Re: Runner dies during Toronto Marathon

[Guest guest]

Yeah, here we go again..... I'm not sure that I should feel compelled to

defend running but in the interest of clarity. The %5 requiring medical

attention were " cold " because it was cold and rainy... runners often under

dress for conditions expecting to generate excess heat from their running

effort. Cold rain can interfere with that plan.

The one heart attack may have been triggered by the effort but I didn't see

any suggestion of causation. Far more people die of heart attacks while

sleeping. I hope that doesn't suggest that sleeping is more dangerous than

running marathons in cold rain. I often participate in large runs which

attract less than serious runners. I recall one runner death a few years

back during a large 10K from a congenital heart defect.

A little closer to home, a local jogger (and there aren't that many where I

live) dropped dead on the side of the road (from an aneurysm I think). He

might be alive today if he didn't run, or he could have dropped dead while

having sex with his wife. Death happens. CR will not make it go away, only

postpone it if we're lucky and correct about our unproven assumptions.

JR

-----Original Message-----

From: old542000 [mailto:apater@...]

Sent: Monday, October 18, 2004 8:40 AM

Subject: [ ] Runner dies during Toronto Marathon

Hi All,

Here we go again, always heart attacks for runners

and 5% of runners required medical attention in the

half marathon.

Runner dies during Toronto Marathon

Last Updated Sun, 17 Oct 2004 18:21:08 EDT

TORONTO - A 43-year-old man died of a heart attack during the Toronto

Marathon. The man collapsed one kilometre from the finish line Sunday

morning.

http://www.cbc.ca/story/canada/national/2004/10/17/Runner_041017.html

Cheers, Alan Pater

[Guest guest]

In my area, a 30 year old woman, wife of a colleague, with no known

health problems, dropped dead of a " heart attack " (sudden cardiac

death) the day after the marathon.....

Risky business!

On Mon, 18 Oct 2004 10:26:31 -0500, <crjohnr@...> wrote:

>

> Yeah, here we go again..... I'm not sure that I should feel compelled to

> defend running but in the interest of clarity. The %5 requiring medical

> attention were " cold " because it was cold and rainy... runners often under

> dress for conditions expecting to generate excess heat from their running

> effort. Cold rain can interfere with that plan.

>

> The one heart attack may have been triggered by the effort but I didn't see

> any suggestion of causation. Far more people die of heart attacks while

> sleeping. I hope that doesn't suggest that sleeping is more dangerous than

> running marathons in cold rain. I often participate in large runs which

> attract less than serious runners. I recall one runner death a few years

> back during a large 10K from a congenital heart defect.

>

> A little closer to home, a local jogger (and there aren't that many where I

> live) dropped dead on the side of the road (from an aneurysm I think). He

> might be alive today if he didn't run, or he could have dropped dead while

> having sex with his wife. Death happens. CR will not make it go away, only

> postpone it if we're lucky and correct about our unproven assumptions.

>

> JR

>

> -----Original Message-----

> From: old542000 [mailto:apater@...]

> Sent: Monday, October 18, 2004 8:40 AM

>

> Subject: [ ] Runner dies during Toronto Marathon

>

> Hi All,

>

> Here we go again, always heart attacks for runners

> and 5% of runners required medical attention in the

> half marathon.

>

> Runner dies during Toronto Marathon

> Last Updated Sun, 17 Oct 2004 18:21:08 EDT

> TORONTO - A 43-year-old man died of a heart attack during the Toronto

> Marathon. The man collapsed one kilometre from the finish line Sunday

> morning.

>

> http://www.cbc.ca/story/canada/national/2004/10/17/Runner_041017.html

>

> Cheers, Alan Pater

>

>

[Guest guest]

Is anyone aware of the mechanism that would correlate dying a day " later " to

a physical stressor? Besides one of those secret kung fu kicks...

Maybe it was the bagel she ate at the finish line, or perhaps she drank too

much water which can in fact kill you.

