Re: How much exercise is euf?

[Guest guest]

I don't think running is necessary for everyone, walking surely. Nothing against running if you can do it and can devote the time, but most don't do anything. I think we've established 30 mins 3 times per week, but I do more like 3 miles (1 hr) 3 times per week. That value based on optimizing the lowering of my BP only.

I recall a fair percentage of young athletes with HTN, like 17%.

So how does one establish what exercise they need? I think exercise stress test, establish what your BP does concomitant with exercise and see how much is necessary to minimize that exercise level of BP, whether it be considered "high" or not.

Gyming raised my weight, my muscle mass and my BP.

Just my take.

Regards.

----- Original Message -----

From: freebird5005

Sent: Wednesday, October 13, 2004 1:52 PM

Subject: [ ] How much exercise is euf?

Well, first one must define just WHAT exercise are we in need of.I propose we need ALL the following. For your consideration:1) Weighted Resistance Exercise (free weight but preferably "NautilusCircuit" .. remember those !! :B )2) AEROBIC EXERCISE. Running the best?? Beats the treadmill!3) STRETCHING to minimize inevitable collagen cross-linking in muscleand connective tissue.We all agreed on these?/ good, let's continue... :B

[Guest guest]

Well, I question whether walking is of sufficient intensity to cause

the necessary adaptive response..

IOW, intensity rules the day when it comes down to adaptive responses

by biological organisms.

BUT..

I think my point may have been missed..

there are various forms of exercise that stress various organ sys so

we need all three!!

:B

> I don't think running is necessary for everyone, walking surely.

Nothing against running if you can do it and can devote the time, but

most don't do anything. I think we've established 30 mins 3 times per

week, but I do more like 3 miles (1 hr) 3 times per week. That value

based on optimizing the lowering of my BP only.

> I recall a fair percentage of young athletes with HTN, like 17%.

>

> So how does one establish what exercise they need? I think exercise

stress test, establish what your BP does concomitant with exercise and

see how much is necessary to minimize that exercise level of BP,

whether it be considered " high " or not.

>

> Gyming raised my weight, my muscle mass and my BP.

> Just my take.

>

> Regards.

>

> ----- Original Message -----

> From: freebird5005

>

> Sent: Wednesday, October 13, 2004 1:52 PM

> Subject: [ ] How much exercise is euf?

>

>

>

> Well, first one must define just WHAT exercise are we in need of.

>

> I propose we need ALL the following. For your consideration:

>

> 1) Weighted Resistance Exercise (free weight but preferably " Nautilus

> Circuit " .. remember those !! :B )

>

> 2) AEROBIC EXERCISE. Running the best?? Beats the treadmill!

>

> 3) STRETCHING to minimize inevitable collagen cross-linking in muscle

> and connective tissue.

>

> We all agreed on these?/ good, let's continue... :B

[Guest guest]

What is " Gyming " ??

> I don't think running is necessary for everyone, walking surely.

Nothing against running if you can do it and can devote the time, but

most don't do anything. I think we've established 30 mins 3 times per

week, but I do more like 3 miles (1 hr) 3 times per week. That value

based on optimizing the lowering of my BP only.

> I recall a fair percentage of young athletes with HTN, like 17%.

>

> So how does one establish what exercise they need? I think exercise

stress test, establish what your BP does concomitant with exercise and

see how much is necessary to minimize that exercise level of BP,

whether it be considered " high " or not.

>

> Gyming raised my weight, my muscle mass and my BP.

> Just my take.

>

> Regards.

>

> ----- Original Message -----

> From: freebird5005

>

> Sent: Wednesday, October 13, 2004 1:52 PM

> Subject: [ ] How much exercise is euf?

>

>

>

> Well, first one must define just WHAT exercise are we in need of.

>

> I propose we need ALL the following. For your consideration:

>

> 1) Weighted Resistance Exercise (free weight but preferably " Nautilus

> Circuit " .. remember those !! :B )

>

> 2) AEROBIC EXERCISE. Running the best?? Beats the treadmill!

>

> 3) STRETCHING to minimize inevitable collagen cross-linking in muscle

> and connective tissue.

>

> We all agreed on these?/ good, let's continue... :B

[Guest guest]

I thought most fitness experts prefer free weights to machines.....

Exercises enhancing agility and balance are also preferable/necessary.

On Wed, 13 Oct 2004 19:20:47 -0000, freebird5005 <freebird5005@...> wrote:

>

>

> Well, I question whether walking is of sufficient intensity to cause

> the necessary adaptive response..

>

> IOW, intensity rules the day when it comes down to adaptive responses

> by biological organisms.

>

> BUT..

>

> I think my point may have been missed..

>

> there are various forms of exercise that stress various organ sys so

> we need all three!!

>

> :B

>

>

>

>

>

> > I don't think running is necessary for everyone, walking surely.

> Nothing against running if you can do it and can devote the time, but

> most don't do anything. I think we've established 30 mins 3 times per

> week, but I do more like 3 miles (1 hr) 3 times per week. That value

> based on optimizing the lowering of my BP only.

> > I recall a fair percentage of young athletes with HTN, like 17%.

> >

> > So how does one establish what exercise they need? I think exercise

> stress test, establish what your BP does concomitant with exercise and

> see how much is necessary to minimize that exercise level of BP,

> whether it be considered " high " or not.

> >

> > Gyming raised my weight, my muscle mass and my BP.

> > Just my take.

> >

> > Regards.

> >

> > ----- Original Message -----

> > From: freebird5005

> >

> > Sent: Wednesday, October 13, 2004 1:52 PM

> > Subject: [ ] How much exercise is euf?

> >

> >

> >

> > Well, first one must define just WHAT exercise are we in need of.

