Re: newbie question on fat ratios

[Guest guest]

Perhaps it's just semantics but I think it's more than one protocol. He

advises: a strict low fat diet, exercise, yoga, meditation, social support

systems. Those are some of the more important changes in lifestyle

pioneered by Dean Ornish.

on 10/7/2004 11:20 AM, freebird5005 at freebird5005@... wrote:

> Ornish didn't just show reversal of coronary disease BUT he showed

> reversal of coronary disease with ONLY ONE SPECIFIC PROTOCOL! No one

> else has demonstrated this (please correct me if I am wrong). His

> protocol gets the job done (or at least gives one the best chance to

> date of getting the job done) Everything else is pure spec!

>

[Guest guest]

Hi :

Perhaps the single most important thing you ought to read - from end

to end, and absorb it - is what here has come to be called the WUSTL

study. PMID: 15096581

All the data it contains are important. But perhaps especially so

are the data for carotid IMT measurements - a relatively easy, non-

invasive, way to get a proxy measure for probable coronary artery

blockage.

Once you have read it, then consider that the fat intakes by type,

and as a percentage of calories, of the subjects in that study were

all over the map. Yet they all appear to be excepionally healthy, in

a cardiovascular sense especially. There is a big message here.

Please read it.

Rodney.

>

> " : Ornish is probably the world's leading authority on this

> subject. It sounds like you've never heard of him which is pretty

> surprising. "

>

> > I did not mean to be disrespectful to Ornish, I honestly

> had never heard of him, I just checked some links posted in reply

to

> my message. He obviously has importance to this group based on

your

> replies. (I don't live in America, so have only had access to a few

> library books from American doctors.)

>

> After seeing your replies I checked a few random months in the

> archives to see which of those posters have been in the group the

> longest and JWRIGHT, AL PATER and FRANSESCA are some names that

stand

> out over the last couple of years, would you both and any others be

> willing to say what percentage of calories you have as fat and what

> is the break down of fats (omega3, omega6, mono, and saturated), I

am

> especially interested in hearing from people aged 50 plus as I see

> that as an age when CHD really starts to show. And could you also

> mention your percentage of calories as protein. This would be very

> helpful to me.

>

>

> The reason I got hung up on the felton study was that it seemed to

> answer my question based on simple logic (poly fats clog up around

> 50% of the hearts of CHD patents)so they must logically be the most

> dangerous fats. That kind of reasoning meant I could avaoid having

to

> put faith in any one doctor or collection of doctors who may

mislead

> me due to my ignorance in the area of nutritional science/health

etc.

> But as a number of people have come out strongly in favour of DR.

> Ornish then it would seem that he is most likely correct (due to

the

> fact that some of you posting must be above 50, are following his

> guidlines and are still alive and free from heart problems I

presume.

>

> When I say I am new to the internet I really mean that, my previous

> reading has been Dr.Walfords last book and a much earlier book

about

> calorie restriction I read sometimes in the early 1990s. And what I

> picked up from television/news about eating a low fat, low protein,

> high carb diet being best and Dr.Walford seemed to fit nicely with

> that view point.

>

> So at the moment and for the last decade I have been eating low

fat,

> high carb (wholegrains of course), low protein. But as I get older

I

> thought I would have another look at the area of calorie

restriction

> and nutrition as I recently gained internet access. And fats was

one

> area I looked into, but at this point only from the perspective of

> what clogs the heart, rather than the type of studies done by Dean

> Ornish etc. Have heard of the nurses health study, but not looked

> into this yet.

>

> But my biggest concern as I head into my later thirties is that I

do

> not do something stupid now that will cause a problem fifteen to

> twenty years from now. So I don't want to cut anything out (sat

> fats, poly or even mono) and then suddenly get a nasty surprise

when

> I hit 55 years of age as with Bill Clinton etc.

>

>

> many thanks for all the replies

[Guest guest]

The preponderance of "evidence" doesn't work all the time because it's not "evidence".

For most of the things I worry about there is NO GOLD STANDARD.

----- Original Message -----

From: freebird5005

Sent: Thursday, October 07, 2004 10:20 AM

Subject: [ ] Re: newbie question on fat ratios

The preponderance of evidence is just that.. superiority in weight...and it's a very good "one". One shouldn't displace a body of knowledgeculled from many investigations with one single dissenting article.takes time and effort to flush out the truth and create good models. On the other hand, one good study can provide insight for furtherinvestigation which may eventually lead to a "revolution", a change inparadigm (or it may not as is usually the case).Ornish didn't just show reversal of coronary disease BUT he showedreversal of coronary disease with ONLY ONE SPECIFIC PROTOCOL! No oneelse has demonstrated this (please correct me if I am wrong). Hisprotocol gets the job done (or at least gives one the best chance todate of getting the job done) Everything else is pure spec!You may place great stock in culling the diverse philosophies ofvarious writers, and there is some profit in that, but I want to seeproof in the pudding... OBJECTIVE PRE/POST "X-RAYS".. THIS is the GOLDSTANDARD!!Have a great day! :B> > > > Thanks Al Pate, R and Freebird for answering my question. The > > links by freebird were interesting but very frustrating, most of > > them talked about intensive lifestyle changes reducing CHD risks > > (exercise, low fat, vegetarian, stress reduction) especialy by aguy > > called Ornish, but none of the studies examined the variablesone at > > a time. The ornish guy could have easily answered my question if he > > had studied only saturated fat reduction or poly fat reduction on > > CHD risk instead of all the other factrs. And I have heard of > > studies where population (china) have low cholesterol and fat via > > food but this increases their stroke rates big time. > > > > After reading more articles though I think my question will be > > answered eventaully as the felton study I originally referenced > > would sugest a high sat and mono fat ration to a low poly rationmay > > actually be protective of the heart (as it was the poly fat thatdid > > the damage), if this is true then all those people currently > > following the Atkins diet should have lower CHD risks than none-> > atkins people over the long term, so if those Atkins followersstill > > have healthy hearts over the next decade or so then that will prove > > the felton study correct (but after saying that, it strikes me that > > the atkins diet is so poor in fruit and veg that this may causethem > > to die of CHD due to over-oxidization of any fat they eat, even if > > it were low fat).> > > > Until then it would seem prudent for me to split my 60g of dailyfat > > in favour of mono (60%) sats (20%) poly (20%). I am not in the CHD > > zone age wise (mid thirties) but father died young (51 with heart > > attack so am concerned over fat). Saying that though, father did > > smoke and eat lots of fried foods and pastries/pies with trans fats > > in, avoided fruit and veg, was stressed, plus was a few stones in > > weight more than me, but he also had average "safe" cholesterol > > levels according to his doctor).> > > > thanks all> > > > > > > > >

[Guest guest]

I don't know this to be true but I wouldn't doubt Pritikin influenced

Ornish but to my knowledge only Ornish demonstrated actual regression

of atherosclerotic plaques or progression. The proof in the pudding is

in the eating...and what better proof than VISUALIZING AN ARTERY

RE-OPENING!! :B

I have nothing but great respect for Pritikin too. Great work there!