I don't advocate running marathons or training at that distance as it is

probably beyond the sweet spot on the curve for max benefit, but I don't

think it warrants a warning from the surgeon general either. In the grand

scheme of things there are far more dangerous activities that many still

practice, like eating Twinkies.

JR

-----Original Message-----

From: Dowling [mailto:christopher.a.dowling@...]

Sent: Monday, October 18, 2004 11:09 AM

Subject: Re: [ ] Runner dies during Toronto Marathon

In my area, a 30 year old woman, wife of a colleague, with no known

health problems, dropped dead of a " heart attack " (sudden cardiac

death) the day after the marathon.....

Risky business!

On Mon, 18 Oct 2004 10:26:31 -0500, <crjohnr@...>

wrote:

>

[Guest guest]

Yes, there was speculation regarding the over-hydration hypothesis,

but this has been difficult to verify beyond speculation. It would be

expected one might drink a bit after running 26.2 miles.

On Mon, 18 Oct 2004 11:34:10 -0500, <crjohnr@...> wrote:

>

> Is anyone aware of the mechanism that would correlate dying a day " later " to

> a physical stressor? Besides one of those secret kung fu kicks...

>

> Maybe it was the bagel she ate at the finish line, or perhaps she drank too

> much water which can in fact kill you.

>

> I don't advocate running marathons or training at that distance as it is

> probably beyond the sweet spot on the curve for max benefit, but I don't

> think it warrants a warning from the surgeon general either. In the grand

> scheme of things there are far more dangerous activities that many still

> practice, like eating Twinkies.

>

> JR

>

>

>

> -----Original Message-----

> From: Dowling [mailto:christopher.a.dowling@...]

> Sent: Monday, October 18, 2004 11:09 AM

>

> Subject: Re: [ ] Runner dies during Toronto Marathon

>

> In my area, a 30 year old woman, wife of a colleague, with no known

> health problems, dropped dead of a " heart attack " (sudden cardiac

> death) the day after the marathon.....

>

> Risky business!

>

> On Mon, 18 Oct 2004 10:26:31 -0500, <crjohnr@...>

> wrote:

> >

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Anyone have any studies on Twinkies?

Arch Intern Med. 1996 Nov 11;156(20):2297-302. Related Articles, Links

Comment in:

Arch Intern Med. 1997 Jun 9;157(11):1269-70.

The cardiovascular complications of vigorous physical activity.

PD.

Section of Preventive Cardiology, University of Pittsburgh Heart

Institute, PA, USA.

OBJECTIVE: To review the cardiovascular risks of exercise for

practicing physicians. DATA SOURCES: Relevant medical literature as

well as the author's clinical and research experience on the topic.

RESULTS: The predominant causes of exercise-related cardiovascular

complications are congenital abnormalities in young subjects and

atherosclerotic coronary disease in adults. The absolute incidence of

exercise deaths is low. Only approximately 0.75 and 0.13 per 100,000

young male and female athletes and 6 per 100,000 middle-aged men die

during exertion per year. Nevertheless, exercise does acutely and

transiently increase the risk of cardiac events. CONCLUSIONS: Routine

cardiovascular testing to prevent exercise events (echocardiography in

the young and exercise testing in adults) has limited usefulness

because of the rarity of such events, the cost of screening, and poor

predictive accuracy of exercise testing for exercise events.

Physicians should (1) perform routine screening and cardiac

auscultation in young athletes; (2) carefully evaluate

exercise-induced symptoms; and (3) ensure that adults know the

symptoms of cardiac ischemia.

Publication Types:

Review

Review, Tutorial

PMID: 8911236 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

On Mon, 18 Oct 2004 11:34:10 -0500, <crjohnr@...> wrote:

>

> Is anyone aware of the mechanism that would correlate dying a day " later " to

> a physical stressor? Besides one of those secret kung fu kicks...

>

> Maybe it was the bagel she ate at the finish line, or perhaps she drank too

> much water which can in fact kill you.