> >

> > I propose we need ALL the following. For your consideration:

> >

> > 1) Weighted Resistance Exercise (free weight but preferably " Nautilus

> > Circuit " .. remember those !! :B )

> >

> > 2) AEROBIC EXERCISE. Running the best?? Beats the treadmill!

> >

> > 3) STRETCHING to minimize inevitable collagen cross-linking in muscle

> > and connective tissue.

> >

> > We all agreed on these?/ good, let's continue... :B

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

"gyming" is using gym equipment to exercise muscles, in my case, weight machines at low level and building up strength but not necessarily maximizing muscle size. Also, treadmill, bike, stairclimber, and resistance using rubber cords.

The machines are necessary to provide a low level of exercise for weak muscles.

But as I looked at each one, I devised an exercise I could do without the machine, like pushups, situps, neck lean, using the bodies weight. Also, "dynamic tension" - pitting one muscle against another.

I looked at yoga and I can't get my foot behind my head(ha), so I had to modify some of that. I do a stork (?) which is up on toes, bend the knees forward and hold that for 2-3 mins. That I find useful as a routine.

After 4.5 months I quit the gym and started using my own creations. Getting exercise into a daily activity. One is to walk up real stairs, walk up real hill's, dig a real garden. The muscles developed in a gym are not all we(I) need. I climb a ladder often just to exercise those muscles.

One thing that plagued me for years is my big toes. I have stressed those guys, every day for weeks now. I'm tired of them hurting. I walk around on my toes several times per day. I started sprinting a little. And then I pack them in ice. They are actually coming down ion size.

So my exercise is directed mostly at problems and getting as much as possible in my daily routine.

Regards.

----- Original Message -----

From: freebird5005

Sent: Wednesday, October 13, 2004 2:21 PM

Subject: [ ] Re: How much exercise is euf?

What is "Gyming"??> I don't think running is necessary for everyone, walking surely.Nothing against running if you can do it and can devote the time, butmost don't do anything. I think we've established 30 mins 3 times perweek, but I do more like 3 miles (1 hr) 3 times per week. That valuebased on optimizing the lowering of my BP only. > I recall a fair percentage of young athletes with HTN, like 17%.> > So how does one establish what exercise they need? I think exercisestress test, establish what your BP does concomitant with exercise andsee how much is necessary to minimize that exercise level of BP,whether it be considered "high" or not. > > Gyming raised my weight, my muscle mass and my BP. > Just my take.> > Regards.

[Guest guest]

Good points but FWIW the majority on CRAN enjoy lower than average BP so that may not be an appropriate focus for most.

Exercise is just a physical form of supplementation for modern beings who don't do enough daily work thanks to modern labor saving advances. Appropriate exercise is probably also best metered to the individuals' needs. As with most things benefit from exercise is a "U" or Goldilocks curve where too little or too much is bad. What is just right is probably not a precise point on the curve but a nice wide sweet spot .

Some of us may need to worry about getting too much, more probably need to worry about getting too little. I doubt there is any definitive guidance for precisely how much, but widespread agreement that some amount is good. I am a strong advocate for exercise/activity and personally believe it enhances my QOL. YMMV.

JR

-----Original Message-----From: jwwright [mailto:jwwright@...]Sent: Wednesday, October 13, 2004 2:14 PM Subject: Re: [ ] How much exercise is euf?

I don't think running is necessary for everyone, walking surely. Nothing against running if you can do it and can devote the time, but most don't do anything. I think we've established 30 mins 3 times per week, but I do more like 3 miles (1 hr) 3 times per week. That value based on optimizing the lowering of my BP only.

I recall a fair percentage of young athletes with HTN, like 17%.

So how does one establish what exercise they need? I think exercise stress test, establish what your BP does concomitant with exercise and see how much is necessary to minimize that exercise level of BP, whether it be considered "high" or not.

Gyming raised my weight, my muscle mass and my BP.

Just my take.

Regards.

----- Original Message -----

From: freebird5005

Sent: Wednesday, October 13, 2004 1:52 PM

Subject: [ ] How much exercise is euf?

Well, first one must define just WHAT exercise are we in need of.I propose we need ALL the following. For your consideration:1) Weighted Resistance Exercise (free weight but preferably "NautilusCircuit" .. remember those !! :B )2) AEROBIC EXERCISE. Running the best?? Beats the treadmill!3) STRETCHING to minimize inevitable collagen cross-linking in muscleand connective tissue.We all agreed on these?/ good, let's continue... :B

[Guest guest]

I know you having said this you cannot recall a true NAUTILUS CIRCUIT! :B

In it's heyday (70's) Nautilus training actually meant you had to work

hard. viciously HARD! heh..

On each & every machine we would go to complete momentary failure then

RUN.. RUN to next unit until we completed 12 to 15 total resistance

exrcises (8 to 10 machines).. would take about 20 minutes.. then we

would collapse on floor breathing like freight trains for anothe 30

minutes unable to rise or lift a single finger.. :B

(by " We " I refer to a training parther & Me.. lol he used to say " if

we lived thru it the SET! wasn't hard enuf !! " ROFL!!

> I thought most fitness experts prefer free weights to machines.....

>

> Exercises enhancing agility and balance are also preferable/necessary.

>

>

> On Wed, 13 Oct 2004 19:20:47 -0000, freebird5005 <freebird5005@y...>

wrote:

> >

> >

> > Well, I question whether walking is of sufficient intensity to cause

> > the necessary adaptive response..

> >

> > IOW, intensity rules the day when it comes down to adaptive responses

> > by biological organisms.

> >

> > BUT..

> >

> > I think my point may have been missed..

> >

> > there are various forms of exercise that stress various organ sys so

> > we need all three!!

