Guest guest Posted October 15, 2004 Report Share Posted October 15, 2004 Hi Logan: Well if those numbers for Clinton are correct then his HDL + TG was a mere 56! And it is unlikely he had low TG. So what in hell was his HDL? 10? No wonder he had 90% occlusion if those numbers are right. And why did someone not impress on him what they meant? And suggest a carotid IMT or something of the kind? It reminds me of a friend who had their lipids tests run each year for years, yet their doctor never discussed with them that their numbers were sky high. It took me to tell them before they realized the situation. This is stuff I just do not understand. Rodney. > > > No, I'm not baiting. I offer what I read for discussion. > > > Chitosan of course, binds to fat in the gut and does not remove > fat > > from arteries. It may serve to keep some away from the arteries, > > perhaps. > > > The runners had clogged arteries and as well I know it Ornish is > > the only claim to removing that fat/plaque, whatever. Searching the > > words cholesterol metabolism gets a lot of unrelated stuff. And > > that's why I asked. I was hoping Jeff, maybe would comment. > > > > > > But the thing I've noticed is that just because someone runs does > > not guarantee clear arteries. And maybe it doesn't even promote > clear > > arteries. We see Atherosclerosis developing even in teens and pre- > > teens by some mechanism. Ref the Bogalusa Heart Study of teen > > autopsies. Even 6 yo can show elevated BP. > > > > > > And the son of a friend, a very " fit " looking 20yo football > player > > at Ga, died in his dorm, 90% clogged. Her other 2 children have > > partially clogged arteries and they are not obese. So I must guess > > some other mechanism is at work. > > > > > > But to get back to this 1985 book, the only reason I posted it, > is > > because it lists the names of 16 prominent dead runners, including > > Fixx: > > > > > > Jim Dooley, 37 > > > e, 49, physiologist > > > Col. Giles Hall, 50, a 20 year jogger > > > Dr. Summers, 54, Miami Heart Institute > > > Dr. Lauth, 46, American Heart Institute > > > Dr. Doroff, 49, 18 mile training run > > > Duane Armstong, 59, > > > Ron Holmes, 37 > > > Dr. W. Royce, Jr., 51 > > > Peek, 58 > > > Russ Hargreaves, 67 > > > Dodge , 29, > > > Bill English, 19, football player > > > Chuck , 28, Lions Receiver > > > Jim Fixx, 52 > > > Jacques Bussereau, 48 - 1984 NY marathon > > > > > > {And my friend Coutret, who arose every morning at 6 am and > > ran 5 miles before going to work. Died picking up a snow shovel, at > > 65yo.} > > > > > > Pritikin quotes Dr. Ernst Jokl; " Among the postmortem findings, > > coronary atherosclerosis and degenerative changes of the myocardium > > were the most frequent....... > > > " Even the most strenuous exercise will not cause death in > subjects > > with normal Hearts " . > > > > > > Dr. reported data for each sedentary man who > > experienced sudden death there were 7 joggers! > > > > > > {Ok, so I'll check for myself.} > > > > > > Pediatric Clinics of North America > > > Volume 51 . Number 5 . October 2004 > > > > > > Exercise recommendations and risk factors for sudden cardiac death > > > To this end, in 1994 the 26th Bethesda Conference undertook the > > task of re-evaluating the risk of sports participation among > athletes > > who have cardiovascular disease and derived a consensus on disease- > > specific competitive sports limitations [1] > > > > > > A study to determine the incidence of the problem was conducted > > among Minnesota high school athletes; the risk of sudden death was > > estimated to be 1 case/200,000 population per year [9] . The > > prevalence of underlying or undiagnosed cardiac disease in the > > general population is unclear. > > > > > > Risk factors for sudden cardiac death > > > The fact that many young athletes who experienced sudden death > were > > believed to be completely healthy incorrectly led to the belief > that > > no precipitating cause could be found. In reality, the most common > > reason for sudden death is significant cardiovascular disease, > either > > anatomic or arrhythmogenic [3] [4] [5] [10] [11] . Hypertrophic > > cardiomyopathy (HCM), a condition that occurs in approximately 2 in > > 1000 individuals in the general population, is the most common > cause > > of sudden cardiac death [11] [12] . > > > > > > HCM consists of a