Re: Metformin

[Guest guest]

Here's a Q & A that came to me via VRP's " Ask the Doctor " section that relates to

the discussion on Metformin:

I posted this question in the sci-le web forum:I practice CR and have a fasting

insulin reading of <1 (1.5-12.0 reference range). Would taking Metformin along

with practicing CR be good, bad, or unnecessary?

Is there a test which would help to answer this question?Steve , MD,

responded saying this: Its not uncommon to see thin well exercised young people

with fasting insulins lower than reference, and yet also good glucose control

(you didnt give us your fasting glucose, but I assume its good)

So far as metformin goes, it would be a very dumb idea to take it with blood

glucoses anywhere near the lower end of the range. Your brain works on glucose,

and even in starvation needs 50% of its calories as such. Do you want to

chronically starve it of its main energy source?

We dont have the data for metformin and life span extension, even with rodents.

Its a good hypothesis, but a good hypothesis for further testing. It would be a

dumb thing to bet your life on if you don't have diabetes and have no other

reason to lower your glucose.

Metformin is not a totally benign drug. Depending on dose it has caused fatal

liver damage.

My response: It seems to me that chronically high insulin levels, a

characteristic of people who are insulin resistant, would be a greater concern.

Insulin drives glucose into the cells (mainly muscle cells) and out of the blood

and brain. Metformin improves the sensitivity of cells to insulin, thereby

lowering insulin and increasing brain glucose levels. It should be fairly easy

for anyone who carefully monitors himself--a typical sci-le devotee--to tell if

he has signs of hypoglycemia (headache, excessive perspiration, irritability,

and trembling).

I understand that metformin is contraindicated in people who are hypocaloric or

undernourished. Practiced diligently, CR diets are not starvation diets nor are

they nutritionally sub-par. As far as potential liver damage from using

metformin, it seems to me that elevated ALT and AST readings would provide a

sufficient warning.

What is your opinion on the efficacy of metformin (or AGE Block) in a

calorie-restricted person, who shows good insulin control?

Thank you for your

time!http://groups.google.com/groups?dq= & hl=en & lr= & ie=UTF-8 & safe=off & th=a1a0beba\

0372f9f7

Dear Mr. Kobzina,

Steve is a bright guy, but this is one instance where I disagree with him

on a number of issues.

Taking Metformin will not lower your blood glucose to hypoglycemic levels, as

Dr. implied. It enables your body to utilize glucose and insulin more

efficiently.

Taking Metformin may enhance the efficacy of caloric restriction, as well as

allowing you to " fudge " a little if you are so inclined.

Dr. states correctly that we don't have data for life span extension even

in rodents with Metformin. However, we do have data from Dilman showing

extension of maximum lifespan in rodents with Phenformin, an analog of

Metformin. Metformin is safer and more effective than Phenformin, so I feel

safe in assuming that if lifespan studies were performed with Metformin, it

would equal or exceed the life extending effects of Phenformin.

I don't know where the myth about liver damage with Metformin originated. I

have not seen any studies that indicate that it is in any way hepatotoxic (I may

have missed something, but I've been looking).

Metformin has been implicated in deaths due to lactic acidosis, in severe

diabetics with impaired kidney function. For those with normal kidneys,

Metformin is extremely safe. I believe that Metformin can be safely and

beneficially taken by those with impaired kidney function, as long as the dosage

is reduced and blood lactic acid is closely monitored.

The most common adverse side effects of Metformin are decreased absorption of

Vitamin B12, and a perhaps related increase in serum Homocysteine levels. These

adverse effects can be overcome by taking sublingual or intramuscular B12, and

supplemental Betaine (see my article on this subject in the forthcoming June,

2003 issue of Vitamin Research News--www.vrp.com).

I have previously stated that I believe the benefits of caloric restriction are

due to the maintenance of low levels of glucose and insulin--exactly the effects

of Metformin. I think Metformin or AGE-Block (Aminoguanidine-equivalent plus

Carnosine) can only enhance the benefits of a calorically restricted diet.