> >

> > Ornish didn't just show reversal of coronary disease BUT he showed

> > reversal of coronary disease with ONLY ONE SPECIFIC PROTOCOL! No one

> > else has demonstrated this (please correct me if I am wrong

[Guest guest]

>>My impression is, because of the similarities of many of Ornish's

methods, that he learnt much of what he knows from Pritikin.

Ornish actually studied with years before he developed his

program.

However, actually got some of his ideas from a Dr Lester on

who did an incredible study on diet and Heart Disease back in the 1940s.

I will try and find the reference and post it. Basically it was a 12

year study on like 100 men with heart disease. Half stayed on the

typical american diet, half went on what was to become the pritikin

diet. The study had to stop at the 12 year mark because none of the

men in the typical american diet group were still alive while half of

the low fat group was still alive and doing well.

Also, Dr Walter Kempner is often regarded as the modern day grandpa of

all the modern diets. He developed the rice diet, to help his patients

with advanced kidney disease.

I have a 100 year timeline of all this along with a few other MDs who

made contributions to this ongoing development over the time. I willl

try and find it and the morrison study to post.

probably was the one who made the most progress with it and the

biggest push with it till Ornish

Jeff

[Guest guest]

>>I don't know this to be true but I wouldn't doubt Pritikin influenced

Ornish but to my knowledge only Ornish demonstrated actual regression of

atherosclerotic plaques or progression.

For the record, one of our main researchers is involved with both Ornish

and us, in some recent studies and 2 years ago, we were both, Dean and

I, keynotes at a medical conference in Aspen.

If you look at the Ornish data, the actual amount of regression over the

1, 3, 5 year periods is minimal. Yes, there was regression but that is

not what is responsible for the benefit seen in the patients.

The thought was that most heart attacks were due to the narrowing of the

arteries till there was no more room for blood flow and than, BAM, heart

attack. But, what we now know is that around 70% of heart attacks occur

in arteries that are less than 50% blocked, and most in arteries where

the blockage doesn't even show up on tests. IN fact, if you have

arteries that are very blocked and you are alive, it is because you have

developed secondary circulation or corrolary artieries. So, if its not

the narrowing that is the problem, what is.

What we now know is the real benefit is due to the stabilization of the

soft plaque deposits, the increase in Nitric Oxide in the vessels, the

resulting dilating of the vessels and the reduction in clotting factors,

amongst others. It's the soft plaque that ruptures, causing an

increase in clotting factors in the area which than cause the blockage

and the ensuing heart attack.

So, while " reversal " is more appealing, and makes a better headline, the

reality is " stabilization " is the real benefit. Otherwise, it would

take forever to see the benefit that we see sometimes in not only weeks,

but days.

Also, in reagrd to the comments on what component of the program is the

most effective, a 15 year study on the same program without the exercise

or stress management was published twice by Caldwell Essylsteen who got

as good if not better results than the Ornish data. All he used was

diet and on a rare occasion a small amount of a statin in some patients.

PS. After being diagnosed with severe atherosclerosis and CVD at the age

of 41, at the age of 75, when he died, arranged to have his

autposy made public and published in the NEJM. At the time, they said

his arteries were clean as a whistle and flexible as a teenager with no

signs of CVD. It's a shame that the late Dr Atkins, didn't make the

same arrangements.

[Guest guest]

Partially true, but Ornish showed by test. Dr's such as Kempner preceded both but you never hear of Kempner much. Unfortunately he didn't "prove" his techniques any more than Atkins, and many others have did. So it's not evidence. There's are literally millions of articles and most aren't in Medline - too early - before 1966. Ornish did a review like no had done and put it together in a plan which included exercise, et al. Because he was a doctor, he was able to go farther than you average book writer and was able to get funding for studies.

He has since added some fish to his lacto veg diet. And he has said on TV that the reversal diet is not needed for someone without cardio problems. So the reversal diet of <10% fat is not required for healthy folks. Checkout his website. He's doing studies on Prostate cancer now.

Tests have shown the a "low fat" diet defined as <30% is good, as in reduces cardio problems. In practice, I find it difficult to get below 20% as I eat some fats from nuts/ avocadoes occasionally and avocadoes often. I find it totally unnecessary to ingest ANY fat/oil as a supplement/condiment to stay above 20% total fat. And I find it very difficult to worry fatty acid ratios as well other things in the diet.

A typical day would be 15P /18F /67 C. I don't track sat fat, but I see it's 3% of 1800 kcals (no avocadoes).

On a day with avocadoes: 15P/ 23 F/ 62 C, with 4% sat fat.

That's just my diet - people have to find what works for them.

Today there are millions of web sites touting their philosophy with no supporting tests. Most info is inferred from epid studies or anecdotal or practice. Textbooks separate a lot of stuff and books written but people like Ornish do too. But good "library" books are few. I even doubt sears now because of the ALA question inre cancer.

IMO, the "real truth" starts with medical textbooks, current practice AHA, ADA, ACS, etc., ongoing studies, and review articles which put together an overall opinion.

Regards.

----- Original Message -----

From: Rodney

Sent: Thursday, October 07, 2004 10:34 AM

Subject: [ ] Re: newbie question on fat ratios

Hi Freebird:My IMPRESSION is that Pritikin demonstrated coronary disease reversal long before Ornish was in diapers (nappies if you are from over the pond). My impression is, because of the similarities of many of Ornish's methods, that he learnt much of what he knows from Pritikin.Not to denigrate Ornish. Almost all of science, and absolutely all of nutrition/health science, is a gradual progression of refinement, gradually getting a little bit closer to the real truth. Ornish has contributed a lot.Rodney.

