Re: Osteoporosis Hits Younger Women - And Men

[Guest guest]

Hi....

Here's something noteworthy to read about protein and what was discovered as far back as 1980.

http://www.life-enthusiast.com/amino/index.htm

Ever since I stumbled onto this website looking for something else , I've been putting in practice what was recommended there because of a unique situation I have anyway.

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 10/21/2004 3:39:47 PM Mountain Standard Time, perspect1111@... writes:

Do you know if the case study that the quotation below mentions was published in some reputable medical journal?

Hi...

I don't know any more than you do but I do know not everything is published in some reputable medical journal.......and what I have noticed is that amino acids are coming to the fore more and more........since they are needed to utilize the protein.....even the meal shake SportPharma Whey has the amino acids listed on the can from Whole Foods....

Let's get to the core of the problem instead of treating symptoms..........

[Guest guest]

More anecdotes... I recall a normal weight younger male runner (20's) with a

stress fracture, presumably from running.

Diet and nutrition are always important. Exercise only makes you stronger if

you provide the raw material to repair the stressed body parts.

JR

PS: Pain is natures way of telling us to stop....

-----Original Message-----

From: loganruns73 [mailto:loganruns73@...]

Sent: Thursday, October 21, 2004 1:31 PM

Subject: [ ] Osteoporosis Hits Younger Women - And Men

Osteoporosis Hits Younger Women - And Men

The Record, Bergen County, NJ

20 Oct 2004

Grimm was training for a marathon in April when she started

feeling a twinge in her hip.

She assumed that some moments in her training would be painful, so

she ignored it and kept running. By the end of that 16-mile run, she

couldn't even walk. She had to be carried home and stayed in bed all

weekend.

[Guest guest]

What is the composition of bone? It is basically a protein matrix

(collagen) with calcium phosphate crystals (apatite). It seems that

to have strong bones you need eat adequate levels of protein besides

taking your calcium pills.

Tony

======

J Bone Miner Res. 2000 Dec;15(12):2504-12.

Effect of dietary protein on bone loss in elderly men and women:

the Framingham Osteoporosis Study.

Hannan MT, Tucker KL, Dawson- B, Cupples LA, Felson DT,

Kiel DP.

Hebrew Rehabilitation Center for Aged, Research and Training

Institute and Harvard Medical School Division on Aging, Boston,

Massachusetts 02131-1097, USA.

Few studies have evaluated protein intake and bone loss in elders.

Excess protein may be associated with negative calcium balance,

whereas low protein intake has been associated with fracture. We

examined the relation between baseline dietary protein and subsequent

4-year change in bone mineral density (BMD) for 391 women and 224 men

from the population-based Framingham Osteoporosis Study. BMD (g/cm2)

was assessed in 1988-1989 and in 1992-1993 at the femur, spine, and

radius. Usual dietary protein intake was determined using a

semiquantitative food frequency questionnaire (FFQ) and expressed as

percent of energy from protein intake. BMD loss over 4 years was

regressed on percent protein intake, simultaneously adjusting for

other baseline factors: age, weight, height, weight change, total

energy intake, smoking, alcohol intake, caffeine, physical activity,

calcium intake, and, for women, current estrogen use. Effects of

animal protein on bone loss also were examined. Mean age at baseline

(+/-SD) of 615 participants was 75 years (+/-4.4; range, 68-91 years).

Mean protein intake was 68 g/day (+/-24.0; range, 14-175 g/day), and

mean percent of energy from protein was 16% (+/-3.4; range, 7-30%).

Proportional protein intakes were similar for men and women. Lower

protein intake was significantly related to bone loss at femoral and

spine sites (p < or = 0.04) with effects similar to 10 lb of weight.

Persons in the lowest quartile of protein intake showed the greatest

bone loss. Similar to the overall protein effect, lower percent animal

protein also was significantly related to bone loss at femoral and

spine BMD sites (all p < 0.01) but not the radial shaft (p = 0.23).

Even after controlling for known confounders including weight loss,

women and men with relatively lower protein intake had increased bone

loss, suggesting that protein intake is important in maintaining bone

or minimizing bone loss in elderly persons. Further, higher intake of

animal protein does not appear to affect the skeleton adversely in

this elderly population.

PMID: 11127216

[Guest guest]

Looks like your run-of-the-mill " I have something to sell you "

website.......

on 10/21/2004 5:23 PM, md29again@... at md29again@... wrote:

> Hi....

