Guest guest Posted January 2, 2005 Report Share Posted January 2, 2005 CRON or CRAN is not proved in humans but the thesis as stated relates to reduced energy consumption with adequate nutrition. Low body fat is not a reliable marker for that. In fact one very (overly?) restricted individual who is not very active has relatively high %BF compared to others in the group. AFAIK the primary utility of monitoring %BF during CRON is to identify potential safe lower limits, or warning of possible health issues. Generating low %BF by excessive energy output, and or disporprotionately large amounts of LBM are not only unrelated to CRON, but unlikely to coexist with CRON. Moderate activity (including exercise) is suggested to maintain vital capacity. Excessive activity is likely to require higher energy intake. JR -----Original Message----- From: chuinyun [mailto:chuinyun@...] Sent: Saturday, January 01, 2005 5:30 PM Subject: [ ] Low levels of bodyfat Greeting! First thank Francesca for allow me to be part of this great group! I very fortunate to be here. Hope she and all us will be very well in New year and live long life and much happiness. I know we can! Now want to talk about low level bodyfat and CRON. Look at this photos: http://www.drdarden.com/readTopic.do;jsessionid=B09CC1E978D5EDE806F97414FD111AA7\ ..shiva?id=385712 Two photo on page: first at top claim 3.4% bodyfat, very lean muscular; next scroll down half page - Drew Bayne, very lean very muscular man. Do you see photos? Now, my thoughts please. Goal of CRON to lose bodyfat to get lean and low BMI, clean out arteries, get strong efficient bodies. Are these two people practicing CRON without knowing? Obviously they use exercise (hard weight training and aerobics) and diet to get loss of bodyfat. But they more lean than most CRON people but they not try to practice CRON!! I not this lean but I practice CRON. I see they get better CRON results than me! They more lean and more muscular than me! More than you too maybe! Big question please answer: Should we have more weight hard exercise to get better CRON results? Many thanks to all! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 2, 2005 Report Share Posted January 2, 2005 , thank you, interesting reply! Help me understand please how can person keep higher bodyfat while chronically " over restrict " calories? A definition of over restrict is chronically consume less calories than need to maintain basal metabolism. How this person have higher bodyfat if they " over restrict " for long period? What is " excessive " exercise? How much is that? Drew Baye weight trains every 5 days with 4 or 5 exercises, that all. But each set very hard to fatigue and very fast to next exercise. He do no aerobic or other exercise but claim he very cardio fit! See Drew Baye's own words.. " Last Wednesday's workout went very well. The weight was heavier in all four exercises - low back, compound row, overhead press, and calf raise - and the time under load was high enough in all of them except overhead press to warrant another weight increase next workout. I was moderately wiped out afterwards, but not nauseous, despite moving from exercise to exercise with less than 20 seconds of rest between them. Just enough time to record my TUL, reset the stopwatch and move to the next one. The entire workout, including rest intervals, lasted only a little over five minutes. " http://www.baye.com/journal/bayejournal0016.html You think this too much? Not good for CRON? Why? Help me please understand what is too much and why. I want to exercise but want to do right! Many thanks! --- In , " " <crjohnr@b...> wrote: > CRON or CRAN is not proved in humans but the thesis as stated relates to reduced energy consumption with adequate nutrition. Low > body fat is not a reliable marker for that. In fact one very (overly?) restricted individual who is not very active has relatively > high %BF compared to others in the group. > > AFAIK the primary utility of monitoring %BF during CRON is to identify potential safe lower limits, or warning of possible health > issues. > > Generating low %BF by excessive energy output, and or disporprotionately large amounts of LBM are not only unrelated to CRON, but > unlikely to coexist with CRON. > > Moderate activity (including exercise) is suggested to maintain vital capacity. Excessive activity is likely to require higher > energy intake. > > JR > > -----Original Message----- > From: chuinyun [mailto:chuinyun@a...] > Sent: Saturday, January 01, 2005 5:30 PM > > Subject: [ ] Low levels of bodyfat > > > > > Greeting! First thank Francesca for allow me to be part of this great > group! I very fortunate to be here. Hope she and all us will be very > well in New year and live long life and much happiness. I know we can! > > Now want to talk about low level bodyfat and CRON. > Look at this photos: > http://www.drdarden.com/readTopic.do;jsessionid=B09CC1E978D5EDE806F97414FD111AA7\ ..shiva?id=385712 > Two photo on page: first at top claim 3.4% bodyfat, very lean > muscular; next scroll down half page - Drew Bayne, very lean very > muscular man. > > Do you see photos? > > Now, my thoughts please. Goal of CRON to lose bodyfat to get lean and > low BMI, clean out arteries, get strong efficient bodies. Are these > two people practicing CRON without knowing? Obviously they use > exercise (hard weight training and aerobics) and diet to get loss of > bodyfat. But they more lean than most CRON people but they not try to > practice CRON!! > > I not this lean but I practice CRON. I see they get better CRON > results than me! They more lean and more muscular than me! More than > you too maybe! Big question please answer: Should we have more weight > hard exercise to get better CRON results? > > Many thanks to all! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 2, 2005 Report Share Posted January 2, 2005 Everyone in the group should have read Walford who discusses how much exercise and why exercise is not CRON. In addition I'm always dismayed when people ask questions that are answered in our files. We've spent lots of precious time putting together these files for the benefit of members. Please read them. They contain a wealth of information. See the file: " How much exercise? " under the folder CRON SCIENCE. on 1/1/2005 9:04 PM, chuinyun at chuinyun@... wrote: > > , thank you, interesting reply! > > Help me understand please how can person keep higher bodyfat while > chronically " over restrict " calories? A definition of over restrict is > chronically consume less calories than need to maintain basal > metabolism. How this person have higher bodyfat if they " over > restrict " for long period? > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 2, 2005 Report Share Posted January 2, 2005 I said " relatively " high %BF and made that comparison to other individuals following CRON for years. The thing to keep in mind is I'm talking about " percent " BF. Imagine the exact opposite of your body builder example. Somebody who, due to combining very low activity level with energy restriction has lost significant bone and muscle mass. While the absolute amount of BF may not be very much. As a fraction of the total it could measure higher than other more fit individuals who have significantly more LBM. My Tanita scale, albeit not very accurate says I'm somewhere around 9% BF, but I also weight almost 50# more than this other individual so while I surely have more actual BF, as a percentage I could measure lower. %BF is not very important (as long as it doesn't drop too low), and even then the suggested percentage is based on reasonable physiques, not massive ripped body builders. IMO energy intake and retaining vital capacity is important. What's the sense of slowing aging or living longer if you can't fully enjoy that life while you're living it. I am not comfortable suggesting what is an acceptable exercise level, perhaps because I may be borderline high myself. IMO this falls under personal QOL decisions. If you feel you must run marathons, you will need more calories to support the training. Moderate resistance workouts should not be too calorically demanding, unless you wish to support musculature similar to the linked photos. Good luck finding your personal path... JR -----Original Message----- From: chuinyun [mailto:chuinyun@...] Sent: Saturday, January 01, 2005 8:05 PM Subject: [ ] Re: Low levels of bodyfat , thank you, interesting reply! Help me understand please how can person keep higher bodyfat while chronically " over restrict " calories? A definition of over restrict is chronically consume less calories than need to maintain basal metabolism. How this person have higher bodyfat if they " over restrict " for long period? What is " excessive " exercise? How much is that? Drew Baye weight trains every 5 days with 4 or 5 exercises, that all. But each set very hard to fatigue and very fast to next exercise. He do no aerobic or other exercise but claim he very cardio fit! See Drew Baye's own words.. " Last Wednesday's workout went very well. The weight was heavier in all four exercises - low back, compound row, overhead press, and calf raise - and the time under load was high enough in all of them except overhead press to warrant another weight increase next workout. I was moderately wiped out afterwards, but not nauseous, despite moving from exercise to exercise with less than 20 seconds of rest between them. Just enough time to record my TUL, reset the stopwatch and move to the next one. The entire workout, including rest intervals, lasted only a little over five minutes. " http://www.baye.com/journal/bayejournal0016.html You think this too much? Not good for CRON? Why? Help me please understand what is too much and why. I want to exercise but want to do right! Many thanks! