Unecessary GB removal ?

December 9, 2000

I have been following this list for sometime and have spent a great

deal of time reading the archives.

I have hoping to find someone who has the problems that I have. I

have suffering for over a year from severe gastro problems and I

have lost over 40 pounds. I had a ultrasound done Feb of this year

and 3 gallstones showed up in my gallbladder (0.5,1.0,1.5 cm) the

bile ducts were fine and there was no thickening of the GB walls. My

HMO physician told me to make an appointment with a surgeon to have

my GB removed. I have since resisted. I never experienced what

everyone seems to refer as a GB attack, just severe indigestion that

flares up a few hours after I eat just about anything.

On the net I have found several medical papers that discuss the

large number of unnecessary GB surgeries done on people who may have

silent gallstones and unrelated dyspesia. And a large number of

people reported that their conditions worsened after the operation.

I wasn't about to have some surgeon cut out my GB just to see if the

stones were causing my problem. I sought out a holistic doctor with

a MD degree. Since he was not covered by my HMO insurance I had to

shell out a lot of dough. My physcian became real angry with me

because I went to another doctor and would not get my " diseased

gallbladder " removed.

I understand that at least 10% of population have gallstones but

less than 2% have problems. The holistic doctor has given me a

bunch of supplements , acupressure, and food allery diets but this

has only helped a little bit. I still am miserable and becoming

broke. I've done 3 Hulda flushes and got out several hundred

tan and green pea sized objects . I have actually felt worst after

each flush. After the first bad expeerience I tried a parasite

cleanse first, but after 2 days it really tore my stomach up so I

stopped the flush went ahead and did a flush anyway.

I am under constant pressure from my HMO doctor, friends, and

relative to have my GB removed . But I don't think my problem will go

away by removing my GB. And if it ain't hurting me leave it alone.

I was hoping that my digestive problems would go away but they still

are killing me. I am the point where I am actually want to have a

real GB Attacks so I can say " yeah its my GB go ahead and take it out "

Maybe someone in this group can shed some light on this subject or

relate to it. In the process seeking a cure I have learned a lot of

information from this group and elsewhere on the net. I hope to

share it with this group in future emails.

December 9, 2000

First of all let me say that there are about 500,000 GB remaovals /

year in US. Many are unnecessary; but sometimes they may be the only

solution - but only a fraction of those performed, maybe a tiny

fraction. There could be so many reasons for your symptoms that one

can only give some general pointers. It could well be an

allergy/intolerance, but to what? If I were you I'd eliminate dairy,

meat, wheat and corn for at least two weeks to see if its any of

these common allergens. There are other possibilities. One would need

to try to link particularly bad feelings to what was recently eaten.

Take plenty of plain water - this helps with elimination of toxins.

One possible group of 'toxins' is simply' incomplete digestion of

food. You could try some digestive enzymes, which should include

Lipase for fats. Betaine HCl helps increase stomach acid which guards

against infection as well as helping with digestion; more common in

older people. Betaine HCl is often found in 'digestive enzymes'

preparations. Add extra Lecithin and soluble fibre to what you eat /

drink (but not whaet bran). An infection is another possibility.

Avoid trans (hydrogenated fats) and processed foods in general, too

much protein, eggs, colas etc. Switch to olive oil but dont use too

much. Don't take antacids - take water instead if you feel the need.

An example gentle restorative diet can be tried for a couple of weeks

would consist of oats with soya milk and extra lecithin and diluted

fruit and vegetable juices. You can add a multivitamin to this.

Some questions -

Could the problem be related to any medication?

Did the problem arise very gradually or quite quickly?

Would you say you are more constipated or the reverse?

Do you experience a lot of gas?

K

> I have been following this list for sometime and have spent a great

> deal of time reading the archives.

> I have hoping to find someone who has the problems that I have. I

> have suffering for over a year from severe gastro problems and I

> have lost over 40 pounds. I had a ultrasound done Feb of this year

> and 3 gallstones showed up in my gallbladder (0.5,1.0,1.5 cm) the

> bile ducts were fine and there was no thickening of the GB walls.

My

> HMO physician told me to make an appointment with a surgeon to

have

> my GB removed. I have since resisted. I never experienced what

> everyone seems to refer as a GB attack, just severe indigestion

that

> flares up a few hours after I eat just about anything.

