Re: Adorable grains/legumes.

[Guest guest]

I know that nutritionally there are some grains which are better than others, but I'm wondering if based upon experience, CRONers find some grains and/or legume more tasty than others.

And, if there are simple spices that some of your find make grains/legumes more yummy.

Bernadette, who don't know nuthin' about science, but likes to eat

[Guest guest]

It probably doesn't make a lot of difference to most of us, but

Chana Dal is distinctly different from Garbanzo Beans, Chick Peas,

Besan, etc. Dal refers to smaller pulses, more like split peas.

According to Mendosa, in the very URL you've posted, the great

thing about Chana Dal is that for some reason, its glycemic index is

very low: very important to diabetics, and those who think high GI

foods lead to greater fat depostion.

If the low GI is important to you, by all means read 's

dissertation closely. Among other things, he cites a couple of

sources of " real " Chana Dal.

If a low GI isn't that important to you, go ahead and enjoy your

chickpeas. Me, I favor A very hot Chana Masala every once in awhile.

Mike

Bengal Gram, What have you

>

> > I know that nutritionally there are some grains which are better

than

> > others, but I'm wondering if based upon experience, CRONers find

some

> > grains and/or legume more tasty than others.

> >

> > And, if there are simple spices that some of your find make

> > grains/legumes more yummy.

> >

> > Bernadette, who don't know nuthin' about science, but likes to

eat

> >

[Guest guest]

Hi Bernadette:

Also it has been posted here that 'quinoa' is a grain that is one of

the few vegetable sources of all the essential amino acids. Never

had any, but I have been looking for it for a while.

Rodney.

>

> > I know that nutritionally there are some grains which are better

than

> > others, but I'm wondering if based upon experience, CRONers find

some

> > grains and/or legume more tasty than others.

> >

> > And, if there are simple spices that some of your find make

> > grains/legumes more yummy.

> >

> > Bernadette, who don't know nuthin' about science, but likes to eat

> >

[Guest guest]

Hi :

What is a non-grain grain? (I thought I knew what a grain was, but

perhaps not if I don't know what a non-grain grain is?) So, 'what is

a grain?' perhaps should be added to the list of questions. Also,

what is the definition of 'cereal'? Is it different from 'grain'?

If so how? My dictionary says cereal is an edible grain - but what

would my dictionary know about such things? So does that mean if

they aren't called cereals then they aren't edible? What is the

difference between a nut and a grain? Is it that nuts have hard

shells and grain do not? They are all seeds, of course. Is there

some collective term for the seeds of grasses, like wheat, oats, etc?

Rodney.

> > >

> > > > I know that nutritionally there are some grains which are

better

> > than

> > > > others, but I'm wondering if based upon experience, CRONers

find

> > some

> > > > grains and/or legume more tasty than others.

> > > >

> > > > And, if there are simple spices that some of your find make

> > > > grains/legumes more yummy.

> > > >

> > > > Bernadette, who don't know nuthin' about science, but likes

to eat

> > > >

[Guest guest]

Hi folks:

Buckwheat:

http://www.nysaes.cornell.edu/hort/faculty/bjorkman/buck/guide/index.h

tml

http://snipurl.com/9w4e

Rodney.

> > > > >

> > > > > > I know that nutritionally there are some grains which are

> > better

> > > > than

> > > > > > others, but I'm wondering if based upon experience,

CRONers

> > find

> > > > some

> > > > > > grains and/or legume more tasty than others.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > And, if there are simple spices that some of your find

make

> > > > > > grains/legumes more yummy.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Bernadette, who don't know nuthin' about science, but

likes

> > to eat

> > > > > >

[Guest guest]

Jeff,

I hope that you meant to say " there are no COMPLETE vegetable sources "

because there is plenty of evidence that plant proteins are generally

deficient in some amino acids, e.g., tryptophan (corn), lysine (corn)

and methionine (beans); combinations are needed for adequate amino

acid balance.

B120YD p. 232-233 mentions human milk and whole eggs as being complete

whereas rice, soy, and wheat don't have the amino acid balance needed

for human nutrition unless combined, e.g., beans and brown rice.

Tony

=====

From: " Jeff Novick " <jnovick@p...>

Date: Tue Oct 19, 2004 11:20 am

Subject: RE: [ ] Re: Adorable grains/legumes.