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 2, 2005 Report Share Posted January 2, 2005 Hi Chuin: The following may be in the nature of 'splitting hairs', but perhaps it may be helpful. You say: " ....... Goal of CRON to lose bodyfat to get lean and low BMI, clean out arteries, get strong efficient bodies. ........ " Perhaps that is the goal for some people on CRON. But others would disagree I think. The acronyn 'CRON', as of course you know, stands for CALORIC RESTRICTION with OPTIMAL NUTRITION. Some would argue that the **GOAL** of CRON is to slow the rate of aging and live longer by consuming fewer calories. They might not regard 'getting lean'; having a low BMI; cleaning out arteries; having strong and efficient bodies as, strictly speaking, goals of CRON, but rather results often observed in people who practice CRON. Of course, cleaning out arteries is a highly desirable result of CRON that is apparently already proven in humans. But some months ago someone posted here, I believe it was Warren, that in mouse studies the CRON mice that lived the longest - they had all been fed identically - were those with the highest body ***FAT***. So, getting very lean, or losing lots of body fat may even be undesirable if it is somehow possible to maintain higher fat reserves on the same number of calories. Having a strong body is also clearly desirable because one needs to be able to function well in old age. But there may be a trade off, reducing lifespan, if the additional strength is obtained by extensive exercise entailing higher caloric intake. From what I have read here and elsewhere I do not think anyone knows for certain yet what the optimal amount of exercise is, nor what type of exercise is most beneficial for those on CRON ........... that is: the amount and type of exercise which optimizes lifespan and quality of life (QOL). Apart from other considerations it seems clear that we each have our own, subjective and different, ideas about what amount of exercise is required for a desirable QOL. CRON is far from being a fully understood science. It is only sketchily understood in humans, but well enough understood to see apparently huge cardiovascular benefits. It is much better understood in mice and fruit flies, which we hope are in many respects analogous to us humans. In the next twenty years studies will illuminate many more details about the CRON issues that can be objectively assessed. In the meantime we are each 'placing our bets' on many of these details. Rodney. --- In , " chuinyun " <chuinyun@a...> wrote: > Now, my thoughts please. Goal of CRON to lose bodyfat to get lean and > low BMI, clean out arteries, get strong efficient bodies. Are these > two people practicing CRON without knowing? Obviously they use > exercise (hard weight training and aerobics) and diet to get loss of > bodyfat. But they more lean than most CRON people but they not try to > practice CRON!! > > I not this lean but I practice CRON. I see they get better CRON > results than me! They more lean and more muscular than me! More than > you too maybe! Big question please answer: Should we have more weight > hard exercise to get better CRON results? > > Many thanks to all! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 2, 2005 Report Share Posted January 2, 2005 Hi All, In my view, what has been said in replies to the question is good. It may overlook or not emphasize one thing that I also believe may be an important consideration. Doing isometric body-building exercises generates much muscle mass which may look good and help us in older age, but if we do not require the muscle tissue at that level for such things as displaying them in magazines, avoiding falls in advancing age and impressing members of the other sex, then the excess tissue per se consumes more energy, even at rest. Cheers, Al Pater > > > Now, my thoughts please. Goal of CRON to lose bodyfat to get lean > and > > low BMI, clean out arteries, get strong efficient bodies. Are these > > two people practicing CRON without knowing? Obviously they use > > exercise (hard weight training and aerobics) and diet to get loss of > > bodyfat. But they more lean than most CRON people but they not try > to > > practice CRON!! > > > > I not this lean but I practice CRON. I see they get better CRON > > results than me! They more lean and more muscular than me! More than > > you too maybe! Big question please answer: Should we have more > weight > > hard exercise to get better CRON results? > > > > Many thanks to all! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 2, 2005 Report Share Posted January 2, 2005 CRON requires at least some loss of bodyweight. Given choice between excess muscle and bone OR excess fat, I choose former. Point I make is muscle and bone has utility in longevity, fat does not. Drew Baye calorie restricts but obviously he preferentially lost fat over muscle and bone. Drew Baye eats high carbs and two servings vegetables and fruits each meal. Drew Baye weight exercises every five days for 5 minutes. This not over training. See my point? > > > > > Now, my thoughts please. Goal of CRON to lose bodyfat to get lean > > and > > > low BMI, clean out arteries, get strong efficient bodies. Are > these > > > two people practicing CRON without knowing? Obviously they use > > > exercise (hard weight training and aerobics) and diet to get loss > of > > > bodyfat. But they more lean than most CRON people but they not > try > > to > > > practice CRON!! > > > > > > I not this lean but I practice CRON. I see they get better CRON > > > results than me! They more lean and more muscular than me! More > than > > > you too maybe! Big question please answer: Should we have more > > weight > > > hard exercise to get better CRON results? > > > > > > Many thanks to all! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 3, 2005 Report Share Posted January 3, 2005 As I still attempt to participate in sport, I too find muscle mass useful. Some argue that to maintain more muscle mass requires consuming more calories (agreed). IMO this boils down to a QOL trade-off.... There is no obvious (to me) practical answer to how much muscle mass you " need " . JR -----Original Message----- From: chuinyun [mailto:chuinyun@...] Sent: Sunday, January 02, 2005 2:57 PM Subject: [ ] Re: Low levels of bodyfat CRON requires at least some loss of bodyweight. Given choice between excess muscle and bone OR excess fat, I choose former. Point I make is muscle and bone has utility in longevity, fat does not. Drew Baye calorie restricts but obviously he preferentially lost fat over muscle and bone. Drew Baye eats high carbs and two servings vegetables and fruits each meal. Drew Baye weight exercises every five days for 5 minutes. This not over training. See my point? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 3, 2005 Report Share Posted January 3, 2005 Hi folks: Perhaps it is worth adding to the below that it is what one would rationally expect. If two apparently identical mice have eaten the same number of calories and one has more body fat than the other, then the one with the most fat must have a more efficient metabolism. So, processing fewer calories should be expected to result in a longer life. [Of course if a mouse has more fat because it is eating more, then the opposite would be expected.] Rodney. --- In , " Rodney " <perspect1111@y...> wrote: > But some months ago > someone posted here, I believe it was Warren, that in mouse studies > the CRON mice that lived the longest - they had all been fed > identically - were those with the highest body ***FAT***. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 3, 2005 Report Share Posted January 3, 2005 Can you show me a relationship between muscular development and longevity? Like we have one that relates lifespan to calories tested in mice. By now there should be a relationship that documents how much longer the muscle builders live, right? I think I've never seen one. Eat more, build more muscle, increase weight, operate at a higher metabolism, create more free radicals, IMO, equates to shortened lifespan. If the reverse were true, logically, males would live longer than women, right? Regards. ----- Original Message ----- From: chuinyun Sent: Saturday, January 01, 2005 5:30 PM Subject: [ ] Low levels of bodyfat Greeting! First thank Francesca for allow me to be part of this greatgroup! I very fortunate to be here. Hope she and all us will be verywell in New year and live long life and much happiness. I know we can!Now want to talk about low level bodyfat and CRON. Look at this photos:http://www.drdarden.com/readTopic.do;jsessionid=B09CC1E978D5EDE806F97414FD111AA7.shiva?id=385712Two photo on page: first at top claim 3.4% bodyfat, very leanmuscular; next scroll down half page - Drew Bayne, very lean verymuscular man.Do you see photos?Now, my thoughts please. Goal of CRON to lose bodyfat to get lean andlow BMI, clean out arteries, get strong efficient bodies. Are thesetwo people practicing CRON without knowing? Obviously they useexercise (hard weight training and aerobics) and diet to get loss ofbodyfat. But they more lean than most CRON people but they not try topractice CRON!! I not this lean but I practice CRON. I see they get better CRONresults than me! They more lean and more muscular than me! More thanyou too maybe! Big question please answer: Should we have more weighthard exercise to get better CRON results?Many thanks to all! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 4, 2005 Report Share Posted January 4, 2005 First I thank Francesca for CRON file: " How Much Exercise.html " . She always helpful!! jwwright, Mice cannot weight train. Mice can only do aerobic so no study possible. But WE may weight train! Point I make is brief hard infrequent weight train of ALL muscle in body maybe help our body save bone & muscle tissue that we have at beginning of CRON, so our body lose more % fat and less % bone & muscle while we calorie restrict. Weight train stress bone and muscle of all limbs and spine (if properly done like Drew Baye example), aerobic exercise use only lower limbs, not much upper. Weight training stimulate muscle building (maybe bone building too) different than aerobic, i think better! Adaptation specfic to stimulus! We know this! Maybe better way to keep bone & muscle while CRON. No mice study show this because mice can not weight lift they only run. But Drew Baye show this might be possible and with little time of weight train exercise each week. I ask myself question what is possibilty of weight train protecting and saving much muscle & bone at higher level of calorie restriction? This question very interesting don't you think? Breif hard infrequent weight exercise might spare much bone & muscle while CRON, better than aerobic? That is question I ask. Long life to all! > Can you show me a relationship between muscular development and longevity? > Like we have one that relates lifespan to calories tested in mice. > By now there should be a relationship that documents how much longer the muscle builders live, right? I think I've never seen one. Eat more, build more muscle, increase weight, operate at a higher metabolism, create more free radicals, IMO, equates to shortened lifespan. > If the reverse were true, logically, males would live longer than women, right? > > Regards. > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: chuinyun > > Sent: Saturday, January 01, 2005 5:30 PM > Subject: [ ] Low levels of bodyfat > > > > Greeting! First thank Francesca for allow me to be part of this great > group! I very fortunate to be here. Hope she and all us will be very > well in New year and live long life and much happiness. I know we can! > > Now want to talk about low level bodyfat and CRON. > Look at this photos: > http://www.drdarden.com/readTopic.do;jsessionid=B09CC1E978D5EDE806F97414FD111AA7\ ..shiva?id=385712 > Two photo on page: first at top claim 3.4% bodyfat, very lean > muscular; next scroll down half page - Drew Bayne, very lean very > muscular man. > > Do you see photos? > > Now, my thoughts please. Goal of CRON to lose bodyfat to get lean and > low BMI, clean out arteries, get strong efficient bodies. Are these > two people practicing CRON without knowing? Obviously they use > exercise (hard weight training and aerobics) and diet to get loss of > bodyfat. But they more lean than most CRON people but they not try to > practice CRON!! > > I not this lean but I practice CRON. I see they get better CRON > results than me! They more lean and more muscular than me! More than > you too maybe! Big question please answer: Should we have more weight > hard exercise to get better CRON results? > > Many thanks to all! > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 4, 2005 Report Share Posted January 4, 2005 Misses the point, don't you think? We have probably millions of humans who are doing or have done weight training, or other physical pursuits and yet the fitness orgs offer no data on humans for longevity? What I recall about rats is that some exercise lengthens life and more reduces it, but it's not important with so many people doing excess sports, work, weight training. The question here is not to argue whether weight training does anything other than what lengthens life. There are plenty of sites to argue the best way to strengthen bones, etc. I don't see any weight lifters, or body builders in the longest lived people, say 95 to 115yo. I've searched for data a long time to find something to verify that an exercise in excess of walking or mild running, is conducive to better health or longevity. Mainly because that would be the my exercise of choice. I ended up doing treadmill at 3 mph. My conclusion still is that football players should live a lot longer, but they don't. Surely exercise in combination with weight loss is beneficial to some overweight people, but my argument is simply that humans do work that animals don't do and I see no evidence that manual work extends life. Every time I've had to do manual labor or gym exercise I gained weight and I now view that as the dumbest thing I ever did. So far, only CR extends lifespan, maybe. As to your question, when people build up weight they add muscle and bone to support the weight. When they lose they must reverse the process and no one knows how to do that without muscle loss. If you intend to practice CR, as in weight loss to some set point, you will lose muscle. If you eat less you will burn muscle for energy. You may switch to a lower metabolism and save a few calories, but in the end you will either eat more to sustain a larger body and exercise or you will burn muscle. Regards. ----- Original Message ----- From: chuinyun Sent: Tuesday, January 04, 2005 9:44 AM Subject: [ ] Re: Low levels of bodyfat jwwright,Mice cannot weight train. Mice can