[Guest guest]

-----Original Message-----

From: Rodney [mailto:perspect1111@...]

Sent: Thursday, October 07, 2004 10:45 AM

Subject: [ ] Re: newbie question on fat ratios

Hi :

Perhaps the single most important thing you ought to read - from end

to end, and absorb it - is what here has come to be called the WUSTL

study. PMID: 15096581

All the data it contains are important. But perhaps especially so

are the data for carotid IMT measurements - a relatively easy, non-

invasive, way to get a proxy measure for probable coronary artery

blockage.

Once you have read it, then consider that the fat intakes by type,

and as a percentage of calories, of the subjects in that study were

all over the map. Yet they all appear to be excepionally healthy, in

a cardiovascular sense especially. There is a big message here.

Please read it.

Rodney.

-----------------------------

I have long railed against macronutrient ratios as only being of interest

because they are easy to measure.

Since Rodney didn't come out and say it, I will. The message I take from the

WUSTL study is that energy balance trumps macronutrient ratio differences.

It just makes sense that during a negative energy balance dietary fat is

being consumed for energy and not available to muck up the works. In a

positive energy balance our body is actually making more fat so what we

consume is only part of the issue.

Sure fat intake can increase or modulate the impact for the vast majority of

our population who are energy positive (and I mean positive in the most

negative sense).

JR

[Guest guest]

>>> a 15 year study on the same program without the exercise or stress

management was published twice by Caldwell Essylsteen who got as good if

not better results than the Ornish data. All he used was diet and on a

rare occasion a small amount of a statin in some patients.

The most recent info is here . I have no ties to the site or all the

marketing on it but it's a good review of his data, as all the patient

data is detailed there.

http://www.vegsource.com/esselstyn/reversal01.htm

And the original.

A Strategy to Arrest and Reverse Coronary Artery Disease: A 5-Year

Longitudinal Study of a Single Physician's Practice

Caldwell B. Esselstyn, Jr, MD; G. Ellis, MD;

Sharon V. Medendorp, MPH; and D. Crowe

Background. Animal experiments and epidemiological studies have

suggested that coronary disease could be prevented, arrested, or even

reversed by maintaining total serum cholesterol levels below 150 mg/dL

(3.88 mmol/ L). In 1985, we began to study how effective one physi cian

could be in helping patients achieve this cholesterol level and what the

associated effect of achieving and main taining this cholesterol level

has on coronary disease.

Methods. The study included 22 patients with angio graphically

documented, severe coronary artery disease that was not immediately life

threatening. These patients took cholesterol-lowering drugs and followed

a diet that derived no more than 10% of its calories from fat. Disease

progression was measured by coronary angiography and quantified with the

percent diameter stenosis and minimal lumen diameter methods. Serum

cholesterol was measured biweekly for 5 years and monthly thereafter.

Results. Of the 22 participants, 5 dropped out within 2 years, and 17

maintained the diet, 11 of whom com pleted a mean of 5.5 years of

follow-up. All 11 of these participants reduced their cholesterol level

from a mean baseline of 246 mg/dL (6.36 mmol/L) to below 150mg/dL (3.88

mmol/L). Lesion analysis by percent ste nosis showed that of 25 lesions,

11 regressed and 14 re mained stable. Mean arterial stenosis decreased

from 53.4% to 46.2% (estimated decrease=7%; 95% confi dence interval

[CI], 3.3 to 10.7, P<.05). Analysis by mini mal lumen diameter of 25

lesions fotind that 6 regressed, 14 remained stable, and 5 progressed.

Mean lumen diame ter increased from 1.3 mm to 1.4 mm (estimated in

crease=0.08 mm; 95% CI, --0.06 to 0.22, P=NS). Dis ease was clinically

arrested in all 11 participants, and none had new infarctions. Among the

11 remaining patients af ter 10 years, six continued the diet and had no

flirther cor onary events, whereas the five dropouts who resumed their

prestudy diet reported 10 coronary events.

Conclusions. A physician can influence patients in the decision to adopt

a very low-fat diet that, combined with lipid-lowering drugs, can reduce

cholesterol levels to below 150 mg/dL and uniformly result in the arrest

or reversal of coronary artery disease.

Key words. Coronary disease; cholesterol; nutrition; ath erosclerosis;

preventive medicine. (J Earn Pract 1995; 41:560-568)

[Guest guest]

You should check the references in Ornish's book also. 18 pages going back about 100 yrs.

Heart disease develops a lot earlier than you might think.

After about 5 years of wandering this way and that; having tried Atkins in the 70's, Mackarness in the 60's, not having lost weight, gradual increase in bph symptoms, becoming stiff in the joints and a little weaker in muscle, I have returned to Ornish. Differences from the first time? Three grams of fish oil daily, most of egg white and milk protein converted to fish which gives you a few ounces once or twice aweek. Sometimes I forget. Fat comes to about 12%, not 10 or less, with restricted calories.

I feel better. I have the energy to work out consistently. I walk 15 or miles weekly, indoors or out. I had a serious energy problem on the more liberal diets. I do about 8 strength exercises per week, doing a few each day so each exercise is repeated 3 times weekly. I'm working for enough strength to handle a little more than needed for all of the ordinary circumstances of life (I have seen my friends develop slow shuffles during the past year or so. I drove one of them, my old drinking buddy, to dialysis yesterday). I am working up from one set of 8 to 2 sets of 15 At 2 sets of fifteen I drop the reps and increases the weight to something that's heaver but easy at 2 sets of 8. I am not interested in developing great strength, but I am very interested in stopping the degradation of life experience that was beginning to evidence itself. Watching my friends fall apart is saddening and frightening. I do 20 or 30 minutes of yoga plus 15 to 20 minutes of meditation most days. The meditation process of letting go gives me a tool that helps me stay on track. If I don't do the meditation, I don't stay on track. I do a little every day. I was surprised after beginning yoga again about 7 days into my change back to Ornish that much of my flexibility (a personal, relative term) had returned after much stiffening with various forms of higher animal protein, higher fat regimens. And not enough energy to be consistent. Oh. I try to be outgoing and friendly. I guess sometimes I 'm just silly.

