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>>>

From: " uptownguy34 " <uptownguy34@y...>

Date: Mon Oct 25, 2004 5:53 pm

Subject: What is extreme CR?

>>>

There is a series of three papers by Vitousek, et. al, from the

department of psychology, University of Hawaii, that portray caloric

restriction as an anorexic lifestyle called the " CR syndrome " . The

authors say that Walford put a positive spin on food deprivation and

understated the degree of hunger and deprivation in the Biosphere.

The authors even used some of the postings on the

calorierestriction.org web site as references to document the reduced

libido and other physical problems of CR practitioners. According to

the author, " To eating disorder (ED) specialists, severe caloric

restriction (CR) is a symptomatic behaviour. When sustained for years,

it imposes grave consequences on the few troubled people who persist. "

What can we learn from this? 1) What you post can be used against you

in unexpected ways. 2) CR is viewed as something abnormal practiced by

people with some mental compulsion or disorder.

Tony

===

European Eating Disorders Review, 12, Issue 5 (September/October 2004)

Caloric restriction for longevity: I. Paradigm, protocols

and physiological findings in animal research (p 279-299)

M. Vitousek, A. Gray, Kathleen M. Grubbs

Caloric restriction for longevity: II - The systematic neglect of

behavioural and psychological outcomes in animal research.

M. Vitousek, Frederic P. Manke, A. Gray, Maren N.

Vitousek, Eur. Eat. Disorders Rev. 12, 338–360 (2004)

The case for semi-starvation (p 275-278)

M. Vitousek, Published Online: 26 Aug 2004

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Here's a post by you using the same " subjective " method:

/message/15512

To further elaborate: My own opinion is that a BMI under 18 presents a

slippery slope. Or a daily calorie count under 1000 is cause for great

alarm (Walford warned against eating less than 1000 cal a day). And in some

cases, eating over 1000 cal could still be much too little, esp if losing

too much weight and body fat/mass. You could wind up losing heart muscle and

other vitals.

As Citpeks has posted, we need a certain % of bodyfat for proper functioning

of the brain and for reserve in case we DO get sick. No reserves could

equal death if some accident or illness strikes.

We have no way of knowing how many CRONIES have eating disorders. But even

if only 2% as you suggest, that's too many. Perhaps our many warnings on

this list is keeping the number from going higher.

_____________________________

Francesca wrote:

The " know it when I see it " argument is used universally. When you watch TV

and see starving children it's pretty obvious they're starving; when the doc

(or anyone) says: " Oh my you've lost too much weight " etc. So YOU may think

it subjective, but the rest of the world is very comfortable with it.

See my yesterday's post about vegetarianism and cutting out a whole food

group. I addressed that argument that principles, ethics and allergies are

not extremism IMO.

I agree with Apricot that you seem to be toying with us and trying to

provoke us.

on 10/26/2004 1:45 AM, ONeill at uptownguy34@... wrote:

> Hi, Francesca--

>

> The " I-know-it-when-I-see-it " argument makes me nervous. It seems a bit too

> subjective.

>

> If you see a six-foot tall male " weighing 115 pounds or so, " is that a cutoff

> point? That's a BMI roughly of 15.63. On the other hand, do you really mean " a

> very thin man " ? That seems a bit subjective also. For example, I've been

> called extremely thin by some of my friends, and one has even expressed shock

> at my thinness. However, I have a BMI above 19, and my doctor thinks I'm " in

> really good shape. " So when you say, " I know it when I see it, " I'm a bit

> skeptical.

>

> Is extreme CR something that has resulted in an eating disorder? I'm referring

> to your examples of bulimia and anorexia. These conditions have specific

> criteria and can be diagnosed. I would think they are different from CR per

> se, and I also imagine that 99 percent of us do not have an eating disorder.

> Though I may be wrong: it may be as low as 98 percent.

>

> I'm really not sure about your example of cutting out a whole food group.

> Vegetarians obviously come to mind. Also, many people on SAD have cut out at

> least 1 food group without thinking about it as such, just because of personal

> taste. My mother, for example, can't stand most dairy products, but she's not

> lactose intolerant. She will consume them from time to time, but she gets any

> dairy at all only on rare occasions. She's quite old and has no problems of

> bone mass.

>

> I suppose my real problem with the whole question is that since we tend to

> insist more on scientific judgments and criteria, the question of " extreme CR "

> seems a bit too undefined--unless there is a common definition I'm simply

> unaware of.

>

>

>

>

> Francesca Skelton <fskelton@...> wrote:

> Here's some of my definitions of " extremism " YMMV:

>

> Six foot tall males weighing 115 pds or so.

