eat until I'm full, but not stuffed. If I can't go four or

five hours without getting hungry, I didn't eat enough. If I feel bloated or

an energy slag, I ate too much. That doesn't leave a whole lot of room to

play with calories, I, and everyone else, just need to eat a certain amount

of food, individual to each of us, to maintain a good weight, feel energetic

and satisifed after meals, etc.

Chris

____

" What can one say of a soul, of a heart, filled with compassion? It is a

heart which burns with love for every creature: for human beings, birds, and

animals, for serpents and for demons. The thought of them and the sight of

them make the tears of the saint flow. And this immense and intense

compassion, which flows from the heart of the saints, makes them unable to

bear the sight of the smallest, most insignificant wound in any creature.

Thus they pray ceaselessly, with tears, even for animals, for enemies of the

truth, and for those who do them wrong. "

--Saint Isaac the Syrian