For me, the best program is Ornish, modifed to the extent mentioned and also modifed by Walfordonian concern for complete nutrition (what's that?) which Ornish does not control for very well. I also mix food colors daily, as well. Kind of fun.

Oh. Many of you already know that I'm 72. When I follow this program, I feel very good. If not, I often do not feel well. I am not presenting myself as a paragon, nor am I suggeting that my program is best for everyone. I did well on it for three years, dropped it and my condition degraded. Began again and am progressing again. Rae will notice that there are no end points in this limited study. My hope is that there will be none until after 2032.

And now I return to my lurker's lair.

Ed Sullivan

[Guest guest]

Hi All,

I am 57 years old and:

Calories Protein Carbs Fat Sat Fat Chol

1685 86.72 301 33.6 5.7 79

CPF Ratio: 63-18-16

My mono- to polyunsaturated fats ratio is about 1 to 3.

CR should avoid the Bill Clinton-like episodes.

Cheers, Al Pater.

> After seeing your replies I checked a few random months in the

> archives to see which of those posters have been in the group the

> longest and JWRIGHT, AL PATER and FRANSESCA are some names that

stand

> out over the last couple of years, would you both and any others be

> willing to say what percentage of calories you have as fat and what

> is the break down of fats (omega3, omega6, mono, and saturated), I

am

> especially interested in hearing from people aged 50 plus as I see

> that as an age when CHD really starts to show. And could you also

> mention your percentage of calories as protein. This would be very

> helpful to me.

[Guest guest]

Thanks Ed,

Just one question: I assume 12% total fat?

Regards

----- Original Message -----

From: Ed Sullivan

Sent: Thursday, October 07, 2004 12:08 PM

Subject: Re: [ ] Re: newbie question on fat ratios

You should check the references in Ornish's book also. 18 pages going back about 100 yrs.

Heart disease develops a lot earlier than you might think.

After about 5 years of wandering this way and that; having tried Atkins in the 70's, Mackarness in the 60's, not having lost weight, gradual increase in bph symptoms, becoming stiff in the joints and a little weaker in muscle, I have returned to Ornish. Differences from the first time? Three grams of fish oil daily, most of egg white and milk protein converted to fish which gives you a few ounces once or twice aweek. Sometimes I forget. Fat comes to about 12%, not 10 or less, with restricted calories.

I feel better. I have the energy to work out consistently. I walk 15 or miles weekly, indoors or out. I had a serious energy problem on the more liberal diets. I do about 8 strength exercises per week, doing a few each day so each exercise is repeated 3 times weekly. I'm working for enough strength to handle a little more than needed for all of the ordinary circumstances of life (I have seen my friends develop slow shuffles during the past year or so. I drove one of them, my old drinking buddy, to dialysis yesterday). I am working up from one set of 8 to 2 sets of 15 At 2 sets of fifteen I drop the reps and increases the weight to something that's heaver but easy at 2 sets of 8. I am not interested in developing great strength, but I am very interested in stopping the degradation of life experience that was beginning to evidence itself. Watching my friends fall apart is saddening and frightening. I do 20 or 30 minutes of yoga plus 15 to 20 minutes of meditation most days. The meditation process of letting go gives me a tool that helps me stay on track. If I don't do the meditation, I don't stay on track. I do a little every day. I was surprised after beginning yoga again about 7 days into my change back to Ornish that much of my flexibility (a personal, relative term) had returned after much stiffening with various forms of higher animal protein, higher fat regimens. And not enough energy to be consistent. Oh. I try to be outgoing and friendly. I guess sometimes I 'm just silly.

For me, the best program is Ornish, modifed to the extent mentioned and also modifed by Walfordonian concern for complete nutrition (what's that?) which Ornish does not control for very well. I also mix food colors daily, as well. Kind of fun.

Oh. Many of you already know that I'm 72. When I follow this program, I feel very good. If not, I often do not feel well. I am not presenting myself as a paragon, nor am I suggeting that my program is best for everyone. I did well on it for three years, dropped it and my condition degraded. Began again and am progressing again. Rae will notice that there are no end points in this limited study. My hope is that there will be none until after 2032.

And now I return to my lurker's lair.

Ed Sullivan

[Guest guest]

Just one question: I assume 12% total fat?

Ed: Yep. I use very few package processed foods. Most meals are from scratch. I don't eat avocado. Do eat a very few nuts. Not much tofu. Soy tends to be in the form of a meat analog, purchased form The Farm. Cheaper, and I like it. I make my own soy milk in the cool season. Soy milk is the "fatest" food I eat, generally. I certainly can see reasons to eat more fat, and I did for a long time, but I feel better eating as I now am, and my health is improving. I checked out the Ornish work on prostate cancer a couple of minutes ago. Or, at least his response on WebMd's Q and A. He 's been working on the study since 1997. Does not claim definitive results, yet. I've discovered that returning to Ornish has helped bph more than Saw Palmetto, although sp does help. Actually, I'm sleeping through most nights now, and the urinary urgency thing has greatly moderated. I was not expecting these pleasant surprises.

Ed

[Guest guest]

one more comment.

Just one question: I assume 12% total fat?

Regards

Ed: Sat fat averages between 2.5 and 3.5 grams. 1800 kc per day. Less than 2%.

I suspect that this level of restriction is not necessary, but it is easier to say "no" to myself than to say "maybe."

Ed

[Guest guest]

No one can read that report and not be impressed.

Just some observations:

I noted was the "low protein" for the biosphere.

Just to add some data, Walford's numbers (the anti-aging plan pg 13) are

63 gms/day (13.5%) of which 53 was plant protein.

Fat was 20 gms/day (10%),

tot calories 1860/day. that's 13.5 P / 9.7 F / 76 C.

On Page 39: after 6 months.

Average body weight 126

BG 70

TC 119

BP 76/57

Regards.

Regards.

