Re: Okiinwans

[Guest guest]

I agree that the Okinawan data should be looked at and evaluated

approrpiately and kept in context, whenever and whatever that may be.

Theres a lot to learn from it, as there is from other long lived

population data.

On the contrary though, finding something wrong with the data, doesn't

eliminate the value of all the other good information.

If " good data " is the example and/or the standard, than it should apply

equally to everything.

I am always surprised when people want to negate something due to some

concern with the best data we have to date, and then willing to accept

something else that has no data to support it.

Regards

jeff

[Guest guest]

Hi folks:

With regard to Okinawan lifespan ............... one of the few

things we think we know pretty much for sure is that if people eat

fewer calories they live longer. I remember posting a dutch study

here which, IIRC, found that people (humans) with a BMI of ~22 lived

on average seven years longer than people with a BMI of 30.

We think we know that okinawans eat appreciably fewer calories than

most people in north America. We know also that the average male

lifespan in Okinawa is about three years longer than it is in the

US. (This was discussed in a number of posts in and around #8330

here. Specific numbers were mentioned in two posts, #8336 and

#8339. There are more data to be found in the files here, and one of

those ~8330 posts specifies exactly where to find it).

Given the above, it seems reasonable to infer that ALL of the higher

lifespan enjoyed in Okinawa derives purely from their lower caloric

intake.

My point is that if all the benefit (perhaps more than all the

benefit, three years is not much) can be attributed to their widely

acclaimed CRON lifestyle, then all the other little details about the

okinawans may, net, have little if any benefit.

So what is the major lesson we can learn from the okinawans? EAT

FEWER CALORIES. But then we knew this already, I think?

If the okinawans were to represent absolute perfection in almost all

aspects of nutrition and lifestyle (as some people would have us

believe) then surely they should be expected to get more than three

years out of it?

Rodney.

--- In , " Jeff Novick " <jnovick@p...>

wrote:

>

> I agree that the Okinawan data should be looked at and evaluated

> approrpiately and kept in context, whenever and whatever that may

be.

> Theres a lot to learn from it, as there is from other long lived

> population data.

>

> On the contrary though, finding something wrong with the data,

doesn't

> eliminate the value of all the other good information.

>

> If " good data " is the example and/or the standard, than it should

apply

> equally to everything.

>

> I am always surprised when people want to negate something due to

some

> concern with the best data we have to date, and then willing to

accept

> something else that has no data to support it.

>

> Regards

> jeff

[Guest guest]

Hi Friends! Interesting discussion, keep up!

Live long, the Okinawan way

By LEE IMADA, News Editor

http://www.mauinews.com/story.aspx?id=4999

HONOLULU – Okinawans have the highest per capita population of

centenarians and " the longest disability-free life expectancy on the

planet " with recent studies uncovering why and offering benefits for

all, says a Honolulu researcher, who has been studying this phenomenon

for more than a decade.

While genetics may play a role, " the fact that there are so many of

them, diet and lifestyle have played a strong role in the longevity

phenomenon, " said Dr. Bradley Willcox, a physician-investigator in

geriatrics at the Pacific Health Research Institute and an assistant

professor at the A. Burns School of Medicine at the University of

Hawaii.

Okinawans have a life expectancy of 81.2 years, compared to the

Japanese, who were second at 79.9 years, according to World Health

Organization and Japan Ministry of Health and Welfare data in 1996.

Americans were down the list at 18th at 76.8 years.

As for centenarians, Okinawa had 40 per 100,000; Japan had 20 per

100,000 and the United States, 10 per 100,000, said Willcox, who has

become somewhat of a celebrity having appeared on " Oprah " and CNN and

in a " Time " magazine cover story on centenarians.

In fact, Willcox co-authored a book in 2001, " The Okinawa Program, "

which hit the New York Times Best-seller list. He and his colleagues

have recently released a second book, " The Okinawa Diet Plan. "

His co-authors are his brother Dr. Craig Willcox, an assistant

professor at Okinawa Prefectural University, and Dr. Makoto Suzuki, a

Japanese cardiologist and geriatrician, who is the principal

investigator of the Japan-Ministry-of-Health-funded Okinawa

Centenarian Study, which is currently in its 28th year.

Noting that one of the biggest problems of dieting is keeping the

weight off, the team is in the process of setting up a

subscription-based online diet support site. People will be able to

obtain health information, track their body fat and weight, and

communicate with a dietitian, Willcox said. They hope to have the site

up within a month.

Willcox will be speaking 4 p.m. Saturday at the Maui Okinawan Cultural

Center, 688 Nukuwai Place, in Wailuku. The free event is sponsored by

the Maui Okinawa Kenjin Kai and Worldwide Uchinanchu Business Association.