> On the net I have found several medical papers that discuss the

> large number of unnecessary GB surgeries done on people who may

have

> silent gallstones and unrelated dyspesia. And a large number of

> people reported that their conditions worsened after the

operation.

> I wasn't about to have some surgeon cut out my GB just to see if

the

> stones were causing my problem. I sought out a holistic doctor

with

> a MD degree. Since he was not covered by my HMO insurance I had to

> shell out a lot of dough. My physcian became real angry with me

> because I went to another doctor and would not get my " diseased

> gallbladder " removed.

>

> I understand that at least 10% of population have gallstones but

> less than 2% have problems. The holistic doctor has given me a

> bunch of supplements , acupressure, and food allery diets but this

> has only helped a little bit. I still am miserable and becoming

> broke. I've done 3 Hulda flushes and got out several

hundred

> tan and green pea sized objects . I have actually felt worst after

> each flush. After the first bad expeerience I tried a parasite

> cleanse first, but after 2 days it really tore my stomach up so I

> stopped the flush went ahead and did a flush anyway.

>

> I am under constant pressure from my HMO doctor, friends, and

> relative to have my GB removed . But I don't think my problem will

go

> away by removing my GB. And if it ain't hurting me leave it alone.

> I was hoping that my digestive problems would go away but they

still

> are killing me. I am the point where I am actually want to have a

> real GB Attacks so I can say " yeah its my GB go ahead and take it

out "

>

> Maybe someone in this group can shed some light on this subject or

> relate to it. In the process seeking a cure I have learned a lot of

> information from this group and elsewhere on the net. I hope to

> share it with this group in future emails.

December 9, 2000

Hi,

Have you been to a gastroenterologist? It's funny, my primary care

physician's attitude three years ago was, " The only way to tell if the

gallbladder is causing the problem is to take it out. " I did not agree.

Last month when I went to a gastroenterologist, he said he would not

recommend surgery, because I could have it out and still have problems. His

attitude was to eliminate other things first. I did end up having it out,

but I appreciated the fact that it was not his first recommendation.

The first thing he eliminated was reflux. I was certain this was not the

cause, but he said it was the easiest thing to eliminate. Your symptoms,

however, sound like that could be the reason. Lots of people have

gallstones which cause them no problems. It would be awful to see you go

through surgery, and still feel awful.

If you haven't had gallbladder attacks, I would sure be investigating other

causes.

Debra

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December 9, 2000

Thank you for your reply and concern. I left off so much because I

thought my message was too long already.

Yes, I have just gone to a gastroenterologist and she did not spend

much time with me she rushed me out faster than the HMO doctor. She

ask some short questions gave me and ordered some test to be done.

The first test I had was a cat scan and next week I go in for a

colonoscopy. A nurse from the gastro office called me and said the

results of the cat scan showed everything normal but that I still had

gallstones! She then gave the name of a surgeon that I should make

an appointment with. (I haven't done it and I don't want to yet!)

Also she sent a prescription for some Prevacid for acid reflux. The

Prevacid made my stomach hurt worst so I stop taking it.

I had them fax my test results and records to my holistic doctor.

He was delighted because the test results said the largest size

stone was 1.0 cm and the 8 month earlier ultrasound showed the

largest stone was 1.5. So he said this is a 1/3 reduction therefore

his treatments must be working. Or maybe the flushes! I'm not so sure

if this was not just a measurement error between the ultrasound and

the cat scan.

I forgot to mention that the earlier ultrasound also showed a

slightly enlarged spleen 14.2cm but the cat scan showed the spleen

at a more normal size of 13 cm. So this made me wonder if it was

not a machine tolerance problem. The holistic doctor got miffed

at me when I brought this up, saying that I focus on the negative

too much. He wants me to continue his treatments. His treatments

consist of diet,digestive supplements, flax oil capsules and

accupressure. I ask him about the flushes and said I could give them

a try. As I said before the 3 flushes that I did seemed awfully rough

on me.

I have bought and read every article and book I can get my hands on

the subject of digestion, food alergies and gallstones. So I have

tried alot of things which have been brought up.

Thanks all for your support

Don

> Hi,

>

> Have you been to a gastroenterologist? It's funny, my primary care

> physician's attitude three years ago was, " The only way to tell if

the

> gallbladder is causing the problem is to take it out. " I did not

agree.

