Re: Oh Boy!!! Was: Re: polymeal

[Guest guest]

That is consistent with the experience of many people who lose weight.

I'm not sure why it should be controversial. Relevant perhaps for some not

motivated to CR. Of concern perhaps to heavy bodybuilders.

CR has long been noted to reverse a number of lifestyle affected health markers.

This

is just one of those.

Maintaining LBM for me is a QOL issue. FWIW, I just finished my Sunday

resistance workout.

I have low BP so I guess I can afford to gain some LBM :-). Now if I could only

figure out

how to do that without increasing adipose.

JR

-----Original Message-----

From: Rodney [mailto:perspect1111@...]

Sent: Sunday, January 09, 2005 12:14 PM

Subject: [ ] Oh Boy!!! Was: Re: polymeal

Hi folks:

The following should provoke some discussion here, LOL.

I just got around to reading the abstract of the study reported upon

in the link in my post to Rad, below. (Seems like a good idea to

read it, lol).

Here are what seem to me to be the key excerpts from the abstract

that appear highly relevant to us here, edited without, I hope, in

any way changing the meaning:

" Results: ........... BP levels ............. were positively

correlated with LBM. "

Now read that again folks, just in case it didn't sink in. ***LBM***

is positively correlated with BP. And .......... :

" Multiple regression analyses that included ethnicity, sex,

angiotensin II, and measures of body composition indicated the

following: a) LBM was the best predictor of stress systolic

BP ................. "

Abstract source: http://www.sciencedirect.com/science?

_ob=ArticleURL & _udi=B6T0Y-4DR76PW-4 & _user=10 & _handle=B-WA-A-W-AZ-

MsSAYVW-UUA-AAUDYCDYYY-AAUCVBYZYY-YVCYWUYDV-AZ-

U & _fmt=summary & _coverDate=11%2F01%2F2004 & _rdoc=4 & _orig=browse & _srch=%

23toc%234875%232004%23999829988%23527452!

_cdi=4875 & view=c & _acct=C000050221 & _version=1 & _urlVersion=0 & _userid=10 &

md5=61e2936cbf152056f8bc44c6c55b78dd

Or you might want to try instead:

http://snipurl.com/bvsg

So then, are we to presume from this that the loss of LBM in CRON is

a ***positive*** benefit for blood pressure? That seems to be the

implication.

And taking the above one step further, should people on CRON be

making efforts to preserve LBM? Or, on the contrary, should we be

happy to see it decline along with BF% in our transitions from our ad

lib BF%s to 'fully established CRON status' of 5% to 10% BF%?

Just trying to draw logical conclusions from the evidence. (Of

course, as I have noted before, that is a process which not

infrequently can get you into trouble!). BP is only one measure of

human health. How are the other important measures (lipids, cell

proliferation, inflammation, etc ........ ) related to LBM?

Is there a message here for the most muscular among us? Or am I out

to lunch for even thinking to raise the issue? I am quite sure that

this will sound like heresy to many here : ^ )))

Critiques of the above are more than welcome.

Rodney.

--- In , " Rodney " <perspect1111@y...>

wrote:

>

[Guest guest]

LBM is the same as FFM, fat free mass. And my experience is that BP is related to total weight.

TOL:

Fat and muscle cells alike must be serviced by the heart, although we think muscle burns more calories. Do we think the heart cares more about making energy than moving fluid to all cells? Probably not, but it probably moves the fluid in response to the cells requirements. The mitochondria make the energy, not the heart with the BP. Fluid flow allows the making of the energy. So it seems reasonable the BP is related to fluid flow, and associated with LBM. It also seems reasonable the cell with the most requirements drives the heart's response which goes to all cells.

My take is the lower metabolism the less BP and that would show up as increased BP in those with more LBM, especially those USING the LBM. Reduce the LBM and you cant move as much fat around, and certainly not as fast.

Of course I want to preserve LBM - anyone really know how to do that?

Regards.