----- Original Message -----

From: Rodney

Sent: Thursday, October 07, 2004 10:44 AM

Subject: [ ] Re: newbie question on fat ratios

Hi :Perhaps the single most important thing you ought to read - from end to end, and absorb it - is what here has come to be called the WUSTL study. PMID: 15096581All the data it contains are important. But perhaps especially so are the data for carotid IMT measurements - a relatively easy, non-invasive, way to get a proxy measure for probable coronary artery blockage.Once you have read it, then consider that the fat intakes by type, and as a percentage of calories, of the subjects in that study were all over the map. Yet they all appear to be excepionally healthy, in a cardiovascular sense especially. There is a big message here. Please read it.Rodney.

[Guest guest]

Hi, Al--

Those are interesting data. I remember you saying at one point that your mufa/pufa ratios weren't optimal. What's an optimal ratio?

Thanks!

O'Neill

(presenting myself as uptownguy on this group)old542000 <apater@...> wrote:

Hi All,I am 57 years old and:Calories Protein Carbs Fat Sat Fat Chol1685 86.72 301 33.6 5.7 79CPF Ratio: 63-18-16My mono- to polyunsaturated fats ratio is about 1 to 3.CR should avoid the Bill Clinton-like episodes.Cheers, Al Pater.> After seeing your replies I checked a few random months in the > archives to see which of those posters have been in the group the > longest and JWRIGHT, AL PATER and FRANSESCA are some names that stand > out over the last couple of years,

would you both and any others be > willing to say what percentage of calories you have as fat and what > is the break down of fats (omega3, omega6, mono, and saturated), I am > especially interested in hearing from people aged 50 plus as I see > that as an age when CHD really starts to show. And could you also > mention your percentage of calories as protein. This would be very > helpful to me.__________________________________________________

[Guest guest]

Thanks for all you comments/links. I have had time to check some out

and have made comments below. Must add that my background

(qualifications, Degree, MA, etc) are in sociology and cultural

studies and the one thing that drives me crazy is too many variables

hence I like studies that can control for these as much as possible.

(A) Jeff Novick wrote " what we now know is that around 70% of heart

attacks occur in arteries that are less than 50% blocked, and most

in arteries where the blockage doesn't even show up on tests. " THANK

YOU JEFF, that actually resolves my original question about the

Felton study. Basically I can forget Felton as I am going down the

wrong path looking at what blocks the arteries and should be looking

more at " the stabilization of the soft plaque deposits, the increase

in Nitric Oxide in the vessels, the resulting dilating of the

vessels and the reduction in clotting factors, amongst others. " etc

(which are all improved with either an Ornish style diet or probably

a CRON diet (which is more generous on fat levels) as based on

evidence from the WUSTL study. PMID: 15096581 that Rodney pointed me

to. Infact it seems that fat is probably the wrong area for me to be

looking at and some new words to me need to be examined such

as " inflammation " and " homosystein " for CHD risk.

( Thanks to all of you who presented you fat/protein/carb ratios,

this has given me a good idea what is the safe zone for CRON and

whether I am therefore straying to much from this.

© Nurses Health Study: thanks for the info about this. An

interesting study but also a mind boggling one. I had trouble with

the few different variables of the Ornish studies, but this is

immeasurably more complex. I don't know how anybody dare to make a

single conclusion from this study as the people being studied will

have had thousands of different diets covering thousand of food

additives, colours, pesticides etc, all will have had some, maybe

lots of trans/hydrogenated fats in their diets and there will have

been a whole range of bad habits from drug usage (legal and illegal)

plus various different stress levels and exercise levels. Such a

mine field of information over such a long period just leaves me

dizzy and not at all happy to make a single conclusion from it.

(D) What I can gather so far is that there are a few, only a few,

factors that everybody seems to agree upon. (1) Eat loads of

veggies (2) Avoid trans/hydrogenated fats (3) Exercise (4) Don't

smoke or use illegal drugs (5) Keep weight and calories quite low,

everything else seems to have various viewpoints.

(E) While browsing the internet I have come across a few new writers

to me, can anybody say if they are accepted by this group or not (by

accepted I suppose I mean reputable, worthy of respect as opposed to

cranks just out to make money, not that making money is a bad thing,

but at the expense of objectivity I mean):

http://www.mercola.com (ph Mercola, no pubmed references I can

see)

http://www.drfuhrman.com (joel fuhrman, no pubmed references I can

see)

http://www.ravnskov.nu/cholesterol.htm (Ravnskov, U, Hundred and

Twelve pubmed references I can see)

http://www.drmcdougall.com (mcdougall, j, no pub med references I

can see)

thanks, W

[Guest guest]

One criteria I use is do they sell products? Which way does the money flow?

It points to the shyster. For every good source of info there is probably a million not so good.

And each year there is a new product for weight loss. Each year a new just discovered herb that does something - mostly to your pocketbook.

I rely on approved information - medical textbooks, sites like AHA, ACS, ADA.

CR is the only method yet for life extension, not proved in humans, but it's the best we got.

If you are concerned about your family history, the first source is your doctor.

There is more than enough info for you to review at the AHA site.

http://www.ahajournals.org/

Regards.

