Re: Flax and Prostate Cancer and a lot more

[Guest guest]

Greeting!

Please post references, whole studies much help, (you have,pdf?),

especially monkey study you say.

Low fat does not promote insulin disease!

Many thanks!

>

> Hi all,

>

> A subject one could consider here, when speaking about ALA and

> prostate cancer, and flax and that disease, is that ALA is not flax

> and flax is not ALA. I mean that when you go for flax, you are

> ingesting a lot more than ALA, like flavonoids, lignans and so...,

> and a lot of those substances have strogenic effects, what you could

> consider when studying cancers in organs or tissues that have strogen-

> like receptors as breast or prostate ones.

>

> I have thought a lot about all of your posts reading about this

> subject, and think it's a bit difficult to decide the healthiest

> option here... but the big things in life are not so easy usually!

> Maybe some walnuts provide the needed ALA while will give us w6 too,

> and letting cis-w9 to be the rest of the fat in our diet.

>

> By the other hand, I'm confused about olive oil and % of fat in my

> diet, because I have been following CRON for about 6 years now, and I

> have been fighting for being healthy changing my diet. I went from

> being vegetarian to vegan to mediterranean to paleodiet to raw

> foodist to zone-like now. I have found the real health in the zone-

> like (C/L/P about 30-40/30-40/20/35), but I am concerned about the

> amount of fat in my diet (som times I reach 40+ percentage of energy

> from it!). I saw a paper in wich they fed green monkeys (primates)

> with lard, olive oil and w6 oil, for some years (and a lot of

> cholesterol) and when you looked at blood lipids, the olive oil diet

> was the better (> HDL, < LDL, >HDL/TCHO ratio, less oxidiced

> lipoproteins...) but when they looked at the real thing, studying the

> arteries in the death animal, olive oil and saturated fad feeded

> animals had the same degree of atherosclerosis and blood vessels

> (intima) damage and lost of diameter. w6 feeded ones did better at

> the end, besides lowest HDL. Some light here? Some advises? in my

> life-diet tour, I found I had the lower cholesterol when low-

> fat/vegan diet (70 total, 30 HDL), having medium levels in the

> mediterranean diet (130 total, 60 HDL), and the highest when in the

> paleodiet (204 total cho, 63 HDL); Nowadays (zone-like diet, 4 pounds

> of vegetables a day, 1-2 pounds of fruit, 5 ounces of fish, and

> another 4 of poultry or one/two eggs a day, +fair amounts of walnuts,

> seeds and olive oil) I enjoy levels of 184 TC and 71 HDL. You see,

> conventional medicine would see these data as amazing when looking

> for protection against CVD, but I always remember the monkeys'paper...

>

> Another question...: Walford says in his 120 years diet that when he

> fed the computer with nutrituinal data in order to look for the best

> nutrients per calorie ratio in food, he ever found vegetables, nor

> grains neither pulses nor meats, as beating all records. Then, he

> promoted whole grains, breads, pulses... and no so much vegetables.

> He says Pritikin thought a grain based diet looking at " primitive

> foods " , but that he (Pritikin) was mistaken when thought agricultural

> men being earlier enough. Pritikin promotes a really low-fat diet....

> An yes, I know you have debated this question up to saciety, but low-

> fat have left the way towards high-fat nowadays, and people use olive

> oil as water here (in Europe)... I hope CR was only matter of

> calories, because Low-fat promotes insulin-diseases and High-fat

> blocks arteries in spite however HDL would want to be. Low-prot bad

> (starvation, bad inmune response...); High-prot bad (renal problems,

> calcium loss, cancer promotion...)... Grains, good; grains bad...

> etc. etc. etc... You guess...

>

> OK. Yesterday finished da day making polymeal-chocolates ;-D (I

> blended 100 grams half-defattened cocoa podwer, two bananas (175

> grams), 3 ounces of dried grapes, 4 ounces of lamb's lettuce, 150 ml

> of organic red wine, 70 grams of walnuts -instead of almonds-... and

> thought about adding the 63 grams of fish, but really didn't have the

> courage to do it; this turned in 30 chocolate balls I put into the

> freezer). I enjoyed one of them as the dinner's dessert... WOW! Was

> really good for its 135 kcal (and I can sure you my spouse is not

> going to steal me just one! he, he...)

>

> Cheers.

>

> Willie.

>

> PS: I have the references for all the papers I refered to.

[Guest guest]

Hi Willie:

Yes, it is interesting that while ALA, a component of flax and

soybeans, appears to promote prostate cancer, flax and soy

consumption seem to protect against it.

We can presumably draw the conclusion that it is not the ALA in them

that is protective. Nor does it seem likely that it is the starch.

So the 'prime suspect' for prevention must be in the protein, or some

micronutrient. (Or perhaps the non-ALA fat?).

I imagine 25 years from now each of the various components of many

foods will be available separately for those who want them. Soy

protein already is. Pulp-free orange juice has appeared recently.

My bet is that 'sugar-reduced' orange juice may not be far down the

line. Bran from many sources has been available for a long time.

Perhaps flax free of fat and starch will be available soon? Does

the protein mostly come from the germ of the seed? Perhaps wheat

germ is also protective?

In the meantime we have to try to guess what it is about the japanese

diet that enables them to enjoy low rates of prostate cancer. Tofu

seems to contain almost all the fat from soybeans, but lots of

protein also. Someone here anecdotally reported some months ago that

he attributed a major improvement in his BPH to the addition of soy

protein to his diet. Perhaps the protein in flax is protective?

Rodney.

--- In , " " <rawsunlife@y...>

wrote:

>

> Hi all,

>

> A subject one could consider here, when speaking about ALA and

> prostate cancer, and flax and that disease, is that ALA is not flax

> and flax is not ALA. I mean that when you go for flax, you are

> ingesting a lot more than ALA, like flavonoids, lignans and so...,

> and a lot of those substances have strogenic effects, what you

could

> consider when studying cancers in organs or tissues that have

strogen-

> like receptors as breast or prostate ones.

[Guest guest]

You ask some interesting questions .

>>>

I hope CR was only matter of

calories, because Low-fat promotes insulin-diseases and High-fat

blocks arteries in spite however HDL would want to be. Low-prot bad

(starvation, bad inmune response...); High-prot bad (renal problems,

calcium loss, cancer promotion...)... Grains, good; grains bad...

etc. etc. etc...

>>>

You are right, CR is only about calories, but CRON is about caloric

restriction AND optimal nutrition. The optimum is probably specific

for each person depending on their genetic constitution, allergies,

etc. Keeping track of what you eat is probably the best way of

getting the right balance of nutrients to achieve optimum health.

You say that you have found it in a zone-like diet, as have many other

CR practitioners. That is your answer. Not too many carbs, but not

too few. Not too much protein, but not too little. Not too much fat,

but not too little. Balance and moderation. Ying-Yang, or whatever.

