Re: Fat, SFA, EFA, Chol, and the USDA... SALT again

[Guest guest]

I've posted about this before, and once again this is my personal anecdotal experience.

I find that since I consume zero processed foods and don't routinely add salt to recipes I have encountered side effects due to consuming too little. In my case the side effect was cramping which I've been able to manage by mixing a few grams of salt into a glass of water every other day or so. I often forget and am reminded by the onset of cramping.

I don't believe this is a disease state in my case. I am probably more active than most here... running 15 miles a week in MS heat, and playing a few hours of basketball in addition to that.

For the segment of the population for whom salt modulates their BP upward, consumption (and BP) should be monitored for possible ill effects. I am aware of others who have reported lethargy or low energy from inadequate sodium intake. The broad strokes advice to eat less salt is no doubt appropriate for those still eating even modest amounts of processed food. Just keep in mind there is such a thing as not enough. The body is very effective at conserving salt since it is necessary for life. However my sweat tastes salty and that has to come from somewhere..... YMMV.

Once we start preparing 100% of our meals from natural foods, we will no longer be prey to the bad things (salt, trans fats, sugar) and good things (enriched additives) routinely added to the general food supply. We need to move beyond the general advice and review our personal situation, diet, whatever.

Be well.

JR

-----Original Message-----From: Jeff Novick [mailto:jnovick@...]Sent: Thursday, September 30, 2004 9:46 AM Subject: RE: [ ] Re: Fat, SFA, EFA, Chol, and the USDA

>> I agree with 1500 mg sodium completely because that's what I found for me by test. There is a bottom to that though. Some may need more than 800mg, so I state it as 1250 +/- 250 mgs.

Like with everything, we dont have any "rules" carved in stone. The upper limit is 1500 mgs. We adjust based on health condition, as some need much less to be effective and occasionally, you run into some complications and advanced disease where they may actually need a little more.

[Guest guest]

Not to disagree with your experience, but I think it's not necessary to have "salty" sweat. Mine is on the order of 50 to 100 mg/oz. Even sweating heavily I never get to a "faint" or cramps with >800 mg intake, BUT there is a necessary balance, IMO to the potassium eaten. SO there is some minimum to balance the K. Maybe <4K:1Na.

Another effect of low sodium with excess potassium from foods is diarrhea.

I found that with a diuretic quickly, even not on a low sodium diet.

Another effect is that some blood tests are effected (they don't compensate in the test), Calcium for one, if taken the same day your fasting for a lipid test. Now I do PSA test on a different day.

The rec for everyone may not be appropriate, but there is some thought that sodium CAUSES HTN. that's because of looking at peoples who eat no sodium and have no HTN. I think that logic is flawed. Because there are many people who eat a lot of sodium and do not have HTN.

Low sodium, IMO, is a therapy for HTN.

And if I go into a hospital for another thing that requires an IV, I will certainly take salt to pump up the arteries.

Regards.

----- Original Message -----

From:

Sent: Thursday, September 30, 2004 10:31 AM

Subject: RE: [ ] Re: Fat, SFA, EFA, Chol, and the USDA... SALT again

I've posted about this before, and once again this is my personal anecdotal experience.

I find that since I consume zero processed foods and don't routinely add salt to recipes I have encountered side effects due to consuming too little. In my case the side effect was cramping which I've been able to manage by mixing a few grams of salt into a glass of water every other day or so. I often forget and am reminded by the onset of cramping.

I don't believe this is a disease state in my case. I am probably more active than most here... running 15 miles a week in MS heat, and playing a few hours of basketball in addition to that.

For the segment of the population for whom salt modulates their BP upward, consumption (and BP) should be monitored for possible ill effects. I am aware of others who have reported lethargy or low energy from inadequate sodium intake. The broad strokes advice to eat less salt is no doubt appropriate for those still eating even modest amounts of processed food. Just keep in mind there is such a thing as not enough. The body is very effective at conserving salt since it is necessary for life. However my sweat tastes salty and that has to come from somewhere..... YMMV.

Once we start preparing 100% of our meals from natural foods, we will no longer be prey to the bad things (salt, trans fats, sugar) and good things (enriched additives) routinely added to the general food supply. We need to move beyond the general advice and review our personal situation, diet, whatever.

Be well.

JR

[Guest guest]

Hi folks:

Didn't we have a discussion here some time ago, that cramps have

different causes in different individuals? For some, higher salt

intake solves the problem. For others it doesn't.