Longevity is a combination of genes and environment, said Willcox.

There is some evidence that Okinawans possess genetic patterns that

place them at lower risk for auto-immune diseases, such as lupus,

rheumatoid arthritis and multiple sclerosis, the Okinawa Program Web

site says.

That's the good for Okinawan-Americans; the bad news is that

environmental factors play such a great role that those who have left

Okinawa and have adopted different diets and lifestyles have higher

rates of mortality, the Web site says.

Adding to the environmental side of the longevity equation, Willcox

noted how the first generation of Japanese immigrants to Hawaii

" caught up " to the Okinawan immigrants because they were forced to

adopt the " fusion diet " of East Asian cultures, very similar to the

Okinawan diet.

" The Japanese who came from Japan . . . caught up in terms of

longevity mainly because their habits changed akin to what the

Okinawans were doing in Okinawa, " he said.

Lower salt intake meant reduced cases of stroke; more vegetables led

to less stomach cancer, he explained.

First-generation Okinawans and Japanese have the same life expectancy

– though the Japanese still had a higher incidence of stroke, Willcox

said. By the second generation, there was no difference.

The Okinawan diet is " low in calories and high in nutrient density . .

.. with high antioxidant loads, " which has been linked to lower cancer

rates, said Willcox in a phone interview from Oahu on Wednesday.

The purple sweet potato, imo, is the core food, and the diet is high

in vegetables, he said. It is balanced by a high consumption of soy

foods, some fish with limited amounts of pork.

Okinawans have a habit of stir frying foods with turmeric, mugwort

(fuchiba), tofu and peppers. When they prepare pork, it is boiled with

the fat skimmed off the top, he said.

This " really resulted in a distinct cuisine that had very high

antioxidant loads and very few calories, " he said. " They ended up

being lean all their lives. . . . Coupled with physical activity,

farming, fishing, you had the right recipe for longevity, " Willcox added.

Besides living longer, Okinawan centenarians are " highly functional

people " with low rates of Alzheimer's and dementia, Willcox said.

Japanese and Americans reaching their late 80s show a 30 percent

prevalence of dementia, according to a graph on Willcox's Web site.

Okinawan dementia rates are less than 15 percent for that age group.

" There's a cultural component, " said Willcox. " The Okinawans are a

tightly knitted community that has placed an emphasis on 'yuimaru,'

which literally means a connecting circle. "

The elderly are supported and cared for; neighbors check on neighbors,

he said.

" You see 80-year-olds caring for 100-year-olds, " he said. " You get

elder-care networks. "

Okinawa, which is a prefecture of Japan, has always been the " poorest

of the prefectures, yet they have the longest life expectancy, " he

pointed out.

Affluence is not a major component to longevity in Okinawa, but

attitude might be. Okinawans don't watch the clock and don't feel much

tension, Willcox's Web site says. They are optimistic, adaptable,

easygoing, full of self-confidence and unyielding, surveys of the

population have indicated.

As Willcox and his colleagues continue to document this Eden of

longevity, they are seeing the biting of the apple and invasion of

modern outside forces.

" The oldest generation, 65-plus, is still phenomenally healthy, " said

Willcox. " When their generation dies out, we may be seeing the end of

Okinawan longevity. "

" The influence of both American fast food, and the replacement of the

main carbohydrate, the Okinawan sweet potato, with white rice has

impacted negatively on their body fat, " he said.

The sweet potato digests slowly into blood sugar; white rice " is like

eating white sugar " and spikes glycemic load, Willcox explained.

" Those ups and downs of sugar in the blood stream can eventually burn

out the pancreas and cause diabetes, " he said noting that white rice

used to be a rarity in the Okinawan diet.

Pork was a food of celebration, consumed maybe two times a month.

" Now, they get their daily dose of Spam, " he said.

But there's hope.

A cultural revival in Okinawa is occurring, said Willcox. Okinawan

music, language, colors and weavings, and clothing are " in. " Some of

the most popular bands in Japan come from Okinawa, he said.

Okinawan dishes and spices have experienced a " rediscovery " to the

point where some are difficult to obtain in Okinawa because of the

huge demand abroad, said Willcox.

" Things Okinawan are now cool, " he said.

> >

> > I agree that the Okinawan data should be looked at and evaluated

> > approrpiately and kept in context, whenever and whatever that may

> be.

> > Theres a lot to learn from it, as there is from other long lived

> > population data.

> >

> > On the contrary though, finding something wrong with the data,

> doesn't

> > eliminate the value of all the other good information.

> >

> > If " good data " is the example and/or the standard, than it should

> apply

> > equally to everything.