>>>

I'm confused about olive oil and % of fat in my

diet, because I have been following CRON for about 6 years now, and I

have been fighting for being healthy changing my diet. I went from

being vegetarian to vegan to mediterranean to paleodiet to raw

foodist to zone-like now. I have found the real health in the zone-

like (C/L/P about 30-40/30-40/20-35), but I am concerned about the

amount of fat in my diet (sometimes I reach 40+ percentage of energy

from it!). I saw a paper in wich they fed green monkeys (primates)

with lard, olive oil and w6 oil, for some years (and a lot of

cholesterol) and when you looked at blood lipids, the olive oil diet

was the better (> HDL, < LDL, >HDL/TCHO ratio, less oxidiced

lipoproteins...) but when they looked at the real thing, studying the

arteries in the death animal, olive oil and saturated fad feeded

animals had the same degree of atherosclerosis and blood vessels

(intima) damage and lost of diameter. w6 feeded ones did better at

the end, besides lowest HDL. Some light here? Some advises? in my

life-diet tour, I found I had the lower cholesterol when low-

fat/vegan diet (70 total, 30 HDL), having medium levels in the

mediterranean diet (130 total, 60 HDL), and the highest when in the

paleodiet (204 total cho, 63 HDL); Nowadays (zone-like diet, 4 pounds

of vegetables a day, 1-2 pounds of fruit, 5 ounces of fish, and

another 4 of poultry or one/two eggs a day, +fair amounts of walnuts,

seeds and olive oil) I enjoy levels of 184 TC and 71 HDL. You see,

conventional medicine would see these data as amazing when looking

for protection against CVD, but I always remember the monkeys'paper...

>>>

This topic was covered before in Message 14645 and Message 14624.

The effects that you have experienced can be understood by studying

the Hegsted equation. Myristic acid (C14:0) and to some extent

palmitic acid (C16:0) increase cholesterol, whereas linoleic acid

(C18:2) decreases cholesterol.

The Hegsted Equation:

DeltaTC =

+ 8.45 Delta C14:0

+ 2.12 DeltaC16:0

- 1.87 DeltaC18:2

+ 5.64 DeltaDietaryCholesterol

- 6.24

Where DeltaTC is in mg/dL.

DeltaC14:0, DeltaC16:0, and DeltaC18:2 are in %kcal.

DeltaDietaryCholesterol is in mg/1000 kcal.

A low-fat/vegan diet low in myristic acid, palmitic acid, and dietary

cholesterol will result in low total cholesterol level.

A paleo diet high in animal fats with no sources of linoleic acid will

increase cholesterol.

A diet that balances animal fats with seed fats that are high in

linoleic acid (e.g., sunflower, walnut) will result in moderate

cholesterol levels. In Message 15668 I calculated that for every

fat-trimmed, 8 oz steak that you eat, you need to consume 2 teaspoons

of grape seed oil or safflower oil in your salad to avoid changes in

your cholesterol level.

Tony

=====

Hegsted DM, McGandy RB, Myers ML, Stare FJ, Quantitative effects of

dietary fat on serum cholesterol in man. Am J Clin Nutr. 1965 Nov;

17(5):281-95.

Hegsted DM, Ausman LM, JA, Dallal GE, Dietary fat and serum

lipids: an evaluation of the experimental data. Am J Clin Nutr. 1993

Jun; 57(6):875-83.

Check out my web page on fats:

http://www.scientificpsychic.com/fitness/fattyacids.html

[Guest guest]

Perhaps the lesson here is that rather than looking for some sub-fraction to be

the only beneficial

or bad actor in a given food, there may be some synergy from combinations of

these different

components that are altered or diminished in isolation or when consumed in

disproportionate amounts.

I am hopeful that in 25 years we have a far better understanding of nutrition

which I feel is

currently marginal. I suspect that rather than more individual supplements we

will see food like

combinations perhaps containing effective balanced mixes of nutrients. I suspect

we will see more

engineered foods and public enrichment programs as food choices continue to

become more of a

marketing than health decision.

We (not us) will probably still be eating Big Macs, but they could use enough

engineered food-like

components to act like a reasonable meal, while satisfying the hungry caveman we

will still surely

be....

JR

-----Original Message-----

From: Rodney [mailto:perspect1111@...]

Sent: Tuesday, December 21, 2004 9:34 AM

Subject: [ ] Re: Flax and Prostate Cancer and a lot more

Hi Willie:

Yes, it is interesting that while ALA, a component of flax and

soybeans, appears to promote prostate cancer, flax and soy

consumption seem to protect against it.

We can presumably draw the conclusion that it is not the ALA in them

that is protective. Nor does it seem likely that it is the starch.

So the 'prime suspect' for prevention must be in the protein, or some

micronutrient. (Or perhaps the non-ALA fat?).

I imagine 25 years from now each of the various components of many

foods will be available separately for those who want them. Soy

protein already is. Pulp-free orange juice has appeared recently.

My bet is that 'sugar-reduced' orange juice may not be far down the

line. Bran from many sources has been available for a long time.

Perhaps flax free of fat and starch will be available soon? Does

the protein mostly come from the germ of the seed? Perhaps wheat

germ is also protective?

In the meantime we have to try to guess what it is about the japanese

diet that enables them to enjoy low rates of prostate cancer. Tofu

seems to contain almost all the fat from soybeans, but lots of

protein also. Someone here anecdotally reported some months ago that

he attributed a major improvement in his BPH to the addition of soy

protein to his diet. Perhaps the protein in flax is protective?

Rodney.

--- In , " " <rawsunlife@y...>

wrote:

>

> Hi all,

>

> A subject one could consider here, when speaking about ALA and

> prostate cancer, and flax and that disease, is that ALA is not flax

> and flax is not ALA. I mean that when you go for flax, you are

> ingesting a lot more than ALA, like flavonoids, lignans and so...,

> and a lot of those substances have strogenic effects, what you

could

> consider when studying cancers in organs or tissues that have

strogen-

> like receptors as breast or prostate ones.

[Guest guest]

Hi

I hit the zone a month back then burst right through it and am

currently bobbing along at 45 % fat (85% mono olive oil, extra

virgin organic), 35% protein (mixed sources, fish poultry, whey,

veg) and 25% carbs (veg and fruit) and I feel great, no allergies or

intolerances that have plagued me for years (but I have to avoid all

starch and for some unknown reason citrus fruits and Brussels

sprouts, cabbage, turnips and dried fruit and bananas) - so that's

why my ratios look a bit odd; but as my father died of heart attack

at age 53 I have decided to go for the safest fat which studies show

does not clog arteries. Felton (1994) suggest that there is " a

direct influence of dietary polyunsaturated fatty acids on aortic

plaque formation " through a study on autopsied heart valves.

http://www.pubmed.com - paper number 7934543

how about this rabbit study conclusion " However, sunflower oil

provokes a significant progression in lesion development, whereas

diet enrichment with extra virgin olive oil and, to a lesser extent,

fish oil, stops this progression. PMID: 11996953 [PubMed - indexed

for MEDLINE]

A very recent study on women in 2004 said > " Carbohydrate intake was

positively associated with atherosclerotic progression (P = 0.001),

particularly when the glycemic index was high. Polyunsaturated fat

intake was positively associated with progression when replacing

other fats (P = 0.04) but not when replacing carbohydrate or

protein. Monounsaturated and total fat intakes were not associated

with progression. CONCLUSIONS: In postmenopausal women with

relatively low total fat intake, a greater saturated fat intake is

associated with less progression of coronary atherosclerosis,

whereas carbohydrate intake is associated with a greater

progression.PMID: 15531663

another study (2004) concluded " Intervention studies in East Finland

and Southern Italy have convincingly shown that the coronary risk

profile (lower LDL cholesterol and blood pressure levels) is

improved by a Mediterranean diet. Moreover, the Cretan diet was

tested in cardiac patients and showed a 70 % lower cardiac and all-

causes mortality compared to the control diet.In conclusion,

epidemiological studies and intervention trials suggest that the

Cretan Mediterranean diet lowers the risk of coronary heart disease.

PMID: 15052492 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

A further study CONCLUSIONS: " Olive oil induced lower

triacylglycerol concentrations and higher HDL-cholesterol

concentrations than did butter, without eliciting significant

changes in glucose, insulin, or fatty acids. Furthermore, olive oil

induced higher concentrations of GLP-1, which may indicate a

relation between fatty acid composition, incretin responses, and

triacylglycerol metabolism postprandially in patients with type 2

diabetes. PMID: 12600850 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE

there is a good piece written here on fats and sugars interaction

here: http://www.diabetes-normalsugars.com/book/appendixA_2.shtml

So the theme running through these is that polyunsaturated fat

(peanut, vegi oils, seed oils, some nut oils) will build up arterial

plaque and high blood sugars will also hasten plaque progression.