I seem to remember that vitamin D was reported to be effective for

some people. How many people in more northerly locations notice they

get more cramp in March/April, when their D reserves have been

depleted, than in September/October, when sunlight has restored their

supply?

From many accounts vitamin D is something you certainly do not want

to have a deficiency of.

Rodney.

--- In , " jwwright " <jwwright@e...>

wrote:

> Not to disagree with your experience, but I think it's not

necessary to have " salty " sweat. Mine is on the order of 50 to 100

mg/oz. Even sweating heavily I never get to a " faint " or cramps with

>800 mg intake, BUT there is a necessary balance, IMO to the

potassium eaten. SO there is some minimum to balance the K. Maybe

<4K:1Na.

>

> Another effect of low sodium with excess potassium from foods is

diarrhea.

> I found that with a diuretic quickly, even not on a low sodium

diet.

>

> Another effect is that some blood tests are effected (they don't

compensate in the test), Calcium for one, if taken the same day your

fasting for a lipid test. Now I do PSA test on a different day.

>

> The rec for everyone may not be appropriate, but there is some

thought that sodium CAUSES HTN. that's because of looking at peoples

who eat no sodium and have no HTN. I think that logic is flawed.

Because there are many people who eat a lot of sodium and do not have

HTN.

>

> Low sodium, IMO, is a therapy for HTN.

>

> And if I go into a hospital for another thing that requires an IV,

I will certainly take salt to pump up the arteries.

>

> Regards.

>

> ----- Original Message -----

> From:

>

> Sent: Thursday, September 30, 2004 10:31 AM

> Subject: RE: [ ] Re: Fat, SFA, EFA, Chol, and the

USDA... SALT again

>

>

> I've posted about this before, and once again this is my personal

anecdotal experience.

>

> I find that since I consume zero processed foods and don't

routinely add salt to recipes I have encountered side effects due to

consuming too little. In my case the side effect was cramping which

I've been able to manage by mixing a few grams of salt into a glass

of water every other day or so. I often forget and am reminded by the

onset of cramping.

>

> I don't believe this is a disease state in my case. I am probably

more active than most here... running 15 miles a week in MS heat, and

playing a few hours of basketball in addition to that.

>

> For the segment of the population for whom salt modulates their

BP upward, consumption (and BP) should be monitored for possible ill

effects. I am aware of others who have reported lethargy or low

energy from inadequate sodium intake. The broad strokes advice to eat

less salt is no doubt appropriate for those still eating even modest

amounts of processed food. Just keep in mind there is such a thing as

not enough. The body is very effective at conserving salt since it

is necessary for life. However my sweat tastes salty and that has to

come from somewhere..... YMMV.

>

> Once we start preparing 100% of our meals from natural foods, we

will no longer be prey to the bad things (salt, trans fats, sugar)

and good things (enriched additives) routinely added to the general

food supply. We need to move beyond the general advice and review our

personal situation, diet, whatever.

>

> Be well.

>

> JR

[Guest guest]

>> I don't believe this is a disease state in my case. I am probably more active than most here... running 15 miles a week in MS heat, and playing a few hours of basketball in addition to that.

Sorry, I didnt mean to apply that if you are taking in more sodium, or find that works for you, that you have a diseased condition. Just that in our population, that has been the only situation where we have seen the need to increase it.

Jeff

[Guest guest]

I did a bunch of surfing a while back trying to discover the cause of my

cramping and didn't determine a clear understandable mechanism. However I do

know what worked for me, thus my anecdotal caveat.

RE. Vit D: I am a big advocate of getting adequate sunlight and in my case

my mid-day outdoor run probably insures a fair amount. For the record I use

some sun block on my nose and (red)neck. The fact that my cramping sometimes

correlates with bouts of heavy outdoor exercise suggests to me that at least

for my case Vit D is not the mechanism. Ironically calcium deficiency has

been suggested as a possible vector (as it affects muscle cell chemistry),

so drinking milk for Vit D may help by also providing calcium.

For me it's probably not directly the salt either, perhaps indirectly my

hydration level. I try to get plenty of K but haven't checked the Na/K

balance lately.

I find it remarkable how little we really know about cramping but perhaps

it's because it's typically only uncomfortable and usually not life

threatening. I do recall my mother keeping us out of the swimming pool

immediately after meals but it wasn't hard to do since we didn't have a

swimming pool :-)

JR

-----Original Message-----

From: Rodney [mailto:perspect1111@...]

