Re: PUFA better than MUFA for heart disease

[Guest guest]

Hi Al:

Those findings about the apparent superiority of polyunsaturated oils

for CVD over both mono- and saturated fats agrees fully with the

findings of the Nurses' Health Study, which I seem to remember found

polys to be decisively superior. Not just marginally better.

Of course they found trans to be worst, and saturated second worst.

However, if you have to use oil, olive oil MAY be superior when it

comes to cancer, which may be more relevant to those on CRON? Also,

of course, mono-unsaturated is not, as far as I know, an essential

nutrient, whereas linoleic definitely is - which is why I use largely

safflower oil which, because it is almost 80% linoleic permits one to

get the RDA for it with the smallest possible number of calories.

But as Jeff notes, it would be better still to get the linoleic from

vegetables. I just have not been able to find a comprehensive list

of how much linoleic the various vegetables contain.

Rodney.

--- In , " old542000 " <apater@m...>

wrote:

>

> Hi All,

>

> Poly- is better than monounsaturated and saturated fatty acids to

> prevent

> heart disease in a primate model? This seems to be what

> the pdf-available to all below suggested to me.

>

> The wisdom here seems to be that the monounsaturated

> fats are better.

>

> Certainly 9 years old is a long time ago for a paper. The

> journal is quite well read. Primates are a good model system

> for human disease assessment.

>

> Note, that the blood fats dived while heart disease risk

> floated.

>

> Rudel LL, Parks JS, Sawyer JK.

> Compared with dietary monounsaturated and saturated fat,

> polyunsaturated fat

> protects African green monkeys from coronary artery atherosclerosis.

> Arterioscler Thromb Vasc Biol. 1995 Dec;15(12):2101-10.

> PMID: 7489230 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

>

> http://atvb.ahajournals.org/cgi/content/full/15/12/2101

>

> Cheers, Alan Pater

[Guest guest]

you might consider:

"After the challenge diet period and a 10-week washout period, each group was fed for about 5 years with experimental diets containing 35% of kilocalories as fat and 0.8 mg cholesterol/kcal; the diets differed only in fatty acid composition."

these were high fat diets.

{what happens when compared to low fat?}

and for another post somewhere:

http://www.pubmedcentral.gov/articlerender.fcgi?tool=pmcentrez & artid=28525

"Blood cholesterol concentration is an important and modifiable risk factor for coronary heart disease.1 A sustained reduction in blood total cholesterol concentration of 1% is associated with a 2-3% reduction in incidence of coronary heart disease.2 Even small reductions in population cholesterol concentrations could therefore be worth while. "

1. , MJ., Hulley, SB., Browner, WS., Kuller, LH., & Wentworth, D. Serum cholesterol, blood pressure, and mortality: implications from a cohort of 361,662 men. Lancet 1986; 2: 933936 .

2. Law, MR., Wald, NJ., & , SG. By how much and how quickly does reduction in serum cholesterol concentration lower risk of ischaemic heart disease? BMJ 1994; 308: 367372 .

----- Original Message -----

From: Rodney

Sent: Friday, November 12, 2004 4:35 PM

Subject: [ ] Re: PUFA better than MUFA for heart disease

Hi Al:Those findings about the apparent superiority of polyunsaturated oils for CVD over both mono- and saturated fats agrees fully with the findings of the Nurses' Health Study, which I seem to remember found polys to be decisively superior. Not just marginally better.Of course they found trans to be worst, and saturated second worst.However, if you have to use oil, olive oil MAY be superior when it comes to cancer, which may be more relevant to those on CRON? Also, of course, mono-unsaturated is not, as far as I know, an essential nutrient, whereas linoleic definitely is - which is why I use largely safflower oil which, because it is almost 80% linoleic permits one to get the RDA for it with the smallest possible number of calories. But as Jeff notes, it would be better still to get the linoleic from vegetables. I just have not been able to find a comprehensive list of how much linoleic the various vegetables contain.Rodney.