As to saturated fats they seem to be shown in a brighter light these

days and monounsaturated fat is still the king or Queen of oils for

safety. Both mono and sat fats are sturdy oils so it makes sense

that they will not clog arteries as much as the weaker more rancid

polyunsaturated oils. personally I will be happy if my ldl is 70 or

below and my hdl is above the ldl and my triglycerides are around 50-

80. If that doesn't happen with my current diet then I will mess

about with the fats and sugars until it does (although I cannot

trust more than 3% polyunsaturated fats - they just seem too

dangerous to have much of).

richard ...

[Guest guest]

Hi JR:

I have a vague recollection from about a year ago that some study

suggested certain food combinations are superior to the sum of their

individual components.

Most obviously, eating fat and protein with carbs is superior to

eating just carbs! But it would be nice to see some serious

evidence on a more micro level of these kinds of interactions, if

they exist.

One we already know about might be consuming calcium sources at the

same time as vitamin D sources.

One researcher claimed that the reason whole grain bread is superior

to white bread is because of some mysterious synergy between the

white part and the others. But they declined to offer evidence of

that.

Perhaps this will be an expanding part of food research in coming

years.

Rodney.

--- In , " " <crjohnr@b...>

wrote:

> Perhaps the lesson here is that .......... there may be some

> synergy from combinations of these different components ............

[Guest guest]

I would sum it up this way..

1) all need for EFA can be meet thru whole natural foods without adding

any concentrated sources.

2) Unsaturated fats are less harmful than saturated fats.

3) Hydrogenated Fats and Trans fats are the worst

4) Repalcing saturated fat with unsaturated, without adding additional

calories, may lower risk for CVD and some cancers and possible DB. This

is an " improvement " , not an ideal recommendation.

5) Replacing refined carbohydrates and/or sugar with unsaturated fats

without adding additional calories may lowe risk for CVD, DB and some

cancers. This is an " improvement " , not an ideal recommendation.

6) there is absolutely no evidence than adding either saturated fats, or

unsaturated fats to an otherwise healthy diet will improve the diet.

7) the Med diet was healthy not because of the olive oil, but inspite of

the olive oil. If the olive oil added any benefit, it was because of

some phytonutrients in the olive oil, and not any specific fator fatty

acid.

8) Oils rich in PUFAs are more unstable than Oils rich in MUFA and have

been shown to increase growth rate (but not initiate) of some cancers in

animals and possibly in humans.

Hmm, 2 more would round it out to 10, so

9) I have never seen conclusive evidence putting sat fat in a " healthy "

light. Maybe my light needs new bulbs but....

10) Eat lots (and I mean LOTS) of leafy greens.

Jeff

[Guest guest]

Greeting !

I want to show high carbohydrates do not give insulin disease even

without CR. But results even better with CR! Please,all, read monkey

study I give below:

" Diets. The diet consisted of 71.6% crude carbohydrate, 15.4% crude

protein, 5% crude fat, and 8% fiber by weight. Caloric density was 3.8

kcal/g. Dietary fat was ~55% polyunsaturated, ~25% monounsaturated,

and ~20% saturated and included ~4.5 mg cholesterol/100 g. All monkeys

received two meals each day, at 0700 and 1400. Control monkeys were

fed a specified amount based on National Research Council guidelines,

as previously described (11, 17). CR monkeys received 30% less food

per kilogram body weight than what the age-matched control animals

received, as described previously (11). Quarterly measurements of food

consumption over the course of the study have shown that the average

intake in CR monkeys was 27% less than in controls (Lane, unpublished

data). "

Read? Very very low total fat (~5% of cals),read more:

" Our findings demonstrate that long-term CR without malnutrition

markedly improved risk factors for the development of atherosclerosis

in nonhuman primates eating very low fat diets. CR increased serum

levels of the larger HDL subfractions, HDL2b and HDL1+2b. Body weight,

BMI, and lean body mass were also reduced by long-term CR. The HDL

subfraction result is not a chance occurrence, because it occurred

independently in the three separate age cohorts and because the

increase in HDL2b+1 was inversely related to the decrease in

triglyceride levels caused by CR, as expected from other data on HDL

metabolism (9). In data not presented, from two other analysis cycles

of the same cohorts, CR had similar effects on triglyceride levels and

HDL subfractions. "

Good increase in HDL fractions!

" In the present study, triglyceride and cholesterol levels were

generally low in both CR and control monkeys, consistent with the

low-cholesterol, low-fat diet. "

Nutrient composition stayed same in control and experiment

monkies,change only cals! that make this very good study results.

Both monkies have low triglycerides and cholesterols on same very very

low fat/very high complex carbs diet, but CR monkey do even better. No

insulin disease in all monkies, all monkies do good!

You do agree?

Thank you.

Long Life!

Please read all study:

In the present study, triglyceride and cholesterol levels were

generally low in both CR and control monkeys, consistent with the

low-cholesterol, low-fat diet.

>

> Hi all,

>

> A subject one could consider here, when speaking about ALA and

> prostate cancer, and flax and that disease, is that ALA is not flax

> and flax is not ALA. I mean that when you go for flax, you are

> ingesting a lot more than ALA, like flavonoids, lignans and so...,

> and a lot of those substances have strogenic effects, what you could

> consider when studying cancers in organs or tissues that have strogen-

> like receptors as breast or prostate ones.

>

> I have thought a lot about all of your posts reading about this

> subject, and think it's a bit difficult to decide the healthiest

> option here... but the big things in life are not so easy usually!

> Maybe some walnuts provide the needed ALA while will give us w6 too,

> and letting cis-w9 to be the rest of the fat in our diet.

>

> By the other hand, I'm confused about olive oil and % of fat in my

> diet, because I have been following CRON for about 6 years now, and I

> have been fighting for being healthy changing my diet. I went from

> being vegetarian to vegan to mediterranean to paleodiet to raw

> foodist to zone-like now. I have found the real health in the zone-

> like (C/L/P about 30-40/30-40/20/35), but I am concerned about the

> amount of fat in my diet (som times I reach 40+ percentage of energy

> from it!). I saw a paper in wich they fed green monkeys (primates)

> with lard, olive oil and w6 oil, for some years (and a lot of

> cholesterol) and when you looked at blood lipids, the olive oil diet

> was the better (> HDL, < LDL, >HDL/TCHO ratio, less oxidiced

> lipoproteins...) but when they looked at the real thing, studying the

> arteries in the death animal, olive oil and saturated fad feeded

> animals had the same degree of atherosclerosis and blood vessels

> (intima) damage and lost of diameter. w6 feeded ones did better at

> the end, besides lowest HDL. Some light here? Some advises? in my

> life-diet tour, I found I had the lower cholesterol when low-

> fat/vegan diet (70 total, 30 HDL), having medium levels in the

> mediterranean diet (130 total, 60 HDL), and the highest when in the

> paleodiet (204 total cho, 63 HDL); Nowadays (zone-like diet, 4 pounds

> of vegetables a day, 1-2 pounds of fruit, 5 ounces of fish, and

> another 4 of poultry or one/two eggs a day, +fair amounts of walnuts,

> seeds and olive oil) I enjoy levels of 184 TC and 71 HDL. You see,

> conventional medicine would see these data as amazing when looking

> for protection against CVD, but I always remember the monkeys'paper...