>

> Here's something noteworthy to read about protein and what was discovered as

> far back as 1980.

>

> http://www.life-enthusiast.com/amino/index.htm

>

> Ever since I stumbled onto this website looking for something else , I've

> been putting in practice what was recommended there because of a unique

> situation

> I have anyway.

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Hi :

The following, at the link you posted, is a pretty remarkable claim.

Millions upon millions of people have back problems. Anyone who

truly cured 100% of cases would win a Nobel Prize.

Do you know if the case study that the quotation below mentions was

published in some reputable medical journal? If it wasn't do we have

some other reason to believe the claim to be true?

This is the quote I am referring to:

" By 1986 the first " Essential Amino Acid formula " was in production

and this perfectly balanced formula was in use. Back pain in

thousands of cases responded so well, that Dr. Vickery in a 50 case

study had 100% success. These ranged from herniated disks (confirmed

by CT Scan and MRI) to lesions that were still intra-diskal yet were

causing pain and malfunction. "

Without serious evidence to support this claim I would assume the guy

is just another 'quack'.

Thanks.

Rodney.

> Hi....

>

> Here's something noteworthy to read about protein and what was

discovered as

> far back as 1980.

>

> http://www.life-enthusiast.com/amino/index.htm

>

> Ever since I stumbled onto this website looking for something

else , I've

> been putting in practice what was recommended there because of a

unique situation

> I have anyway.

>

>

[Guest guest]

: not everything is published in reputable medical journals BUT if you

can't find a more reputable source than that website, we don't " buy " it here

(pun intended). This group bases its' info on science. It's the only way

to be sure the info is reliable.

Even worse than a non-reputable source is a place that also sells products.

on 10/21/2004 6:39 PM, md29again@... at md29again@... wrote:

> In a message dated 10/21/2004 3:39:47 PM Mountain Standard Time,

> perspect1111@... writes:

> Do you know if the case study that the quotation below mentions was

> published in some reputable medical journal?

> Hi...

>

> I don't know any more than you do but I do know not everything is published

> in some reputable medical journal.......and what I have noticed is that amino

> acids are coming to the fore more and more........since they are needed to

> utilize the protein.....even the meal shake SportPharma Whey has the amino

> acids

> listed on the can from Whole Foods....

>

> Let's get to the core of the problem instead of treating symptoms..........

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Hi All,

It seems to me that all the collagen in the world will not make

strong bones. As the articie says, high protein leads to less

calcium in bones. Who in their right CRONer mind would eat 15 mg

protein per day?

Cheers, Al Pater.

>

> What is the composition of bone? It is basically a protein matrix

> (collagen) with calcium phosphate crystals (apatite). It seems that

> to have strong bones you need eat adequate levels of protein besides

> taking your calcium pills.

>

> Tony

> ======

>

> J Bone Miner Res. 2000 Dec;15(12):2504-12.

> Effect of dietary protein on bone loss in elderly men and women:

> the Framingham Osteoporosis Study.

> Hannan MT, Tucker KL, Dawson- B, Cupples LA, Felson DT,

> Kiel DP.

> Hebrew Rehabilitation Center for Aged, Research and Training

> Institute and Harvard Medical School Division on Aging, Boston,

> Massachusetts 02131-1097, USA.

>

> Few studies have evaluated protein intake and bone loss in

elders.

> Excess protein may be associated with negative calcium balance,

> whereas low protein intake has been associated with fracture. We

> examined the relation between baseline dietary protein and

subsequent

> 4-year change in bone mineral density (BMD) for 391 women and 224

men

> from the population-based Framingham Osteoporosis Study. BMD (g/cm2)

> was assessed in 1988-1989 and in 1992-1993 at the femur, spine, and

> radius. Usual dietary protein intake was determined using a

> semiquantitative food frequency questionnaire (FFQ) and expressed as

> percent of energy from protein intake. BMD loss over 4 years was

> regressed on percent protein intake, simultaneously adjusting for

> other baseline factors: age, weight, height, weight change, total

> energy intake, smoking, alcohol intake, caffeine, physical activity,

> calcium intake, and, for women, current estrogen use. Effects of

> animal protein on bone loss also were examined. Mean age at baseline

> (+/-SD) of 615 participants was 75 years (+/-4.4; range, 68-91

years).

> Mean protein intake was 68 g/day (+/-24.0; range, 14-175 g/day), and

> mean percent of energy from protein was 16% (+/-3.4; range, 7-30%).