Opps, didnt finish my sentence.....

>>There are no incomplete vegetable sources of all the amino acids.

This was a

myth popularized by a best selling diet book, that found its way into

the

mainstream media and textbooks, but was never true. I know it is ...

I meant to say... " i know it is mentioned in the BY 120 yr Diet, but

it is not

accurate and there exists no references for this information

anywhere. The

ones that do exist and have looked at it have found the opposite to be

true,

dating back even to the 1950s.

Reagrds

jeff

[Guest guest]

Hi All,

SDoybeans have all essential amnio acids.

Cheers, Al Pater.

>

> Jeff,

>

> I hope that you meant to say " there are no COMPLETE vegetable

sources "

> because there is plenty of evidence that plant proteins are

generally

> deficient in some amino acids, e.g., tryptophan (corn), lysine

(corn)

> and methionine (beans); combinations are needed for adequate amino

> acid balance.

>

> B120YD p. 232-233 mentions human milk and whole eggs as being

complete

> whereas rice, soy, and wheat don't have the amino acid balance

needed

> for human nutrition unless combined, e.g., beans and brown rice.

>

> Tony

>

> =====

>

> From: " Jeff Novick " <jnovick@p...>

> Date: Tue Oct 19, 2004 11:20 am

> Subject: RE: [ ] Re: Adorable grains/legumes.

>

> Opps, didnt finish my sentence.....

>

> >>There are no incomplete vegetable sources of all the amino acids.

> This was a

> myth popularized by a best selling diet book, that found its way

into

> the

> mainstream media and textbooks, but was never true. I know it is ...

>

> I meant to say... " i know it is mentioned in the BY 120 yr Diet, but

> it is not

> accurate and there exists no references for this information

> anywhere. The

> ones that do exist and have looked at it have found the opposite to

be

> true,

> dating back even to the 1950s.

>

> Reagrds

> jeff

[Guest guest]

Hi All,

I thought of interest in this regard that the below paper is on the

complete amino acid protein (compare soybeans with egges).

Horm Metab Res. 2004 Aug;36(8):550-8.

Effects of Soy-derived diets on plasma and liver lipids, glucose

tolerance, and

longevity in normal, long-lived and short-lived mice.

Bartke A, Peluso MR, Moretz N, C, Bonkowski M, Winters TA,

Shanahan MF,

Kopchick JJ, Banz WJ.

We examined the effects of diets based on a low isoflavone or a high

isoflavone

soy protein isolates in normal, growth-hormone receptor knockout and

Ames dwarf,

and Prop 1 (df) mice that are hypoinsulinemic, insulin-sensitive, and

exceptionally long-lived, as well as in growth hormone transgenic

mice that are

hyperinsulinemic, insulin-resistant, dyslipidemic, and short-lived.

Soybean

diets tended to normalize plasma cholesterol levels in dwarf and

transgenic

mice, while low isoflavone diet reduced plasma triglycerides in most

of the

examined genotypes. The effects of low isoflavone and high isoflavone

diets on

the levels of free and esterified cholesterol in the liver were

strongly

genotype-dependent. Fasting blood glucose levels were reduced and

glucose

tolerance improved by both low isoflavone and high isoflavone diets

in growth

hormone-transgenic mice and in their normal siblings. Glucose

tolerance was also

improved by high-isoflavone diet in growth hormone receptor knockout

mice.

Lifespan was increased by low isoflavone diet in normal mice from two

of the

examined stocks. High isoflavone diet increased lifespan in normal

animals from

one line, but reduced lifespan of normal mice from a different line.

We conclude

that dietary soy protein intake can improve plasma and hepatic lipid

profiles,

reduce fasting glucose, enhance capacity for glucose tolerance, and

prolong

life, but all of these effects are strongly genotype-dependent.

PMID: 15326565 [PubMed - in process]

Cheers, Alan Pater.

--- In , " jwwright " <jwwright@e...>

wrote:

> The word complete is not " complete " , ie, very misleading.

> All veggies contain all aminos acids, at least the ones I've used

for food. They just don't have the same amino acid profile as meats,

egg, milk. That word implies that we can't live on plants alone and

that is not correct.