> >

> > :B

> >

> >

> >

> >

> > --- In , " jwwright " <jwwright@e...>

wrote:

> > > I don't think running is necessary for everyone, walking surely.

> > Nothing against running if you can do it and can devote the time, but

> > most don't do anything. I think we've established 30 mins 3 times per

> > week, but I do more like 3 miles (1 hr) 3 times per week. That value

> > based on optimizing the lowering of my BP only.

> > > I recall a fair percentage of young athletes with HTN, like 17%.

> > >

> > > So how does one establish what exercise they need? I think exercise

> > stress test, establish what your BP does concomitant with exercise and

> > see how much is necessary to minimize that exercise level of BP,

> > whether it be considered " high " or not.

> > >

> > > Gyming raised my weight, my muscle mass and my BP.

> > > Just my take.

> > >

> > > Regards.

> > >

> > > ----- Original Message -----

> > > From: freebird5005

> > >

> > > Sent: Wednesday, October 13, 2004 1:52 PM

> > > Subject: [ ] How much exercise is euf?

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > > Well, first one must define just WHAT exercise are we in need of.

> > >

> > > I propose we need ALL the following. For your consideration:

> > >

> > > 1) Weighted Resistance Exercise (free weight but preferably

" Nautilus

> > > Circuit " .. remember those !! :B )

> > >

> > > 2) AEROBIC EXERCISE. Running the best?? Beats the treadmill!

> > >

> > > 3) STRETCHING to minimize inevitable collagen cross-linking in

muscle

> > > and connective tissue.

> > >

> > > We all agreed on these?/ good, let's continue... :B

> >

> >

> >

[Guest guest]

I'm not sure I want to play the " my exercise program is better than yours "

game, but there are a few distinctions and considerations worth mentioning.

Circuit training while intended to incorporate aerobic into what a primarily

anaerobic exercise is only partially successful. Since many who pursue

aerobic exercise prefer to stimulate a fat rather than sugar energy pathway,

this is better accomplished by modest intensity over longer periods. Circuit

training at best is burning fat for the last few minutes if at all. I am not

arguing against circuit training only pointing out it is not as complete as

some argue.

Regarding another post that free weights are superior to machines. This may

be true, but for many who exercise without benefit of training partners or

spotters (like me), the safety of working on a machine has merit, IMO.

The bottom line is any exercise that you enjoy doing is the right exercise

for you. Life is too short to do stuff we don't want to do.

JR

-----Original Message-----

From: freebird5005 [mailto:freebird5005@...]

Sent: Wednesday, October 13, 2004 2:53 PM

Subject: [ ] Re: How much exercise is euf?

I know you having said this you cannot recall a true NAUTILUS CIRCUIT! :B

In it's heyday (70's) Nautilus training actually meant you had to work

hard. viciously HARD! heh..

On each & every machine we would go to complete momentary failure then

RUN.. RUN to next unit until we completed 12 to 15 total resistance

exrcises (8 to 10 machines).. would take about 20 minutes.. then we

would collapse on floor breathing like freight trains for anothe 30

minutes unable to rise or lift a single finger.. :B

(by " We " I refer to a training parther & Me.. lol he used to say " if

we lived thru it the SET! wasn't hard enuf !! " ROFL!!

> I thought most fitness experts prefer free weights to machines.....

>

> Exercises enhancing agility and balance are also preferable/necessary.

>

>

> On Wed, 13 Oct 2004 19:20:47 -0000, freebird5005 <freebird5005@y...>

wrote:

[Guest guest]

With all due respect LMAO!

Yours is a typical text book commentary on that which it does not know :B

No offense but till you've done it " right " you don't have a conception

of what exercise IS..

Of what it can do...

Of what it can accomplish...

have a nice day rofl :B

[Guest guest]

Glad I could entertain and help you trim your glutes at the same time :-).

My understanding is that our bodies don't shift to fat metabolism until

15-20 minutes into a workout. AFAIK more intense exercise works against that

transition not favors it.

You are correct I am not a " circuit trainer " so I googled circuit training &

burning fat.... the first four links that came up all suggested some, up to

15 minutes of warm-up aerobic exercise (pix on a treadmill) " before "

beginning the circuits. Well I guess if you add 15 minutes of moderate,

clearly aerobic work immediately before resistance training you will be

primed to enter fat metabolism.

If this is what you consider doing circuit training " right " , I stand

corrected. However it sounds more like a combination or hybrid exercise than

a variation on resistance training. So thank you for helping me learn

something new, I previously though circuit training just involved weight

lifting on an aggressive time scale.

JR

PS: Since I run and lift on alternate days I don't believe I'll start

circuit training just now, but never say never.

-----Original Message-----

From: freebird5005 [mailto:freebird5005@...]

Sent: Wednesday, October 13, 2004 3:28 PM

Subject: [ ] Re: How much exercise is euf?

With all due respect LMAO!

Yours is a typical text book commentary on that which it does not know :B

No offense but till you've done it " right " you don't have a conception

of what exercise IS..

Of what it can do...

Of what it can accomplish...

have a nice day rofl :B

--- In , " " <crjohnr@b...>

wrote:

> I'm not sure I want to play the " my exercise program is better than

yours "

> game, but there are a few distinctions and considerations worth

mentioning.

>

> Circuit training while intended to incorporate aerobic into what a

primarily

> anaerobic exercise is only partially successful. Since many who pursue

> aerobic exercise prefer to stimulate a fat rather than sugar energy

pathway,

> this is better accomplished by modest intensity over longer periods.

Circuit

> training at best is burning fat for the last few minutes if at all.

I am not

> arguing against circuit training only pointing out it is not as

complete as

> some argue.

>

> Regarding another post that free weights are superior to machines.