> Proportional protein intakes were similar for men and women. Lower

> protein intake was significantly related to bone loss at femoral and

> spine sites (p < or = 0.04) with effects similar to 10 lb of weight.

> Persons in the lowest quartile of protein intake showed the greatest

> bone loss. Similar to the overall protein effect, lower percent

animal

> protein also was significantly related to bone loss at femoral and

> spine BMD sites (all p < 0.01) but not the radial shaft (p = 0.23).

> Even after controlling for known confounders including weight loss,

> women and men with relatively lower protein intake had increased

bone

> loss, suggesting that protein intake is important in maintaining

bone

> or minimizing bone loss in elderly persons. Further, higher intake

of

> animal protein does not appear to affect the skeleton adversely in

> this elderly population.

>

> PMID: 11127216

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 10/21/2004 5:03:55 PM Mountain Standard Time, fskelton@... writes:

This group bases its' info on science

Maybe I can find some info to support it....

M

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 10/21/2004 7:10:02 PM Mountain Standard Time, perspect1111@... writes:

As someone said "Extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof". And a cure for 100% of back pain certainly qualifies as an extraordinary claim.

A person's testimony is proof enough for me...I have my own amazing testimony of being crippled over 2 years and suddenly within 3 mnths totally freed up...could only stand 10 minutes.....I don't care who believes it but I have proof of people who knew me before and afterwards.......and I didn't suffer anymore...

[Guest guest]

Hi :

I realize you were trying to be helpful in posting that website. But

if the originator of this supposed cure for 100% of back problems is

not published and celebrated the world over there must be a reason.

The reason can only be that when (more likely if) tested, the 'cure'

had been found not to work.

There are a million snake oil salesmen out there. The principal way

you can distinguish them from the legitimate people is by whether

their claims have been tested in well organized scientific studies,

reviewed by other scientists familiar with the field and, if found to

stand up to scrutiny, published in a recognized scientific journal.

You are welcome to spend your money on whatever you wish, of course.

But this is not the kind of source most people here would consider of

value. Sorry to disappoint you about this.

Have you read the section of Dr. Walford's book (Beyond the 120-Year

Diet) that deals with how to assess different types of 'evidence' -

which types one should pay close attention to, and which one should

resolutely ignore? If you have, you will remember that this type of

information falls in the latter category, unfortunately.

If indeed it turns out that this study, showing a method that works

to cure 100% of backpain, has been published in a scientific journal

you can be certain that a lot of people here will be taking a very

close look at it. But if not then .............. sorry.

As someone said " Extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof " .

And a cure for 100% of back pain certainly qualifies as an

extraordinary claim.

Rodney.

> In a message dated 10/21/2004 3:39:47 PM Mountain Standard Time,

> perspect1111@y... writes:

> Do you know if the case study that the quotation below mentions was

> published in some reputable medical journal?

> Hi...

>

> I don't know any more than you do but I do know not everything is

published

> in some reputable medical journal.......and what I have noticed is

that amino

> acids are coming to the fore more and more........since they are

needed to

> utilize the protein.....even the meal shake SportPharma Whey has

the amino acids

> listed on the can from Whole Foods....

>

> Let's get to the core of the problem instead of treating

symptoms..........

>

>

[Guest guest]

Hi folks:

I have often been curious about who is was that first

said: " Extraordinary claims require ........... " .

So this evening I finally decided to check it out - after all these

years!!!

First a correction. The correct quote appears to be: " Extraordinary

claims require extraordinary evidence. " I.E. " evidence " , not " proof " .

It is ascribed to Hume.

So now I have done my good deed for the day ; ^ )))

Rodney.

--- In , " Rodney " <perspect1111@y...>

wrote:

>

> As someone said " Extraordinary claims require extraordinary

> proof " .

> And a cure for 100% of back pain certainly qualifies as an

> extraordinary claim.

[Guest guest]

From http://www.life-enthusiast.com/amino/index.htm:

" The enzymes that were present in the live food were destroyed. These

enzymes according to Dr. Howell and Dr. Loomis

augmented our " enzyme banks " (a limited capacity to make digestive

enzymes) because the live food helped us to digest itself! It is for

this reason that Dr. Vickery recommends that everyone make an effort

to ingest at least 50% of their food in the natural state. The

average person might have trouble doing even this much. "

AND

" Even with this effort it is necessary to take the Amino Acids

because they are in what is called free form or individual Amino

Acids. They are in the perfect proportions and in sufficient amounts

for the pancreas and small intestine glands to manufacture the

digestive enzymes that is needed to digest the rest of the daily

dietary protein. The body then gets the total amino acids from the

meat, eggs fish, nuts, and protein powders that are part of our daily

diets. "

The problem with the above claims is both is contradictory and

spurious. You can simply supplement your meals with digestive

enzymes to achieve have the same purported effect AND also spare your

limited " enzyme bank " at the same time.