>

> I don't advocate running marathons or training at that distance as it is

> probably beyond the sweet spot on the curve for max benefit, but I don't

> think it warrants a warning from the surgeon general either. In the grand

> scheme of things there are far more dangerous activities that many still

> practice, like eating Twinkies.

>

> JR

>

>

>

> -----Original Message-----

> From: Dowling [mailto:christopher.a.dowling@...]

> Sent: Monday, October 18, 2004 11:09 AM

>

> Subject: Re: [ ] Runner dies during Toronto Marathon

>

> In my area, a 30 year old woman, wife of a colleague, with no known

> health problems, dropped dead of a " heart attack " (sudden cardiac

> death) the day after the marathon.....

>

> Risky business!

>

> On Mon, 18 Oct 2004 10:26:31 -0500, <crjohnr@...>

> wrote:

> >

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

It does point up the need for something like stress tests, angiograms, etc. CR is not going to remove what is there.

Regards.

----- Original Message -----

From:

Sent: Monday, October 18, 2004 10:26 AM

Subject: RE: [ ] Runner dies during Toronto Marathon

A little closer to home, a local jogger (and there aren't that many where Ilive) dropped dead on the side of the road (from an aneurysm I think). Hemight be alive today if he didn't run, or he could have dropped dead whilehaving sex with his wife. Death happens. CR will not make it go away, onlypostpone it if we're lucky and correct about our unproven assumptions.JR

[Guest guest]

Hi folks:

below questions the issue of 'causation'. Just so that no one

is confused about the **point** here ............

Causation is not the issue, imo. It is presumed that people who

compete in marathons will have trained very extensively. I cannot

imagine anyone attempting it without spending many months in

preparation and thousands of miles run. The runner who died was

reported to have collapsed near the finish line. So he clearly had

trained extensively, and was very fit, or else he would have become

exhausted long before the end of the race.

So in this case, and in all others like it, it is clear that the

runner's considerable fitness had done nothing to either:

A) Clean out his arteries, or

Prevent particles of plaque break off and becoming lodged in some

critical location downstream.

The same reasoning applies to people who die from a heart attack in

their sleep. Their 'lifestyle', whatever it was, did not help

maintain clean arteries.

But the runner's lifestyle - part of which was an enormous amount of

exercise - is more significant for us because it contradicts those

who, for their own reasons, have come to believe that extensive

exercise confers protection against heart disease. (We haven't yet

heard from the people who believe that extensive sleep confers

protection against heart disease. When we do ............ !).

This incident shows, yet again, that " fitness has absolutely nothing

to do with health " , since this runner was clearly extremely fit and

extremely unhealthy, both at the same time.

The **point** is that events of this kind show that exercise does NOT

confer the protection some people like to claim when pressuring

others, often for financial motives, to take extensive exercise.

Rodney.

Of course exercise is just fine, if you have clean arteries.

-----------------------

--- In , " " <crjohnr@b...>

wrote:

> The one heart attack may have been triggered by the effort but I

didn't see

> any suggestion of causation. Far more people die of heart attacks

while

> sleeping

> Hi All,

>

> Here we go again, always heart attacks for runners

> and 5% of runners required medical attention in the

> half marathon.

>

> Runner dies during Toronto Marathon

> Last Updated Sun, 17 Oct 2004 18:21:08 EDT

> TORONTO - A 43-year-old man died of a heart attack during the

Toronto

> Marathon. The man collapsed one kilometre from the finish line

Sunday

> morning.

>

>

http://www.cbc.ca/story/canada/national/2004/10/17/Runner_041017.html

>

>

> Cheers, Alan Pater

[Guest guest]

Arrhythmia seems to be a problem with little known about it.

Z Kardiol. 2004;93 Suppl 1:I4-6.