> If one could derive a correct and precise amino acid profile for

humans, it might look like an egg's amino acids distribution, thought

to be perfect in some literature. However, since we always eat too

much protein, and the excess aminos are burned, what's the problem

with a protein that's not perfect? None as I can tell.

>

> BTW, eating less of some of those like tryptophan, methionine may

be a good thing for longevity.

> And the beans and rice thing is BS, IMO. See if you can

mathematically determine a combination of beans and rice amino acids

that equals an egg.

[Guest guest]

Hi All,

Those who consume corn-based diets tend to be difficient in

tryptophan, which can lead to pellagra. Corn has little tryptophan.

> (pss please excuse any spelling errors and remember what Mark Twain

said... " Dont beleive everything you read in a health book, you can

die of a misprint! "

Then I will not believe you, since " beleive " is an error.

Cheers, Al Pater.

--- In , " Jeff Novick " <jnovick@p...>

wrote:

> Tony

>

> >>I hope that you meant to say " there are no COMPLETE vegetable

sources "

>

> No, I meant there are no INCOMPLETE vegetable sources of all the

EAAs. The only known incomplete (lacking all EAAs) food product

commonly consumed is in fact an animal product, gelatin and not a

plant food.

>

> >>because there is plenty of evidence that plant proteins are

generally deficient in some amino acids, e.g., tryptophan (corn),

lysine (corn) and methionine (beans);

>

> As i said, there is a lot of (mis) information that is out there,

and it even exists in some medical and nutrition textbooks even

today, but there are no references for any of it. Even the

conservative American Dietetic Association reversed its position on

this myth many years ago. Most of the info is just someone repeating

the misinformation of someone else. About 9 months ago, one of my

patients was a professor of biochemistry at a medical school and

disputed my comments, as you are, saying it is in their current

textbook. I agreed that it does exist in the textbooks as elsewhere,

but I had them investigate it as I ask you to, and by the end of the

week, admitted their error and found what I said you would find,

that when you do seacrh the medical and biochemical data, what you

find is that going back to 1952 there are several published stduies

and articles showing the exact opposite, that plants do contain all

the EAAs and in the proper balance and can adequately meet the

protein requirements of humans. And this has been repeated and

published many times since.

>

> Check yourself. Just look and see if you can find those references

that actually analysed plant foods and found them defecient. Most

all the info can be linked back to a popular lay book called " diet

for a small planet " by Frances Lappee, which came out in 1971.

In the 1981 anniversary edition , even the author admitted that in

trying to end one myth (world hunger) she created another myth

(incomplete proteins and complementing proteins) which is untrue.

>

> Better yet, check the USDA Database SR 16 (the most current) is

online and we can seacrh any food and see the latest analysis

including the EAA content. Take my challange, put in any one whole

plant food, plug it in for 1500 calories and check the EAA content

against either the US RDA, the WHO or the revised WHO, and you will

see that in every cases not only does the food provide all EAAs, it

will usually do it in at least 2-10x the recopmmended amounts,

including, lysine, tryptophan and methionine.

>

> >>combinations are needed for adequate amino acid balance.

>

> Again, based on the myth. As i mentioned, I know that B120YD quotes

the myth (as does current textbooks) but again, try to find a

legitimate reference for it.

>

> I am not promoting a 100% vegan diet, I just think it is important

that we know the truth about this as it can lead to many other

errors and fears in dietary planning.

>

> Reagrds

>

> Jeff

>

> PS I am on the road again (a week hiking in the Santa Fe, Taos

area) but when I return I will post the major references for the

above, from 1952 to today.

[Guest guest]

http://www.nutritiondata.com/facts-001-02s04dz.html

(AA profile on bottom of page)

> > Tony

> >

> > >>I hope that you meant to say " there are no COMPLETE vegetable

> sources "

> >

> > No, I meant there are no INCOMPLETE vegetable sources of all the

> EAAs. The only known incomplete (lacking all EAAs) food product

> commonly consumed is in fact an animal product, gelatin and not a

> plant food.