There is nothing special about amino acids, other than a lack of

allergens and being relatively expensive. The body has a preference

for absorbing protein in the di- and tri-peptide form of which free

form amino acids are the end product. If you eat protein/peptides at

the same time as free form amino acids, the free form amino acids

will not be efficiently absorbed (if at all) as both compete for the

same absorption sites. So free form amino acids is " pixie dust " when

included in supplements containing protein/peptides.

Logan

> in some reputable medical journal.......and what I have noticed is

that amino

> acids are coming to the fore more and more........since they are

needed to

> utilize the protein.....even the meal shake SportPharma Whey has

the amino acids

> listed on the can from Whole Foods....

>

> Let's get to the core of the problem instead of treating

symptoms..........

>

>

[Guest guest]

: since we have no idea who you are, such claims mean nothing to us.

As Rodney says, anyone can say anything (esp to sell something) on the net.

You could be a male, 12 years old, crippled or not etc afa we know. Or you

could be the guy on that website you point to with such fervor.

I would suggest you post about this again only when you have something more

concrete to relate. Otherwise we can't take it seriously. There are a

zillion testimonials like this on the www - mostly all scams.

on 10/22/2004 12:01 AM, md29again@... at md29again@... wrote:

> In a message dated 10/21/2004 7:10:02 PM Mountain Standard Time,

> perspect1111@... writes:

> As someone said " Extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof " .

> And a cure for 100% of back pain certainly qualifies as an

> extraordinary claim.

> A person's testimony is proof enough for me...I have my own amazing testimony

> of being crippled over 2 years and suddenly within 3 mnths totally freed

> up...could only stand 10 minutes.....I don't care who believes it but I have

> proof

> of people who knew me before and afterwards.......and I didn't suffer

> anymore...

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Hi :

I am genuinely delighted to hear of your apparent miracle (assuming

you are not, as Francesca wonders, the owner/promoter of a website

trying to sell snake oil).

Having said that, your testimony, presumably genuine, is not

science. It is what would be called a single example of

anecdotal 'evidence'.

If the website owner truly wants to help people with back pain, he is

going about it the wrong way. He should find a qualified medical

professional (chiropractic does not qualify) - the family physicians

of the cured patients would be a great place to start looking - or

university medical centre, show them several patients he claims to

have cured, and persuade them to conduct a properly organized

scientific test of his claims with a significant number of subjects,

objectively assessed.

If such a study then showed results anywhere even remotely close to

what you suggest it would, then VERY QUICKLY (you claim to have been

cured in months) the medical profession world-wide would adopt his

procedures, and he would be nominated for a Nobel Prize in Medicine.

My present belief is that if his procedures were subjected to

scientific testing they would be shown to be worthless. But I would

very quickly be persuaded otherwise if such a study, showing the huge

benefits you claim, came to be accepted for publication in a

reputable medical journal. SO WOULD EVERYONE ELSE.

About a year ago a local person here was written up in the local

newspaper with claims to have cured a number of people with

alzheimer's disease (an extraordinary claim). Interested, I phoned

him. He seemed to make quite a lot of sense over the phone. He did

not have a medical qualification, but did have more than a little

scientific background in chemistry. He said the people he cured had

all shown remarkable improvements in just a few weeks. He said that

he was going to set up a small study with the local hospital to see

if he could get some scientific documentation for his technique. I

thanked him and said I would call him in a few months.

Six months later I called him back to ask how the study was going.

He did not sound enthusiastic and said that his patients had

not 'shown as much progress as he had hoped'. (My interpretation:

they had probably shown no improvement at all). It was six months

later and he had claimed results in weeks. I will call him again in

another six months. But, frankly, I know what the answer will be.

There *are* examples historically of non-medical people discovering

remarkable things in the field of medicine. But they are so rare

that it is highly unlikely someone selling product on a website will

be the next one.

This is my last post on this topic. Good luck to you.

Rodney.

> In a message dated 10/21/2004 7:10:02 PM Mountain Standard Time,

> perspect1111@y... writes:

> As someone said " Extraordinary claims require extraordinary

proof " .