>

> Another question...: Walford says in his 120 years diet that when he

> fed the computer with nutrituinal data in order to look for the best

> nutrients per calorie ratio in food, he ever found vegetables, nor

> grains neither pulses nor meats, as beating all records. Then, he

> promoted whole grains, breads, pulses... and no so much vegetables.

> He says Pritikin thought a grain based diet looking at " primitive

> foods " , but that he (Pritikin) was mistaken when thought agricultural

> men being earlier enough. Pritikin promotes a really low-fat diet....

> An yes, I know you have debated this question up to saciety, but low-

> fat have left the way towards high-fat nowadays, and people use olive

> oil as water here (in Europe)... I hope CR was only matter of

> calories, because Low-fat promotes insulin-diseases and High-fat

> blocks arteries in spite however HDL would want to be. Low-prot bad

> (starvation, bad inmune response...); High-prot bad (renal problems,

> calcium loss, cancer promotion...)... Grains, good; grains bad...

> etc. etc. etc... You guess...

>

> OK. Yesterday finished da day making polymeal-chocolates ;-D (I

> blended 100 grams half-defattened cocoa podwer, two bananas (175

> grams), 3 ounces of dried grapes, 4 ounces of lamb's lettuce, 150 ml

> of organic red wine, 70 grams of walnuts -instead of almonds-... and

> thought about adding the 63 grams of fish, but really didn't have the

> courage to do it; this turned in 30 chocolate balls I put into the

> freezer). I enjoyed one of them as the dinner's dessert... WOW! Was

> really good for its 135 kcal (and I can sure you my spouse is not

> going to steal me just one! he, he...)

>

> Cheers.

>

> Willie.

>

> PS: I have the references for all the papers I refered to.

[Guest guest]

Hi Jeff:

I was rather hoping you might wade in on this one!

With regard to your point 8), I wonder whether the known carcinogenic

effects of, for example, corn oil, are caused by the fats themselves;

a micro-component chemical from the plant; *** or a by-product of the

way the oils are extracted from the plant ***.

The latter is a point Logan has alluded to from time to time. But

either way - whatever the mechanism - it does suggest avoiding it.

It seems to me quite likely the ALA-from-plant-sources >>> prostate-

cancer link could be explained by the method used to extract the oil

from the plant. In other words ALA from plant sources may carry with

it compounds from the processing that are not present in ALA from

animal sources. So it may not be the ALA per se that is the

problem. ALA may be a marker for something else. But ALA from

animal sources is also implicated, apparently. Which somewhat

weakens the case for the 'processing' argument.

Of course in the case of corn, as in the case of peanuts, stale

product is 'famous' as a source of aflatoxin. I do not know whether

that may also be a factor for soybeans and rapeseed.

And does anyone know if aflatoxin is linked to prostate cancer?

Rodney.

--- In , " Jeff Novick " <jnovick@p...>

wrote:

> I would sum it up this way..

>

> 1) all need for EFA can be meet thru whole natural foods without

adding

> any concentrated sources.

>

> 2) Unsaturated fats are less harmful than saturated fats.

>

> 3) Hydrogenated Fats and Trans fats are the worst

>

> 4) Repalcing saturated fat with unsaturated, without adding

additional

> calories, may lower risk for CVD and some cancers and possible DB.

This

> is an " improvement " , not an ideal recommendation.

>

> 5) Replacing refined carbohydrates and/or sugar with unsaturated

fats

> without adding additional calories may lowe risk for CVD, DB and

some

> cancers. This is an " improvement " , not an ideal recommendation.

>

> 6) there is absolutely no evidence than adding either saturated

fats, or

> unsaturated fats to an otherwise healthy diet will improve the diet.

>

> 7) the Med diet was healthy not because of the olive oil, but

inspite of

> the olive oil. If the olive oil added any benefit, it was because

of

> some phytonutrients in the olive oil, and not any specific fator

fatty

> acid.

>

> 8) Oils rich in PUFAs are more unstable than Oils rich in MUFA and

have

> been shown to increase growth rate (but not initiate) of some

cancers in

> animals and possibly in humans.

>

> Hmm, 2 more would round it out to 10, so

>

> 9) I have never seen conclusive evidence putting sat fat in

a " healthy "

> light. Maybe my light needs new bulbs but....

>

> 10) Eat lots (and I mean LOTS) of leafy greens.

>

> Jeff

[Guest guest]

Hi folks:

*** BINGO ***

This, from LEF, suggests a connection between aflatoxin and prostate

cancer. Could this be the simple explanation of the ALA link?

" Another way I3C stops cancer is by keeping carcinogens from damaging

DNA. It also protects DNA from free radicals. In addition, it has

been reported that I3C blocks aflatoxin, a mycotoxin that can cause

prostate cancer. "

http://www.lef.org/magazine/mag2002/may2002_report_prostate_01.html

And this also, the same claim:

" Chapter 30

AFLATOXIN AS A MYCOTOXIN CAUSE OF PROSTATE CANCER

AFLATOXIN-CONTAMINATED

FOODS CAUSE PROSTATE CANCER

AFLATOXIN CAUSES P53 MUTATION

AS FOUND IN PROSTATE CANCER

THE REPORTED CLINICAL FACTS "

From: http://members.aol.com/jfoverlag/fungalbionics/fgmyc-pc.htm

And which product is most likely to be used for processing into oil?

Those that are too grungy/stale to be acceptable for direct

consumption - as a prof at an agricultural university once told me.

For me that is persuasive. Probably that is the explanation.

Rodney.

--- In , " Rodney " <perspect1111@y...>

wrote:

>

> Hi Jeff:

>

> I was rather hoping you might wade in on this one!

>

> With regard to your point 8), I wonder whether the known

carcinogenic

> effects of, for example, corn oil, are caused by the fats

themselves;

> a micro-component chemical from the plant; *** or a by-product of

the

> way the oils are extracted from the plant ***.

>

> The latter is a point Logan has alluded to from time to time. But

> either way - whatever the mechanism - it does suggest avoiding it.

>

> It seems to me quite likely the ALA-from-plant-sources >>> prostate-

> cancer link could be explained by the method used to extract the

oil

> from the plant. In other words ALA from plant sources may carry

with

> it compounds from the processing that are not present in ALA from

> animal sources. So it may not be the ALA per se that is the

> problem. ALA may be a marker for something else. But ALA from

> animal sources is also implicated, apparently. Which somewhat

> weakens the case for the 'processing' argument.

>

> Of course in the case of corn, as in the case of peanuts, stale

> product is 'famous' as a source of aflatoxin. I do not know

whether

> that may also be a factor for soybeans and rapeseed.

>

> And does anyone know if aflatoxin is linked to prostate cancer?

>

> Rodney.

[Guest guest]

>>With regard to your point 8), I wonder whether the known carcinogenic

effects of, for example, corn oil, are caused by the fats themselves; a

micro-component chemical from the plant; *** or a by-product of the way

the oils are extracted from the plant ***. The latter is a point Logan

has alluded to from time to time. But either way - whatever the

mechanism - it does suggest avoiding it.

Last I looked at the evidence, the thought was that the PUFAs have more

double bonds (which are unstable and oxidize) than the MUFAS and

therefore, when extracted into the oil form, they are more likely to

oxidize and it is the oxidization of the fatty acid that is related to

its promoting cancer growth. Flaxseed oil, has many double bonds and

therefore may render it more unstable when extracted than other oils and

thus the potential link between it and Prostate Cancer. The

extraction process also creates high temperatures which also negatively

influence the oil and many vegetable oils do not have high smoke points

to begin with. Even " cold pressed " involves some high temperatures.

I think the aflatoxin is an additional interesting component.