----- Original Message -----

From: rwalkerad1970

Sent: Friday, October 08, 2004 7:49 AM

Subject: [ ] Re: newbie question on fat ratios

Thanks for all you comments/links. I have had time to check some out and have made comments below. Must add that my background (qualifications, Degree, MA, etc) are in sociology and cultural studies and the one thing that drives me crazy is too many variables hence I like studies that can control for these as much as possible.(A) Jeff Novick wrote "what we now know is that around 70% of heart attacks occur in arteries that are less than 50% blocked, and most in arteries where the blockage doesn't even show up on tests." THANK YOU JEFF, that actually resolves my original question about the Felton study. Basically I can forget Felton as I am going down the wrong path looking at what blocks the arteries and should be looking more at "the stabilization of the soft plaque deposits, the increase in Nitric Oxide in the vessels, the resulting dilating of the vessels and the reduction in clotting factors, amongst others." etc (which are all improved with either an Ornish style diet or probably a CRON diet (which is more generous on fat levels) as based on evidence from the WUSTL study. PMID: 15096581 that Rodney pointed me to. Infact it seems that fat is probably the wrong area for me to be looking at and some new words to me need to be examined such as "inflammation" and "homosystein" for CHD risk.( Thanks to all of you who presented you fat/protein/carb ratios, this has given me a good idea what is the safe zone for CRON and whether I am therefore straying to much from this. © Nurses Health Study: thanks for the info about this. An interesting study but also a mind boggling one. I had trouble with the few different variables of the Ornish studies, but this is immeasurably more complex. I don't know how anybody dare to make a single conclusion from this study as the people being studied will have had thousands of different diets covering thousand of food additives, colours, pesticides etc, all will have had some, maybe lots of trans/hydrogenated fats in their diets and there will have been a whole range of bad habits from drug usage (legal and illegal) plus various different stress levels and exercise levels. Such a mine field of information over such a long period just leaves me dizzy and not at all happy to make a single conclusion from it.(D) What I can gather so far is that there are a few, only a few, factors that everybody seems to agree upon. (1) Eat loads of veggies (2) Avoid trans/hydrogenated fats (3) Exercise (4) Don't smoke or use illegal drugs (5) Keep weight and calories quite low, everything else seems to have various viewpoints.(E) While browsing the internet I have come across a few new writers to me, can anybody say if they are accepted by this group or not (by accepted I suppose I mean reputable, worthy of respect as opposed to cranks just out to make money, not that making money is a bad thing, but at the expense of objectivity I mean):http://www.mercola.com (ph Mercola, no pubmed references I can see)http://www.drfuhrman.com (joel fuhrman, no pubmed references I can see)http://www.ravnskov.nu/cholesterol.htm (Ravnskov, U, Hundred and Twelve pubmed references I can see)http://www.drmcdougall.com (mcdougall, j, no pub med references I can see)thanks, W

[Guest guest]

Hi :

I will leave others to comment on the other three. I have the

following comments regarding Fuhrman. I emailed him a few months ago

to ask if he could refer me to studies which showed that people who

fast either lived longer or were healthier than those who didn't.

His reply was that he was not a research service, and that he didn't

have time to do the search that would be necessary to find them!!!!!

So, clearly, he has never done such a search, and, without doing one,

does not know of such evidence! Quite a revelation, albeit tacit,

from someone apparently in the business of advocating fasting, and

supervising people on fasts.

I got a rather similar reply from another so-called 'fasting guru'.

I do not have an opinion about the merits of fasting. But I

certainly do have an opinion about the people who recommend them.

Rodney.

PS I certainly could come to have an opinion about fasting if I saw

some serious evidence one way or the other.

>

> Thanks for all you comments/links. I have had time to check some

out

> and have made comments below. Must add that my background

> (qualifications, Degree, MA, etc) are in sociology and cultural

> studies and the one thing that drives me crazy is too many

variables

> hence I like studies that can control for these as much as possible.

>

> (A) Jeff Novick wrote " what we now know is that around 70% of heart

> attacks occur in arteries that are less than 50% blocked, and most

> in arteries where the blockage doesn't even show up on tests. "

THANK

> YOU JEFF, that actually resolves my original question about the

> Felton study. Basically I can forget Felton as I am going down the

> wrong path looking at what blocks the arteries and should be

looking

> more at " the stabilization of the soft plaque deposits, the

increase

> in Nitric Oxide in the vessels, the resulting dilating of the

> vessels and the reduction in clotting factors, amongst others. " etc

> (which are all improved with either an Ornish style diet or

probably

> a CRON diet (which is more generous on fat levels) as based on

> evidence from the WUSTL study. PMID: 15096581 that Rodney pointed

me

> to. Infact it seems that fat is probably the wrong area for me to

be

> looking at and some new words to me need to be examined such

> as " inflammation " and " homosystein " for CHD risk.

>

> ( Thanks to all of you who presented you fat/protein/carb ratios,

> this has given me a good idea what is the safe zone for CRON and

> whether I am therefore straying to much from this.

>

> © Nurses Health Study: thanks for the info about this. An

> interesting study but also a mind boggling one. I had trouble with

> the few different variables of the Ornish studies, but this is

> immeasurably more complex. I don't know how anybody dare to make a

> single conclusion from this study as the people being studied will

> have had thousands of different diets covering thousand of food

> additives, colours, pesticides etc, all will have had some, maybe

> lots of trans/hydrogenated fats in their diets and there will have

> been a whole range of bad habits from drug usage (legal and

illegal)

> plus various different stress levels and exercise levels. Such a

> mine field of information over such a long period just leaves me

> dizzy and not at all happy to make a single conclusion from it.

>

> (D) What I can gather so far is that there are a few, only a few,

> factors that everybody seems to agree upon. (1) Eat loads of

> veggies (2) Avoid trans/hydrogenated fats (3) Exercise (4) Don't

> smoke or use illegal drugs (5) Keep weight and calories quite low,

> everything else seems to have various viewpoints.

>

> (E) While browsing the internet I have come across a few new

writers

> to me, can anybody say if they are accepted by this group or not

(by

> accepted I suppose I mean reputable, worthy of respect as opposed

to

> cranks just out to make money, not that making money is a bad

thing,

> but at the expense of objectivity I mean):

>

> http://www.mercola.com (ph Mercola, no pubmed references I can

> see)

> http://www.drfuhrman.com (joel fuhrman, no pubmed references I can

> see)

> http://www.ravnskov.nu/cholesterol.htm (Ravnskov, U, Hundred and

> Twelve pubmed references I can see)

>

> http://www.drmcdougall.com (mcdougall, j, no pub med references I

> can see)

>

> thanks, W

[Guest guest]

Jeff, we are all very very fortunate to have you here with your

training, experience and expertise posting to this list..

You speak of the dilating of vessels and influence of NO2.. is this

the improvement in endothelial dysfunction and myocardial perfusion

that I have been reading about?

When you say " stabilization " are you referring to stopping progression

of plaque or somthg else?

thanks.

> >>I don't know this to be true but I wouldn't doubt Pritikin influenced

> Ornish but to my knowledge only Ornish demonstrated actual regression of

> atherosclerotic plaques or progression.

>

> For the record, one of our main researchers is involved with both Ornish

> and us, in some recent studies and 2 years ago, we were both, Dean and

> I, keynotes at a medical conference in Aspen.

>

> If you look at the Ornish data, the actual amount of regression over the

> 1, 3, 5 year periods is minimal. Yes, there was regression but that is

> not what is responsible for the benefit seen in the patients.