> And a cure for 100% of back pain certainly qualifies as an

> extraordinary claim.

> A person's testimony is proof enough for me...I have my own amazing

testimony

> of being crippled over 2 years and suddenly within 3 mnths totally

freed

> up...could only stand 10 minutes.....I don't care who believes it

but I have proof

> of people who knew me before and afterwards.......and I didn't

suffer

> anymore...

>

>

[Guest guest]

> In a message dated 10/21/2004 7:10:02 PM Mountain Standard Time,

> perspect1111@y... writes:

> As someone said " Extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof " .

> And a cure for 100% of back pain certainly qualifies as an

> extraordinary claim.

> A person's testimony is proof enough for me...I have my own amazing

testimony

> of being crippled over 2 years and suddenly within 3 mnths totally

freed

> up...could only stand 10 minutes.....I don't care who believes it

but I have proof

> of people who knew me before and afterwards.......and I didn't

suffer

> anymore...

>

>

Hello,

On a similar note, my wife started eating sardines and salmon every

day when I showed her a few articles about the benefits of Omega 3

fatty acids. Guess what, after just a few weeks, her arthritis in her

hands and wrists completely disappeared. Her arthritis wasn't that

severe and only present usually during stormy weather. Still she's

had this condition for years and has noticed it getting worse lately.

Actually she hates the taste of fish and was previously not eating

hardly any Omega 3 fatty acids at all.

Interesting aside also is that on a recent trip to France and

Germany, she wouldn't eat any fish again - I guess since she was on

vacation and just didn't want to. Anyway when we got back, the second

day she noticed some arthritis again and has since resumed her daily

quota of fish. Hopefully the arthritis will disappear again.

Aequalsz

OT PS Ich habe gegessen viel kartofflin und schwein. (sp sp sp sp).

[Guest guest]

Aequalsz: your claim is not similar to 's at all. Yours is based on

many studies posted here that fatty fish and fish oil benefit many such

problems/conditions. Based on scientific studies and then borne out by

personal experience - one of the reasons we have this group - to cull the

best scientific info currently available. Plus YOU'RE NOT TRYING TO SELL US

ANYTHING.

BTW did you notice the prices for such things as vitamins on the

aforementioned website? I noticed one such " packet " costing $150 for a one

month's supply. Smells pretty bad to me.

" A fool and his money are soon parted " .

on 10/22/2004 10:31 AM, aequalsz at aequalsz@... wrote

>

> On a similar note, my wife started eating sardines and salmon every

> day when I showed her a few articles about the benefits of Omega 3

> fatty acids. Guess what, after just a few weeks, her arthritis in her

> hands and wrists completely disappeared. Her arthritis wasn't that

> severe and only present usually during stormy weather. Still she's

> had this condition for years and has noticed it getting worse lately.

> Actually she hates the taste of fish and was previously not eating

> hardly any Omega 3 fatty acids at all.

>

> Interesting aside also is that on a recent trip to France and

> Germany, she wouldn't eat any fish again - I guess since she was on

> vacation and just didn't want to. Anyway when we got back, the second

> day she noticed some arthritis again and has since resumed her daily

> quota of fish. Hopefully the arthritis will disappear again.

>

> Aequalsz

>

> OT PS Ich habe gegessen viel kartofflin und schwein. (sp sp sp sp).

>

>

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Hi Francesca:

As you note:

" CONCLUSIONS: Treatment with omega-3 fatty acids has been associated

with improvement in some outcome measures in rheumatoid arthritis.

Studies are needed to determine if they might represent an

alternative to nonsteroidal antiinflammatory drugs in certain

circumstances. " PMID: 9662755, and .......

" Omega-3 fatty acids also are used to treat hyperlipidemia,

hypertension, and rheumatoid arthritis "

http://www.aafp.org/afp/20040701/133.html

Rodney.

> Aequalsz: your claim is not similar to 's at all. Yours is

based on

> many studies posted here that fatty fish and fish oil benefit many

such

> problems/conditions. Based on scientific studies and then borne

out by

> personal experience - one of the reasons we have this group - to

cull the

> best scientific info currently available. Plus YOU'RE NOT TRYING

TO SELL US

> ANYTHING.

>

> BTW did you notice the prices for such things as vitamins on the

> aforementioned website? I noticed one such " packet " costing $150

for a one

> month's supply. Smells pretty bad to me.

>

> " A fool and his money are soon parted " .