This may

> be true, but for many who exercise without benefit of training

partners or

> spotters (like me), the safety of working on a machine has merit, IMO.

>

> The bottom line is any exercise that you enjoy doing is the right

exercise

> for you. Life is too short to do stuff we don't want to do.

>

> JR

>

>

[Guest guest]

You don't understand..

there is no EXTRA energy for 15 mins of anything before a NAUTILUS

CIRCUIT " ..

ALL your energy is conserved and expended on the CIRCUIT!

20 mins .. you're down on the ground gasping for air..

talk about an adaptive response!!

> > I'm not sure I want to play the " my exercise program is better than

> yours "

> > game, but there are a few distinctions and considerations worth

> mentioning.

> >

> > Circuit training while intended to incorporate aerobic into what a

> primarily

> > anaerobic exercise is only partially successful. Since many who pursue

> > aerobic exercise prefer to stimulate a fat rather than sugar energy

> pathway,

> > this is better accomplished by modest intensity over longer periods.

> Circuit

> > training at best is burning fat for the last few minutes if at all.

> I am not

> > arguing against circuit training only pointing out it is not as

> complete as

> > some argue.

> >

> > Regarding another post that free weights are superior to machines.

> This may

> > be true, but for many who exercise without benefit of training

> partners or

> > spotters (like me), the safety of working on a machine has merit, IMO.

> >

> > The bottom line is any exercise that you enjoy doing is the right

> exercise

> > for you. Life is too short to do stuff we don't want to do.

> >

> > JR

> >

> >

[Guest guest]

You win. I just went back and read your original post.

I was arguing that circuit training was not a satisfactory replacement for

aerobic workouts based on my recollections of sundry apparently erroneous

descriptions that suggest that.

You did not suggest that so I apologize. You were offering that Nautilus

Circuit is your preferred form of resistance training. You are entitled to

that opinion. It will certainly lead to deep depletion of muscular glycogen

and may increase muscular glycogen capacity more/faster than conventional

resistance training.

For now I think I'll confine my resistance training to 2x a week volume and

1x a week strength workouts. I will assume or hope you were exaggerating

about not being able to rise from the floor for 30 minutes after each

workout. That seems like it would eat into the time savings offered as

another benefit of circuit training :-).

JR

PS: My apologies to the list for wasting bandwidth on this dialog...

-----Original Message-----

From: freebird5005 [mailto:freebird5005@...]

Sent: Wednesday, October 13, 2004 4:30 PM

Subject: [ ] Re: How much exercise is euf?

You don't understand..

there is no EXTRA energy for 15 mins of anything before a NAUTILUS

CIRCUIT " ..

ALL your energy is conserved and expended on the CIRCUIT!

20 mins .. you're down on the ground gasping for air..

talk about an adaptive response!!

--- In , " " <crjohnr@b...>

wrote:

> Glad I could entertain and help you trim your glutes at the same

time :-).

>

> My understanding is that our bodies don't shift to fat metabolism until

> 15-20 minutes into a workout. AFAIK more intense exercise works

against that

> transition not favors it.

>

> You are correct I am not a " circuit trainer " so I googled circuit

training &

> burning fat.... the first four links that came up all suggested

some, up to

> 15 minutes of warm-up aerobic exercise (pix on a treadmill) " before "

> beginning the circuits. Well I guess if you add 15 minutes of moderate,

> clearly aerobic work immediately before resistance training you will be

> primed to enter fat metabolism.

>

> If this is what you consider doing circuit training " right " , I stand

> corrected. However it sounds more like a combination or hybrid

exercise than

> a variation on resistance training. So thank you for helping me learn

> something new, I previously though circuit training just involved weight

> lifting on an aggressive time scale.

>

> JR

>

> PS: Since I run and lift on alternate days I don't believe I'll start

> circuit training just now, but never say never.

>

> -----Original Message-----

> From: freebird5005 [mailto:freebird5005@y...]

> Sent: Wednesday, October 13, 2004 3:28 PM

>

> Subject: [ ] Re: How much exercise is euf?

>

>

>

>

> With all due respect LMAO!

>

> Yours is a typical text book commentary on that which it does not

know :B

>

> No offense but till you've done it " right " you don't have a conception

> of what exercise IS..

>

> Of what it can do...

>

> Of what it can accomplish...

>

> have a nice day rofl :B

>

[Guest guest]

Hi ,

No argument on exercise.

I'm saying that knowing what your exercise BP rises to during exercise, is important for all. You don't have to be Hypertensive to have higher than average BP. Comparing to a nonhypertensive the pressure will rise significantly more. If they adopt CR at an early age they may delay the time they reach 140/90, and they may avoid it altogether. No one knows that yet.

Of course, CRers will have lower BP as they lose weight, but their exercise BP rise will still be of note. I've not seen that data. The factor that causes essential HTN does not go away. I think it will always rise with age.

BTW, I've just been reading a Pritikin book, Diet for Runners, and I don't want to sound like I'm pushing pritikin's program, but there is some good data on runners who have had heart attacks and the (his) reason for it. Fixx was not the only one. Worth the 3$ I paid for it.

I submit the one statement, pg 73: "Cholesterol cannot be cleaned out by running. Cholesterol cannot be used for fuel." That's his statement and I've yet to find a confirming source for it. Comments?

Regards.

----- Original Message -----

From:

Sent: Wednesday, October 13, 2004 2:50 PM

Subject: RE: [ ] How much exercise is euf?

Good points but FWIW the majority on CRAN enjoy lower than average BP so that may not be an appropriate focus for most.

Exercise is just a physical form of supplementation for modern beings who don't do enough daily work thanks to modern labor saving advances. Appropriate exercise is probably also best metered to the individuals' needs. As with most things benefit from exercise is a "U" or Goldilocks curve where too little or too much is bad. What is just right is probably not a precise point on the curve but a nice wide sweet spot .