>

> The thought was that most heart attacks were due to the narrowing of the

> arteries till there was no more room for blood flow and than, BAM, heart

> attack. But, what we now know is that around 70% of heart attacks occur

> in arteries that are less than 50% blocked, and most in arteries where

> the blockage doesn't even show up on tests. IN fact, if you have

> arteries that are very blocked and you are alive, it is because you have

> developed secondary circulation or corrolary artieries. So, if its not

> the narrowing that is the problem, what is.

>

> What we now know is the real benefit is due to the stabilization of the

> soft plaque deposits, the increase in Nitric Oxide in the vessels, the

> resulting dilating of the vessels and the reduction in clotting factors,

> amongst others. It's the soft plaque that ruptures, causing an

> increase in clotting factors in the area which than cause the blockage

> and the ensuing heart attack.

>

> So, while " reversal " is more appealing, and makes a better headline, the

> reality is " stabilization " is the real benefit. Otherwise, it would

> take forever to see the benefit that we see sometimes in not only weeks,

> but days.

>

> Also, in reagrd to the comments on what component of the program is the

> most effective, a 15 year study on the same program without the exercise

> or stress management was published twice by Caldwell Essylsteen who got

> as good if not better results than the Ornish data. All he used was

> diet and on a rare occasion a small amount of a statin in some patients.

>

> PS. After being diagnosed with severe atherosclerosis and CVD at the age

> of 41, at the age of 75, when he died, arranged to have his

> autposy made public and published in the NEJM. At the time, they said

> his arteries were clean as a whistle and flexible as a teenager with no

> signs of CVD. It's a shame that the late Dr Atkins, didn't make the

> same arrangements.

[Guest guest]

> Hi, Al--

>

> Those are interesting data. I remember you saying at one point that

your mufa/pufa ratios weren't optimal. What's an optimal ratio?

>

Hi All,

Experts appear to consider 1/4 to be the maximum recommended level of

MUFA/PUFA. Often CRers refer to 1/1 as being optimal.

Cheers, Al Pater.

[Guest guest]

It is Dean Ornish. I think he resides in Marin County, CA, now. Has some really good ideas that even if only some were adopted, would be of a help. Some of the recipes, from outstanding chefs, are wonderful!

Ruth P.

From: " rwalkerad1970 " <rwalkerad1970@...>

Reply-

Date: Thu, 07 Oct 2004 14:50:05 -0000

Subject: [ ] re: newbie question on fat ratios

" : Ornish is probably the world's leading authority on this

subject. It sounds like you've never heard of him which is pretty

surprising. "

> I did not mean to be disrespectful to Ornish, I honestly

had never heard of him, I just checked some links posted in reply to

my message. He obviously has importance to this group based on your

replies. (I don't live in America, so have only had access to a few

library books from American doctors.)

After seeing your replies I checked a few random months in the

archives to see which of those posters have been in the group the

longest and JWRIGHT, AL PATER and FRANSESCA are some names that stand

out over the last couple of years, would you both and any others be

willing to say what percentage of calories you have as fat and what

is the break down of fats (omega3, omega6, mono, and saturated), I am

especially interested in hearing from people aged 50 plus as I see

that as an age when CHD really starts to show. And could you also

mention your percentage of calories as protein. This would be very

helpful to me.

The reason I got hung up on the felton study was that it seemed to

answer my question based on simple logic (poly fats clog up around

50% of the hearts of CHD patents)so they must logically be the most

dangerous fats. That kind of reasoning meant I could avaoid having to

put faith in any one doctor or collection of doctors who may mislead

me due to my ignorance in the area of nutritional science/health etc.

But as a number of people have come out strongly in favour of DR.

Ornish then it would seem that he is most likely correct (due to the

fact that some of you posting must be above 50, are following his

guidlines and are still alive and free from heart problems I presume.

When I say I am new to the internet I really mean that, my previous

reading has been Dr.Walfords last book and a much earlier book about

calorie restriction I read sometimes in the early 1990s. And what I

picked up from television/news about eating a low fat, low protein,

high carb diet being best and Dr.Walford seemed to fit nicely with

that view point.

So at the moment and for the last decade I have been eating low fat,

high carb (wholegrains of course), low protein. But as I get older I

thought I would have another look at the area of calorie restriction

and nutrition as I recently gained internet access. And fats was one

area I looked into, but at this point only from the perspective of

what clogs the heart, rather than the type of studies done by Dean

Ornish etc. Have heard of the nurses health study, but not looked

into this yet.

But my biggest concern as I head into my later thirties is that I do

not do something stupid now that will cause a problem fifteen to

twenty years from now. So I don't want to cut anything out (sat

fats, poly or even mono) and then suddenly get a nasty surprise when

I hit 55 years of age as with Bill Clinton etc.

many thanks for all the replies

[Guest guest]

Hi Ruth:

If you have a source for some of the wonderful recipes you have in

mind, it will, I am sure, be much appreciated by everyone. Thanks.

Rodney.

--- In , Ruth <cccucc@m...>

wrote:

> It is Dean Ornish. I think he resides in Marin County, CA, now.

Has some

> really good ideas that even if only some were adopted, would be of

a help.

> Some of the recipes, from outstanding chefs, are wonderful!

>

> Ruth P.

>

> From: " rwalkerad1970 " <rwalkerad1970@y...>

> Reply-

> Date: Thu, 07 Oct 2004 14:50:05 -0000

>

> Subject: [ ] re: newbie question on fat ratios

>

>

>

> " : Ornish is probably the world's leading authority on this

> subject. It sounds like you've never heard of him which is pretty

> surprising. "

>

> > I did not mean to be disrespectful to Ornish, I honestly

> had never heard of him, I just checked some links posted in reply to

> my message. He obviously has importance to this group based on your

> replies. (I don't live in America, so have only had access to a few

> library books from American doctors.)

>

> After seeing your replies I checked a few random months in the

> archives to see which of those posters have been in the group the

> longest and JWRIGHT, AL PATER and FRANSESCA are some names that

stand

> out over the last couple of years, would you both and any others be

> willing to say what percentage of calories you have as fat and what

> is the break down of fats (omega3, omega6, mono, and saturated), I

am

> especially interested in hearing from people aged 50 plus as I see

> that as an age when CHD really starts to show. And could you also

> mention your percentage of calories as protein. This would be very

> helpful to me.