----- Original Message -----

From: Rodney

Sent: Sunday, January 09, 2005 12:14 PM

Subject: [ ] Oh Boy!!! Was: Re: polymeal

Hi folks:The following should provoke some discussion here, LOL.I just got around to reading the abstract of the study reported upon in the link in my post to Rad, below. (Seems like a good idea to read it, lol).Here are what seem to me to be the key excerpts from the abstract that appear highly relevant to us here, edited without, I hope, in any way changing the meaning:"Results: ........... BP levels ............. were positively correlated with LBM."Now read that again folks, just in case it didn't sink in. ***LBM*** is positively correlated with BP. And .......... :"Multiple regression analyses that included ethnicity, sex, angiotensin II, and measures of body composition indicated the following: a) LBM was the best predictor of stress systolic BP ................. "Abstract source: http://www.sciencedirect.com/science?_ob=ArticleURL & _udi=B6T0Y-4DR76PW-4 & _user=10 & _handle=B-WA-A-W-AZ-MsSAYVW-UUA-AAUDYCDYYY-AAUCVBYZYY-YVCYWUYDV-AZ-U & _fmt=summary & _coverDate=11%2F01%2F2004 & _rdoc=4 & _orig=browse & _srch=%23toc%234875%232004%23999829988%23527452!_cdi=4875 & view=c & _acct=C000050221 & _version=1 & _urlVersion=0 & _userid=10 & md5=61e2936cbf152056f8bc44c6c55b78ddOr you might want to try instead:http://snipurl.com/bvsgSo then, are we to presume from this that the loss of LBM in CRON is a ***positive*** benefit for blood pressure? That seems to be the implication. And taking the above one step further, should people on CRON be making efforts to preserve LBM? Or, on the contrary, should we be happy to see it decline along with BF% in our transitions from our ad lib BF%s to 'fully established CRON status' of 5% to 10% BF%?Just trying to draw logical conclusions from the evidence. (Of course, as I have noted before, that is a process which not infrequently can get you into trouble!). BP is only one measure of human health. How are the other important measures (lipids, cell proliferation, inflammation, etc ........ ) related to LBM?Is there a message here for the most muscular among us? Or am I out to lunch for even thinking to raise the issue? I am quite sure that this will sound like heresy to many here : ^ )))Critiques of the above are more than welcome.Rodney.> > > > Hi,> > > > Some time back, the polymeal was discussed.> > > > Here is the actual article which was printed in the British Medical > > Journal: http://bmj.bmjjournals.com/cgi/content/full/329/7480/1447> > > > At the end of the article is an interesting section called rapid > > responses.> > > > Actually, BMJ is an overall good publication to bookmark.> > > > One related question: what does the group suggest in terms of diet > > and nutrition to bring down stubbornly moderately high blood > pressure?> > > > Best Regards,> > > > Rad

[Guest guest]

Having changed my body fat composition from over 18% fat to 13% fat, I

can provide some anecdotal insight that might be relevant to the LBM

and blood pressure issue. As my body changed over the last couple of

years by shedding 17 pounds, my average systolic BP dropped from 125

to 113. One of the physical differences that I noticed during my

physical transforamtion was that the veins that had been submerged

under a layer of fat are now just below the surface of my skin. This

re-alignment probably reduces the effort needed to pump blood. If the

veins were deep inside the muscle there would be a lot more resistance

to blood flow. I notice that when I exercise, my veins pop out more

prominently, and once I cool off the veins flatten out.

The recovery of BP associated with LBM may be nothing more than the

observation of a mechanical process: when you use your muscles the

fluid stored in the muscles gets squeezed out into the veins

increasing BP, and when muscles relax, BP normalizes rapidly as fluid

gets back into the muscles. People with a higher %BF (less LBM) would

show this mechanism to a lesser extent, because exercise does not

stimulate the fatty tissue to release fluid into the veins.

Tony

===

From: " jwwright " <jwwright@e...>

Date: Sun Jan 9, 2005 2:43 pm

Subject: Re: Oh Boy!!! Was: Re: polymeal

LBM is the same as FFM, fat free mass. And my experience is that BP is

related to total weight.

TOL: Fat and muscle cells alike must be serviced by the heart,

although we think muscle burns more calories. Do we think the heart

cares more about making energy than moving fluid to all cells?