Some of us may need to worry about getting too much, more probably need to worry about getting too little. I doubt there is any definitive guidance for precisely how much, but widespread agreement that some amount is good. I am a strong advocate for exercise/activity and personally believe it enhances my QOL. YMMV.

JR

-----Original Message-----From: jwwright [mailto:jwwright@...]Sent: Wednesday, October 13, 2004 2:14 PM Subject: Re: [ ] How much exercise is euf?

I don't think running is necessary for everyone, walking surely. Nothing against running if you can do it and can devote the time, but most don't do anything. I think we've established 30 mins 3 times per week, but I do more like 3 miles (1 hr) 3 times per week. That value based on optimizing the lowering of my BP only.

I recall a fair percentage of young athletes with HTN, like 17%.

So how does one establish what exercise they need? I think exercise stress test, establish what your BP does concomitant with exercise and see how much is necessary to minimize that exercise level of BP, whether it be considered "high" or not.

Gyming raised my weight, my muscle mass and my BP.

Just my take.

Regards.

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 10/13/04 5:09:35 PM Eastern Daylight Time, crjohnr@... writes:

My understanding is that our bodies don't shift to fat metabolism until

15-20 minutes into a workout.

what do you suppose the mechanism is for that? Though, at first blush, it would seem to indicate we'd never be burning fat for fuel while sedentary.

--

Ken

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 10/14/04 1:40:21 PM Eastern Daylight Time, crjohnr@... writes:

Glycogen of which significant amounts are stored directly in muscles can be called upon for immediate energy with limited oxygen (to escape from the saber tooth), longer term less intense efforts, like carrying the dead saber tooth back to camp transition to the more efficient fat metabolism relying upon blood circulation to provide adequate oxygen.

thanks, but allow me to clarify my question: what mechanism is involved in the 15-20 minute delay before the body shifts over to burning fat during aerobic exercise? Is ther some expense involved in gearing up hormones to start using fat? This might lead to the possibility of consuming something beforehand to start using fat sooner.

--

Ken

[Guest guest]

From what I have read, the body first burns stored glycogen, which is

a form of starch, and when it is exhausted, it begins to burn fat.

You will only burn fat while sedentary during a prolonged fast.

Tony

=======

From: bpinfo@a...

Date: Thu Oct 14, 2004 12:59 pm

Subject: Re: [ ] Re: How much exercise is euf?

In a message dated 10/13/04 5:09:35 PM Eastern Daylight Time,

crjohnr@... writes:

> My understanding is that our bodies don't shift to fat metabolism

until 15-20 minutes into a workout.

what do you suppose the mechanism is for that? Though, at first blush,

it would seem to indicate we'd never be burning fat for fuel while

sedentary.

Ken

[Guest guest]

Since our body still requires substantial energy even while sedentary what we burn to satisfy that need will depend pretty much what we consume.

Fat appears to be primarily long term energy storage while glycogen (sugar) is the bodies normal energy source. However due to the lower energy density of carbohydrates our body only stores a few thousand KCal of glycogen as compared to pounds and pounds of adipose (fat).

Glycogen of which significant amounts are stored directly in muscles can be called upon for immediate energy with limited oxygen (to escape from the saber tooth), longer term less intense efforts, like carrying the dead saber tooth back to camp transition to the more efficient fat metabolism relying upon blood circulation to provide adequate oxygen.

AFAIK even at rest we run predominantly on a sugar metabolism. The Atkins diet by restricting carb intake artificially forces a variation on fat metabolism where fat is converted to ketone bodies, a sugar equivalent. Dietary energy restriction will no doubt trigger the ketosis pathway if carb intake doesn't meet sugar needs. Some folks have difficulty with the ketosis transition and usually don't tolerate fasting very well.

JR

-----Original Message-----From: bpinfo@... [mailto:bpinfo@...]Sent: Thursday, October 14, 2004 12:00 PM Subject: Re: [ ] Re: How much exercise is euf?In a message dated 10/13/04 5:09:35 PM Eastern Daylight Time, crjohnr@... writes:

My understanding is that our bodies don't shift to fat metabolism until15-20 minutes into a workout.what do you suppose the mechanism is for that? Though, at first blush, it would seem to indicate we'd never be burning fat for fuel while sedentary.-- Ken

[Guest guest]

>>>From what I have read, the body first burns stored glycogen, which is

a form of starch, and when it is exhausted, it begins to burn fat. You

will only burn fat while sedentary during a prolonged fast.

Under " normal " situations, we are always burning a mixture of fat and

carbohydrate, somewhere around 40/60 to 50/50. We also burn a small

amount of protein, but that usually is a small percentage and it doesn't

change much. What can change is the percent of energy we burn from fat

or carb.

As intensity increase, we burn a higher percent carb because the pathway

for burner fat is a " slower " process as it involves more steps. Its

rare that it would be 100% carb because it would have to be an

extrememly high intensity, which most people cant maintain as the by

product lactate builds up in the muscles causing discomfort. Also, at

the highest intensity we switch to P-Cr for about 10-20 seconds as we

cant even burn glucose that fast.

When you stop ingesting dietary sources of carbohydrate, it takes about

48-72 hours to deplete our glycogen stores. When we do, we will switch

to burning pure fat, though some of it will be converted to ketones to

be burned as the brain can utilize ketones but not fat.

Some studies will measure RQ as it is a measure of the fuel mix being

burned as Carb and Fat release differing amounts of CO2.

From the standard graduate textbook on Exercise Phsyiology by Mcardle

Katch and Katch.