> >

> > >>because there is plenty of evidence that plant proteins are

> generally deficient in some amino acids, e.g., tryptophan (corn),

> lysine (corn) and methionine (beans);

> >

> > As i said, there is a lot of (mis) information that is out there,

> and it even exists in some medical and nutrition textbooks even

> today, but there are no references for any of it. Even the

> conservative American Dietetic Association reversed its position on

> this myth many years ago. Most of the info is just someone repeating

> the misinformation of someone else. About 9 months ago, one of my

> patients was a professor of biochemistry at a medical school and

> disputed my comments, as you are, saying it is in their current

> textbook. I agreed that it does exist in the textbooks as elsewhere,

> but I had them investigate it as I ask you to, and by the end of the

> week, admitted their error and found what I said you would find,

> that when you do seacrh the medical and biochemical data, what you

> find is that going back to 1952 there are several published stduies

> and articles showing the exact opposite, that plants do contain all

> the EAAs and in the proper balance and can adequately meet the

> protein requirements of humans. And this has been repeated and

> published many times since.

> >

> > Check yourself. Just look and see if you can find those references

> that actually analysed plant foods and found them defecient. Most

> all the info can be linked back to a popular lay book called " diet

> for a small planet " by Frances Lappee, which came out in 1971.

> In the 1981 anniversary edition , even the author admitted that in

> trying to end one myth (world hunger) she created another myth

> (incomplete proteins and complementing proteins) which is untrue.

> >

> > Better yet, check the USDA Database SR 16 (the most current) is

> online and we can seacrh any food and see the latest analysis

> including the EAA content. Take my challange, put in any one whole

> plant food, plug it in for 1500 calories and check the EAA content

> against either the US RDA, the WHO or the revised WHO, and you will

> see that in every cases not only does the food provide all EAAs, it

> will usually do it in at least 2-10x the recopmmended amounts,

> including, lysine, tryptophan and methionine.

> >

> > >>combinations are needed for adequate amino acid balance.

> >

> > Again, based on the myth. As i mentioned, I know that B120YD quotes

> the myth (as does current textbooks) but again, try to find a

> legitimate reference for it.

> >

> > I am not promoting a 100% vegan diet, I just think it is important

> that we know the truth about this as it can lead to many other

> errors and fears in dietary planning.

> >

> > Reagrds

> >

> > Jeff

> >

> > PS I am on the road again (a week hiking in the Santa Fe, Taos

> area) but when I return I will post the major references for the

> above, from 1952 to today.

[Guest guest]

>>>

From: " Jeff Novick " <jnovick@p...>

Date: Wed Oct 20, 2004 12:02 pm

Better yet, check the USDA Database SR 16 (the most current) is online

and we can seacrh any food and see the latest analysis including the

EAA content. Take my challange, put in any one whole plant food, plug

it in for 1500 calories and check the EAA content against either the

US RDA, the WHO or the revised WHO, and you will see that in every

cases not only does the food provide all EAAs, it will usually do it

in at least 2-10x the recopmmended amounts, including, lysine,

tryptophan and methionine.

>>>

As Al pointed out in a previous note, the low level of tryptophan in

corn can cause pellagra when corn is consumed as the only staple. The

problem does not seem to be whether ALL the essential amino acids are

present, but whether they are present in the CORRECT proportion to be

used by the human body. This is explained in the IOM Report: Dietary

Reference Intakes for Energy, Carbohydrate, Fiber, Fat, Fatty Acids,

Cholesterol, Protein, and Amino Acids (Macronutrients) (2002) p. 534.

http://www.nap.edu/openbook/0309085373/html/534.html

By using the USDA site, I found out that you would have to eat 1.7Kg

of potatoes to get 1,500 calories and you would be getting only 32g of

protein. Since the RDA is about 75g of protein per day, you would

need to eat about 4Kg of potatoes (8.8 lb and 3,530 calories) to get

your minimum requirement of protein.

Eating only potatoes, you will probably fill up before you can eat

enough to meet your nutritional requirements and you will end up with

a deficiency disease of some type. The information for corn is also

included below. Corn is somewhat more nutritious than potatoes, as

far as protein is concerned.

I also compared the amino acid profile in nutritiondata.com with the

USDA site for 100g of yellow corn. Nutritiondata.com shows about 3

times more protein. I hope that the USDA data is more reliable.

Tony.