> Last month when I went to a gastroenterologist, he said he would

not

> recommend surgery, because I could have it out and still have

problems. His

> attitude was to eliminate other things first. I did end up having

it out,

> but I appreciated the fact that it was not his first recommendation.

>

> The first thing he eliminated was reflux. I was certain this was

not the

> cause, but he said it was the easiest thing to eliminate. Your

symptoms,

> however, sound like that could be the reason. Lots of people have

> gallstones which cause them no problems. It would be awful to see

you go

> through surgery, and still feel awful.

>

> If you haven't had gallbladder attacks, I would sure be

investigating other

> causes.

>

> Debra

>

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December 10, 2000

and all

Thank goodness for this support group. There are people here that

listen and help because they know where you are coming from. I feel

better just participating in this forum. I hope that I may

contribute some info that I have learned in my quest for feeling

better.

I have both of the books by Dr . Cabot. Because of the

results of my blood allergy test that the holistic doctor had

given me, I cannot eat alot of the foods that Dr Cabot recomends. I

am restricted from citrus fruit (no lemon drink) and the almond,

sunflower seed, and flaxseed mix gives me heartburn and severe

indigestion if I take the recommended dosage. I also don't need to be

losing anymore weight either. I am trying to follow some of her other

tips

After looking at my journal I realized that my rapid weight loss had

actually stabilized over the last 3 months. But I am still far below

the ideal weight for my size. The reason I went to the

gastroenterologist was that I had lost so much weight for and my

stool was normal color but floating. I wanted to confirm that I did

not have celiac or some other disease. A blood test showed that I did

not have celeiac sprue (a test for celiac disease).

It usually takes me 3 days or more to get over the effects of those

flushes they leave me weakened and tired

and depressed. I also lose a few pounds of weight, which I don't

need to. I tried doing a parasite cleanse before the last one but my

stomach can't handle it. Its hard for me to look forward to doing

the flushes. Ive had been doing them about 6 weeks apart. But I

haven't done one in the last 10 weeks. I plan on doing one after the

holidays if I feel any better.

Don

> Another good source you might try, if you haven't already, is Dr.

> Cabot's " Liver Cleansing Diet " or " Healthy Liver and Bowel Book " .

Just hang

> in there, it may take several flushes to relieve symptoms. How

close do you

> do flushes? I can't handle them too close together because my

stomach is on

> the sensitive side. Good luck to you! laura

>

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December 10, 2000

Debra,

I don't think the holistic doctor was mad at me because I asked a

lot questions. But I think he was mad because I appeared so skeptical

about the results from my test. I think he took my questions as an

attack on his treatment and that I should be very thankful for the

results. I was feeling pretty lousy that day and its hard to be

happy when you've spent a lot of time and money and your guts are

still killing you. I picked him out because he also has an MD degree

and thought that I could get the best of both worlds. Don't get me

wrong, In some ways I do feel better and he has helped me some. But

the bottom line is that I am still sick and all the mainstream

doctors want to do is yank out my gall bladder without convincing me

that this is the problem. I am sorry but I'm not like a broken auto

where you can remove and replace parts to see whats causing the

problem

Don

> Don,

>

> Sounds to me like your gatroenterologist was in too much of a hurry

with

> you, and I don't loke the sound of your holistic doctor either. No

one

> should be mad at you for asking questions.

>

> My understanding is that it is actually the smaller stones that

cause

> problems, because they are more likely to end up stuck in the

common bile

> duct.

>

> You must be so frustrated. I still think though, that if you have

not had

> gallbladder attacks, you should keep on investigating, because it

may very

> well not be the stones that are causing your problems.

>

> Debra

>

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December 10, 2000

Thanks for the tips. Yes I have been down this road too.

One of the things that has been driving me crazy is everytime I learn

about a new food that might help,I find out that I can not eat it for

some other reason!! In June, the holistic doctor gave me an

expensive food Antibody Assessment blood test (IgE/ IgG). The results

said I was to avoid wheat,corn,yeast, rice,papaya, soy, lemon,milk

,beans and a ton of other foods that I normally eat and are

supposed to be good for you. Its hard to find anything that does not

contain these ingredients. . While on this diet I felt worst than

ever. After about 3 months I started going back to eating a little of

the foods I use to eat. While I didn't get over my stomach problems

either on or off the diet, I did feel much better overall eating

some of the foods which showed up as sensitivities.