[Guest guest]

>>>

From: " Rodney " <perspect1111@y...>

Date: Fri Nov 12, 2004 5:35 pm

Subject: Re: PUFA better than MUFA for heart disease

.... mono-unsaturated is not, as far as I know, an essential

nutrient, whereas linoleic definitely is - which is why I use largely

safflower oil which, because it is almost 80% linoleic permits one to

get the RDA for it with the smallest possible number of calories.

But as Jeff notes, it would be better still to get the linoleic from

vegetables. I just have not been able to find a comprehensive list

of how much linoleic the various vegetables contain.

>>>

You may be able to calculate LA content using Nutrition Labels and a

knowledge of the fatty acid percentages in various oils. Example:

Raw sunflower kernels:

Serving 1/4 cup (33g)

Total Calories 190

Total Fat 16g

Since Sunflower oil has 68% LA, we can deduce that one serving of

sunflower seeds has 10.9 grams of LA. Once you decide how many grams

of LA you want in your diet, multiply times three and this is the

number of grams of sunflower seeds that you need.

>>>

From: " jwwright " <jwwright@e...>

Date: Fri Nov 12, 2004 8:45 pm

Subject: Re: [ ] Re: PUFA better than MUFA for heart

disease

you might consider:

" After the challenge diet period and a 10-week washout period, each

group was fed for about 5 years with experimental diets containing 35%

of kilocalories as fat and 0.8 mg cholesterol/kcal; the diets differed

only in fatty acid composition. "

these were high fat diets.

{what happens when compared to low fat?}

>>>

It seems to me that 35% fat is not too far from the Zone diet. As

mentioned in Message 16072, low fat diets may increase lipid levels,

but as Jeff pointed out, that happens when the diet has a large

portion of simple carbs.

Tony

[Guest guest]

I don't give any credence to (take advice from) the zone idea.

The <30 % fat limit comes from a Finnish study.

In fact, my zone book is now at the bottom of the bookcase.

Regards.

----- Original Message -----

From: citpeks

Sent: Saturday, November 13, 2004 10:57 AM

Subject: [ ] Re: PUFA better than MUFA for heart disease

It seems to me that 35% fat is not too far from the Zone diet. Asmentioned in Message 16072, low fat diets may increase lipid levels,but as Jeff pointed out, that happens when the diet has a largeportion of simple carbs.Tony

[Guest guest]

The only thing of merit I took from the Zone approach was that it was a mix of "ALL" macronutrients. That put it head and shoulders above

the majority of pop diets that usually involved eating some silly food combination or completely knocking out a major, while

standing on one leg, hopping, and chanting "I don't miss my cash". :-)

For any who haven't yet figured out my opinion regarding macronutrient ratios email me off list JR@duh,com

JR

-----Original Message-----From: jwwright [mailto:jwwright@...]Sent: Saturday, November 13, 2004 11:15 AM Subject: Re: [ ] Re: PUFA better than MUFA for heart disease

I don't give any credence to (take advice from) the zone idea.

The <30 % fat limit comes from a Finnish study.

In fact, my zone book is now at the bottom of the bookcase.

Regards.

----- Original Message -----

From: citpeks

Sent: Saturday, November 13, 2004 10:57 AM

Subject: [ ] Re: PUFA better than MUFA for heart disease

It seems to me that 35% fat is not too far from the Zone diet. Asmentioned in Message 16072, low fat diets may increase lipid levels,but as Jeff pointed out, that happens when the diet has a largeportion of simple carbs.Tony

[Guest guest]

Hi Tony:

I don't have difficulty knowing how much linoleic acid is in

something for which I know the total fat content and the linoleic

percentage. I also have no difficulty finding the total fat content

of any kind of pretty much any vegetable.

The problem I have is finding the linoleic proportion of pretty much

**any** vegetable ('vegetable' being defined as the meaning commonly

used, and not including nuts, oils and the like.)