" During activities that range from complete bed rest to mild aerobic

exercise such as walking or mild jogging, the RQ seldom reflects the

oxidation of pure carb or pure fat. Instead a mixture of these

nutrients is usually used, and the RQ is intermediate in value between

..7 (pure fat) and 1.0 (pure carb). For most purposes an RQ Of .82 from

the metabolism of a mixture of 40$ carb and 60% fat can be assumed... "

I don't know if anyone has ever done a Exercise Tolerance Test or Stress

Test to completion, but I have had the displeasure of attempting it on

several occasions, and hitting the RQ Of 1.0 is a heck of a feat. Most

people quit somewhere in the .90-.95 range.

As our reserves of carb is limited to the storage capacity of our

muscles and liver, and the reseves of fat could almost be unlimited,

there is a " shift " during longterm exercise, to conserve carb and burn

more fat. This is where the notion that we don't burn fat till after

one hour comes from, though it is inaccurate. Also, well trained

athletes seem to be more efficient at burning fat, so this can also

alter the ratio slightly.

[Guest guest]

I'm speculating but perhaps local cell chemistry due to the exergy expenditure generates signals (lactic acid, etc). Amount and duration of these messages trigger capillaries to dialate for increased local bloodflow. Increased CO2 in blood will increase respiration and heart rate, etc...

In other words I don't know...but I can BS with the best :-)

JR

-----Original Message-----From: bpinfo@... [mailto:bpinfo@...]Sent: Thursday, October 14, 2004 1:14 PM Subject: Re: [ ] Re: How much exercise is euf?In a message dated 10/14/04 1:40:21 PM Eastern Daylight Time, crjohnr@... writes:

Glycogen of which significant amounts are stored directly in muscles can be called upon for immediate energy with limited oxygen (to escape from the saber tooth), longer term less intense efforts, like carrying the dead saber tooth back to camp transition to the more efficient fat metabolism relying upon blood circulation to provide adequate oxygen.thanks, but allow me to clarify my question: what mechanism is involved in the 15-20 minute delay before the body shifts over to burning fat during aerobic exercise? Is ther some expense involved in gearing up hormones to start using fat? This might lead to the possibility of consuming something beforehand to start using fat sooner.-- Ken

[Guest guest]

Hi Jeff! I like to workout hard 80-90% VO2 levels often with

sprinting, hard 3 mile runs, H.I.T. (High Intensity Training) weight

resistance training to temporary muscular failure etc. However after

reading posts here and doing a little beginning research I am a bit

concerned..

Jeff would you help clarify smthg for me: What is the " shear-induced

platelet activation " they speak of in the following research articles?

Why is it active in only strenuous cardio exercise? What is " platelet

activation " a consequence of? What is consequence of increased

" rolling PMN's " in only strenuous exercise and what function do they

perform?

Appreciate any light you can shed on this for me. TIA!

Articles for consideration below:

------------------------------------------------------------

1) Moderate-intensity exercise suppresses platelet activation and

polymorphonuclear leukocyte interaction with surface-adherent

platelets under shear flow in men.

Wang JS, Liao CH.

Graduate Institute of Rehabilitation Science and Center for

Gerontological Research, Chang Gung University, 259 Wen-Hwa 1st Road,

Kwei-Shan, Tao-Yuan, 333, Taiwan. s5492@...

The reciprocal modulation of platelet and polymorphonuclear leukocyte

(PMN) activities is important in the pathogenesis of thrombosis and

inflammation. This study investigated how moderate exercise affects

shear-induced platelet activation and subsequent PMNs interaction with

platelet-related thrombi under shear flow. Sixteen sedentary healthy

men engaged in moderate exercise (about 60% VO(2max)) on a bicycle

ergometer. Platelet activation, PMNs interaction with surface-adherent

platelets, and PMN-dependent inhibition of platelet activation under

shear flow were measured both before and immediately after exercise.

The results of this study can be summarized as follows: (1) moderate

exercise was associated with lower extents of shear-induced platelet

adhesion and aggregation, binding of von Willbrand factor (vWF) to

platelets, and glyco-protein IIb/IIIa activation and P-selectin

expression on platelet than at rest; (2) the velocity and percentage

of rolling PMNs increased while the number of PMNs remaining bound to

surface-adherent platelets decreased after moderate exercise; (3)

although treating the PMNs with oxidized-low density lipoprotein

(Ox-LDL) enhanced PMNs interaction with surface-adherent platelets,

moderate exercise suppressed the enhancement of platelet-PMN

interaction by Ox-LDL; (4) moderate exercise decreased platelet [Ca

(2+)](i) elevation induced by ADP and platelet [Ca(2+)](i) levels

mediated by PMN and Ox-LDL-treated PMN; and (5) plasma and PMN-derived

nitric oxide metabolites and plasma vWF antigen and activity increased

after moderate exercise, whereas plasma and platelet-derived soluble

P-selectin levels remained unchanged in response to exercise.

Therefore, we conclude that moderate-intensity exercise suppresses

shear-induced platelet activation and subsequent PMNs adhesion to

platelets deposited at sites of vascular injury under flow, thereby

reducing the risks of vascular thrombosis and inflammation.

2) Strenuous, acute exercise affects reciprocal modulation of platelet

and polymorphonuclear leukocyte activities under shear flow in men.

Wang JS, Chow SE, Chen JK.

Graduate Institute of Rehabilitation Science and Graduate Institute of

Basic Medical Science, Chang Gung University, Taoyuan, Taiwan.

s5492@...

Vigorous exercise transiently increases the risk of primary cardiac

arrest. The reciprocal modulation of platelet and polymorphonuclear

leukocyte (PMN) activities is important in the pathogenesis of

thrombosis. This study investigates how strenuous, acute exercise

affects platelet-PMN reciprocal modulation by closely examining 18

sedentary men who exercised strenuously on a bicycle ergometer.