> >

> > I am always surprised when people want to negate something due to

> some

> > concern with the best data we have to date, and then willing to

> accept

> > something else that has no data to support it.

> >

> > Regards

> > jeff

[Guest guest]

Hi Jeff:

Perhaps the commonest common denominator is that Okinawa, Japan,

Crete, and Sardinia are all islands.

It reminds me of a conversation with my brother. When I pointed out

to him that the most dangerous (number of deaths) leisure-time

activity in most countries was fishing, his reply was: " I wonder if

it has something to do with the water! "

Rodney.

--- In , " Jeff Novick " <jnovick@p...>

wrote:

> >>Given the above, it seems reasonable to infer that ALL of the

higher

> lifespan enjoyed in Okinawa derives purely from their lower caloric

> intake.

>

> The assumption out there right now is that the reason the Okinawans

are

> #1 and slightly outlive the mainland japanese is the reduced caloric

> intake. However, that only takes care of the CR part of CR-ON

>

> >>My point is that if all the benefit (perhaps more than all the

> benefit, three years is not much) can be attributed to their widely

> acclaimed CRON lifestyle, then all the other little details about

the

> okinawans may, net, have little if any benefit.

>

> Except for the fact that if you remove point 1, the lower calories,

we

> end up with point 2, which, while I don't know what it is exactly,

it

> has something to do with their lifestyle, which would also be

something

> that they do share or is similar to the mainland japanese, who are

> second in longevity. So, now we have this common denominator. As

we

> move down the list and we get to Italy and greece, we have a

different

> lifestyle, but there are many common denominators.

>

> In these common denominators, lie some important info.

>

> I like to look at it this way. Remember the old IBM punch cards

that

> were used to program computers with the differing " holes " punched in

> them? Well, if we take all the long lived populations of the

world,

> and put their characteristics on an IBM punchcard and lined them

all up

> together and held them up to the light, we would find

certain " punches "

> or holes, the lined up in all of them. Might be 2, might be 10.

My

> guess is there would be several common denominators that showed up

in

> all the long lived populations. To me, those are the most

important

> areas to focus on. In regard to diet, these would be what help

define

> the ON part of CR-ON.

>

> The PIMA Indians are another great example to learn from. Two

identical

> genetic groups, with a huge difference in weight and disease rates.

> When they look at the difference, certain factors arise, that my

guess

> is, have a lot to do with what my punch card experiment would also

have

> shown us to be importan variables.

>

> Now, if you wanted to make a lot of money, and/or market a product,

> pill, supplement, or program, you would find the " punch " that was

> different in any one of the long lived populations than the other,

and

> than market it is as the " solution " . Like Soy, or Olive Oil, or

Coral

> Calcium, or ......

>

> Hmmm, I think I just got an idea for a new product.

>

> Regards

> Jeff

[Guest guest]

Rodney: I think you're making assumptions which don't fit the

evidence. It's not just how much but also the composition of their

diet. I don't agree that just eating less will do it. There are

plenty of low BMI people who die young.

In , " Rodney " <perspect1111@y...> wrote:

>

> Hi folks:

>

> With regard to Okinawan lifespan ............... one of the few

> things we think we know pretty much for sure is that if people eat

> fewer calories they live longer. I remember posting a dutch study

> here which, IIRC, found that people (humans) with a BMI of ~22

lived

> on average seven years longer than people with a BMI of 30.

>

> We think we know that okinawans eat appreciably fewer calories than

> most people in north America. We know also that the average male

> lifespan in Okinawa is about three years longer than it is in the

> US. (This was discussed in a number of posts in and around #8330

> here. Specific numbers were mentioned in two posts, #8336 and

> #8339. There are more data to be found in the files here, and one

of

> those ~8330 posts specifies exactly where to find it).

>

> Given the above, it seems reasonable to infer that ALL of the

higher

> lifespan enjoyed in Okinawa derives purely from their lower caloric

> intake.

>

> My point is that if all the benefit (perhaps more than all the

> benefit, three years is not much) can be attributed to their widely

> acclaimed CRON lifestyle, then all the other little details about

the

> okinawans may, net, have little if any benefit.

>

> So what is the major lesson we can learn from the okinawans? EAT

> FEWER CALORIES. But then we knew this already, I think?

>

> If the okinawans were to represent absolute perfection in almost

all

> aspects of nutrition and lifestyle (as some people would have us

> believe) then surely they should be expected to get more than three

> years out of it?

>

> Rodney.

>

>

> >

> > I agree that the Okinawan data should be looked at and evaluated

> > approrpiately and kept in context, whenever and whatever that may

> be.

> > Theres a lot to learn from it, as there is from other long lived

> > population data.