If anyone can tell me where to find a breakout of the types of fats

in teh vegetables (i.e. especially the leafy green ones all of us

here eat) I would greatly appreciate it.

>

> >>>

> From: " Rodney " <perspect1111@y...>

> Date: Fri Nov 12, 2004 5:35 pm

> Subject: Re: PUFA better than MUFA for heart disease

>

> ... mono-unsaturated is not, as far as I know, an essential

> nutrient, whereas linoleic definitely is - which is why I use

largely

> safflower oil which, because it is almost 80% linoleic permits one

to

> get the RDA for it with the smallest possible number of calories.

> But as Jeff notes, it would be better still to get the linoleic from

> vegetables. I just have not been able to find a comprehensive list

> of how much linoleic the various vegetables contain.

> >>>

>

> You may be able to calculate LA content using Nutrition Labels and a

> knowledge of the fatty acid percentages in various oils.

Example:

>

> Raw sunflower kernels:

> Serving 1/4 cup (33g)

> Total Calories 190

> Total Fat 16g

>

> Since Sunflower oil has 68% LA, we can deduce that one serving of

> sunflower seeds has 10.9 grams of LA. Once you decide how many

grams

> of LA you want in your diet, multiply times three and this is the

> number of grams of sunflower seeds that you need.

>

> >>>

> From: " jwwright " <jwwright@e...>

> Date: Fri Nov 12, 2004 8:45 pm

> Subject: Re: [ ] Re: PUFA better than MUFA for heart

> disease

>

> you might consider:

> " After the challenge diet period and a 10-week washout period, each

> group was fed for about 5 years with experimental diets containing

35%

> of kilocalories as fat and 0.8 mg cholesterol/kcal; the diets

differed

> only in fatty acid composition. "

> these were high fat diets.

> {what happens when compared to low fat?}

> >>>

>

> It seems to me that 35% fat is not too far from the Zone diet. As

> mentioned in Message 16072, low fat diets may increase lipid levels,

> but as Jeff pointed out, that happens when the diet has a large

> portion of simple carbs.

>

> Tony

[Guest guest]

Hi Tony:

I don't have difficulty knowing how much linoleic acid is in

something for which I know the total fat content and the linoleic

percentage. I also have no difficulty finding the total fat content

of any kind of pretty much any vegetable.

The problem I have is finding the linoleic proportion of pretty much

**any** vegetable ('vegetable' being defined as the meaning commonly

used, and not including nuts, oils and the like.)

If anyone can tell me where to find a breakout of the types of fats

in teh vegetables (i.e. especially the leafy green ones all of us

here eat) I would greatly appreciate it.

>

> >>>

> From: " Rodney " <perspect1111@y...>

> Date: Fri Nov 12, 2004 5:35 pm

> Subject: Re: PUFA better than MUFA for heart disease

>

> ... mono-unsaturated is not, as far as I know, an essential

> nutrient, whereas linoleic definitely is - which is why I use

largely

> safflower oil which, because it is almost 80% linoleic permits one

to

> get the RDA for it with the smallest possible number of calories.

> But as Jeff notes, it would be better still to get the linoleic from

> vegetables. I just have not been able to find a comprehensive list

> of how much linoleic the various vegetables contain.

> >>>

>

> You may be able to calculate LA content using Nutrition Labels and a

> knowledge of the fatty acid percentages in various oils.

Example:

>

> Raw sunflower kernels:

> Serving 1/4 cup (33g)

> Total Calories 190

> Total Fat 16g

>

> Since Sunflower oil has 68% LA, we can deduce that one serving of

> sunflower seeds has 10.9 grams of LA. Once you decide how many

grams

> of LA you want in your diet, multiply times three and this is the

> number of grams of sunflower seeds that you need.