>

> Not being able to go on a family vacation without preparing/taking coolers

> and coolers of CRONIE food.

>

> Sampling high calorie/rich foods, then spitting out (the beginnings of

> bulemia?). Done in secret, and hiding from family/friends.

>

> Any extreme cutting of calories/behavior leading to anorexia/bulemia or an

> eating disorder.

>

> CRON becoming the entire " raison d'etre " for existing rather than doing CRON

> to exist better/longer. Your entire life revolving around all things CRON.

>

> Cutting out an entire food group such as all whole grains (unless you're

> allergic) extreme.

>

> Just a few real life examples. Like porn: I know it when I see it.

>

> As mentioned, I could be wrong. In 100 years or so we'll find out

> .....unless some of us start dropping like flies before that........

>

>

>

>

> on 10/25/2004 5:53 PM, uptownguy34 at uptownguy34@... wrote:

>

>>

>> People often refer to " extremism " on this list, and " extreme CR "

>> or " extreme CRON " is typically condemned. Still, I'm not sure what

>> this means.

>>

>> Is getting a very low level of calories " extreme CR " ? If so, where's

>> the cutoff point? Would it be 1,500 for men? 1,000 for women?

>> Wouldn't it have to depend on your height and weight, along with the

>> rate at which you typically lose weight?

>>

>> Is eliminating a whole food group " extreme CR " ? If so, then are all

>> vegans and vegetarians on this list doing " extreme CR " ? Do we really

>> want to label vegetarians " extremists " ? I wouldn't. (Note that I

>> myself will eat almost anything, with the exception of things I

>> simply can't stomach or products containing trans-fats or too much

>> saturated fat. The quantity of " borderline " items I consume depends

>> on my assessment of how detrimental they could be to my health.)

>> Besides, CR (or CRON, if you prefer) is not, in my understanding of

>> it, a prescriptive diet. You create your own diet on the basis of

>> principles of optimal or at least adequate nutrition, and you lower

>> your calorie intake by an amount you determine. Naturally, it's best

>> not to give your body a shock by cutting your calories by 50 percent

>> overnight.

>>

>> Is having a very low BMI an automatic determiner of " extreme CR " ?

>> Well, I can think of one individual--who shall remain unnamed--who

>> has, at times, been used on this list as an example of extremism and

>> who does indeed have a very low BMI. But what is someone who begins

>> CR with a low BMI to do, especially if that person truly believes

>> that CR will lead to greater health and longevity? Just give up on

>> the idea entirely, because CR will lead to an even lower BMI? That

>> doesn't seem a reasonable recommendation.

>>

>> Is pushing CR to the point of doing damage to one's health what you

>> would call " extreme CR " ? That sounds more reasonable, but one

>> plausible explanation is that anyone who does so has simply

>> practiced CR badly and may since have recognized the error of his or

>> her ways. It's a tricky thing, after all. Why else would there be so

>> much debate about the benefits of fish, grains, and ALA, just to

>> cite a few examples, if " optimal nutrition " were a clear-cut issue?

>> It is not. The general outlines are more or less clear, but much

>> remains to be learned, as we all know. Therefore, it is absolutely

>> understandable that one may do damage to one's health in the process

>> of doing CR--even without intending to push things to extremes. I am

>> aware of a number of instances of this, and it's something that all

>> CR novices should be aware of.

>>

>> I suppose I might consider the last point to be an example of

>> extreme CR if an individual pushed things to the point of serious

>> health damage and stubbornly refused to change. Still, it might be

>> more accurate to refer to such practices as " eating disorders " or,

>> as the case may be, " anorexia. "

>>

>> So what do you think? Personally, I wonder whether my own CR would

>> be considered " extreme " by some on your list--not that I would feel

>> insulted, mind you.

>>

>> I'll be interested to read people's responses to this topic.

>>

>>

>

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Hi all,

How about this for a positive CR spin?

Cheers, Al Pater.

NEWS

Ultra-low-calorie diet high on promise

Sunday, October 24, 2004

By MARY JO LAYTON

STAFF WRITER

Mark Schneider believes he's found what countless baby boomers crave:

the secret to living past 100.

It's not running marathons or injections of anti-aging hormones.

Instead, Schneider says the key to longevity is following a diet

that's so low in calories that Super-Size America would consider it

starvation.

The 52-year-old South Jersey man is convinced that extreme calorie

restriction, or CR as it's known to hard-core followers, will spare

him the destiny of millions of his aging brethren: paunch, heart

disease or cancer, a predictable demise at 75 or so.

" I'm doing everything possible to prolong life. Baby boomers don't

ever want to die,'' the wafer-thin Schneider said as he leaped up

from a round of push-ups at a Haddonfield gym.