[sudden cardiac death (SCD) and guidelines for SCD]Andresen D.Medizinische Klinik I, Vivantes Klinikum am Urban, Dieffenbacher Str. 1, 10967 Berlin, Germany.Sudden cardiac death is mainly caused by arrhythmic events, triggered by ischemia. About half of the affected persons had no previous diagnosis of coronary heart disease, thus rendering them practically unreachable for specific preventive measures. This fact makes it necessary to optimize reanimation conditions. The establishment of international reanimation standards (ILCOR) has stimulated an intensified scientific evaluation of therapeutic options. While the use of vasopressin, adrenaline and reanimation by bystanders is being evaluated at the moment, amiodarone has not fulfilled the expectation of reducing mortality. Secondary prevention of sudden cardiac death after cardiac events is based on betablockers, ACE inhibitors and antilipemic therapy. Guidelines on prevention of sudden cardiac death also recommend aldosterone blockade and n-3-fatty acids. Persons at highest risk gain most from the use of ICDs, yet it has not been shown that their use immediately after myocardial infarction reduces mortality.PMID: 15021998

----- Original Message -----

From:

Sent: Monday, October 18, 2004 11:34 AM

Subject: RE: [ ] Runner dies during Toronto Marathon

Is anyone aware of the mechanism that would correlate dying a day "later" toa physical stressor? Besides one of those secret kung fu kicks...Maybe it was the bagel she ate at the finish line, or perhaps she drank toomuch water which can in fact kill you.I don't advocate running marathons or training at that distance as it isprobably beyond the sweet spot on the curve for max benefit, but I don'tthink it warrants a warning from the surgeon general either. In the grandscheme of things there are far more dangerous activities that many stillpractice, like eating Twinkies.JR

[Guest guest]

Just to stick in my $.02 here. The actual marathon would be a lot more

stressful than any of the training. In the actual race, one would be trying

to finish in the best time possible, pushing/straining to do that, and the

added stress of noticing how well or badly one's competitors were doing.

Also the push to " finish " no matter how tired, hot, dehydrated etc one is.

on 10/18/2004 1:20 PM, Rodney at perspect1111@... wrote:

>

> Hi folks:

>

> below questions the issue of 'causation'. Just so that no one

> is confused about the **point** here ............

[Guest guest]

I just finished a 5 mile run so if I suddenly stop posting tomorrow, you'll know what happened...

JR

from Chris's post...

Arch Intern Med. 1996 Nov 11;156(20):2297-302. Related Articles, Links

Comment in:

Arch Intern Med. 1997 Jun 9;157(11):1269-70.

CONCLUSIONS: Routine cardiovascular testing to prevent exercise events (echocardiography in

the young and exercise testing in adults) has limited usefulness

because of the rarity of such events, the cost of screening, and poor

predictive accuracy of exercise testing for exercise events.

-----Original Message-----From: jwwright [mailto:jwwright@...]Sent: Monday, October 18, 2004 12:09 PM Subject: Re: [ ] Runner dies during Toronto Marathon

It does point up the need for something like stress tests, angiograms, etc. CR is not going to remove what is there.

Regards.

----- Original Message -----

From:

Sent: Monday, October 18, 2004 10:26 AM

Subject: RE: [ ] Runner dies during Toronto Marathon

A little closer to home, a local jogger (and there aren't that many where Ilive) dropped dead on the side of the road (from an aneurysm I think). Hemight be alive today if he didn't run, or he could have dropped dead whilehaving sex with his wife. Death happens. CR will not make it go away, onlypostpone it if we're lucky and correct about our unproven assumptions.JR

[Guest guest]

Hi :

Is there a reason everyone aged 40+ or exercising excessively is not

given the opportunity to have a carotid IMT ultrasound done?

It is not expensive; not invasive; and has been available, as I

understand it, for years.

Rodney.

> > >

> >

> >

> >

[Guest guest]

Screening studies, as a rule, are somewhat controversial. Debate goes

on about when screening tests are appropriate, on a cost/benefit

analysis, and at what age, for colon cancer, cholesterol, PSA levels,

mammograms, etc.

I haven't looked into the analysis of the carotid IMT, but, no doubt,

its costs would add up substantially if widely utilized.