Probably not, but it probably moves the fluid in response to the cells

requirements. The mitochondria make the energy, not the heart with the

BP. Fluid flow allows the making of the energy. So it seems reasonable

the BP is related to fluid flow, and associated with LBM. It also

seems reasonable the cell with the most requirements drives the

heart's response which goes to all cells.

My take is the lower metabolism the less BP and that would show up as

increased BP in those with more LBM, especially those USING the LBM.

Reduce the LBM and you cant move as much fat around, and certainly not

as fast.

Of course I want to preserve LBM - anyone really know how to do that?

Regards.

[Guest guest]

Don't forget the fluid in the interstitial space served by the lymph. Muscle contraction is necessary to pump that fluid out and I think that's the greatest effect exercise has on BP. That fluid, I think holds most of the excess sodium. Interstitial is outside the extracellular and outside the intercellular spaces.

Regards.

----- Original Message -----

From: citpeks

Sent: Sunday, January 09, 2005 4:27 PM

Subject: [ ] Re: Oh Boy!!! Was: Re: polymeal

Having changed my body fat composition from over 18% fat to 13% fat, Ican provide some anecdotal insight that might be relevant to the LBMand blood pressure issue. As my body changed over the last couple ofyears by shedding 17 pounds, my average systolic BP dropped from 125to 113. One of the physical differences that I noticed during myphysical transforamtion was that the veins that had been submergedunder a layer of fat are now just below the surface of my skin. Thisre-alignment probably reduces the effort needed to pump blood. If theveins were deep inside the muscle there would be a lot more resistanceto blood flow. I notice that when I exercise, my veins pop out moreprominently, and once I cool off the veins flatten out.The recovery of BP associated with LBM may be nothing more than theobservation of a mechanical process: when you use your muscles thefluid stored in the muscles gets squeezed out into the veinsincreasing BP, and when muscles relax, BP normalizes rapidly as fluidgets back into the muscles. People with a higher %BF (less LBM) wouldshow this mechanism to a lesser extent, because exercise does notstimulate the fatty tissue to release fluid into the veins. Tony===From: "jwwright" <jwwright@e...>Date: Sun Jan 9, 2005 2:43 pmSubject: Re: Oh Boy!!! Was: Re: polymealLBM is the same as FFM, fat free mass. And my experience is that BP isrelated to total weight.TOL: Fat and muscle cells alike must be serviced by the heart,although we think muscle burns more calories. Do we think the heartcares more about making energy than moving fluid to all cells?Probably not, but it probably moves the fluid in response to the cellsrequirements. The mitochondria make the energy, not the heart with theBP. Fluid flow allows the making of the energy. So it seems reasonablethe BP is related to fluid flow, and associated with LBM. It alsoseems reasonable the cell with the most requirements drives theheart's response which goes to all cells.My take is the lower metabolism the less BP and that would show up asincreased BP in those with more LBM, especially those USING the LBM.Reduce the LBM and you cant move as much fat around, and certainly notas fast.Of course I want to preserve LBM - anyone really know how to do that?Regards.

[Guest guest]

Well the blood gets to the adipose the same way it gets to muscle, right? Arterioles connect all the cells. The "nutrients" in the blood are "let" into the cells - they are not "forced" in by the pressure. The blood flows and if the cell needs something it takes it in, and it passes out of the cell the stuff it wants to get rid of, CO2, eg.

You have water at your faucet and when you want water you open the tap. As I add houses to the water supply the pressure at the pump has to be increased to get the pressure at the farthest house at the right level. The pump cares not what you do with it or if you need it.

If I'm exercising my pressure goes up in response to cells "needing" more nutrients, but actually the cells have stored energy to work with already. It's when we start thinking about "extra" exercise that we begin to think we need more nutrients to the cell. That's so we don't run out of gas half way around the track.

Some people DO run out of gas before others and the pressure goes high, but I'm not sure why. I see this on the treaddy at 4.2 mph. The heart can pump more strokes to get more flow of nutrients if it wants it doesn't have to raise pressure in "normal" activity.