>

>

>

> on 10/22/2004 10:31 AM, aequalsz at aequalsz@y... wrote

>

>

> >

> > On a similar note, my wife started eating sardines and salmon

every

> > day when I showed her a few articles about the benefits of Omega 3

> > fatty acids. Guess what, after just a few weeks, her arthritis

in her

> > hands and wrists completely disappeared. Her arthritis wasn't

that

> > severe and only present usually during stormy weather. Still

she's

> > had this condition for years and has noticed it getting worse

lately.

> > Actually she hates the taste of fish and was previously not eating

> > hardly any Omega 3 fatty acids at all.

> >

> > Interesting aside also is that on a recent trip to France and

> > Germany, she wouldn't eat any fish again - I guess since she was

on

> > vacation and just didn't want to. Anyway when we got back, the

second

> > day she noticed some arthritis again and has since resumed her

daily

> > quota of fish. Hopefully the arthritis will disappear again.

> >

> > Aequalsz

> >

> > OT PS Ich habe gegessen viel kartofflin und schwein. (sp sp sp

sp).

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

[Guest guest]

> Aequalsz: your claim is not similar to 's at all. Yours is

based on

> many studies posted here that fatty fish and fish oil benefit many

such

> problems/conditions. Based on scientific studies and then borne

out by

> personal experience - one of the reasons we have this group - to

cull the

> best scientific info currently available. Plus YOU'RE NOT TRYING

TO SELL US

> ANYTHING.

>

> BTW did you notice the prices for such things as vitamins on the

> aforementioned website? I noticed one such " packet " costing $150

for a one

> month's supply. Smells pretty bad to me.

>

> " A fool and his money are soon parted " .

>

Hello,

Actually I don't waste much time reading obvious " snake-oil " web

sites. But am glad to hear that " " is feeling better. :-)

Aequalsz

PS , my apologies to you if you are for real. Good luck.

[Guest guest]

You did not cure a herniated disk with ANY item you ingest, period. You will be required to provide a LOT of proof for that. Like a myelogram of the disk before and after treatment (A myelogram uses X-ray imaging and an injected dye to define bony and soft tissue structures affecting the nerve root.).

http://orthoinfo.aaos.org/fact/thr_report.cfm?thread_id=185 & topcategory=spine

Back pain comes and goes.

Regards.

----- Original Message -----

From: md29again@...

Sent: Thursday, October 21, 2004 10:56 PM

Subject: Re: [ ] Re: Osteoporosis Hits Younger Women - And Men

In a message dated 10/21/2004 5:03:55 PM Mountain Standard Time, fskelton@... writes:

This group bases its' info on science

Maybe I can find some info to support it....

M

[Guest guest]

Interesting that Dr. Taller who wrote the first book on the high fat diet, was put in prison, 1967, for selling safflower oil capsules thru the mail. He was actually a practicing physician and his diet actually worked.

Today they can sell anything thru the mail.

I usually use puritan's for vitamins. They are not necessarily cheaper than Walmart/Sams. But, I notice that the price on a given product will fall like one previously selling for 10$ might be on sale for $1.85. I use THAT as guide to effectiveness.

The things that tend to hold their price must be working for someone, like glucosamine/condroitin. That's about 30$ for 240 capsules at walmart. A 4 month supply. It seems to work for my wife (not a testimonial here). So 10$/month is a cheap placebo if that's all it is.

Another guide is to look at the 1982 book of life extension chemicals and tell me which ones are still in vogue. Pantothenic acid is notable, at least it's the only one I remember. And it's very cheap, but we get it in food. In 1946, it was yogurt, blackstrap molasses and wheat germ bread (Gaylord Houser). The bad thing is I can actually remember people who died believing that shxx would help, scrounging for anything to better their health.

Another is manganese. I figured out once, that manganese and several other chemicals would grow hair so I tried the combination and guess what? It DIDN'T grow hair. I also tried a combination of herbs to fix BPH and that didn't work either. But not long after that I found they were selling that combination on TV. You can sell anything on TV.

So I have a testimonial now that says NOTHING WORKS, at least not for what it's intended. I can't imagine what goes thru a persons head that thinks supplements are going to make them live longer. If I actually knew what would do that, I sure as hexx wouldn't sell it for a few bucks on TV or the inet and I wouldn't write a book.

I'd peddle it to a pharma company for a few million $. Or some rich old guy.

Regards.