As you proposed, the symptoms of hypoglycemia are pretty easy to appreciate for

anyone who is in tune with their body. And as I stated above, Metformin use

does not result in hypoglycemia.

Ward Dean, M.D.

[Guest guest]

Hello [i posted this message to Rejuvenation too]:

Has anyone on this list tried Ginseng Berry Extract for insulin

resistance? I'm sure that many of you are aware of the research

findings from the study published a year ago:

" An extract from the ginseng berry shows

real promise in treating diabetes and obesity, reports a research team

from the University of Chicago's Tang Center for Herbal Medicine

Research. In the June 2002 issue of the journal Diabetes, they show that

the extract completely normalized blood glucose levels, improved

sensitivity to insulin, lowered cholesterol levels, and decreased weight

by reducing appetite and increasing activity levels in mice bred to

develop diabetes. "

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2002/05/020524073803.htm

I have found several anecdotal bits of information of people taking the

extract of ginseng berry orally with very good results in terms of both

reduced insulin resistance and weight loss (with energy increase and

appetite suppression). I found several sources on the Internet

selling the extract in powder and capsules, though it is not yet widely

available. I just placed an order for 30gm of 85% extract

powder. I am not sure of the dose, but another source, selling 80%

extract powder in seemingly small capsules (size or weight not specified,

but " 80%+ Ginsenoside Chinese Ginseng

Berry Extract - 20mg " specified) and they set the dose at 2

capsules per day and the capsules contain fillers.

Does anyone know what the dose should be? Does anyone have

any experience with it? I didn't reference these sources as

not to break the rule on commercial info on this list and I have no

interest in any of them, of course. If anyone is interested to

know, email me separately.

Finally, I have a glucose meter. Does anyone have a suggestion of

the best way to test the results?

Thanks

At 08:24 PM 5/26/2003 -0500, Ward Dean, M.D. wrote:

Here's a Q & A that came to

me via VRP's " Ask the Doctor " section that relates to the

discussion on Metformin:

I posted this question in the sci-le web forum:I practice CR and have a

fasting insulin reading of <1 (1.5-12.0 reference range). Would taking

Metformin along with practicing CR be good, bad, or unnecessary?

Is there a test which would help to answer this question?Steve ,

MD, responded saying this: Its not uncommon to see thin well exercised

young people with fasting insulins lower than reference, and yet also

good glucose control (you didnt give us your fasting glucose, but I

assume its good)

So far as metformin goes, it would be a very dumb idea to take it with

blood glucoses anywhere near the lower end of the range. Your brain works

on glucose, and even in starvation needs 50% of its calories as such. Do

you want to chronically starve it of its main energy source?

We dont have the data for metformin and life span extension, even with

rodents. Its a good hypothesis, but a good hypothesis for further

testing. It would be a dumb thing to bet your life on if you don't have

diabetes and have no other reason to lower your glucose.

Metformin is not a totally benign drug. Depending on dose it has caused

fatal liver damage.

My response: It seems to me that chronically high insulin levels, a

characteristic of people who are insulin resistant, would be a greater

concern. Insulin drives glucose into the cells (mainly muscle cells) and

out of the blood and brain. Metformin improves the sensitivity of cells

to insulin, thereby lowering insulin and increasing brain glucose levels.

It should be fairly easy for anyone who carefully monitors himself--a

typical sci-le devotee--to tell if he has signs of hypoglycemia

(headache, excessive perspiration, irritability, and trembling).

I understand that metformin is contraindicated in people who are

hypocaloric or undernourished. Practiced diligently, CR diets are

not starvation diets nor are they nutritionally sub-par. As far as

potential liver damage from using metformin, it seems to me that elevated

ALT and AST readings would provide a sufficient warning.

What is your opinion on the efficacy of metformin (or AGE Block) in a

calorie-restricted person, who shows good insulin control?

Thank you for your

time!http://groups.google.com/groups?dq== & hl==en & lr== & ie==UTF-8 & safe==off & th=¡a0beba0372f9f7

Dear Mr. Kobzina,

Steve is a bright guy, but this is one instance where I disagree

with him on a number of issues.