Although the US health care " system " is moving slowly towards

conformity of standards of care, practices vary widely from region to

region and even physician to physician. Standardization of practice

is not currently in effect!

On Mon, 18 Oct 2004 19:35:08 -0000, Rodney <perspect1111@...> wrote:

>

>

> Hi :

>

> Is there a reason everyone aged 40+ or exercising excessively is not

> given the opportunity to have a carotid IMT ultrasound done?

>

> It is not expensive; not invasive; and has been available, as I

> understand it, for years.

>

> Rodney.

>

>

> > > >

> > >

> > >

> > >

[Guest guest]

Hi All,

I have always held the belief that athletes and especially extreme

athletes are those who are better able to be athletes without much

difficulty due to increased performance of their cardiovascular

system. That is, those who are healthy are predisposed to

athleticism.

That said, the below is the most reasonable explanation for the high

sudden deaths of extreme athletes.

``The data of Siscovick and his colleagues

clearly show that persons who

have undetected heart disease and who are

therefore at risk of sudden

death, reduce their overall risk of sudden

death if they exercise

regularly. During exercise, however, their risk

is increased acutely.

The researchers collected detailed information

on all persons dying

suddenly during a one-year period in Seattle,

Washington. They then

excluded from their analysis all those persons

who were ill, who had

been off work or who had experienced any

symptoms before their sudden

deaths. They were left with a total of 145

sudden deaths in a group of

persons who were for all intents and purposes

healthy right up to the

moment that they suddenly died. Analysis of

these data showed that

those persons who exercised vigorously on a

regular basis had an

overall risk of sudden death about two-thirds

that of the non-exercisers.

Interestingly, though, the risk of sudden

deaths in the exercising group

while these persons were exercising was

increased acutely for the

duration of the exercise bout, above the

overall risk of the

non-exercisers. Thus although the total group

of exercisers had a

reduced risk of sudden death, that subset of

exercisers with advanced

heart disease resistant to all preventive

measures including exercise,

and who would ultimately die suddenly, were

more likely to die while

they were exercising rather than when they were

at rest. This finding

explains why the sudden death of athletes

usually occurs during

exercise and why such events must not be

construed to indicate that

exercise is dangerous and to be avoided.

[...]''

Cheers, Al Pater.

--- In , " old542000 " <apater@m...>

wrote:

>

> Hi All,

>

> Here we go again, always heart attacks for runners

> and 5% of runners required medical attention in the

> half marathon.

>

> Runner dies during Toronto Marathon

> Last Updated Sun, 17 Oct 2004 18:21:08 EDT

> TORONTO - A 43-year-old man died of a heart attack during the

Toronto

> Marathon. The man collapsed one kilometre from the finish line

Sunday

> morning.

>

>

http://www.cbc.ca/story/canada/national/2004/10/17/Runner_041017.html

>

>

> Cheers, Alan Pater

[Guest guest]

Hi :

I understand that in Canada a carotid IMT test costs $80. Not much

in comparison with quadruple bypass surgery, or hospitalization

related to cardiac events. Especially when we know that 90% of the

population has this disease in their 20s - according to a study

(Bogalusa?) posted here recently by JW.

It also seems to be a reliable test, based on the following article

and, perhaps especially, its numerous relevant references.

http://cmbi.bjmu.edu.cn/heart973net/db-disease/Praxis%20Medicine%20-%

20Carotid%20Artery%20Intima-Media%

20Thickness.files/cpmrep.files/cpmrep_main.htm

http://snipurl.com/9vat

Physicians must know this test is available. One wonders why they do

not incorporate it into the regular annual checkup every five or ten

years.

Rodney.

> > > > >

> > > >

> > > >

> > > >

[Guest guest]

Hi folks:

Am I just dense? Or is the below essentially saying: " Exercise is

just fine. Only avoid it if you are gonna die from it. " ?????

This sounds to me like, and about as useful as, Mark Twain's advice

about buying stocks: " It's easy, buy a stock and after it has gone

up sell it. If it ain't gonna go up, don't buy it " .