Shear-induced platelet activation, PMN interaction with

surface-adherent platelets under shear flow, and PMN-dependent

inhibition of platelet activation were measured both before and

immediately after exercise. Analytical results can be summarized as

follows: (i) shear-induced platelet adhesion on fibronectin-coated

surface as well as ADP-induced release of platelet soluble P-selectin

release and elevation of [Ca2+]i significantly increases after

strenuous exercise; (ii) strenuous exercise is associated with higher

velocity and percentage of rolling PMNs and lower numbers of PMNs

remaining bound to surface-adherent platelets under shear flow than at

rest; (iii) PMN-dependent inhibition of platelet [Ca2+]i elevation and

soluble P-selectin release after strenuous exercise is much greater

than that at rest; and (iv) strenuous exercise increases PMN-derived

nitric oxide metabolite level and reduces oxidized low-density

lipoprotein-promoted interaction between platelets and PMNs.

Therefore, we conclude that platelet activity may be sensitized by

strenuous exercise. However, strenuous exercise can also

simultaneously enhance the antiplatelet effect of PMNs. The finding

provides a new insight into the negative feedback of PMNs against

exercise-evoked platelet-related thrombotic risk.

---------------------------------------------------------------------

> >>>From what I have read, the body first burns stored glycogen, which is

> a form of starch, and when it is exhausted, it begins to burn fat. You

> will only burn fat while sedentary during a prolonged fast.

>

> Under " normal " situations, we are always burning a mixture of fat and

> carbohydrate, somewhere around 40/60 to 50/50. We also burn a small

> amount of protein, but that usually is a small percentage and it doesn't

> change much. What can change is the percent of energy we burn from fat

> or carb.

>

> As intensity increase, we burn a higher percent carb because the pathway

> for burner fat is a " slower " process as it involves more steps. Its

> rare that it would be 100% carb because it would have to be an

> extrememly high intensity, which most people cant maintain as the by

> product lactate builds up in the muscles causing discomfort. Also, at

> the highest intensity we switch to P-Cr for about 10-20 seconds as we

> cant even burn glucose that fast.

>

> When you stop ingesting dietary sources of carbohydrate, it takes about

> 48-72 hours to deplete our glycogen stores. When we do, we will switch

> to burning pure fat, though some of it will be converted to ketones to

> be burned as the brain can utilize ketones but not fat.

>

> Some studies will measure RQ as it is a measure of the fuel mix being

> burned as Carb and Fat release differing amounts of CO2.

>

> From the standard graduate textbook on Exercise Phsyiology by Mcardle

> Katch and Katch.

>

> " During activities that range from complete bed rest to mild aerobic

> exercise such as walking or mild jogging, the RQ seldom reflects the

> oxidation of pure carb or pure fat. Instead a mixture of these

> nutrients is usually used, and the RQ is intermediate in value between

> .7 (pure fat) and 1.0 (pure carb). For most purposes an RQ Of .82 from

> the metabolism of a mixture of 40$ carb and 60% fat can be assumed... "

>

> I don't know if anyone has ever done a Exercise Tolerance Test or Stress

> Test to completion, but I have had the displeasure of attempting it on

> several occasions, and hitting the RQ Of 1.0 is a heck of a feat. Most

> people quit somewhere in the .90-.95 range.

>

> As our reserves of carb is limited to the storage capacity of our

> muscles and liver, and the reseves of fat could almost be unlimited,

> there is a " shift " during longterm exercise, to conserve carb and burn

> more fat. This is where the notion that we don't burn fat till after

> one hour comes from, though it is inaccurate. Also, well trained

> athletes seem to be more efficient at burning fat, so this can also

> alter the ratio slightly.

[Guest guest]

I'll comment because this is an important point. The fact the body uses both fat and glucose in combination for energy. It's discussed in one of Covert 's books but no precise numbers.

The number I use in my calcs is 200 glucose to 100 fat and I cannot remember where I got that ratio (several years ago). I've always wondered what the exact number might be.

I do know that I can estimate the weight loss from day to day using 2:1 and the fact that 100 glucose will release 4.6 oz of water. So that gives me an estimate of the total weight loss - fat, carbo and water. So a 300 kcal exercise works out to be 0.76 #, if not refed.

It seems to hold true whether I walk 3 miles on the treddy (300 kcals) or do 3 hours routine outdoor work (I've learned to relate 1 hour routine work to 100 kcals.)

Not to dispute Mcardle, but a low fat diet may alter the ratios? What would be 0.33 to 1, maybe in Mcardle terms.

Just wondering.

Regards.

----- Original Message -----

From: Jeff Novick

Sent: Thursday, October 14, 2004 1:19 PM

Subject: RE: [ ] Re: How much exercise is euf?