In "trained" athletes, (remember that trained athletes are those that CAN be trained - not the "weaklings"), the athletes will operate at LOWER pressure than I do, or most sedentary types. The most vocal of the exercisers are those who have had success in their endeavor. Maybe they have stronger hearts.

But all hearts age. Perhaps the exercisers age faster doing more exercise, while the sedentary folks, (not necessarily obese people), live longer because they eat less calories and do less work, and incur less aging?

And all I'm saying is that the perspective that LBM is associated with BP, is not all that important. I would think conserving LBM would be important, but not to a guy with BMI > 30 who is all muscle, eg. There are big guys with low BP and little guys with high BP, regardless whether it's adipose or muscle. Once I had gymed, and switched from 234# obese to 225 muscled, my BP did not drop. I had to lose the weight. That tells me something else is at work and that something is unknown.

Perhaps it's related to aging of the mitochondria cells.

So I have several problems:

1) Prevent excess fat from building up anywhere - that means eat less than I burn.

2) Some exercise to move stuff around - peristalsis, lymph flow, whatever.

3) Food composition control to get all the nutrients, minimize "bad" byproducts, fat storage, toxins.

4) Slowly lose weight to a "nominal" level, or as viewed by some CRers a BMI of 20, maybe.

Just my take.

Regards.

----- Original Message -----

From: Rodney

Sent: Sunday, January 09, 2005 5:06 PM

Subject: [ ] Oh Boy!!! Was: Re: polymeal

Hi Tony:Yes. It occurs to me now that if you have more muscle the heart will have to pump harder to get the blood circulated to where it can get to all the cells that need it. In contrast, adipose fat presumably does not need much in the way of blood supply. So BP may be more closely related to LBM than to fat mass.This has come as news to me. But not to everyone here apparently.Rodney.> > Having changed my body fat composition from over 18% fat to 13% fat, I> can provide some anecdotal insight that might be relevant to the LBM> and blood pressure issue. As my body changed over the last couple of> years by shedding 17 pounds, my average systolic BP dropped from 125> to 113. One of the physical differences that I noticed during my> physical transforamtion was that the veins that had been submerged> under a layer of fat are now just below the surface of my skin. This> re-alignment probably reduces the effort needed to pump blood. If the> veins were deep inside the muscle there would be a lot more resistance> to blood flow. I notice that when I exercise, my veins pop out more> prominently, and once I cool off the veins flatten out.> > The recovery of BP associated with LBM may be nothing more than the> observation of a mechanical process: when you use your muscles the> fluid stored in the muscles gets squeezed out into the veins> increasing BP, and when muscles relax, BP normalizes rapidly as fluid> gets back into the muscles. People with a higher %BF (less LBM) would> show this mechanism to a lesser extent, because exercise does not> stimulate the fatty tissue to release fluid into the veins. > > Tony> ===> > From: "jwwright" <jwwright@e...>> Date: Sun Jan 9, 2005 2:43 pm> Subject: Re: Oh Boy!!! Was: Re: polymeal> > LBM is the same as FFM, fat free mass. And my experience is that BP is> related to total weight.> TOL: Fat and muscle cells alike must be serviced by the heart,> although we think muscle burns more calories. Do we think the heart> cares more about making energy than moving fluid to all cells?> Probably not, but it probably moves the fluid in response to the cells> requirements. The mitochondria make the energy, not the heart with the> BP. Fluid flow allows the making of the energy. So it seems reasonable> the BP is related to fluid flow, and associated with LBM. It also> seems reasonable the cell with the most requirements drives the> heart's response which goes to all cells.> > My take is the lower metabolism the less BP and that would show up as> increased BP in those with more LBM, especially those USING the LBM.> Reduce the LBM and you cant move as much fat around, and certainly not> as fast.> > Of course I want to preserve LBM - anyone really know how to do that?> > Regards.

[Guest guest]

Of course, all the body is networked by capillaries. What I was

suggesting was that when the muscles contract, it is like squeezing a

wet sponge and some fluid comes out and the blood pressure goes up.