>

> >>>

> From: " jwwright " <jwwright@e...>

> Date: Fri Nov 12, 2004 8:45 pm

> Subject: Re: [ ] Re: PUFA better than MUFA for heart

> disease

>

> you might consider:

> " After the challenge diet period and a 10-week washout period, each

> group was fed for about 5 years with experimental diets containing

35%

> of kilocalories as fat and 0.8 mg cholesterol/kcal; the diets

differed

> only in fatty acid composition. "

> these were high fat diets.

> {what happens when compared to low fat?}

> >>>

>

> It seems to me that 35% fat is not too far from the Zone diet. As

> mentioned in Message 16072, low fat diets may increase lipid levels,

> but as Jeff pointed out, that happens when the diet has a large

> portion of simple carbs.

>

> Tony

[Guest guest]

Hi folks:

Please ignore the two duplicate posts. I have now resolved the

problem I thought I was having. I had the mistaken impression that

linoleic acid was 16:2 - for which there seems to be little

information. In fact it looks like it is 18:2, for which quite a lot

of information appears to be available.

It will take some work, but I now realize that I will be able to

figure out my linoleic intake from the vegetables I regularly eat.

So I may find that safflower oil is not *necessary*. But that

remains to be seen.

Nevertheless, safflower still looks like a good choice for males

where an oil is required, free from stuff like ALA.

Rodney.

--- In , " Rodney " <perspect1111@y...>

wrote:

>

> Hi Tony:

>

> I don't have difficulty knowing how much linoleic acid is in

> something for which I know the total fat content and the linoleic

> percentage. I also have no difficulty finding the total fat

content

> of any kind of pretty much any vegetable.

>

> The problem I have is finding the linoleic proportion of pretty

much

> **any** vegetable ('vegetable' being defined as the meaning

commonly

> used, and not including nuts, oils and the like.)

>

> If anyone can tell me where to find a breakout of the types of fats

> in teh vegetables (i.e. especially the leafy green ones all of us

> here eat) I would greatly appreciate it.

>

> --- In , " citpeks " <citpeks@y...>

wrote:

> >

> > >>>

> > From: " Rodney " <perspect1111@y...>

> > Date: Fri Nov 12, 2004 5:35 pm

> > Subject: Re: PUFA better than MUFA for heart disease

> >

> > ... mono-unsaturated is not, as far as I know, an essential

> > nutrient, whereas linoleic definitely is - which is why I use

> largely

> > safflower oil which, because it is almost 80% linoleic permits

one

> to

> > get the RDA for it with the smallest possible number of calories.

> > But as Jeff notes, it would be better still to get the linoleic

from

> > vegetables. I just have not been able to find a comprehensive list

> > of how much linoleic the various vegetables contain.

> > >>>

> >

> > You may be able to calculate LA content using Nutrition Labels

and a

> > knowledge of the fatty acid percentages in various oils.

> Example:

> >

> > Raw sunflower kernels:

> > Serving 1/4 cup (33g)

> > Total Calories 190

> > Total Fat 16g

> >

> > Since Sunflower oil has 68% LA, we can deduce that one serving of

> > sunflower seeds has 10.9 grams of LA. Once you decide how many

> grams

> > of LA you want in your diet, multiply times three and this is the

> > number of grams of sunflower seeds that you need.

> >

> > >>>

> > From: " jwwright " <jwwright@e...>

> > Date: Fri Nov 12, 2004 8:45 pm

> > Subject: Re: [ ] Re: PUFA better than MUFA for heart

> > disease

> >

> > you might consider:

> > " After the challenge diet period and a 10-week washout period,

each

> > group was fed for about 5 years with experimental diets

containing

> 35%

> > of kilocalories as fat and 0.8 mg cholesterol/kcal; the diets

> differed

> > only in fatty acid composition. "

> > these were high fat diets.

> > {what happens when compared to low fat?}

> > >>>

> >

> > It seems to me that 35% fat is not too far from the Zone diet. As

> > mentioned in Message 16072, low fat diets may increase lipid

levels,

> > but as Jeff pointed out, that happens when the diet has a large

> > portion of simple carbs.

> >

> > Tony