diverse group of primary cardiac muscle > > abnormalities that result in abnormal thickening of the myocardium, > > generally the left ventricle [13] . ...Several genetic markers that > > represent various proteins in the myocardial contractile apparatus > > have been implicated in causing this abnormal hypertrophy. Although > > HCM occur in an isolated individual, in many cases there is a > > familial pattern of inheritance with variable expression. The > > mechanism for sudden death is not understood completely but is > > believed to be arrhythmogenic in nature. Other factors that were > > found to identify a population at risk for sudden death with HCM > > include young age at diagnosis, syncope at diagnosis, severe > dyspnea, > > or positive family history of sudden death from HCM [14] [15] . > > > > > > {I pass the baton. I believe I will walk.} > > > > > > Regards. > > > > > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > From: > > > > > > Sent: Wednesday, October 13, 2004 9:18 PM > > > Subject: RE: [ ] How much is enuf? > > > > > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > From: jwwright [mailto:jwwright@e...] > > > Sent: Wednesday, October 13, 2004 6:12 PM > > > > > > Subject: Re: [ ] How much exercise is euf? > > > > > > > > > > > > BTW, I've just been reading a Pritikin book, Diet for > Runners, > > and I don't want to sound like I'm pushing pritikin's program, but > > there is some good data on runners who have had heart attacks and > the > > (his) reason for it. Fixx was not the only one. Worth the 3$ I paid > > for it. > > > > > > I submit the one statement, pg 73: " Cholesterol cannot be > > cleaned out by running. Cholesterol cannot be used for fuel. " > That's > > his statement and I've yet to find a confirming source for it. > > Comments? > > > > > > Regards. > > > > > > I hope you're not baiting me to disagree with Pritikin. > > > > > > I never much though about interactions between running and > > cholesterol. About the only associated mechanism that comes to mind > > is that exercise increases HDL which is a scavenger for LDL which > > carries cholesterol. Running is generally healthful and I believe > > improves HDL/LDL ratio, but its not magic. > > > > > > A quick search of cholesterol metabolism on the WWW turns up > a > > lot of words I can't pronounce but no direct association with > energy > > pathways. I suspect out body might " eat " it eventually, but only > > after consuming all glycogen, adipose, protein(?) and whatever else > > it can grab first. I doubt jogging around the block will get us > there. > > > > > > AFAIK the direct way to reduce cholesterol is to bind up the > > bile acids (made from cholesterol) in our digestive track so they > > will be passed instead of being recaptured for re-use. There was a > > popular intervention using a specially designed resin that did this > > (cholestrymine ?). I think it was mentioned in an early Walford > book > > as a cheat, allowing one to eat fat while not absorbing it. There > is > > also a popular health food store supplement " Chitosan " based on > some > > marine exoskeleton that is reported to bind to fats. I think these > > have replaced with different medical interventions these days. " I > > don't wan't want no messy powder, give me a neat little pill. " > > > > > > I suspect a dietary intervention combining low ingested > > cholesterol while high in vegetable fiber that will increase the > > transist speed through the intestine, will trap some of the bile > > present while the reduced transit time will also diminish bile > > recapture for re-use. The body will then need to convert existing > > cholesterol to generate new bile to replace what was lost. > > > > > > I'm not sure how or if the amount of dietary fat consumption > > plays into the amount of bile in circulation but since it's purpose > > is to aide in digestion/absorption there may be some relationship. > > > > > > I don't know that the presence or quantity of circulating > > cholesterol is " the " dominant mechanism for heart disease. > > Cholesterol is always present and is essential for multiple bodily > > processes. I seem to recall something about cholesterol being > > deposited in response to some insult. But I could be wrong. > > > > > > JR Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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