Sent: Thursday, September 30, 2004 11:27 AM

Subject: [ ] Re: Fat, SFA, EFA, Chol, and the USDA... SALT

again

Hi folks:

Didn't we have a discussion here some time ago, that cramps have

different causes in different individuals? For some, higher salt

intake solves the problem. For others it doesn't.

I seem to remember that vitamin D was reported to be effective for

some people. How many people in more northerly locations notice they

get more cramp in March/April, when their D reserves have been

depleted, than in September/October, when sunlight has restored their

supply?

From many accounts vitamin D is something you certainly do not want

to have a deficiency of.

Rodney.

---

[Guest guest]

>>>

From: apricot85 <apricot85@a...>

Date: Thu Sep 30, 2004 4:11 pm

Where are the cramps? (ex. side stitch from running? calf cramps?

feet & hands?) Do they happen only at night? Presumably, you are not

referring to RLS (restless leg syndrome - night time twitch)

>>>

Here links that describe heat cramps and dehydration.

http://www.drreddy.com/heat.html

http://www.merck.com/mrkshared/mmanual/section20/chapter279/279d.jsp

When I go hiking, I always take a small container with Morton's Lite

Salt mixture which contains: salt, potassium chloride, calcium

silicate, magnesium carbonate, dextrose, and potassium iodide.

People who perspire a lot need to drink water and replenish the

electrolytes to avoid hyponatremia.

http://www.merck.com/mrkshared/CVMHighLight?file=/mrkshared/mmanual/section2/cha\

pter12/12b.jsp%3Fregion%3Dmerckcom & word=hyponatremia & domain=www.merck.com#hl_anc\

hor

Tony

[Guest guest]

In general cramps that occurred at night were in hamstrings. The occasional early warning (time to drink some salt) waking cramps were small and in extremities, usually feet but sometimes hands.

I suspect in my case it is due to deep depletion of muscles from exercise (more common after basketball than just from running a few miles). The fact that I have very low BP may aggravate muscle cell recovery/clearance. It's not hard to imagine sleep position also impacting blood flow at night. I have woken up with an arm all "pins and needles" due to accidental blood flow restriction.

I have managed to control this fully by supplementing salt... even with drinking a couple of grams here and there I am probably not above recommendations for the general population FWIW.

I only offer my experience to balance the "all salt is evil" mantra. We need salt to live.

JR

-----Original Message-----From: apricot85 [mailto:apricot85@...]Sent: Thursday, September 30, 2004 3:11 PM Subject: Re: [ ] Re: Fat, SFA, EFA, Chol, and the USDA... SALT againWhere are the cramps? (ex. side stitch from running? calf cramps? feet & hands?) Do they happen only at night? Presumably, you are not referring to RLS (restless leg syndrome - night time twitch) wrote:

I've posted about this before, and once again this is my personal anecdotal experience.

I find that since I consume zero processed foods and don't routinely add salt to recipes I have encountered side effects due to consuming too little. In my case the side effect was cramping which I've been able to manage by mixing a few grams of salt into a glass of water every other day or so. I often forget and am reminded by the onset of cramping.

[Guest guest]

Hi JR:

A suggestion regarding supplementing with sodium chloride .........

do you know whether it is the sodium you need for the cramps, or is

it the chloride? It probably isn't both.

The reason I ask is that salt seems to cause both stomach cancer and

strokes in Japan (and even in north america I understand it has long

been noticed that patients with one of them - stroke or stomach

cancer - get the other with much greater frequency than one would

expect purely from chance, suggesting a common causative factor).

So if you knew which it was that fixes the cramps, perhaps

supplementing with something else, that still provided the element

you need, might be a better solution. Potassium chloride might work

as well if it is the chloride you need, while the potassium is

certainly harmless. Or some other sodium compound might do the trick

if it is the sodium you need. If I was doing this I would want

professional medical advice about which to choose.

Just a thought. No scientific backup to this. Just seems to make

sense. It would take a lot of inconvenience or discomfort to

persuade me to start salt supplementation.

Rodney.

>

> I've posted about this before, and once again this is my

personal

> anecdotal experience.

>

> I find that since I consume zero processed foods and don't

routinely add

> salt to recipes I have encountered side effects due to consuming

too little.

> In my case the side effect was cramping which I've been able to

manage by

> mixing a few grams of salt into a glass of water every other day or

so. I

> often forget and am reminded by the onset of cramping.

[Guest guest]

I used to use KCl in place of NaCl or 50/50 in some recipes. I ran out and

will buy some more next time a place a large order from an appropriate

vendor.