Taking Metformin will not lower your blood glucose to hypoglycemic

levels, as Dr. implied. It enables your body to utilize

glucose and insulin more efficiently.

Taking Metformin may enhance the efficacy of caloric restriction, as well

as allowing you to " fudge " a little if you are so

inclined.

Dr. states correctly that we don't have data for life span

extension even in rodents with Metformin. However, we do have data

from Dilman showing extension of maximum lifespan in rodents with

Phenformin, an analog of Metformin. Metformin is safer and more

effective than Phenformin, so I feel safe in assuming that if lifespan

studies were performed with Metformin, it would equal or exceed the life

extending effects of Phenformin.

I don't know where the myth about liver damage with Metformin

originated. I have not seen any studies that indicate that it is in

any way hepatotoxic (I may have missed something, but I've been

looking).

Metformin has been implicated in deaths due to lactic acidosis, in severe

diabetics with impaired kidney function. For those with normal

kidneys, Metformin is extremely safe. I believe that Metformin can

be safely and beneficially taken by those with impaired kidney function,

as long as the dosage is reduced and blood lactic acid is closely

monitored.

The most common adverse side effects of Metformin are decreased

absorption of Vitamin B12, and a perhaps related increase in serum

Homocysteine levels. These adverse effects can be overcome by

taking sublingual or intramuscular B12, and supplemental Betaine (see my

article on this subject in the forthcoming June, 2003 issue of Vitamin

Research News--www.vrp.com).

I have previously stated that I believe the benefits of caloric

restriction are due to the maintenance of low levels of glucose and

insulin--exactly the effects of Metformin. I think Metformin or

AGE-Block (Aminoguanidine-equivalent plus Carnosine) can only enhance the

benefits of a calorically restricted diet.

As you proposed, the symptoms of hypoglycemia are pretty easy to

appreciate for anyone who is in tune with their body. And as I

stated above, Metformin use does not result in hypoglycemia.

Ward Dean, M.D.

[Guest guest]

Hello [i posted this message to Rejuvenation too]:

Has anyone on this list tried Ginseng Berry Extract for insulin

resistance? I'm sure that many of you are aware of the research findings

from the study published a year ago:

" An extract from the ginseng berry shows real promise in treating diabetes

and obesity, reports a research team from the University of Chicago's Tang

Center for Herbal Medicine Research. In the June 2002 issue of the journal

Diabetes, they show that the extract completely normalized blood glucose

levels, improved sensitivity to insulin, lowered cholesterol levels, and

decreased weight by reducing appetite and increasing activity levels in

mice bred to develop diabetes. "

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2002/05/020524073803.htm

I have found several anecdotal bits of information of people taking the

extract of ginseng berry orally with very good results in terms of both

reduced insulin resistance and weight loss (with energy increase and

appetite suppression). I found several sources on the Internet selling the

extract in powder and capsules, though it is not yet widely available. I

just placed an order for 30gm of 85% extract powder. I am not sure of the

dose, but another source, selling 80% extract powder in seemingly small

capsules (size or weight not specified, but " 80%+ Ginsenoside Chinese

Ginseng Berry Extract - 20mg " specified) and they set the dose at 2

capsules per day and the capsules contain fillers.

Does anyone know what the dose should be? Does anyone have any experience

with it? I didn't reference these sources as not to break the rule on

commercial info on this list and I have no interest in any of them, of

course. If anyone is interested to know, email me separately.

Finally, I have a glucose meter. Does anyone have a suggestion of the best

way to test the results?

Thanks

At 08:24 PM 5/26/2003 -0500, Ward Dean, M.D. wrote:

>Here's a Q & A that came to me via VRP's " Ask the Doctor " section that

>relates to the discussion on Metformin:

>

>

>I posted this question in the sci-le web forum:I practice CR and have a

>fasting insulin reading of <1 (1.5-12.0 reference range). Would taking

>Metformin along with practicing CR be good, bad, or unnecessary?