----- Original Message -----

From: aequalsz

Sent: Friday, October 22, 2004 10:27 AM

Subject: [ ] Re: Osteoporosis Hits Younger Women - And Men

> Aequalsz: your claim is not similar to 's at all. Yours is based on> many studies posted here that fatty fish and fish oil benefit many such> problems/conditions. Based on scientific studies and then borne out by> personal experience - one of the reasons we have this group - to cull the> best scientific info currently available. Plus YOU'RE NOT TRYING TO SELL US> ANYTHING.> > BTW did you notice the prices for such things as vitamins on the> aforementioned website? I noticed one such "packet" costing $150 for a one> month's supply. Smells pretty bad to me.> > "A fool and his money are soon parted".> Hello,Actually I don't waste much time reading obvious "snake-oil" web sites. But am glad to hear that "" is feeling better. :-)AequalszPS , my apologies to you if you are for real. Good luck.

[Guest guest]

Actually, most scholars credit the first low fat diet book to an

English carpenter named Banting, circa 1865. He said he was

following the advice of a physician names Harvey (obviously

not the 17th century circulation guy but maybe a relative).

Harvey's book, booklet really, was entitled " A Letter on Corpulence

Addressed to the Public. "

It became a phenomenal best seller, in the UK, and later in the U.S.

In fact, dieting was called Banting ( " I'm Banting " ) for quite awhile.

There were many other low carb diets through the 19th and 20th

century. In fact, my physcian, an internist, says that high fat

diets were much in vogue as a treatment along with stravation diets

before the discovery and development of insulin (interesting enough,

by a guy named Banting)in the early 1920's.

There continued to be numerous low-carb diets however, including

Taller's " Eat Fat, Grow Thin, " The " Holiday Diet, " and many others.

Thus, Atkins followed in a well-established tradition.

Here's an interesting link on Banting:

http://www.second-opinions.co.uk/banting.html

And if you are interested, a good summary of fad diets of the past

century-and-a-half:

http://tinyurl.com/54fm4

Mike

> > Aequalsz: your claim is not similar to 's at all. Yours

is

> based on

> > many studies posted here that fatty fish and fish oil benefit

many

> such

> > problems/conditions. Based on scientific studies and then

borne

> out by

> > personal experience - one of the reasons we have this group -

to

> cull the

> > best scientific info currently available. Plus YOU'RE NOT

TRYING

> TO SELL US

> > ANYTHING.

> >

> > BTW did you notice the prices for such things as vitamins on

the

> > aforementioned website? I noticed one such " packet " costing

$150

> for a one

> > month's supply. Smells pretty bad to me.

> >

> > " A fool and his money are soon parted " .

> >

>

> Hello,

>

> Actually I don't waste much time reading obvious " snake-oil " web

> sites. But am glad to hear that " " is feeling better. :-)

>

> Aequalsz

>

> PS , my apologies to you if you are for real. Good luck.

[Guest guest]

So much for scholars.

Actually, I've heard of Banting, Taller refers to him on the last page.But I could never find his book. Not in the TMC Library. Medline doesn't go back that far. So I don't quote things I have no reference for. IOW, I have no idea what Banting's diet was. The web site doesn't do it for me.

Taller says: "Banting in his day, went as far as he could. He could not perfect his dietary pattern or advance further than he did, because in his time the physiology of obesity was one more mystery as yet unsolved by advancing medical science."

"In this book the means have been presented to you."

Those statements imply to me, that Taller thought he knew something Banting did not about obesity and diet.

If you have a copy of Banting's letter, maybe you could enlighten us.

Please no web sites, just the letter.

Here's one, maybe.

Letter on corpulence, addressed to the public. Third edition.Banting, .

Price: US$ 100.00

Bookseller: SessaBks (Philadelphia, PA, U.S.A.)

Regards.