After two years on the diet, the 5-foot-10 former college

administrator weighs 135 pounds - 20 less than he did in high school.

He says he feels terrific, but his doctor and his personal trainer

say he's too thin. His cheeks are gaunt. When he dipped to 130

pounds, his wife told him he looked like a concentration-camp

survivor and made him gain back a few.

The CR lifestyle - reducing normal calorie intake 30 percent below

recommended levels - is not about losing the saddlebags or Heineken

gut. It's not another Atkins or South Beach. It is not, its followers

say, anorexia. It's a quest for uber-health, where every calorie,

every nutrient, every pound is methodically tracked in an attempt to

gain a few decades. Give up pizza. Live past 100.

Near-starvation diets have radically extended the lives of mice and

other lab creatures in research studies. So why not humans? That's

the $20 million question, the cost of a study sponsored by the

National Institutes of Health, the first randomized controlled trials

in humans.

" The general premise of CR studies is that calorie restriction delays

biological aging, and that is the underlying reason for why disease

incidence goes down,'' said , a researcher at Tufts

University School of Medicine in Boston, one of the three sites in

the nation for the study. " This is what happens in animals, at least. "

In a nation obsessed with turning back the clock, where billions are

spent on Botox, plastic surgery and anti-wrinkle creams, the CR

movement isn't exactly a national craze. Draconian diets are a tough

sell in a population that struggles to stay on Weight Watchers or to

take a brisk walk for 30 minutes a day.

" It's pretty fringe, I gotta tell you,'' said Dr. Lebowitz, a

cardiologist and director of complementary medicine at Englewood

Hospital and Medical Center.

However, the principles of CR are worthy of further scrutiny,

especially when two-thirds of Americans are overweight, said

Lebowitz, who is also a professor at Columbia College of Physicians

and Surgeons.

" From a genetic standpoint, we've evolved to withstand famine,'' he

said. " In times of plenty, we pack it on and pack it on as stored fat

so that we would survive times of scarcity. What we have now, though,

is a disaster of unparalleled proportions.''

In America, 64 percent of adults are overweight, and the consequences

of obesity are quickly catching up to tobacco as the leading cause of

preventable death. The percentage of overweight children has doubled

to 15 percent in the last 20 years.

First studied in the 1930s, calorie restriction has been proven to

double the life of mice, guppies and spiders. It also has extended

the lives of test monkeys.

The movement picked up momentum with the publication in 2000 of " The

120-Year Diet,'' a name coined by UCLA researcher and gerontologist

Roy Walford, who said people could reach extreme longevity if they

followed the extreme diet.

Scientists aren't exactly sure how CR works, but it appears to effect

certain biochemical changes. By cutting calorie consumption to 20 or

30 percent below normal USDA recommendations - below the levels of

most weight-loss diets - the body may reduce levels of free radicals,

those pesky atoms or molecules that cause aging and disease. Some

scientists believe that mild starvation toughens the cells, turning

them into battle-scarred warriors better trained to deflect illness.

Preliminary research has shown that CR followers are reducing their

risk of stroke, heart attack and Type II diabetes, common killers

that rob millions of Americans of the golden years.

For the average man, the diet calls for eating 1,500 to 1,700

calories a day. Federal guidelines suggest men get between 2,000 and

2,800 calories a day.

For the typical woman, following the CR diet means slashing of intake

to 1,100 or 1,300 from the 1,600 to 2,200 the government recommends.

Some who follow the diet are known to eat 4 to 6 pounds of fruit and

vegetables a day. Foods have to offer a big nutritional bang for a

low number of calories: sardines, blueberries, protein powders.

The mountains of fiber consumed, the aversion to processed, fat-laden

foods, along with a regimen of supplements: It all seems to work

miracles, said Luigi Fontana, one of the lead investigators of a

study published in April at the Washington University School of

Medicine in St. Louis.

" We have data to show that life expectancy is increased in people who

are on the calorie-restricted diets,'' Fontana said.

The study found that those who followed the diet had lower blood

pressure, lower levels of cholesterol and higher levels of " good "

cholesterol.

" Some of these people have the blood pressure of 15-year-olds,''

Fontana said.

Yogurt and sardines

Mark Schneider sits in his tidy kitchen eating slices of a Gala

apple, then a banana and a cup of light yogurt - the lunch he eats

most days. For variety, he digs into sardines, loaded with heart-

healthy Omega 3's.

He says he eats 1,500 to 1,800 calories daily. He also takes 13 pills

each day, including aspirin, calcium supplements, vitamin E and C and

zinc. They're all washed down with a glass of OJ that, to save 80

calories, he's diluted with water.