>

>

> The reason I got hung up on the felton study was that it seemed to

> answer my question based on simple logic (poly fats clog up around

> 50% of the hearts of CHD patents)so they must logically be the most

> dangerous fats. That kind of reasoning meant I could avaoid having

to

> put faith in any one doctor or collection of doctors who may mislead

> me due to my ignorance in the area of nutritional science/health

etc.

> But as a number of people have come out strongly in favour of DR.

> Ornish then it would seem that he is most likely correct (due to the

> fact that some of you posting must be above 50, are following his

> guidlines and are still alive and free from heart problems I

presume.

>

> When I say I am new to the internet I really mean that, my previous

> reading has been Dr.Walfords last book and a much earlier book about

> calorie restriction I read sometimes in the early 1990s. And what I

> picked up from television/news about eating a low fat, low protein,

> high carb diet being best and Dr.Walford seemed to fit nicely with

> that view point.

>

> So at the moment and for the last decade I have been eating low fat,

> high carb (wholegrains of course), low protein. But as I get older

I

> thought I would have another look at the area of calorie restriction

> and nutrition as I recently gained internet access. And fats was

one

> area I looked into, but at this point only from the perspective of

> what clogs the heart, rather than the type of studies done by Dean

> Ornish etc. Have heard of the nurses health study, but not looked

> into this yet.

>

> But my biggest concern as I head into my later thirties is that I do

> not do something stupid now that will cause a problem fifteen to

> twenty years from now. So I don't want to cut anything out (sat

> fats, poly or even mono) and then suddenly get a nasty surprise when

> I hit 55 years of age as with Bill Clinton etc.

>

>

> many thanks for all the replies

>

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

----- Original Message -----

From: jwwright

Sent: Thursday, October 07, 2004 2:08 PM

Subject: Re: [ ] Re: newbie question on fat ratios

No one can read that report and not be impressed.

But...but....what's a wustlstudy? Something to do with Washington University Saint Louis? Study?

Seriously, I don't know what you're talking about, and I'd like to.

Re: Biosphere figures, noticed opun publication that they came very close to the macronutrients in Ornish. Probably better than Ornish in micronutrient balance and Omega 3 fatty acids because of small amounts of fish, massive fresh vegetables.

Also, Ray Kurzweil's "The 10% solution" is based on Pritikin which is akin to Ornish non-reversal suggestions. He even includes meditation and very mild calorie restriction. I was impressed with his organic intelligence when I read the book. I knew nothing at that time of his work in a.i.

Thanks,

Ed the wustl ignorant.

[Guest guest]

I've just found my resources so I'll look them up. As they are in the books, I don't think I should give any more than the Name and pps. they cover; don't want to get into any copyright infringement.

Will do asap.

Ruth P.

From: " Rodney " <perspect1111@...>

Reply-

Date: Fri, 08 Oct 2004 20:08:48 -0000

Subject: [ ] Re: newbie question on fat ratios

Hi Ruth:

If you have a source for some of the wonderful recipes you have in

mind, it will, I am sure, be much appreciated by everyone. Thanks.

Rodney.

--- In , Ruth <cccucc@m...>

wrote:

> It is Dean Ornish. I think he resides in Marin County, CA, now.

Has some

> really good ideas that even if only some were adopted, would be of

a help.

> Some of the recipes, from outstanding chefs, are wonderful!

>

> Ruth P.

>

> From: " rwalkerad1970 " <rwalkerad1970@y...>

> Reply-

> Date: Thu, 07 Oct 2004 14:50:05 -0000

>

> Subject: [ ] re: newbie question on fat ratios

>

>

>

> " : Ornish is probably the world's leading authority on this

> subject. It sounds like you've never heard of him which is pretty

> surprising. "

>

> > I did not mean to be disrespectful to Ornish, I honestly

> had never heard of him, I just checked some links posted in reply to

> my message. He obviously has importance to this group based on your

> replies. (I don't live in America, so have only had access to a few

> library books from American doctors.)

>

> After seeing your replies I checked a few random months in the

> archives to see which of those posters have been in the group the

> longest and JWRIGHT, AL PATER and FRANSESCA are some names that

stand

> out over the last couple of years, would you both and any others be

> willing to say what percentage of calories you have as fat and what

> is the break down of fats (omega3, omega6, mono, and saturated), I

am

> especially interested in hearing from people aged 50 plus as I see

> that as an age when CHD really starts to show. And could you also

> mention your percentage of calories as protein. This would be very

> helpful to me.

>

>

> The reason I got hung up on the felton study was that it seemed to

> answer my question based on simple logic (poly fats clog up around

> 50% of the hearts of CHD patents)so they must logically be the most

> dangerous fats. That kind of reasoning meant I could avaoid having

to

> put faith in any one doctor or collection of doctors who may mislead

> me due to my ignorance in the area of nutritional science/health

etc.

> But as a number of people have come out strongly in favour of DR.

> Ornish then it would seem that he is most likely correct (due to the

> fact that some of you posting must be above 50, are following his

> guidlines and are still alive and free from heart problems I

presume.

>

> When I say I am new to the internet I really mean that, my previous

> reading has been Dr.Walfords last book and a much earlier book about

> calorie restriction I read sometimes in the early 1990s. And what I

> picked up from television/news about eating a low fat, low protein,

> high carb diet being best and Dr.Walford seemed to fit nicely with

> that view point.

>

> So at the moment and for the last decade I have been eating low fat,

> high carb (wholegrains of course), low protein. But as I get older

I

> thought I would have another look at the area of calorie restriction

> and nutrition as I recently gained internet access. And fats was

one

> area I looked into, but at this point only from the perspective of

> what clogs the heart, rather than the type of studies done by Dean

> Ornish etc. Have heard of the nurses health study, but not looked

> into this yet.

>

> But my biggest concern as I head into my later thirties is that I do

> not do something stupid now that will cause a problem fifteen to

> twenty years from now. So I don't want to cut anything out (sat

> fats, poly or even mono) and then suddenly get a nasty surprise when

> I hit 55 years of age as with Bill Clinton etc.

>

>

> many thanks for all the replies

>

>

>

>

>