I will double check and see what I can find and post any relevant

data/info.

[Guest guest]

Greeting jeff! I much agree with all.

You will detail *your* diet?? Please. What diet *you* eat? You eat

fish or meat? Most vegs raw or cooked, etc. Please say!

Thank you much.

> I would sum it up this way..

>

> 1) all need for EFA can be meet thru whole natural foods without adding

> any concentrated sources.

>

> 2) Unsaturated fats are less harmful than saturated fats.

>

> 3) Hydrogenated Fats and Trans fats are the worst

>

> 4) Repalcing saturated fat with unsaturated, without adding additional

> calories, may lower risk for CVD and some cancers and possible DB. This

> is an " improvement " , not an ideal recommendation.

>

> 5) Replacing refined carbohydrates and/or sugar with unsaturated fats

> without adding additional calories may lowe risk for CVD, DB and some

> cancers. This is an " improvement " , not an ideal recommendation.

>

> 6) there is absolutely no evidence than adding either saturated fats, or

> unsaturated fats to an otherwise healthy diet will improve the diet.

>

> 7) the Med diet was healthy not because of the olive oil, but inspite of

> the olive oil. If the olive oil added any benefit, it was because of

> some phytonutrients in the olive oil, and not any specific fator fatty

> acid.

>

> 8) Oils rich in PUFAs are more unstable than Oils rich in MUFA and have

> been shown to increase growth rate (but not initiate) of some cancers in

> animals and possibly in humans.

>

> Hmm, 2 more would round it out to 10, so

>

> 9) I have never seen conclusive evidence putting sat fat in a " healthy "

> light. Maybe my light needs new bulbs but....

>

> 10) Eat lots (and I mean LOTS) of leafy greens.

>

> Jeff

[Guest guest]

Sorry, here complete monkey study, please read:

http://ajpendo.physiology.org/cgi/content/full/273/4/E714

>

>

> Greeting !

>

> I want to show high carbohydrates do not give insulin disease even

> without CR. But results even better with CR! Please,all, read monkey

> study I give below:

>

> " Diets. The diet consisted of 71.6% crude carbohydrate, 15.4% crude

> protein, 5% crude fat, and 8% fiber by weight. Caloric density was 3.8

> kcal/g. Dietary fat was ~55% polyunsaturated, ~25% monounsaturated,

> and ~20% saturated and included ~4.5 mg cholesterol/100 g. All monkeys

> received two meals each day, at 0700 and 1400. Control monkeys were

> fed a specified amount based on National Research Council guidelines,

> as previously described (11, 17). CR monkeys received 30% less food

> per kilogram body weight than what the age-matched control animals

> received, as described previously (11). Quarterly measurements of food

> consumption over the course of the study have shown that the average

> intake in CR monkeys was 27% less than in controls (Lane, unpublished

> data). "

>

> Read? Very very low total fat (~5% of cals),read more:

>

> " Our findings demonstrate that long-term CR without malnutrition

> markedly improved risk factors for the development of atherosclerosis

> in nonhuman primates eating very low fat diets. CR increased serum

> levels of the larger HDL subfractions, HDL2b and HDL1+2b. Body weight,

> BMI, and lean body mass were also reduced by long-term CR. The HDL

> subfraction result is not a chance occurrence, because it occurred

> independently in the three separate age cohorts and because the

> increase in HDL2b+1 was inversely related to the decrease in

> triglyceride levels caused by CR, as expected from other data on HDL

> metabolism (9). In data not presented, from two other analysis cycles

> of the same cohorts, CR had similar effects on triglyceride levels and

> HDL subfractions. "

>

> Good increase in HDL fractions!

>

> " In the present study, triglyceride and cholesterol levels were

> generally low in both CR and control monkeys, consistent with the

> low-cholesterol, low-fat diet. "

>

> Nutrient composition stayed same in control and experiment

> monkies,change only cals! that make this very good study results.

>

> Both monkies have low triglycerides and cholesterols on same very very

> low fat/very high complex carbs diet, but CR monkey do even better. No

> insulin disease in all monkies, all monkies do good!

>

> You do agree?

>

> Thank you.

> Long Life!

>

> Please read all study:

> In the present study, triglyceride and cholesterol levels were

> generally low in both CR and control monkeys, consistent with the

> low-cholesterol, low-fat diet.

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

> --- In , " " <rawsunlife@y...>

wrote:

> >

> > Hi all,

> >

> > A subject one could consider here, when speaking about ALA and

> > prostate cancer, and flax and that disease, is that ALA is not flax

> > and flax is not ALA. I mean that when you go for flax, you are

> > ingesting a lot more than ALA, like flavonoids, lignans and so...,

> > and a lot of those substances have strogenic effects, what you could

> > consider when studying cancers in organs or tissues that have strogen-

> > like receptors as breast or prostate ones.

> >

> > I have thought a lot about all of your posts reading about this

> > subject, and think it's a bit difficult to decide the healthiest

> > option here... but the big things in life are not so easy usually!

> > Maybe some walnuts provide the needed ALA while will give us w6 too,

> > and letting cis-w9 to be the rest of the fat in our diet.

> >

> > By the other hand, I'm confused about olive oil and % of fat in my

> > diet, because I have been following CRON for about 6 years now, and I

> > have been fighting for being healthy changing my diet. I went from

> > being vegetarian to vegan to mediterranean to paleodiet to raw

> > foodist to zone-like now. I have found the real health in the zone-

> > like (C/L/P about 30-40/30-40/20/35), but I am concerned about the

> > amount of fat in my diet (som times I reach 40+ percentage of energy

> > from it!). I saw a paper in wich they fed green monkeys (primates)

> > with lard, olive oil and w6 oil, for some years (and a lot of

> > cholesterol) and when you looked at blood lipids, the olive oil diet

> > was the better (> HDL, < LDL, >HDL/TCHO ratio, less oxidiced

> > lipoproteins...) but when they looked at the real thing, studying the

> > arteries in the death animal, olive oil and saturated fad feeded

> > animals had the same degree of atherosclerosis and blood vessels

> > (intima) damage and lost of diameter. w6 feeded ones did better at

> > the end, besides lowest HDL. Some light here? Some advises? in my

> > life-diet tour, I found I had the lower cholesterol when low-

> > fat/vegan diet (70 total, 30 HDL), having medium levels in the

> > mediterranean diet (130 total, 60 HDL), and the highest when in the

> > paleodiet (204 total cho, 63 HDL); Nowadays (zone-like diet, 4 pounds

> > of vegetables a day, 1-2 pounds of fruit, 5 ounces of fish, and

> > another 4 of poultry or one/two eggs a day, +fair amounts of walnuts,

> > seeds and olive oil) I enjoy levels of 184 TC and 71 HDL. You see,

> > conventional medicine would see these data as amazing when looking

> > for protection against CVD, but I always remember the monkeys'paper...

> >

> > Another question...: Walford says in his 120 years diet that when he

> > fed the computer with nutrituinal data in order to look for the best

> > nutrients per calorie ratio in food, he ever found vegetables, nor

> > grains neither pulses nor meats, as beating all records. Then, he

> > promoted whole grains, breads, pulses... and no so much vegetables.

> > He says Pritikin thought a grain based diet looking at " primitive

> > foods " , but that he (Pritikin) was mistaken when thought agricultural

> > men being earlier enough. Pritikin promotes a really low-fat diet....

> > An yes, I know you have debated this question up to saciety, but low-

> > fat have left the way towards high-fat nowadays, and people use olive

> > oil as water here (in Europe)... I hope CR was only matter of

> > calories, because Low-fat promotes insulin-diseases and High-fat

> > blocks arteries in spite however HDL would want to be. Low-prot bad

> > (starvation, bad inmune response...); High-prot bad (renal problems,

> > calcium loss, cancer promotion...)... Grains, good; grains bad...