>>>From what I have read, the body first burns stored glycogen, which isa form of starch, and when it is exhausted, it begins to burn fat. Youwill only burn fat while sedentary during a prolonged fast.Under "normal" situations, we are always burning a mixture of fat andcarbohydrate, somewhere around 40/60 to 50/50. We also burn a smallamount of protein, but that usually is a small percentage and it doesn'tchange much. What can change is the percent of energy we burn from fator carb.As intensity increase, we burn a higher percent carb because the pathwayfor burner fat is a "slower" process as it involves more steps. Itsrare that it would be 100% carb because it would have to be anextrememly high intensity, which most people cant maintain as the byproduct lactate builds up in the muscles causing discomfort. Also, atthe highest intensity we switch to P-Cr for about 10-20 seconds as wecant even burn glucose that fast. When you stop ingesting dietary sources of carbohydrate, it takes about48-72 hours to deplete our glycogen stores. When we do, we will switchto burning pure fat, though some of it will be converted to ketones tobe burned as the brain can utilize ketones but not fat. Some studies will measure RQ as it is a measure of the fuel mix beingburned as Carb and Fat release differing amounts of CO2. From the standard graduate textbook on Exercise Phsyiology by McardleKatch and Katch."During activities that range from complete bed rest to mild aerobicexercise such as walking or mild jogging, the RQ seldom reflects theoxidation of pure carb or pure fat. Instead a mixture of thesenutrients is usually used, and the RQ is intermediate in value between.7 (pure fat) and 1.0 (pure carb). For most purposes an RQ Of .82 fromthe metabolism of a mixture of 40$ carb and 60% fat can be assumed..."I don't know if anyone has ever done a Exercise Tolerance Test or StressTest to completion, but I have had the displeasure of attempting it onseveral occasions, and hitting the RQ Of 1.0 is a heck of a feat. Mostpeople quit somewhere in the .90-.95 range.As our reserves of carb is limited to the storage capacity of ourmuscles and liver, and the reseves of fat could almost be unlimited,there is a "shift" during longterm exercise, to conserve carb and burnmore fat. This is where the notion that we don't burn fat till afterone hour comes from, though it is inaccurate. Also, well trainedathletes seem to be more efficient at burning fat, so this can alsoalter the ratio slightly.

[Guest guest]

I am not a big fan of micro-management except perhaps for things microscopic :-).

If we take a half step back from pure energy metabolism, the body also uses fats structurally in cell walls, and proteins for repair/maintenance. Finally I suspect that since we evolved from a combination of previously successful substrates, we are capable of extracting useful energy from C, F, or P.

Regarding exercise, as has been previously stated, there is a significant ratiometric phenomenon related to effort level and duration. I can attest from experience that this is surely non-linear. I won't bore you with another sports story, but I can attest if you push too hard you will run out of muscular glycogen way too soon, and no amount of sports drinks or sugary snacks to pump up blood glucose will help, only time.

While there surely is a "wall" while running marathons when glycogen stores can run out, many inexperienced runners hit that wall way too soon. It's not because they carry less glycogen, they may in fact start with more than slender runners, but they consume what they had too quickly by pushing too hard. Distance running is the best evidence against mind over matter, at least wrt rate of work output.

JR

-----Original Message-----From: jwwright [mailto:jwwright@...]Sent: Sunday, October 17, 2004 11:42 AM Subject: Re: [ ] Re: How much exercise is euf?

I'll comment because this is an important point. The fact the body uses both fat and glucose in combination for energy. It's discussed in one of Covert 's books but no precise numbers.

The number I use in my calcs is 200 glucose to 100 fat and I cannot remember where I got that ratio (several years ago). I've always wondered what the exact number might be.

I do know that I can estimate the weight loss from day to day using 2:1 and the fact that 100 glucose will release 4.6 oz of water. So that gives me an estimate of the total weight loss - fat, carbo and water. So a 300 kcal exercise works out to be 0.76 #, if not refed.

It seems to hold true whether I walk 3 miles on the treddy (300 kcals) or do 3 hours routine outdoor work (I've learned to relate 1 hour routine work to 100 kcals.)

Not to dispute Mcardle, but a low fat diet may alter the ratios? What would be 0.33 to 1, maybe in Mcardle terms.

Just wondering.

Regards.

----- Original Message -----

From: Jeff Novick

Sent: Thursday, October 14, 2004 1:19 PM

Subject: RE: [ ] Re: How much exercise is euf?

>>>From what I have read, the body first burns stored glycogen, which isa form of starch, and when it is exhausted, it begins to burn fat. Youwill only burn fat while sedentary during a prolonged fast.Under "normal" situations, we are always burning a mixture of fat andcarbohydrate, somewhere around 40/60 to 50/50. We also burn a smallamount of protein, but that usually is a small percentage and it doesn'tchange much. What can change is the percent of energy we burn from fator carb.As intensity increase, we burn a higher percent carb because the pathwayfor burner fat is a "slower" process as it involves more steps. Itsrare that it would be 100% carb because it would have to be anextrememly high intensity, which most people cant maintain as the byproduct lactate builds up in the muscles causing discomfort. Also, atthe highest intensity we switch to P-Cr for about 10-20 seconds as wecant even burn glucose that fast. When you stop ingesting dietary sources of carbohydrate, it takes about48-72 hours to deplete our glycogen stores. When we do, we will switchto burning pure fat, though some of it will be converted to ketones tobe burned as the brain can utilize ketones but not fat. Some studies will measure RQ as it is a measure of the fuel mix beingburned as Carb and Fat release differing amounts of CO2. From the standard graduate textbook on Exercise Phsyiology by McardleKatch and Katch."During activities that range from complete bed rest to mild aerobicexercise such as walking or mild jogging, the RQ seldom reflects theoxidation of pure carb or pure fat. Instead a mixture of thesenutrients is usually used, and the RQ is intermediate in value between.7 (pure fat) and 1.0 (pure carb). For most purposes an RQ Of .82 fromthe metabolism of a mixture of 40$ carb and 60% fat can be assumed..."I don't know if anyone has ever done a Exercise Tolerance Test or StressTest to completion, but I have had the displeasure of attempting it onseveral occasions, and hitting the RQ Of 1.0 is a heck of a feat. Mostpeople quit somewhere in the .90-.95 range.As our reserves of carb is limited to the storage capacity of ourmuscles and liver, and the reseves of fat could almost be unlimited,there is a "shift" during longterm exercise, to conserve carb and burnmore fat. This is where the notion that we don't burn fat till afterone hour comes from, though it is inaccurate. Also, well trainedathletes seem to be more efficient at burning fat, so this can alsoalter the ratio slightly.