>

>Is there a test which would help to answer this question?Steve , MD,

>responded saying this: Its not uncommon to see thin well exercised young

>people with fasting insulins lower than reference, and yet also good

>glucose control (you didnt give us your fasting glucose, but I assume its

>good)

>

>So far as metformin goes, it would be a very dumb idea to take it with

>blood glucoses anywhere near the lower end of the range. Your brain works

>on glucose, and even in starvation needs 50% of its calories as such. Do

>you want to chronically starve it of its main energy source?

>

>We dont have the data for metformin and life span extension, even with

>rodents. Its a good hypothesis, but a good hypothesis for further testing.

>It would be a dumb thing to bet your life on if you don't have diabetes

>and have no other reason to lower your glucose.

>

>Metformin is not a totally benign drug. Depending on dose it has caused

>fatal liver damage.

>

>My response: It seems to me that chronically high insulin levels, a

>characteristic of people who are insulin resistant, would be a greater

>concern. Insulin drives glucose into the cells (mainly muscle cells) and

>out of the blood and brain. Metformin improves the sensitivity of cells to

>insulin, thereby lowering insulin and increasing brain glucose levels. It

>should be fairly easy for anyone who carefully monitors himself--a typical

>sci-le devotee--to tell if he has signs of hypoglycemia (headache,

>excessive perspiration, irritability, and trembling).

>

>I understand that metformin is contraindicated in people who are

>hypocaloric or undernourished. Practiced diligently, CR diets are not

>starvation diets nor are they nutritionally sub-par. As far as potential

>liver damage from using metformin, it seems to me that elevated ALT and

>AST readings would provide a sufficient warning.

>

>What is your opinion on the efficacy of metformin (or AGE Block) in a

>calorie-restricted person, who shows good insulin control?

>

>Thank you for your

>time!<http://groups.google.com/groups?dq== & hl==en & lr== & ie==UTF-8 & safe==off & th=¡\

a0beba0372f9f7>http://groups.google.com/groups?dq== & hl==en & lr== & ie==UTF-8 & safe==\

off & th=¡a0beba0372f9f7

>

>Dear Mr. Kobzina,

>

>Steve is a bright guy, but this is one instance where I disagree

>with him on a number of issues.

>

>Taking Metformin will not lower your blood glucose to hypoglycemic levels,

>as Dr. implied. It enables your body to utilize glucose and

>insulin more efficiently.

>

>Taking Metformin may enhance the efficacy of caloric restriction, as well

>as allowing you to " fudge " a little if you are so inclined.

>

>Dr. states correctly that we don't have data for life span

>extension even in rodents with Metformin. However, we do have data from

>Dilman showing extension of maximum lifespan in rodents with Phenformin,

>an analog of Metformin. Metformin is safer and more effective than

>Phenformin, so I feel safe in assuming that if lifespan studies were

>performed with Metformin, it would equal or exceed the life extending

>effects of Phenformin.

>

>I don't know where the myth about liver damage with Metformin

>originated. I have not seen any studies that indicate that it is in any

>way hepatotoxic (I may have missed something, but I've been looking).

>

>Metformin has been implicated in deaths due to lactic acidosis, in severe

>diabetics with impaired kidney function. For those with normal kidneys,

>Metformin is extremely safe. I believe that Metformin can be safely and

>beneficially taken by those with impaired kidney function, as long as the

>dosage is reduced and blood lactic acid is closely monitored.

>

>The most common adverse side effects of Metformin are decreased absorption

>of Vitamin B12, and a perhaps related increase in serum Homocysteine

>levels. These adverse effects can be overcome by taking sublingual or

>intramuscular B12, and supplemental Betaine (see my article on this

>subject in the forthcoming June, 2003 issue of Vitamin Research

>News--www.vrp.com).

>

>I have previously stated that I believe the benefits of caloric

>restriction are due to the maintenance of low levels of glucose and

>insulin--exactly the effects of Metformin. I think Metformin or AGE-Block

>(Aminoguanidine-equivalent plus Carnosine) can only enhance the benefits

>of a calorically restricted diet.