> > etc. etc. etc... You guess...

> >

> > OK. Yesterday finished da day making polymeal-chocolates ;-D (I

> > blended 100 grams half-defattened cocoa podwer, two bananas (175

> > grams), 3 ounces of dried grapes, 4 ounces of lamb's lettuce, 150 ml

> > of organic red wine, 70 grams of walnuts -instead of almonds-... and

> > thought about adding the 63 grams of fish, but really didn't have the

> > courage to do it; this turned in 30 chocolate balls I put into the

> > freezer). I enjoyed one of them as the dinner's dessert... WOW! Was

> > really good for its 135 kcal (and I can sure you my spouse is not

> > going to steal me just one! he, he...)

> >

> > Cheers.

> >

> > Willie.

> >

> > PS: I have the references for all the papers I refered to.

[Guest guest]

You all have suggested a lot of good information. Here you have the

paper I refered to:

>

> Please post references, whole studies much help, (you have,pdf?),

> especially monkey study you say.

>

http://tinyurl.com/5uthl

Jeff, I also would like how is your daily eating pattern, at the

light of your 10 rules about fats and 'improvements' ;-) I usually

reach +100%RDAs of every micronutrient in tables while eating no

fatty 1200-1400 kcal, so I would want to " add " as much as 100 to 400

more kcal to my diet. I don't want to add grains, flours, more fruit

(I eat a kilo a day) neither potatos, yams... so I find myself eating

more nuts, or olive oil... and that brings me 40-50% kcal of fat from

my diet (usually is 30%P, 40%F, 30%C, whit a minumum of 65 grams of

fiber, all from food only: I use to supplement it).

As far as I have born and grown at the mediterranean coast, I was fed

when a kid a lot of plain boiled vegetables and potataoes, fish,

poultry, tons of bread, some fruit, large raw green salads and all of

it poured with litres and litres of olive oil (and I mean having more

than 100 grams of olive oil -3.5oz- a day usually, besides the fat in

the own foods). You can imagine, it's a hard thing to go against that

tradition!

Cheers.

Willie.

[Guest guest]

6) there is absolutely no evidence than adding either saturated

fats, or

unsaturated fats to an otherwise healthy diet will improve the diet.

> but will it harm me and Alan for that matter. I reach my RDA for

vitamins and minerals by around 1250 calories and need a further 600

calories. So I up the protein a little and add about 50ml olive

oil.

>But what are my alternatives to olive oil - I will not go back to

eating starches (grains, legumes) and have no more room or will

power to increase vegi consumption beyond 1500 grams a day. I

already eat 400g fruit. So where am I to get those extra calories.

The only way I can realistically do it is to cut down on my water a

bit and add one and a half pint, maybe two pints of some kind of

high glycemic fruit (bananas and dried fruit are no good as they

cause intolerance nasal problem) so this leaves me with apples, red

grape juice, mango, pineapple, maple syrup, all which I can easily

get hold of but not organic. Now do I liquidise two pints (or

whatever it takes to get 400-500 cals of this fruit) and drink it

instead of the olive oil? - bare in mind the olive oil is cold

pressed, extra virgin and organic. Which is the lesser evil, in your

opinion ? or I could add a further 100g of whey protein or some

fish/animal protein (legumes and nuts no good for nose) - but that

would take my protein levels to over 50% which I suppose would be

dangerous, though I cannot think of any studies that show this

conclusively in humans. Would excess protein be safer than excess

fruit sugars or fat ?

>my feeling is that olive oil is probably neutral but what about the

fruit? is that just as neutral as it will most defiantly raise my

post-meal blood sugars above 5.0 (90) thus putting extra burden on

kidneys and heart I believe, until my beta cells kick in and turn

the sugar into fat. Or I do a quick hour walk to try and burn it

down.

>So what's the greater poison, olive oil are all that extra fruit,

or extra protein? I don't know the answer so for now I am on the

olive oil as its also a lot cheaper.

9) I have never seen conclusive evidence putting sat fat in

a " healthy "

light. Maybe my light needs new bulbs but....

> agreed, my idea of healthier light is your points 4 & 5, which is

a step up from " saturated fat is the only fat that cloggs arteries " ,

the message I received in the 1990s from most books.

10) Eat lots (and I mean LOTS) of leafy greens.

>As somebody who has obviously followed this for many years, I would

be interested in what you really mean by lots. My idea of lots is

500g broccoli, 200g romaine or mixed lettuce and 200g collard greens

plus a few smaller portions (400g) of other colourful veg and then

400g fruit. Is this lots or do you actually go further ? my sisters

idea of lots is a few florets of broccoli and a tomato, and my

fathers idea of lots was just the tomato.

thanks, richard ...

[Guest guest]

Hi :

Unless you have a family history of alcoholism you could add 150

calories a day of wine (whichever colour you prefer). That is the

standard 'two glasses' I believe. As you will know there are HUGE

health benefits to be obtained from this, and not only for heart

disease. Mortality from ALL causes is reduced substantially by non-

excessive wine consumption. (13,000 subjects, followed for ten years

by the Danish Epidemiological Science Centre).

My opinion, but not everyone's, is that three glasses would be

better. But best to stay with the conventional wisdom on this one,

perhaps.

Rodney.

>

> 6) there is absolutely no evidence than adding either saturated

> fats, or

> unsaturated fats to an otherwise healthy diet will improve the diet.

>

> > but will it harm me and Alan for that matter. I reach my RDA for

> vitamins and minerals by around 1250 calories and need a further

600

> calories. So I up the protein a little and add about 50ml olive

> oil.

>

> >But what are my alternatives to olive oil - I will not go back to

> eating starches (grains, legumes) and have no more room or will

> power to increase vegi consumption beyond 1500 grams a day. I

> already eat 400g fruit. So where am I to get those extra calories.

> The only way I can realistically do it is to cut down on my water a

> bit and add one and a half pint, maybe two pints of some kind of

> high glycemic fruit (bananas and dried fruit are no good as they

> cause intolerance nasal problem) so this leaves me with apples, red

> grape juice, mango, pineapple, maple syrup, all which I can easily

> get hold of but not organic. Now do I liquidise two pints (or

> whatever it takes to get 400-500 cals of this fruit) and drink it

> instead of the olive oil? - bare in mind the olive oil is cold

> pressed, extra virgin and organic. Which is the lesser evil, in

your

> opinion ? or I could add a further 100g of whey protein or some

> fish/animal protein (legumes and nuts no good for nose) - but that

> would take my protein levels to over 50% which I suppose would be

> dangerous, though I cannot think of any studies that show this

> conclusively in humans. Would excess protein be safer than excess

> fruit sugars or fat ?

>

> >my feeling is that olive oil is probably neutral but what about

the

> fruit? is that just as neutral as it will most defiantly raise my

> post-meal blood sugars above 5.0 (90) thus putting extra burden on

> kidneys and heart I believe, until my beta cells kick in and turn

> the sugar into fat. Or I do a quick hour walk to try and burn it

> down.

>

> >So what's the greater poison, olive oil are all that extra fruit,

> or extra protein? I don't know the answer so for now I am on the

> olive oil as its also a lot cheaper.

>

> 9) I have never seen conclusive evidence putting sat fat in

> a " healthy "

> light. Maybe my light needs new bulbs but....

>

> > agreed, my idea of healthier light is your points 4 & 5, which is

> a step up from " saturated fat is the only fat that cloggs

arteries " ,

> the message I received in the 1990s from most books.

>

>

> 10) Eat lots (and I mean LOTS) of leafy greens.