----- Original Message -----

From: mikesheldrick

Sent: Friday, October 22, 2004 1:50 PM

Subject: [ ] Re: Osteoporosis Hits Younger Women - And Men

Actually, most scholars credit the first low fat diet book to an English carpenter named Banting, circa 1865. He said he was following the advice of a physician names Harvey (obviously not the 17th century circulation guy but maybe a relative). Harvey's book, booklet really, was entitled "A Letter on Corpulence Addressed to the Public."It became a phenomenal best seller, in the UK, and later in the U.S. In fact, dieting was called Banting ("I'm Banting") for quite awhile.There were many other low carb diets through the 19th and 20th century. In fact, my physcian, an internist, says that high fat diets were much in vogue as a treatment along with stravation diets before the discovery and development of insulin (interesting enough, by a guy named Banting)in the early 1920's.There continued to be numerous low-carb diets however, including Taller's "Eat Fat, Grow Thin," The "Holiday Diet," and many others.Thus, Atkins followed in a well-established tradition.Here's an interesting link on Banting:http://www.second-opinions.co.uk/banting.htmlAnd if you are interested, a good summary of fad diets of the past century-and-a-half:http://tinyurl.com/54fm4Mike > Interesting that Dr. Taller who wrote the first book on the high fat diet, was put in prison, 1967, for selling safflower oil capsules thru the mail. He was actually a practicing physician and his diet actually worked. > Today they can sell anything thru the mail.> > I usually use puritan's for vitamins. They are not necessarily cheaper than Walmart/Sams. But, I notice that the price on a given product will fall like one previously selling for 10$ might be on sale for $1.85. I use THAT as guide to effectiveness. > > The things that tend to hold their price must be working for someone, like glucosamine/condroitin. That's about 30$ for 240 capsules at walmart. A 4 month supply. It seems to work for my wife (not a testimonial here). So 10$/month is a cheap placebo if that's all it is. > > Another guide is to look at the 1982 book of life extension chemicals and tell me which ones are still in vogue. Pantothenic acid is notable, at least it's the only one I remember. And it's very cheap, but we get it in food. In 1946, it was yogurt, blackstrap molasses and wheat germ bread (Gaylord Houser). The bad thing is I can actually remember people who died believing that shxx would help, scrounging for anything to better their health. > > Another is manganese. I figured out once, that manganese and several other chemicals would grow hair so I tried the combination and guess what? It DIDN'T grow hair. I also tried a combination of herbs to fix BPH and that didn't work either. But not long after that I found they were selling that combination on TV. You can sell anything on TV. > > So I have a testimonial now that says NOTHING WORKS, at least not for what it's intended. I can't imagine what goes thru a persons head that thinks supplements are going to make them live longer. If I actually knew what would do that, I sure as hexx wouldn't sell it for a few bucks on TV or the inet and I wouldn't write a book. > > I'd peddle it to a pharma company for a few million $. Or some rich old guy. > > Regards.

[Guest guest]

Below:

----- Original Message -----

From: jwwright

Sent: Friday, October 22, 2004 9:57 AM

Subject: Re: [ ] Re: Osteoporosis Hits Younger Women - And Men

Interesting that Dr. Taller who wrote the first book on the high fat diet, was put in prison, 1967, for selling safflower oil capsules thru the mail. He was actually a practicing physician and his diet actually worked.

Today they can sell anything thru the mail.

I was one of the many who tried Dr. Herman Taller's Calories Don't Count. It actually followed Steffanson's "The Fat of the Land" and Mackarness's (probably mispelled that) Eat Fat and Grow Slim. I tried them all. Taller's technique which amounted to swallowing a couple of ounces of salad oil before meals didn't work for me, although I gained less on it than on the Drinking Man's Diet. (60 grams max of carbo per day, all the meat you can eat, all the booze you can swill). I can still remember throwing down a couple of swallows of oil before going to lunch with a client. (Taller's technique). It, too, was low carb, but I don't remember the carb details.

I gained weight quite steadily during those years. Of course. I was increasing calories and decreasing physical effort.

Ah yes, I remember it well.

Ed S.

[Guest guest]

Hi All,

For what a man would like to be true, that he more readily believes.

Francis Bacon

Mark Twain said... " Don't believe everything you read in a health

book, you can die of a misprint! "

Cheers, Al Pater.

> > > Aequalsz: your claim is not similar to 's at all. Yours

> is

> > based on

> > > many studies posted here that fatty fish and fish oil benefit

> many

> > such

> > > problems/conditions. Based on scientific studies and then

> borne

> > out by

> > > personal experience - one of the reasons we have this group -

> to

> > cull the

> > > best scientific info currently available. Plus YOU'RE NOT

> TRYING

> > TO SELL US

> > > ANYTHING.

> > >

> > > BTW did you notice the prices for such things as vitamins on

> the

> > > aforementioned website? I noticed one such " packet " costing

> $150

> > for a one

> > > month's supply. Smells pretty bad to me.

> > >

> > > " A fool and his money are soon parted " .

> > >

> >

> > Hello,

> >

> > Actually I don't waste much time reading obvious " snake-oil "

web

> > sites. But am glad to hear that " " is feeling better. :-)

> >

> > Aequalsz

> >

> > PS , my apologies to you if you are for real. Good luck.