The supplements are why the CR lifestyle is also known as CRON:

Calorie Restriction and Optimal Nutrition.

" It's not just about cutting calories by eating half a hamburger or

half an order of fries,'' Fontana said. All of the CR followers he

studied had met 100 percent of the required daily allowances of

various vitamins and minerals - a claim few Americans can make.

The Calorie Restriction Society, a California-based group that

supports CR research, has about 2,000 members looking for a shot to

live as long as Methuselah. Its Web site, www.calorierestriction.org,

is filled with recipes such as " Pastafree Veggie Pastalike Dish, " or

Super Anti-Ox Juice, a blend of blueberries and pomegranate juice.

Sweet tooth calling? How about " Death by Banana,'' a low-fat

imitation of the sinful chocolate concoction.

Warren , the society's spokesman, said he embraced the CR

lifestyle in the hope of gaining another 20 or 30 years. At 5-foot-6

and 115 pounds, he believes his thinness doesn't make him weak.

Rather, it is his armor to ward off aging and the cancers that killed

his parents in their 50s.

" I could easily lose another 10 or 15 pounds,'' he said. " I look like

skin and bones, which is exactly how I want to look.''

Unlike regular weight-loss diets, where calorie consumption should

rise after a goal is reached, CR dieters do not stop following their

plan. They say there is a point where, even on a severe diet, a

person will no longer lose weight. The body adapts, becoming very

energy-efficient and requiring far fewer calories.

" The more I read about CR, the more it made sense to me,'' said

Schneider, who has dropped from 157 to 135 in the past two

years. " You're putting less strain on your bones, your organs, your

entire body if you weigh less. "

As he closes in on his mid-50s, though, his pursuit of longevity is

clearly in overdrive as he grimaces when lifting weights or turns

down two slices of pizza - a lunch he used to love - for sardines.

Schneider offers an automobile analogy to explain his decision to

stick to the diet: " If you were told you were only going to have one

car your entire life, you'd take great care of it, right? You'd be

damned sure you changed the oil.''

He can't remember his last cold. In his pre-CR days, he could count

on one major bout a year.

Most dinners are fish or chicken and veggies. He will have a steak

when he's in the mood, he said. He enjoys a glass of wine a night

with dinner, usually red because it contains high amounts of

Resveratrol, which may have anti-aging properties.

Decadence is measured and meager; a teaspoon of peanut butter is a

splurge. There are no regrettable encounters with Ben and Jerry's.

When Schneider eats pistachios, he counts out 35 and stops.

" I'm not an extremist,'' he insisted.

In the cold calculations of science, Schneider is indeed much

healthier than most Americans.

His body-mass index (BMI), a measurement to determine if a person is

at a healthy weight, indicates that Schneider's score is 19.4, within

the normal range. A score of 25 to under 30 is considered overweight;

30 and above spells obesity. Overweight people are more likely to

develop cardiovascular disease, and the obese are five times as

likely to die of heart disease.

In fact, Schneider's BMI makes him " one of the healthiest in terms of

longevity,'' said Lebowitz.

Stalling the clock

When she lost nearly 30 pounds following the diet, April got

glares from friends who worried that her 108-pound, 5-foot-2 body was

too thin. The guy at the wine store near her South Jersey apartment

told her not to lose another pound.

The egg-white omelets for breakfast, the occasional 800-calorie days,

the end of pasta dinners are helping her meet the rigors of a

lifestyle she believes will stall the clock.

Pure vanity made convert to CR.

" I was starting to see tiny little lines around my eyes,'' she

said. " I wasn't able to party all night and look dewy and fabulous

the next day. I didn't want to be one of these women who has to wear

makeup.''

, 30, a union organizer who helped nurses at Bayonne Hospital

form their first bargaining unit, says she has more energy now. She

awakens before dawn and logs countless hours on the New Jersey

Turnpike, driving to various hospitals. She works many nights until 9

p.m., then meets friends in Philadelphia.

Still, she has heard countless criticisms of the diet. enjoys a

variety of low-calorie meals, but some in the world of CR eat the

same meal every day, or insist only on organics such as kale salad.

Some won't ever dine out. A few have lost their libido.

" I do hear from people, 'Don't get anorexic on us,'Ÿ " said.

Her rebuttal is well rehearsed. " What we're doing actually works,''

she tells them. " It's common sense. It's healthy and it's time-

tested.''

In some cases, though, extreme dieting can lead to eating disorders

such as anorexia. It can cause mood changes, loss of energy, binge

eating or ritualistic behavior - counting bites or hoarding non-food

items, said Kraus, a clinical dietitian at Hackensack

University Medical Center.

