Re: Re: What is extreme CR?

[Guest guest]

That depends on why. If you have heart disease and are following Ornish, it

certainly seems to be the sane thing to do to regain good health. Or if

you're a vegetarian or vegan and it's because of principle or ethics, I

understand such thinking. After all, our principles/ethics are part of what

makes us human.

However if you're a CRONIE and already are skin and bones and just want to

get even skinnier or (as in one real life example) want to cut out all

grains at 6' and 115 pounds, just to cut calories even more to the bone

(pun intended) I would call that extreme.

If you notice Walford did not cut out meat. He suggested occasional lean

cuts of meat and poultry. Personally I find that prudent for the B12, iron,

etc and whatever else we might not know about. As noted previously I only

eat red meat perhaps once a month.

on 10/25/2004 9:08 PM, freebird5005 at freebird5005@... wrote:

>

> " Cutting out an entire food group such as all whole grains (unless

> you're allergic) extreme. "

>

> Do you consider cutting out meat extreme?

[Guest guest]

-----Original Message-----

From: freebird5005 [mailto:freebird5005@...]

Sent: Monday, October 25, 2004 8:08 PM

Subject: [ ] Re: What is extreme CR?

" Cutting out an entire food group such as all whole grains (unless

you're allergic) extreme. "

Do you consider cutting out meat extreme?

>

===================

No, not extreme as a short term intervention to achieve some specific

result, or perhaps to satisfy some religious belief.

However my personal belief is that a bigger risk for energy restricted

individuals might be missing some useful, perhaps poorly understood,

nutrient than getting too much of another, even if determined to be

unhealthy when (over?) consumed in unhealthy SAD diets. A moderate mix of

diverse foods is likely to cover more bases, even ones we might not know of.

I have no problem with cutting out trans-fats and other " manufactured "

psuedo foods.

I don't invest too much of my self esteem in whether others might find my

diet extreme. For that matter I suspect the vast majority of my neighbors

(in Hickory, MS) surely do. The few I have shared with have as much as told

me, and by CR norms I'm fat and happy.

JR

[Guest guest]

Personally, vegetarianism was a complete health disaster for me.

Nonetheless, there are those who react better & feel better on just

plant based diet. And there will always be " in-betweens " , & different

needs.

Your words seem to be designed to provoke a rally. And on subject of

vegetarianism, more than an interest in subject of CRON. Similarly, I

do not understand the need to initiate arguments to prove that

elimination of one food is best for all (e.g. fish).

ONeill wrote:

> While I eat all of those things (though I eat red meat rarely), I

> myself wouldn't consider vegetarians " extreme. " Is this the definition

> that others are applying? And if so, how do the vegetarians on the

> list feel about this?

[Guest guest]

I think eggs and milk are just as much vegetarian as meats. I think I need some animal protein because that's how I got here. There is an article that says that people who switch after age 35yo do not achieve the same benefits as lifelong vegetarians. I will allow that vegans maybe live longer than vegetarians also, but that can't benefit me now.

That implies that something happens when we were growing up if we were vegetarians. They are known to be smaller, lower BMI.

So I have to rely on studies that are closer to my lifestyle in previous years. If I cut out meats entirely, something might fall off. But I rarely eat any meat now. Just walking past the raw meat in the store is sickening. Or opening a can of Alaskan wild salmon. My smeller is tuned off of meats.

So I may eat a meat away from home as the opportunity presents itself.

I think, if they took all the condiments off the meats, salt, sauces, batter, etc., people would eat less of it.

Regards.

----- Original Message -----

From: ONeill

Sent: Tuesday, October 26, 2004 12:10 AM

Subject: Re: [ ] Re: What is extreme CR?

Hi, Freebird--

You're asking the same question I'm asking, in essence. If cutting out a whole food group is extreme, what about vegetarians? Vegetarians don't eat meat, poultry, or fish.

While I eat all of those things (though I eat red meat rarely), I myself wouldn't consider vegetarians "extreme." Is this the definition that others are applying? And if so, how do the vegetarians on the list feel about this?

[Guest guest]

If I visit my doc looking like 7/27/00, she will think I have cancer or a heart attack (experience).

Subjective is a lot of what a doc uses.

Dean uses 2000 kcals.

Dean's program is NOT what I will use (gut feeling).

I may look like that at 100 yo.

Regards.

----- Original Message -----

From: rwalkerad1970

Sent: Tuesday, October 26, 2004 9:53 AM

Subject: [ ] Re: What is extreme CR?