Better advice, imo, might be: " Make sure you have clean arteries

before exercising excessively. If they are clean, do all you want. "

Rodney.

> Interestingly, though, the risk of sudden

> deaths in the exercising group

> while these persons were exercising was

> increased acutely for the

> duration of the exercise bout, above the

> overall risk of the

> non-exercisers. Thus although the total group

> of exercisers had a

> reduced risk of sudden death, that subset of

> exercisers with advanced

> heart disease resistant to all preventive

> measures including exercise,

> and who would ultimately die suddenly, were

> more likely to die while

> they were exercising rather than when they were

> at rest. This finding

> explains why the sudden death of athletes

> usually occurs during

> exercise and why such events must not be

> construed to indicate that

> exercise is dangerous and to be avoided.

> [...]

[Guest guest]

Correct me if *I* am wrong it's saying:

Those who are at risk of sudden death (presumably during exertion)

increase their risk of dying from exertion *during* exertion but their

*overall* risk of dying (from ALL exertional causes) is reduced by

chronic exertion (exercise).

Is this right?

Therefore, never exert or chronically exert.

Right?

>

> Hi folks:

>

> Am I just dense? Or is the below essentially saying: " Exercise is

> just fine. Only avoid it if you are gonna die from it. " ?????

>

> This sounds to me like, and about as useful as, Mark Twain's advice

> about buying stocks: " It's easy, buy a stock and after it has gone

> up sell it. If it ain't gonna go up, don't buy it " .

>

> Better advice, imo, might be: " Make sure you have clean arteries

> before exercising excessively. If they are clean, do all you want. "

>

> Rodney.

>

> > Interestingly, though, the risk of sudden

> > deaths in the exercising group

> > while these persons were exercising was

> > increas

ed acutely for the

> > duration of the exercise bout, above the

> > overall risk of the

> > non-exercisers. Thus although the total group

> > of exercisers had a

> > reduced risk of sudden death, that subset of

> > exercisers with advanced

> > heart disease resistant to all preventive

> > measures including exercise,

> > and who would ultimately die suddenly, were

> > more likely to die while

> > they were exercising rather than when they were

> > at rest. This finding

> > explains why the sudden death of athletes

> > usually occurs during

> > exercise and why such events must not be

> > construed to indicate that

> > exercise is dangerous and to be avoided.

> > [...]

[Guest guest]

I think you hit the nail on the coffin.

----- Original Message -----

From: Rodney

Sent: Monday, October 18, 2004 3:36 PM

Subject: [ ] Re: Runner dies during Toronto Marathon

Hi folks:Am I just dense? Or is the below essentially saying: "Exercise is just fine. Only avoid it if you are gonna die from it." ?????This sounds to me like, and about as useful as, Mark Twain's advice about buying stocks: "It's easy, buy a stock and after it has gone up sell it. If it ain't gonna go up, don't buy it".Better advice, imo, might be: "Make sure you have clean arteries before exercising excessively. If they are clean, do all you want."Rodney.> Interestingly, though, the risk of sudden > deaths in the exercising group> while these persons were exercising was > increased acutely for the> duration of the exercise bout, above the > overall risk of the> non-exercisers. Thus although the total group > of exercisers had a> reduced risk of sudden death, that subset of > exercisers with advanced> heart disease resistant to all preventive > measures including exercise,> and who would ultimately die suddenly, were > more likely to die while> they were exercising rather than when they were > at rest. This finding> explains why the sudden death of athletes > usually occurs during> exercise and why such events must not be > construed to indicate that> exercise is dangerous and to be avoided. > [...]

[Guest guest]

Hi Chris:

I think you have it right. The problem is that no one exercises

aggressively who KNOWS they are in poor health, and therefore very

possibly might die from exercise.

But because of the absence of symptoms until shortly before, or until

the time of, a major event, many people who are in very poor health

do not know it. Some of them are misled to believe that, because

they are " fit " , they must be in good health.