> >

> > On the contrary though, finding something wrong with the data,

> doesn't

> > eliminate the value of all the other good information.

> >

> > If " good data " is the example and/or the standard, than it should

> apply

> > equally to everything.

> >

> > I am always surprised when people want to negate something due to

> some

> > concern with the best data we have to date, and then willing to

> accept

> > something else that has no data to support it.

> >

> > Regards

> > jeff

[Guest guest]

Hi Francesca:

I strongly agree with your post. Indeed, in my own post I

said: " ......... can be attributed to their widely

acclaimed CRON lifestyle " .

When people talk here about eating fewer calories do we not all

understand that to mean CRON, including the 'ON'?

So there is no disagreement here. Perhaps I should have been more

explicit in each reference I made to caloric intake. I have gotten

into the habit of assuming we all understand the need to get adequate

amounts of protein and fat along with plenty of all the

micronutrients at the same time we reduce calories.

------------------------

So let me attempt to clarify what I was trying to communicate by

elaborating a little. I was not suggesting that it would be a good

idea to eat a small number of calories and ignore nutrient intake.

Rather I was hoping to make the point that while many articles

written about Okinawa give the impression that it is a CRON health

utopia, the difference in lifespan between an apparently very healthy

Okinawan male and his obviously very unhealthy, on average, north

America equivalent, is only three years.

And the difference is three years, even despite the AIDS; poverty

ghettos; violence; smoking and drugs in north America, all of which I

would bet are much less of a problem in Okinawa, and must have the

effect of reducing average lifespan here. I wonder if the average

lifespan in Okinawa is any higher than that in average, non-kinky

america, even with the paunches - i.e. ignoring the murders, drug

deaths, AIDS cases, and smoking-related deaths.

Part of the reason I feel this way is that my impression is that

an 'Okinawa Food Fad' industry is being marketed fairly aggressively

(including books and 'by subscription' websites) the basis of which

is a rather marginal demonstrated benefit.

It seems to me the Okinawa advantage is CRON. And if three years is

the maximum advantage that can be expected from a fairly determined

adherence to CRON and a lot of other things (daily exercise, mental

activities, social support groups, whatever), all supposedly

exhibited by the Okinawans, then it is a disappointingly small return

for a great deal of effort. Some people have alluded to 150 to 160

year lifespans for humans. We know there isn't even one 120 year old

in Okinawa.

I would prefer to believe that the CRON benefit for Okinawans is

fifteen to thirty years (as with the experimental mice) and the

reason they only live three more years than we do is that they are

doing lots of things WRONG. Which we can try to do right. If we can

figure out what they are!

So I personally do not hold up the Okinawans as if they are off-the-

chart in regard to their health status. They are a little ahead of

us, perhaps, depending on which segments of the populations you want

to consider.

> " If the okinawans represent absolute perfection in almost all

> aspects of nutrition and lifestyle (as some people would have us

> believe) then surely they should be expected to get more than three

> years out of it? "

Rodney.

> > >

> > > I agree that the Okinawan data should be looked at and evaluated

> > > approrpiately and kept in context, whenever and whatever that

may

> > be.

> > > Theres a lot to learn from it, as there is from other long lived

> > > population data.

> > >

> > > On the contrary though, finding something wrong with the data,

> > doesn't

> > > eliminate the value of all the other good information.

> > >

> > > If " good data " is the example and/or the standard, than it

should

> > apply

> > > equally to everything.

> > >

> > > I am always surprised when people want to negate something due

to

> > some

> > > concern with the best data we have to date, and then willing

to

> > accept

> > > something else that has no data to support it.

> > >

> > > Regards

> > > jeff

[Guest guest]

Hi Francesca:

Your post prompts me to make (another!) little list. Criteria for a

satisfactory old age (90+):

1. Acceptably mobile.

2. Mentally alert.

3. Free of pain.

4. Senses functioning.

5. Satisfied with lot in life.

6. Maintaining civility/sociability.

7. ............... ????

8. ...............

(Richer than Croesus! etc. etc. etc. )

Rodney.

> Rod: part of the awe towards the Okinawans is the fact that

> they reach their advanced ages vital and healthy. That's the

> important part to me. I hope that I can live to be near 100

> like my mother, without pain, decline or disease. Living to

> be over 120 (which is probably the maximum human lifespan at

> the moment) will be a bonus which I'm not counting on.

> Especially since I have committed many " eating sins " in my

> youth and I am already " of an age " . Also I think other causes

> of death will rear their ugly heads. (Sorry to be

> pessimistic - I hope I'm wrong). Thanks for the

> clarification. I'll try to remember what you mean next time.