When you stop squeezing, the fluid can be absorbed back by the sponge

and pressure is normalized. However, there is no mechanism for

" squeezing " fat tissue, only muscles can squeeze. The fat tissue just

goes along with the movement of the muscles. I don't know how I could

squeeze my brain or any adipose tissue, except by application of

external forces.

Blood pressure is at its highest when the muscles are contracted:

http://www.mayoclinic.com/invoke.cfm?objectid=7BEA90EA-45BD-4052-B3CA28CDED7CCD0\

E & MOTT=SM00028

Wightlifting: A bad influence on blood pressure?

Question:

Does regular weightlifting raise blood pressure?

Answer:

Weightlifting on a regular basis shouldn't permanently raise your

blood pressure. However, weightlifting can cause dramatic short-term

increases in blood pressure. Power lifters have had systolic blood

pressures recorded as high as 350 millimeters of mercury (mm Hg).

Normal systolic blood pressure is below 120 mm Hg.

Don't hold your breath during weightlifting. Continue to breathe

freely during each lift. Holding your breath contributes to increasing

blood pressure, which is dangerous for people with high blood

pressure. If you have high blood pressure, lift less weight and

emphasize proper form, increased repetitions, and easy and continuous

breathing during your lifts.

>>>

Tony

>>>

From: " jwwright " <jwwright@e...>

Date: Mon Jan 10, 2005 10:19 am

Subject: Re: [ ] Oh Boy!!! Was: Re: polymeal

Well the blood gets to the adipose the same way it gets to muscle,

right? Arterioles connect all the cells. The " nutrients " in the blood

are " let " into the cells - they are not " forced " in by the pressure.

The blood flows and if the cell needs something it takes it in, ...

>>>

[Guest guest]

I think it's more likely the BP is raised to "balance" the pressure from muscle contraction to maintain flow. Muscle contraction occurs just standing and moving around.

Parts of the body that don't need the flow - the smooth muscles will contract to limit flow.

Older people can be very low BP - aged heart and they will be reduced mass. So the correlation that's important I think is how to get to that old person status.

Regards.

----- Original Message -----

From: citpeks

Sent: Monday, January 10, 2005 10:18 AM

Subject: [ ] Re: Oh Boy!!! Was: Re: polymeal

Of course, all the body is networked by capillaries. What I wassuggesting was that when the muscles contract, it is like squeezing awet sponge and some fluid comes out and the blood pressure goes up. When you stop squeezing, the fluid can be absorbed back by the spongeand pressure is normalized. However, there is no mechanism for"squeezing" fat tissue, only muscles can squeeze. The fat tissue justgoes along with the movement of the muscles. I don't know how I couldsqueeze my brain or any adipose tissue, except by application ofexternal forces.Blood pressure is at its highest when the muscles are contracted:http://www.mayoclinic.com/invoke.cfm?objectid=7BEA90EA-45BD-4052-B3CA28CDED7CCD0E & MOTT=SM00028Wightlifting: A bad influence on blood pressure?Question:Does regular weightlifting raise blood pressure?Answer:Weightlifting on a regular basis shouldn't permanently raise yourblood pressure. However, weightlifting can cause dramatic short-termincreases in blood pressure. Power lifters have had systolic bloodpressures recorded as high as 350 millimeters of mercury (mm Hg).Normal systolic blood pressure is below 120 mm Hg.Don't hold your breath during weightlifting. Continue to breathefreely during each lift. Holding your breath contributes to increasingblood pressure, which is dangerous for people with high bloodpressure. If you have high blood pressure, lift less weight andemphasize proper form, increased repetitions, and easy and continuousbreathing during your lifts.>>>Tony>>>From: "jwwright" <jwwright@e...>Date: Mon Jan 10, 2005 10:19 amSubject: Re: [ ] Oh Boy!!! Was: Re: polymealWell the blood gets to the adipose the same way it gets to muscle,right? Arterioles connect all the cells. The "nutrients" in the bloodare "let" into the cells - they are not "forced" in by the pressure.The blood flows and if the cell needs something it takes it in, ...>>>