So among the vast majority of people who have no apparent, overt,

symptoms, how are the ones who are about to have a heart attack to

know they are in serious risk from exercise?

Of course they are also unaware that they are in serious risk from

staying in bed. Or eating lunch. Or doing anything else people do

in life ................

Rodney.

>

> Correct me if *I* am wrong it's saying:

>

> Those who are at risk of sudden death (presumably during exertion)

> increase their risk of dying from exertion *during* exertion but

their

> *overall* risk of dying (from ALL exertional causes) is reduced by

> chronic exertion (exercise).

[Guest guest]

Please correct me if I am way off base here but didn't this study show

that the vast majority of deaths are due to sudden death from

pre-existing cardio pathology..

AND that deaths from all cardio pathology involving sudden death is

generally lower in those that exercise?

(even though more die @time of exertion LESS die overall??

Please correct me but this is a " plus " for advising exercise...

> >

> > Correct me if *I* am wrong it's saying:

> >

> > Those who are at risk of sudden death (presumably during exertion)

> > increase their risk of dying from exertion *during* exertion but

> their

> > *overall* risk of dying (from ALL exertional causes) is reduced by

> > chronic exertion (exercise).

[Guest guest]

Hi Chris:

Yes, it is a plus for exercise unless the exercise it is a plus for,

kills you. Then it is not a plus for exercise.

Exercise, clearly, does not fix the heart disease effects of

otherwise poor health habits. Apparently 90% of the north american

population have seriously poor health habits since, according to the

Bogalusa study, posted here a few days ago, 90% have heart disease

even in their 20s. Some a lot earlier than that.

I would argue that for those whose inadequate health habits places

them in the 90% with heart disease, it might be a good idea to be

cautious about how much exercise they take beyond the modest to

moderate amount ( would say modest, others would argue

moderate) that everyone agrees has considerable benefit.

Much better I suggest, to get your arteries cleaned out first,

before deciding to get into an aggressive exercise routine. Clearly,

some of the 90% who exercise vigorously do not die while exercising.

How is an individual supposed to determine which category s/he is

in? But even if they do not die exercising, about half the

population dies of CVD. It would be more than half, except for many

something else gets them first - probably also related to their poor

health habits.

Rodney.

> > >

> > > Correct me if *I* am wrong it's saying:

> > >

> > > Those who are at risk of sudden death (presumably during

exertion)

> > > increase their risk of dying from exertion *during* exertion

but

> > their

> > > *overall* risk of dying (from ALL exertional causes) is reduced

by

> > > chronic exertion (exercise).

[Guest guest]

Hi all,

In response to your comments, my understanding is that a few runners

are at risk for a rare condition that has not symptoms. They die

more during extreme exertion and skew the data for the majority that

do okay exerting and overall have less deaths. Overall, benefits are

positive for the population. For the few with the condition, they

have a greater risk of dying earlier when running.

Cheers, Al Pater.

> >

> > Hi All,

> >

> > Here we go again, always heart attacks for runners

> > and 5% of runners required medical attention in the

> > half marathon.

> >

> > Runner dies during Toronto Marathon

> > Last Updated Sun, 17 Oct 2004 18:21:08 EDT

> > TORONTO - A 43-year-old man died of a heart attack during the

> Toronto

> > Marathon. The man collapsed one kilometre from the finish line

> Sunday

> > morning.

> >

> >

>

http://www.cbc.ca/story/canada/national/2004/10/17/Runner_041017.html

> >

> >

> > Cheers, Alan Pater

[Guest guest]

Hi Al:

You appear to be saying then, that you believe the vast majority of

the population that has just regular heart disease - that is arteries

clogged to some degree or other with plaque deposits - is not in

danger of having a heart attack when running?

If not, then why would they expect to have a heart attack at any

other time either? We know lots of them do.

(I do not disagree with the point that there may be

unusual/infrequent heart conditions that precipitate serious problems

in runners only).

If heart attacks are caused by ruptured and detached plaque moving

downstream and blocking key arteries, why would we expect that not to

happen in the running members of the 90% with steadily accumulating

plaque?