However, Kraus makes a distinction between most of the folks on CR

and anorexics. The CR dieters are trying to optimize their health,

she said, while anorexics stop eating as a form of self-punishment.

But investigators at the American Federation for Aging Research

questioned the diet.

" A calorie-restricted diet will produce weight loss, to the point

that most adherents appear ill,'' they said. Federation researchers

say CR followers are generally cold and always hungry. Because they

lose so much body fat, they lose cushions that protect their bones,

so that sitting or walking can become painful. And it's simply not

sustainable for most people.

" Very few people can lose 30 percent of their body weight and keep it

off for any duration,'' said , a member of the

foundation and a gerontologist at the University of Michigan.

Fontana, the St. Louis researcher, found none of the followers seemed

to be suffering from eating disorders. However, it's not a lifestyle

he would advocate for most. " People have to eat less and better to

avoid these diseases that make them die prematurely. But I don't

suggest that people do severe calorie restriction unless supervised

by an expert,'' Fontana said.

, meanwhile, is preparing for a conference of the Calorie

Restriction Society next month in South Carolina. She also has

persuaded her mother to try the diet.

" She sees the energy level I have, how healthy I look,'' she said.

envisions midlife and old age as she lives today: a road

warrior, fighting for the rights of workers - the hip, wise chick in

perfect health.

" It will take more than 70 years to make the world a better place,''

she said. " I need more time.''

E-mail: layton@...

> >

> >>

> >> People often refer to " extremism " on this list, and " extreme CR "

> >> or " extreme CRON " is typically condemned. Still, I'm not sure

what

> >> this means.

> >>

> >> Is getting a very low level of calories " extreme CR " ? If so,

where's

> >> the cutoff point? Would it be 1,500 for men? 1,000 for women?

> >> Wouldn't it have to depend on your height and weight, along with

the

> >> rate at which you typically lose weight?

> >>

> >> Is eliminating a whole food group " extreme CR " ? If so, then are

all

> >> vegans and vegetarians on this list doing " extreme CR " ? Do we

really

> >> want to label vegetarians " extremists " ? I wouldn't. (Note that I

> >> myself will eat almost anything, with the exception of things I

> >> simply can't stomach or products containing trans-fats or too

much

> >> saturated fat. The quantity of " borderline " items I consume

depends

> >> on my assessment of how detrimental they could be to my health.)

> >> Besides, CR (or CRON, if you prefer) is not, in my understanding

of

> >> it, a prescriptive diet. You create your own diet on the basis of

> >> principles of optimal or at least adequate nutrition, and you

lower

> >> your calorie intake by an amount you determine. Naturally, it's

best

> >> not to give your body a shock by cutting your calories by 50

percent

> >> overnight.

> >>

> >> Is having a very low BMI an automatic determiner of " extreme CR " ?

> >> Well, I can think of one individual--who shall remain unnamed--

who

> >> has, at times, been used on this list as an example of extremism

and

> >> who does indeed have a very low BMI. But what is someone who

begins

> >> CR with a low BMI to do, especially if that person truly believes

> >> that CR will lead to greater health and longevity? Just give up

on

> >> the idea entirely, because CR will lead to an even lower BMI?

That

> >> doesn't seem a reasonable recommendation.

> >>

> >> Is pushing CR to the point of doing damage to one's health what

you

> >> would call " extreme CR " ? That sounds more reasonable, but one

> >> plausible explanation is that anyone who does so has simply

> >> practiced CR badly and may since have recognized the error of

his or

> >> her ways. It's a tricky thing, after all. Why else would there

be so

> >> much debate about the benefits of fish, grains, and ALA, just to

> >> cite a few examples, if " optimal nutrition " were a clear-cut

issue?

> >> It is not. The general outlines are more or less clear, but much

> >> remains to be learned, as we all know. Therefore, it is

absolutely

> >> understandable that one may do damage to one's health in the

process

> >> of doing CR--even without intending to push things to extremes.

I am

> >> aware of a number of instances of this, and it's something that

all

> >> CR novices should be aware of.

> >>

> >> I suppose I might consider the last point to be an example of

> >> extreme CR if an individual pushed things to the point of serious

> >> health damage and stubbornly refused to change. Still, it might

be

> >> more accurate to refer to such practices as " eating disorders "

or,

> >> as the case may be, " anorexia. "

> >>

> >> So what do you think? Personally, I wonder whether my own CR

would

> >> be considered " extreme " by some on your list--not that I would

feel

> >> insulted, mind you.

> >>

> >> I'll be interested to read people's responses to this topic.

> >>

> >>

> >

>

>

>

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