>

>As you proposed, the symptoms of hypoglycemia are pretty easy to

>appreciate for anyone who is in tune with their body. And as I stated

>above, Metformin use does not result in hypoglycemia.

>

>Ward Dean, M.D.

[Guest guest]

Effect of metformin are speculative, at this point, I think, for life

extension. That said, several folks I know of do take low doses, as

advised by some life extension " experts. "

On Tue, 23 Nov 2004 18:22:58 -0000, guy_bliss2001

<guy_bliss2001@...> wrote:

>

>

> Since I've returned to the CR fold recently, I noticed that the drug

> Metformin appears to produce the same biomarker effects as CR. Is

> anyone using Metformin out there?

>

> It occurs to me that it might jump-start my CR program, helping with

> weight loss (I have a bad tendency to lose muscle mass), and

> facilitating valuable changes sooner (my lipid profile places me in

> the high-risk category). It might also be possible to enjoy some of

> the benefits of more severe CR without the drawbacks, if used in

> conjunction with CR.

>

> Your practical experience with Metformin would be greatly appreciated.

>

> Tim

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Hi All,

For an update, here is a not pdf-available paper's abstract:

Rom J Intern Med. 2003;41(3):269-75.

Metformin in the treatment of obesity in subjects with normal glucose

tolerance.

Tankova T, Dakovska L, Kirilov G, Koev D.

... obese subjects with normal glucose tolerance. 26

subjects (16 females and 10 males), mean age 37.3+/-9.7 years and

mean BMI

32.3+/-9.1kg/m2 were treated with individual hypocaloric diet and

metformin

at a

mean dose of 2.38+/-0.32g for six months. Insulin secretion was

studied

during

OGTT; insulin resistance was assessed by the HOMA index. We have

found a

reduction of 3.24% in body weight, which was accompanied by a

decrease in

body

fat mass (by 7.45%, p<0.01) and in waist circumference (p<0.01).

Insulin

resistance decreased by 14.5% (p=0.02) after metformin. There was a

significant

decrease in the AUC for the total (by 17.6%, from 6999+/-1453 to

5763+/-1511mU/L.120min, p<0.01) and stimulated insulin secretion (by

17.1%,

from

4215+/-1011 to 3495+/-925mU/L.120min, p=0.01) during OGTT after six-

month

treatment with metformin. In conclusion, the results from the present

study

demonstrate that metformin contributes to a reduction in body weight,

body

fat

mass and waist circumference, improves insulin sensitivity and

decreases

basal,

total and stimulated insulin secretion in obese subjects. Thus

metformin

appears

to be an effective and well-tolerated drug in the treatment of

obesity in

subjects with normal glucose tolerance.

PMID: 15526510 [PubMed - in process]

Cheers, Al Pater.

>

> Since I've returned to the CR fold recently, I noticed that the drug

> Metformin appears to produce the same biomarker effects as CR. Is

> anyone using Metformin out there?

>

> It occurs to me that it might jump-start my CR program, helping with

> weight loss (I have a bad tendency to lose muscle mass), and

> facilitating valuable changes sooner (my lipid profile places me in

> the high-risk category). It might also be possible to enjoy some of

> the benefits of more severe CR without the drawbacks, if used in

> conjunction with CR.

>

> Your practical experience with Metformin would be greatly

appreciated.

>

> Tim

[Guest guest]

Hi

Thank you for the reply to the post.......I didn't know there was a liquid

form..I think I will ask for that because the pill is kind of huge. What dose is

he on? I am on 500mg. They told me it was the lowest dose.........can that be

right? seems awfully high to me.

********************************

Never mistake MOTION for ACTION

********************************

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http://www.angelfire.com/sd/LP35/home.html

From: TARHEELMOM55 <tarheelmom55@...>

Subject: Metformin

Date: Friday, April 2, 2010, 5:31 PM

 

My son, 25 with SMA Type 2/3, takes the liquid form of this drug,

Riomet,due to pill swallowing issues. He hasn't had any side effects.