These are not entirely rhetorical questions. (But of course they

partly are!)

Rodney.

> > >

> > > Hi All,

> > >

> > > Here we go again, always heart attacks for runners

> > > and 5% of runners required medical attention in the

> > > half marathon.

> > >

> > > Runner dies during Toronto Marathon

> > > Last Updated Sun, 17 Oct 2004 18:21:08 EDT

> > > TORONTO - A 43-year-old man died of a heart attack during the

> > Toronto

> > > Marathon. The man collapsed one kilometre from the finish line

> > Sunday

> > > morning.

> > >

> > >

> >

>

http://www.cbc.ca/story/canada/national/2004/10/17/Runner_041017.html

> > >

> > >

> > > Cheers, Alan Pater

[Guest guest]

Most of the discussion on this topic has been ASSUMING that the

runners who dropped dead had some kind of heart or cardiovascular

disease. (If not, why did they drop dead?).

However, the EXTREME exertion of competition can cause a variety of

failures that would not become apparent during NORMAL exertion. This

is true of all mechanical equipment, not just our bodies. If you run

your car at top speed you are more likely to blow a gasket, throw a

rod, overheat the engine, blow a tire, etc. A human performing at the

limits of endurance is more likely to have a stroke, heart attack,

pulled muscle, broken bone, or sprained tendon than a person sitting

in front of the TV for the same amount of time.

In the marathon where the runner died, 5% of the runners had to

receive medical treatment and many had hypothermia because of the wet,

cold weather. Under normal conditions, when have you seen 5% of the

people require medical attention during a 2 hour period? Probably

never.

Boxers suffer brain injuries from getting pounded in the head.

Football players are always limping and have hands and arms covered

with bandages from crashing against each other. Runners suffer knee

and foot injuries, and they have a high risk of heart problems due to

exertion and dehydration. Also, runners have preset goals that they

HAVE to accomplish. It is a 10K race or a 20-mile marathon. It is

not an accomplishment to run only until you are tired. You MUST finish

the race. Dehydration also contributes to heart problems for runners,

because as blood gets thicker, the heart has to pump a more viscous

fluid with which it cannot cope. This may be just another factor

sending runners to an early grave and not necessarily cardiovascular

disease.

Tony

[Guest guest]

--- In , " Rodney " <perspect1111@y...>

wrote:

>

> Hi Al:

>

> You appear to be saying then, that you believe the vast majority of

> the population that has just regular heart disease - that is

arteries

> clogged to some degree or other with plaque deposits - is not in

> danger of having a heart attack when running?

Hi All,

Yes, they are not.

>

> If not, then why would they expect to have a heart attack at any

> other time either? We know lots of them do.

They do, but this occurs irrespective of running.

>

> (I do not disagree with the point that there may be

> unusual/infrequent heart conditions that precipitate serious

problems

> in runners only).

>

> If heart attacks are caused by ruptured and detached plaque moving

> downstream and blocking key arteries, why would we expect that not

to

> happen in the running members of the 90% with steadily accumulating

> plaque?

It is a question to which I have no answer. Maybe exercise protects

from and increases heart attack risk? In the rare condition, the

balance shifts?

Cheers, Al Pater.

[Guest guest]

Agree, I've yet to find data that shows running will prevent plaque buildup.

There is a group of runners who suffer SCD from unknown cause but the % is very small. I think one of those articles said that % is less than if they were sedentary.

Regards.

----- Original Message -----

From: old542000

Sent: Tuesday, October 19, 2004 4:59 PM

Subject: [ ] Re: Runner dies during Toronto Marathon

> > Hi Al:> > > If heart attacks are caused by ruptured and detached plaque moving > downstream and blocking key arteries, why would we expect that not to > happen in the running members of the 90% with steadily accumulating > plaque?It is a question to which I have no answer. Maybe exercise protects from and increases heart attack risk? In the rare condition, the balance shifts?Cheers, Al Pater.