No I do not know precisely what was causing the cramps but suspect either

low hydration or low electrolytes.

To repeat my salt intake is not high even with the supplementation.

JR

-----Original Message-----

From: Rodney [mailto:perspect1111@...]

Sent: Thursday, September 30, 2004 6:31 PM

Subject: [ ] Re: Fat, SFA, EFA, Chol, and the USDA... SALT

again

Hi JR:

A suggestion regarding supplementing with sodium chloride .........

do you know whether it is the sodium you need for the cramps, or is

it the chloride? It probably isn't both.

The reason I ask is that salt seems to cause both stomach cancer and

strokes in Japan (and even in north america I understand it has long

been noticed that patients with one of them - stroke or stomach

cancer - get the other with much greater frequency than one would

expect purely from chance, suggesting a common causative factor).

So if you knew which it was that fixes the cramps, perhaps

supplementing with something else, that still provided the element

you need, might be a better solution. Potassium chloride might work

as well if it is the chloride you need, while the potassium is

certainly harmless. Or some other sodium compound might do the trick

if it is the sodium you need. If I was doing this I would want

professional medical advice about which to choose.

Just a thought. No scientific backup to this. Just seems to make

sense. It would take a lot of inconvenience or discomfort to

persuade me to start salt supplementation.

Rodney.

[Guest guest]

I use sodium bicarbonate, mostly, when I need sodium, so I think it's definitely sodium or K/Na balance.

There's a very old idea (1925) that sodium bicarb has something to do with promoting the excretion of acetones and I never found out yet if that's good?

Regards.

----- Original Message -----

From: Rodney

Sent: Thursday, September 30, 2004 6:30 PM

Subject: [ ] Re: Fat, SFA, EFA, Chol, and the USDA... SALT again

Hi JR:A suggestion regarding supplementing with sodium chloride ......... do you know whether it is the sodium you need for the cramps, or is it the chloride? It probably isn't both.The reason I ask is that salt seems to cause both stomach cancer and strokes in Japan (and even in north america I understand it has long been noticed that patients with one of them - stroke or stomach cancer - get the other with much greater frequency than one would expect purely from chance, suggesting a common causative factor).So if you knew which it was that fixes the cramps, perhaps supplementing with something else, that still provided the element you need, might be a better solution. Potassium chloride might work as well if it is the chloride you need, while the potassium is certainly harmless. Or some other sodium compound might do the trick if it is the sodium you need. If I was doing this I would want professional medical advice about which to choose. Just a thought. No scientific backup to this. Just seems to make sense. It would take a lot of inconvenience or discomfort to persuade me to start salt supplementation.Rodney.

[Guest guest]

--- In , " jwwright " <jwwright@e...>

wrote:

> I use sodium bicarbonate, mostly, when I need sodium, so I think

it's definitely sodium or K/Na balance.

> There's a very old idea (1925) that sodium bicarb has something to

do with promoting the excretion of acetones and I never found out yet

if that's good?

Hi All,

What about the iodide in NaCl. Is it in NaCO(3)? Some suggest

caronate or bicarbonates for improving the pH of the blood.

Cheers, Al.

[Guest guest]

Hi Al:

That is a good point. Anyone who thinks they may not be getting

enough iodine can easily fix it with a **TINY** amount of kelp, which

is loaded with it. But it is important also not to overdo iodine, as

is true of many other nutrients.

Rodney.

> > I use sodium bicarbonate, mostly, when I need sodium, so I think

> it's definitely sodium or K/Na balance.

> > There's a very old idea (1925) that sodium bicarb has something

to

> do with promoting the excretion of acetones and I never found out

yet

> if that's good?

>

> Hi All,

>

> What about the iodide in NaCl. Is it in NaCO(3)? Some suggest

> caronate or bicarbonates for improving the pH of the blood.

>

> Cheers, Al.

[Guest guest]

>>>

From: " jwwright " <jwwright@e...>

Date: Fri Oct 1, 2004 10:36 am

I use sodium bicarbonate, mostly, when I need sodium, so I think it's

definitely sodium or K/Na balance.

There's a very old idea (1925) that sodium bicarb has something to do

with promoting the excretion of acetones and I never found out yet if

that's good?

>>>

Consuming sodium bicarbonate has the potential of causing ALKALOSIS.

You may also want to look at the link about ACIDOSIS in this web page.

http://www.umm.edu/ency/article/001183.htm

Sodium chloride does not affect the blood pH.

Tony