It may be subjective, but if you come into calorie restriction without anorexic tendencies then you will know what slim means, what thin means and what anorexic means. Looking at these five pictures of Dean P as he calorie restricted over a few years. There is a point (which will vary with individuals) at which Deans body is enough for them and they wish to go no further. To me dean seemed to start at a good weight/look, then got thin then ended up looking anorexic (but I am not saying he is anorexic, but I certainly would not want to look like that, it looks too fragile). He eats around 1800 cals a day (and is total vegan having recently given up whey) http://deanpomerleau.tripod.com/pictures/index.htm

[Guest guest]

You seem to be talking about set point. Set point as described by Walford

is not a good guide to use. The experience of many CRONIES is that it

moves around throughout life. And it's elusive.

There are other reasons not to conform to that formula. If you are an older

person or at least past youth, it's dangerous and you achieve the opposite,

dying young.

Read the files!

on 10/26/2004 3:14 PM, freebird5005 at freebird5005@... wrote:

>

> That's a good qualification.. " if one suspects ... "

>

> Dr. Walford suggests shooting for 10% below what one's bodyweight was

> at a young age like highschool.. (I assume this group does not

> consider this extreme?)

>

> And this might be a good [rough] measure..

>

> But..

>

> What if one was overweight during this period in life? The one has no

> ready reference to draw from.

>

> I hate to seem to be harping on it..

>

> But low BF level is really what Dr. Walford had in mind ..

>

> So, isn't shooting for <5% or so BF what he had in mind? Is this

> extreme? What purpose does more BF serve??

>

> If you get down to 5% BF with good nutrition you are pretty much on

> target, right??

>

[Guest guest]

I would advise caution about assuming BMI or %BF can provide a simple safe

lower limit for restriction. I suspect a real limit also involves some

consideration for lean body mass and perhaps even activity level.

I understand the human desire to attach numbers to firm goals or targets but

we vary quite a bit as individuals in genetic background and life

experience. Probably the safest advice for any in doubt is to monitor blood

markers for abrupt changes or outliers, sense of well being, functionality,

and ability to stay out of the hospital :-).

JR

-----Original Message-----

From: freebird5005 [mailto:freebird5005@...]

Sent: Tuesday, October 26, 2004 2:15 PM

Subject: [ ] Re: What is extreme CR?

That's a good qualification.. " if one suspects ... "

Dr. Walford suggests shooting for 10% below what one's bodyweight was

at a young age like highschool.. (I assume this group does not

consider this extreme?)

And this might be a good [rough] measure..

But..

What if one was overweight during this period in life? The one has no

ready reference to draw from.

I hate to seem to be harping on it..

But low BF level is really what Dr. Walford had in mind ..

So, isn't shooting for <5% or so BF what he had in mind? Is this

extreme? What purpose does more BF serve??

If you get down to 5% BF with good nutrition you are pretty much on

target, right??

> >

> > Rodney, your thots mirror mine.. I've seen his photos before the

> first

> >

[Guest guest]

The wustl link that Alan just posted http://www.cron-web.org/WUSTL.htm is

one cohort that may be useful to look at, although some may argue that it is

incomplete and perhaps not a golden standard for safe practice.

I notice gaps in the ferritin which is a little troubling since I believe

Dean has wrestled with anemia and low iron may be a risk factor for others

to, especially vegans.

The " other " CR group takes a pretty scientific approach re: testing and

attempting to understand how the markers change. I believe they have some

advice on their website which shouldn't be too hard to find. This is clearly

an embryonic science so don't expect firm or final answers.

Finally, do what I say, not what I do.

Since I am me, and you are you.

JR

-----Original Message-----

From: Rodney [mailto:perspect1111@...]

Sent: Tuesday, October 26, 2004 3:40 PM

Subject: [ ] Re: What is extreme CR?

Hi JR:

Can you suggest which markers you think would be the most revealing?

I.E. those one should pay the closest attention to.

Rodney.

--- In , " " <crjohnr@b...>

wrote:

> I would advise caution about assuming BMI or %BF can provide a

> simple safe lower limit for restriction. Probably the safest

> advice for any in doubt is to monitor blood markers for abrupt

> changes or outliers ............

[Guest guest]

I am not enthusiastic about attempts to define a concise " safe " lower limit

for CR as that may become a target to meet or beat for goal oriented

individuals (how's that for a kind characterization?). There are overlapping

phenomenon some with J curves and some that continue all the way to the

grave! Another perhaps non-linear metric is safety margin for illness or

injuries which don't come in neat quantifiable packages. The good news is

we're unlikely to starve due to unavailability of food but what if we're too

sick to eat?

I doubt anyone will come up with a simple answer that isn't based on sundry

assumptions, each capable of swinging the result. BMI is confused by LBM

and/or central adiposity, %BF may be confounded by LBM/activity, etc....