============

Corn, Pellagra, and Niacin:

http://www.wholegrain.umn.edu/grains/corn.htm

http://www.nutritiondata.com/facts-001-02s04dz.html

http://www.nal.usda.gov/fnic/foodcomp/cgi-bin/list_nut_edit.pl

Potatoes, boiled, cooked in skin, flesh, without salt

NDB No: 11365

1724 grams of edible portion

Energy kcal 1500

Protein 32.24g

Total lipid (fat) 1.72g

Amino acids

Tryptophan 0.500g

Threonine 1.172g

Isoleucine 1.310g

Leucine 1.931g

etc.

====

Corn, sweet, yellow, frozen, kernels cut off cob, unprepared

NDB No: 11178

1704 grams of edible portion

Energy kcal 1500

Protein 51.46g

Total lipid (fat) 13.12g

Amino acids

Tryptophan 0.358g

Threonine 2.062g

Isoleucine 2.062g

Leucine 5.555g

[Guest guest]

Hi All,

Corn yellow protein profile for 200 calories is:

Essential Amino Acid mg/g % of optimal

Tryptophan 7 65

Threonine 38 111

Isoleucine 36 128

Leucine 123 186

Lysine 28 49

Methionine+Cystine 39 156

Phenylalanine+Tyrosine 90 143

Valine 51 145

Histidine 30 160

Amino Acid Score: 49

>

> >>>

> From: " Jeff Novick " <jnovick@p...>

> Date: Wed Oct 20, 2004 12:02 pm

> Better yet, check the USDA Database SR 16 (the most current) is

online

> and we can seacrh any food and see the latest analysis including the

> EAA content. Take my challange, put in any one whole plant food,

plug

> it in for 1500 calories and check the EAA content against either the

> US RDA, the WHO or the revised WHO, and you will see that in every

> cases not only does the food provide all EAAs, it will usually do it

> in at least 2-10x the recopmmended amounts, including, lysine,

> tryptophan and methionine.

> >>>

>

> As Al pointed out in a previous note, the low level of tryptophan in

> corn can cause pellagra when corn is consumed as the only staple.

The

> problem does not seem to be whether ALL the essential amino acids

are

> present, but whether they are present in the CORRECT proportion to

be

> used by the human body. This is explained in the IOM Report:

Dietary

> Reference Intakes for Energy, Carbohydrate, Fiber, Fat, Fatty Acids,

> Cholesterol, Protein, and Amino Acids (Macronutrients) (2002) p.

534.

> http://www.nap.edu/openbook/0309085373/html/534.html

>

> By using the USDA site, I found out that you would have to eat 1.7Kg

> of potatoes to get 1,500 calories and you would be getting only 32g

of

> protein. Since the RDA is about 75g of protein per day, you would

> need to eat about 4Kg of potatoes (8.8 lb and 3,530 calories) to get

> your minimum requirement of protein.

>

> Eating only potatoes, you will probably fill up before you can eat

> enough to meet your nutritional requirements and you will end up

with

> a deficiency disease of some type. The information for corn is also

> included below. Corn is somewhat more nutritious than potatoes, as

> far as protein is concerned.

>

> I also compared the amino acid profile in nutritiondata.com with the

> USDA site for 100g of yellow corn. Nutritiondata.com shows about 3

> times more protein. I hope that the USDA data is more reliable.

>

> Tony.

>

> ============

> Corn, Pellagra, and Niacin:

> http://www.wholegrain.umn.edu/grains/corn.htm

>

>

>

> http://www.nutritiondata.com/facts-001-02s04dz.html

>

> http://www.nal.usda.gov/fnic/foodcomp/cgi-bin/list_nut_edit.pl

>

> Potatoes, boiled, cooked in skin, flesh, without salt

> NDB No: 11365

>

> 1724 grams of edible portion

> Energy kcal 1500

> Protein 32.24g

> Total lipid (fat) 1.72g

>

>

> Amino acids

> Tryptophan 0.500g

> Threonine 1.172g

> Isoleucine 1.310g

> Leucine 1.931g

> etc.

>

> ====

>

> Corn, sweet, yellow, frozen, kernels cut off cob, unprepared

> NDB No: 11178

>

> 1704 grams of edible portion

> Energy kcal 1500

> Protein 51.46g

> Total lipid (fat) 13.12g

>

> Amino acids

> Tryptophan 0.358g

> Threonine 2.062g

> Isoleucine 2.062g

> Leucine 5.555g