>

> >As somebody who has obviously followed this for many years, I

would

> be interested in what you really mean by lots. My idea of lots is

> 500g broccoli, 200g romaine or mixed lettuce and 200g collard

greens

> plus a few smaller portions (400g) of other colourful veg and then

> 400g fruit. Is this lots or do you actually go further ? my sisters

> idea of lots is a few florets of broccoli and a tomato, and my

> fathers idea of lots was just the tomato.

>

> thanks, richard ...

[Guest guest]

Excellent Rodney, I totally forgot about red wine calories - I am

about 70% of the way to reaching for a bottle of red wine a week and

just some nagging memory of reading stuff in the 1990s about alcohol

destroying brain cells is holding me back. But I never actually got

as far as realising that if I did take red wine then I also get the

calories (I was sort of seeing it through the eyes of a vitamin/drug

and forgot that I can use the calories to reduce olive oil). Now

have got to see what the current thinking is on the brain cell

destruction bit, maybe that's been discredited by now for moderate

amounts of wine ?

richard ....

[Guest guest]

Willie and all:

Personally if I was going to consume an oil for nutritional value I would choose something with a higher Omega 3 content than olive oil. Try fish oil that contains high amounts of EPA and DHA or if vegetarian use flax seed oil or hemp oil. Because modern man has a tendency to eat more grains and grain fed animals versus free range chicken, wild game and grass-fed cattle we have tipped the Omega 3:6 ratio in favor of the Omega 6's. Omega 6 is abundant in plant life such as grains and is even found in lettuce but those veggies are not very abundant in Omega 3.

Personally I consume 1 Tablespoon of Cod Liver oil a day for my EPA, DHA and a food source of Vitamin D and A. I eat my own homemade flax seed crackers when I want bread so I can keep grains out of my diet. I also will put 1 tablespoon of unrefined coconut oil in my veggie juice in the morning to balance out my blood sugar (Hypoglycemic) and to boot my thyroid.

Check out the great book "Fats that Heal, Fats that Kill," by Udo Erasmus. He did his post-graduate studies in genetics and biochemistry and has a PhD in Nutrition. He was the pioneer for pressing and packing cold-pressed, unrefined nutritional oils. He's based out of Vancouver.

___________________________________________________________________________

" I am much more interested in a question on which the 'Salvation of Humanity' depends far more than on any theologians' curio: the question of Nutrition." ~Friedrich Nietzsche, Ecce Homo~Long-Life, Prosperity and Health! E. Sayers, CNC

[Guest guest]

>>Jeff, I also would like how is your daily eating pattern, at the

light of your 10 rules about fats and 'improvements' ;-)

My 10 rules were just in response to the discussion on fats. I think I posted

other info recently that was more overall on some key points I will look in the

archives and if not, repost it, with a sampling of how I do it later today.

Still recovering from the Great Food Fight.

>>I usually reach +100%RDAs of every micronutrient in tables

Just a note. ......

The RDAs were never designed or intended to be used by individuals on a daily

basis. They were designed and intended to evaluate the nutritional adequacy of

the average diet of a population group over a period of time. And to be what

they called " adequate " , the average of the group over the period only had to be

greater than 70% of the RDA. They bumped the RDAs up an average of around 33%

due to the desire to cover everyone based on the standard deviations of each

nutrient and the need to set them to cover the outliers. I think for most

nutrients they went out 2 SDs. I am not saying we cant use them to evaluate

our diets on a daily basis, or hitting a 100% on a daily basis is not good, or

that one day we may not find that more is better, but its good to know why they

were established and how they were intended to be used. I beleive this info is

online and will also check for it.

Regards

Jeff

[Guest guest]

Hi :

In my opinion absolutely a MUST READ: " Mortality Associated with

Moderate Intakes of Wine, Beer, or Spirits " . BMJ 1995;310:1165-9

Prospective study, 6051 men, 7234 women, end point was mortality, ten

to twelve years of follow up.

In short: escalating spirit (liquor) consumption, beyond two drinks

a day, resulted in rapidly escalating mortality. Escalating beer

consumption had no net effect on mortality in either direction up to

five beers a day. Escalating wine consumption was associated with a

strong dose-dependent REDUCTION in mortality. Mortality was reduced

by 49% in those drinking three to five glasses of wine daily compared

with those who never drank wine.

THIS STRONGLY SUGGESTS IT IS NOT THE ALCOHOL THAT CONFERS THE

BENEFIT. Most likely the benefit derives from what wine makers refer

to as the 'products of fermentation' which are absent in liquor,

because it is distilled, and lower in beer because it has much lower

amount of alcohol/fermentation products.

I ought to drink more wine than I do.

If anyone knows of any other substance we can add to our diet for

which a prospective study of over 10,000 subjects, studied for more

than ten years, by an organization (in this case the Danish

Epidemiology Science Centre) that has no obvious axe to grind, has

shown a reduction in mortality as large as or greater than this,

PLEEEASE post it. Thank you.

[The study also took account of smoking; BMI; education; and income]

Rodney.

>

> Excellent Rodney, I totally forgot about red wine calories - I am

> about 70% of the way to reaching for a bottle of red wine a week

and

> just some nagging memory of reading stuff in the 1990s about

alcohol

> destroying brain cells is holding me back. But I never actually got

> as far as realising that if I did take red wine then I also get the

> calories (I was sort of seeing it through the eyes of a

vitamin/drug

> and forgot that I can use the calories to reduce olive oil). Now

> have got to see what the current thinking is on the brain cell

> destruction bit, maybe that's been discredited by now for moderate

> amounts of wine ?

>

> richard ....

[Guest guest]

Hi :

If you and were to add wine to your diets you would

likely get a negative value for biological age in that survey ;;

^ )))

Rodney.

>

> Excellent Rodney, I totally forgot about red wine calories - I am

> about 70% of the way to reaching for a bottle of red wine a week

and

> just some nagging memory of reading stuff in the 1990s about

alcohol

> destroying brain cells is holding me back. But I never actually got

> as far as realising that if I did take red wine then I also get the

> calories (I was sort of seeing it through the eyes of a

vitamin/drug

> and forgot that I can use the calories to reduce olive oil). Now

> have got to see what the current thinking is on the brain cell

> destruction bit, maybe that's been discredited by now for moderate

> amounts of wine ?

>

> richard ....

[Guest guest]

FWIW beer also uses bittering hops to balance malt sweetness... these hops have

anti-oxidant properties so the residual hop oils in

beer promise some health benefit in addition to the ethanol which raises HDL.

I brew my own to avoid commercial additives and because it tastes better. :-)

JR

-----Original Message-----

From: Rodney [mailto:perspect1111@...]

Sent: Wednesday, December 22, 2004 9:18 AM

Subject: [ ] Re: Flax and Prostate Cancer and a lot more

Hi :

In my opinion absolutely a MUST READ: " Mortality Associated with

Moderate Intakes of Wine, Beer, or Spirits " . BMJ 1995;310:1165-9

Prospective study, 6051 men, 7234 women, end point was mortality, ten

to twelve years of follow up.

In short: escalating spirit (liquor) consumption, beyond two drinks

a day, resulted in rapidly escalating mortality. Escalating beer

consumption had no net effect on mortality in either direction up to

five beers a day. Escalating wine consumption was associated with a

strong dose-dependent REDUCTION in mortality. Mortality was reduced

by 49% in those drinking three to five glasses of wine daily compared

with those who never drank wine.

THIS STRONGLY SUGGESTS IT IS NOT THE ALCOHOL THAT CONFERS THE

BENEFIT. Most likely the benefit derives from what wine makers refer

to as the 'products of fermentation' which are absent in liquor,

because it is distilled, and lower in beer because it has much lower

amount of alcohol/fermentation products.