I have since read some articles questioning the accuracy of these

(IgE/IgG) test and mainstream medical doctors don't trust them

either. I just recently went and had a blood test for celiac

spru (celiac disease ) from another doctor which came back

negative. I think this means I can go back to wheat(?) I can't try

the Soy,rice milk papaya smoothie because my allergy test says I

should avoid all of these ingredients!! I am so frustrated! I will

try the acidophilus you suggested. Are the capsules okay?

Thank you so much for your advice

Don

> > > I have been following this list for sometime and have spent a

great

> > > deal of time reading the archives.

> > > I have hoping to find someone who has the problems that I have.

I

> > > have suffering for over a year from severe gastro problems and

I

> > > have lost over 40 pounds. I had a ultrasound done Feb of this

year

> > > and 3 gallstones showed up in my gallbladder (0.5,1.0,1.5 cm)

the

> > > bile ducts were fine and there was no thickening of the GB

walls.

> > My

> > > HMO physician told me to make an appointment with a surgeon to

> > have

> > > my GB removed. I have since resisted. I never experienced what

> > > everyone seems to refer as a GB attack, just severe indigestion

> > that

> > > flares up a few hours after I eat just about anything.

> > > On the net I have found several medical papers that discuss

the

> > > large number of unnecessary GB surgeries done on people who may

> > have

> > > silent gallstones and unrelated dyspesia. And a large number of

> > > people reported that their conditions worsened after the

> > operation.

> > > I wasn't about to have some surgeon cut out my GB just to see if

> > the

> > > stones were causing my problem. I sought out a holistic doctor

> > with

> > > a MD degree. Since he was not covered by my HMO insurance I had

to

> > > shell out a lot of dough. My physcian became real angry with me

> > > because I went to another doctor and would not get my " diseased

> > > gallbladder " removed.

> > >

> > > I understand that at least 10% of population have gallstones

but

> > > less than 2% have problems. The holistic doctor has given me a

> > > bunch of supplements , acupressure, and food allery diets but

this

> > > has only helped a little bit. I still am miserable and becoming

> > > broke. I've done 3 Hulda flushes and got out several

> > hundred

> > > tan and green pea sized objects . I have actually felt worst

after

> > > each flush. After the first bad expeerience I tried a parasite

> > > cleanse first, but after 2 days it really tore my stomach up so

I

> > > stopped the flush went ahead and did a flush anyway.

> > >

> > > I am under constant pressure from my HMO doctor, friends, and

> > > relative to have my GB removed . But I don't think my problem

will

> > go

> > > away by removing my GB. And if it ain't hurting me leave it

alone.

> > > I was hoping that my digestive problems would go away but they

> > still

> > > are killing me. I am the point where I am actually want to have

a

> > > real GB Attacks so I can say " yeah its my GB go ahead and take

it

> > out "

> > >

> > > Maybe someone in this group can shed some light on this subject

or

> > > relate to it. In the process seeking a cure I have learned a

lot of

> > > information from this group and elsewhere on the net. I hope to

> > > share it with this group in future emails.

> >

> > Collected testimonials:

> > http:///messages/gallstones-testimonials

> > You are receiving this email because you elected to subscribe to

the

> gallstonesegroups To unsubscribe:

> Mailto:gallstones-unsubscribeegroups

> > To subscribe again: Mailto:gallstones-subscribeegroups

> > To change status to digest: Mailto:gallstones-digestegroups

> > To change status to normal: Mailto;gallstones-normalegroups

> > By joining the list you agree to hold yourself FULLY responsible

FOR

> yourself!

> > List Archives: http:///messages/gallstones

> > Web Sites: http://home.online.no/~dusan/gallstones/

> > Have a nice day !

> >

December 10, 2000

Has anyone considered it may not be your gallbladder causing indigestion,

but something else. Sounds to me like the doc is in a hurry for some reason

to remove your gallbladder, when that MAY not even be the problem. You'd

feel awful bad, going through surgery then still having the same problems.

Maybe it's not your gallbladder, but an ulcer or something like that.