I am personally content to focus on doing better than I did yesterday, and

at least doing no worse. I don't mind seeing folks further out on the limb

than me, but I sure don't want to see anyone fall off.

There already are general guidelines. If you have drifted below them, get

thee to a Dr. for testing and watch your tiny butt.

Be well...

JR

-----Original Message-----

From: Rodney [mailto:perspect1111@...]

Sent: Tuesday, October 26, 2004 4:23 PM

Subject: [ ] Re: What is extreme CR?

Hi folks:

And I suggest that before we can sensibly define what LEVEL of CR

constitutes extremism we need to have evidence indicating at what

point harm occurs, or where the benefits start to diminish. (As far

as I know we do not have a good fix on that yet).

I say this since we presumably would not describe 50% caloric

restricition as extreme **if** we had clear evidence that that was

where the greatest health benefit occurs for humans.

Whatever the optimal degree of restriction turns out to be

(10% ...... 50% or whatever), it would not mean that everyone on CR

must adhere to that degree of restriction. We could each (I know JR

will like this part!) decide for ourselves, taking everything into

consideration, what we feel most comfortable with.

Rodney.

--

[Guest guest]

Throw out Hip/waist ratio if a person has no glutials.

Regards.

----- Original Message -----

From: old542000

Sent: Tuesday, October 26, 2004 3:17 PM

Subject: [ ] Re: What is extreme CR?

Hi All,It looked to me more like Khurram;See:http://www.cron-web.org/WUSTL.htm = WUSTL study results. Cheers, AL Pater.> > > Perhaps I am confused. But I thought Dean was the example quoted > > here as being six feet tall and 115 pounds?????

[Guest guest]

Yesterday I ate too many walnuts...

JR

-----Original Message-----

From: freebird5005 [mailto:freebird5005@...]

Sent: Tuesday, October 26, 2004 5:47 PM

Subject: [ ] Re: What is extreme CR?

, what *is* " doing better than I did yesterday " ?

--- In , " " <crjohnr@b...>

wrote:

> I am not enthusiastic about attempts to define a concise " safe "

lower limit

> for CR as that may become a target to meet or beat for goal oriented

> individuals (how's that for a kind characterization?). There are

overlapping

> phenomenon some with J curves and some that continue all the way to the

> grave! Another perhaps non-linear metric is safety margin for illness or

> injuries which don't come in neat quantifiable packages. The good

news is

> we're unlikely to starve due to unavailability of food but what if

we're too

> sick to eat?

>

> I doubt anyone will come up with a simple answer that isn't based on

sundry

> assumptions, each capable of swinging the result. BMI is confused by LBM

> and/or central adiposity, %BF may be confounded by LBM/activity, etc....

>

> I am personally content to focus on doing better than I did

yesterday, and

> at least doing no worse. I don't mind seeing folks further out on

the limb

> than me, but I sure don't want to see anyone fall off.

>

> There already are general guidelines. If you have drifted below

them, get

> thee to a Dr. for testing and watch your tiny butt.

>

> Be well...

>

> JR

>

[Guest guest]

NO! Fran did not say Dean, she was merely using those numbers as a ref for what in her mind was extreme.

You'll know you're extreme if you wake up dead, or anorexic, or cannot carry in the groceries, or drive a car without power steering, or keep up with the 2 yo.

The CRer rats did NOT look emaciated. The AL rats looked ratty.

It's my conclusion that Micky and Dean are not eating the same food.

Regards.

----- Original Message -----

From: rwalkerad1970

Sent: Wednesday, October 27, 2004 7:51 AM

Subject: [ ] Re: What is extreme CR?

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 10/27/04 7:52:40 AM Eastern Standard Time, rwalkerad1970@... writes:

but while

talking about different body types on CR, anybody interested should

try and get pics of Micky Snir, he is Mr Beefy and does it on 2000

cals just like Tony. ha, just found a picture of him :

http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/localnews/2001789302_agecalorie

s12m.html

let's see, from the story he's 38yo, 5 feet 10 inches tall and 170 pounds, and very active. I calculate the Benedict BMR as 1755 and the figure for sedentary is 2106 cals. So what gives here?

There's also this: "Snir... says he has avoided the gaunt appearance and weakened bones typical of many of his calorie-restricted diet brethren by eating a lot of protein powder and lifting heavy weights."

That sounds like quite a magic trick. If he's getting fewer calories than that needed to sustain his weight, then he can't retain muscle just by consuming protein (which would be burned as fuel) and lifting weights (which would burn even more calories).

--

Ken