I ought to drink more wine than I do.

If anyone knows of any other substance we can add to our diet for

which a prospective study of over 10,000 subjects, studied for more

than ten years, by an organization (in this case the Danish

Epidemiology Science Centre) that has no obvious axe to grind, has

shown a reduction in mortality as large as or greater than this,

PLEEEASE post it. Thank you.

[Guest guest]

Yes, , Greeting!

See:

Dark Beer May Be Better for the Heart

http://content.health.msn.com/content/article/76/90285.htm

The real beer argument is not " Tastes great " vs. " Less filling. " It's

dark vs. light, and the winner, according to a University of Wisconsin

heart researcher, is dark brew because it can help prevent blood clots.

D. Folts, PhD, professor of medicine and director of the coronary

thrombosis research laboratory at the University of Wisconsin in

Madison, tells WebMD that dark beer is rich in flavonoids, which have

powerful antioxidant effects.

" It's about color. You can see the flavonoids in products on the

shelf, " he says. The rich flavonoid content makes red wine more heart

friendly than white wine and purple grape juice a better choice for

toddlers than white grape juice, he says.

Folts presented his dark beer-light beer study at the American Heart

Association's Scientific Sessions 2003. Folts and his colleagues fed

dark and light beer to dogs that had narrowed arteries in their

hearts, similar to the narrowing observed in people with heart disease.

Only dogs fed dark beer had less stickiness of their blood clotting

cells, says Folts. This was true even though the blood alcohol level

in the dogs was the same.

He says he is currently conducting similar tests in humans. In that

study, volunteers drink two bottles of either light or dark beer a

day. Early indications are that dark beer again is more active at

fighting blood clots than light beer, he says.

" We are also testing purple grape juice and non-alcoholic red wine, "

he says. In each case, the dark beverage demonstrates superiority to

light colored beverages.

Are Flavonoids the Key?

Valentine Fuster, MD, PhD, director of the cardiovascular institute at

Mount Sinai Medical Center in New York, says he is not convinced that

flavonoids add anything to the already well-known heart protective

effect of alcohol. " We know alcohol works, " he tells WebMD. In order

to prove that flavonoids add anything to the alcohol benefit, human

studies are needed.

Also, Fuster, who was not involved in the study but who has studied

the relationship between alcohol and reduced risk for heart disease,

says all alcohol studies should be approached with caution. " There is

always the risk that the data will be misinterpreted and people will

consume too much. Any more than two drinks a day is too much. "

For those who are dark beer drinkers -- or drinkers of red wine or

purple grape juice -- Folts says they can gain the maximum heart

benefit by " drinking these beverages with meals " so that they can

fight the increase in free radicals that occurs when the body begins

to metabolize food. Free radicals trigger oxidative stress, which has

been linked to heart disease and inflammation, says Folts.

--- In , " " <crjohnr@b...>

wrote:

> FWIW beer also uses bittering hops to balance malt sweetness...

these hops have anti-oxidant properties so the residual hop oils in

> beer promise some health benefit in addition to the ethanol which

raises HDL.

>

> I brew my own to avoid commercial additives and because it tastes

better. :-)

>

> JR

>

> -----Original Message-----

> From: Rodney [mailto:perspect1111@y...]

> Sent: Wednesday, December 22, 2004 9:18 AM

>

> Subject: [ ] Re: Flax and Prostate Cancer and a lot more

>

>

>

>

> Hi :

>

> In my opinion absolutely a MUST READ: " Mortality Associated with

> Moderate Intakes of Wine, Beer, or Spirits " . BMJ 1995;310:1165-9

>

> Prospective study, 6051 men, 7234 women, end point was mortality, ten

> to twelve years of follow up.

>

> In short: escalating spirit (liquor) consumption, beyond two drinks

> a day, resulted in rapidly escalating mortality. Escalating beer

> consumption had no net effect on mortality in either direction up to

> five beers a day. Escalating wine consumption was associated with a

> strong dose-dependent REDUCTION in mortality. Mortality was reduced

> by 49% in those drinking three to five glasses of wine daily compared

> with those who never drank wine.

>

> THIS STRONGLY SUGGESTS IT IS NOT THE ALCOHOL THAT CONFERS THE

> BENEFIT. Most likely the benefit derives from what wine makers refer

> to as the 'products of fermentation' which are absent in liquor,

> because it is distilled, and lower in beer because it has much lower

> amount of alcohol/fermentation products.

>

> I ought to drink more wine than I do.

>

> If anyone knows of any other substance we can add to our diet for

> which a prospective study of over 10,000 subjects, studied for more

> than ten years, by an organization (in this case the Danish

> Epidemiology Science Centre) that has no obvious axe to grind, has

> shown a reduction in mortality as large as or greater than this,

> PLEEEASE post it. Thank you.

[Guest guest]

Yeah, but by that assay, I'm already underage to drink!

On Wed, 22 Dec 2004 15:20:37 -0000, Rodney <perspect1111@...> wrote:

>

>

> Hi :

>

> If you and were to add wine to your diets you would

> likely get a negative value for biological age in that survey ;;

> ^ )))

>

> Rodney.

>

>

> >

> > Excellent Rodney, I totally forgot about red wine calories - I am

> > about 70% of the way to reaching for a bottle of red wine a week

> and

> > just some nagging memory of reading stuff in the 1990s about

> alcohol

> > destroying brain cells is holding me back. But I never actually got

> > as far as realising that if I did take red wine then I also get the

> > calories (I was sort of seeing it through the eyes of a

> vitamin/drug

> > and forgot that I can use the calories to reduce olive oil). Now

> > have got to see what the current thinking is on the brain cell

> > destruction bit, maybe that's been discredited by now for moderate

> > amounts of wine ?

> >

> > richard ....

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Ya! Fish oil!

http://www.nutraingredients-usa.com/news/news-ng.asp?n=56941-fish-oil-supplement\

s

or

http://snipurl.com/bjni

On Wed, 22 Dec 2004 14:04:04 EST, TheHouseOLife@...

<TheHouseOLife@...> wrote:

>

> Willie and all:

> Personally if I was going to consume an oil for nutritional value I would

> choose something with a higher Omega 3 content than olive oil. Try fish oil

> that contains high amounts of EPA and DHA or if vegetarian use flax seed oil

> or hemp oil. Because modern man has a tendency to eat more grains and grain

> fed animals versus free range chicken, wild game and grass-fed cattle we

> have tipped the Omega 3:6 ratio in favor of the Omega 6's. Omega 6 is

> abundant in plant life such as grains and is even found in lettuce but those

> veggies are not very abundant in Omega 3.

> Personally I consume 1 Tablespoon of Cod Liver oil a day for my EPA, DHA

> and a food source of Vitamin D and A. I eat my own homemade flax seed

> crackers when I want bread so I can keep grains out of my diet. I also will

> put 1 tablespoon of unrefined coconut oil in my veggie juice in the morning

> to balance out my blood sugar (Hypoglycemic) and to boot my thyroid.

> Check out the great book " Fats that Heal, Fats that Kill, " by Udo Erasmus.

> He did his post-graduate studies in genetics and biochemistry and has a PhD

> in Nutrition. He was the pioneer for pressing and packing cold-pressed,

> unrefined nutritional oils. He's based out of Vancouver.

> ___________________________________________________________________________

> " I am much more interested in a question on which the 'Salvation of

> Humanity' depends far more than on any theologians' curio: the question of

> Nutrition. "

> ~Friedrich Nietzsche, Ecce Homo~

>

>

> Long-Life, Prosperity and Health!

> E. Sayers, CNC

>

>