only do aerobic so no studypossible. But WE may weight train! Point I make is brief hardinfrequent weight train of ALL muscle in body maybe help our body savebone & muscle tissue that we have at beginning of CRON, so our bodylose more % fat and less % bone & muscle while we calorie restrict. Weight train stress bone and muscle of all limbs and spine (ifproperly done like Drew Baye example), aerobic exercise use only lowerlimbs, not much upper. Weight training stimulate muscle building(maybe bone building too) different than aerobic, i think better!Adaptation specfic to stimulus! We know this! Maybe better way to keepbone & muscle while CRON. No mice study show this because mice can notweight lift they only run. But Drew Baye show this might be possibleand with little time of weight train exercise each week. I ask myselfquestion what is possibilty of weight train protecting and saving muchmuscle & bone at higher level of calorie restriction? This questionvery interesting don't you think?Breif hard infrequent weight exercise might spare much bone & musclewhile CRON, better than aerobic? That is question I ask. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 4, 2005 Report Share Posted January 4, 2005 Hi Chuin/JW: " Proof that reduced caloric intake -- and not reduced fatness -- is the major factor that increases lifespan. -- Warren " The above quote is from post #10454. The post contains a study that suggests it is the reduction in calories that is important for extension of lifespan, not the reduction in adiposity. Rodney. --- In , " jwwright " <jwwright@e...> wrote: > Misses the point, don't you think? We have probably millions of humans who are doing or have done weight training, or other physical pursuits and yet the fitness orgs offer no data on humans for longevity? > > What I recall about rats is that some exercise lengthens life and more reduces it, but it's not important with so many people doing excess sports, work, weight training. > > The question here is not to argue whether weight training does anything other than what lengthens life. There are plenty of sites to argue the best way to strengthen bones, etc. > I don't see any weight lifters, or body builders in the longest lived people, say 95 to 115yo. > > I've searched for data a long time to find something to verify that an exercise in excess of walking or mild running, is conducive to better health or longevity. Mainly because that would be the my exercise of choice. I ended up doing treadmill at 3 mph. My conclusion still is that football players should live a lot longer, but they don't. > > Surely exercise in combination with weight loss is beneficial to some overweight people, but my argument is simply that humans do work that animals don't do and I see no evidence that manual work extends life. Every time I've had to do manual labor or gym exercise I gained weight and I now view that as the dumbest thing I ever did. > > So far, only CR extends lifespan, maybe. > > As to your question, when people build up weight they add muscle and bone to support the weight. When they lose they must reverse the process and no one knows how to do that without muscle loss. If you intend to practice CR, as in weight loss to some set point, you will lose muscle. If you eat less you will burn muscle for energy. You may switch to a lower metabolism and save a few calories, but in the end you will either eat more to sustain a larger body and exercise or you will burn muscle. > > Regards. > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: chuinyun > > Sent: Tuesday, January 04, 2005 9:44 AM > Subject: [ ] Re: Low levels of bodyfat > > > > > jwwright, > Mice cannot weight train. Mice can only do aerobic so no study > possible. But WE may weight train! Point I make is brief hard > infrequent weight train of ALL muscle in body maybe help our body save > bone & muscle tissue that we have at beginning of CRON, so our body > lose more % fat and less % bone & muscle while we calorie restrict. > > Weight train stress bone and muscle of all limbs and spine (if > properly done like Drew Baye example), aerobic exercise use only lower > limbs, not much upper. Weight training stimulate muscle building > (maybe bone building too) different than aerobic, i think better! > Adaptation specfic to stimulus! We know this! Maybe better way to keep > bone & muscle while CRON. No mice study show this because mice can not > weight lift they only run. But Drew Baye show this might be possible > and with little time of weight train exercise each week. I ask myself > question what is possibilty of weight train protecting and saving much > muscle & bone at higher level of calorie restriction? This question > very interesting don't you think? > > Breif hard infrequent weight exercise might spare much bone & muscle > while CRON, better than aerobic? That is question I ask. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 5, 2005 Report Share Posted January 5, 2005 JW, maybe you miss my point. Sorry, my English probably to blame. I have tutor now, should do better! I don't argue for excessive obsessive weight training! No! I argue weight training brief but hard and infrequent is better to keep vitality into older age. Works all limbs and spine, bones stay strong and muscle efficient! Let body adapt to correct stimulus! Each person have different capacity for adaptation. Let body decide how much muscle just be sure to apply correct stimulus! Correct stimulus include yoga too, thank Francesca for this. Yoga apply tension, lengthen muscle fibrils, inhibit aging collagen cross-linking, and perhaps improve connective tissue biomechanics. Thank you Francesca for remindin me of benefit of Yoga! Long Life to you all! (and Me > Misses the point, don't you think? We have probably millions of humans who are doing or have done weight training, or other physical pursuits and yet the fitness orgs offer no data on humans for longevity? > > What I recall about rats is that some exercise lengthens life and more reduces it, but it's not important with so many people doing excess sports, work, weight training. > > The question here is not to argue whether weight training does anything other than what lengthens life. There are plenty of sites to argue the best way to strengthen bones, etc. > I don't see any weight lifters, or body builders in the longest lived people, say 95 to 115yo. > > I've searched for data a long time to find something to verify that an exercise in excess of walking or mild running, is conducive to better health or longevity. Mainly because that would be the my exercise of choice. I ended up doing treadmill at 3 mph. My conclusion still is that football players should live a lot longer, but they don't. > > Surely exercise in combination with weight loss is beneficial to some overweight people, but my argument is simply that humans do work that animals don't do and I see no evidence that manual work extends life. Every time I've had to do manual labor or gym exercise I gained weight and I now view that as the dumbest thing I ever did. > > So far, only CR extends lifespan, maybe. > > As to your question, when people build up weight they add muscle and bone to support the weight. When they lose they must reverse the process and no one knows how to do that without muscle loss. If you intend to practice CR, as in weight loss to some set point, you will lose muscle. If you eat less you will burn muscle for energy. You may switch to a lower metabolism and save a few calories, but in the end you will either eat more to sustain a larger body and exercise or you will burn muscle. > > Regards. > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: chuinyun > > Sent: Tuesday, January 04, 2005 9:44 AM > Subject: [ ] Re: Low levels of bodyfat > > > > > jwwright, > Mice cannot weight train. Mice can only do aerobic so no study > possible. But WE may weight train! Point I make is brief hard > infrequent weight train of ALL muscle in body maybe help our body save > bone & muscle tissue that we have at beginning of CRON, so our body > lose more % fat and less % bone & muscle while we calorie restrict. > > Weight train stress bone and muscle of all limbs and spine (if > properly done like Drew Baye example), aerobic exercise use only lower > limbs, not much upper. Weight training stimulate muscle building > (maybe bone building too) different than aerobic, i think better! > Adaptation specfic to stimulus! We know this! Maybe better way to keep > bone & muscle while CRON. No mice study show this because mice can not > weight lift they only run. But Drew Baye show this might be possible > and with little time of weight train exercise each week. I ask myself > question what is possibilty of weight train protecting and saving much > muscle & bone at higher level of calorie restriction? This question > very interesting don't you think? > > Breif hard infrequent weight exercise might spare much bone & muscle > while CRON, better than aerobic? That is question I ask. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 6, 2005 Report Share Posted January 6, 2005 So if I understand you correctly, the old Atlas system pitting one muscle against another would suffice, and lifting weights is not required? That's sorta what Jeff was saying - resistance training - probably a stretched rubber and move the muscle under load but not enough to build muscle. And that agrees with the concept of calisthenics, moving the body being the primary goal. But not working into the area of "flight or fight" response - building muscle. One of these produces lactic acid - the other not (aerobic?). I think I like the aerobic better to excite the movement of fluid and maybe reduce the fat in cells. Primary reason, there is one who thinks the big problem is blockage in the mitochondria cell walls. If you have HTN and cannot explain it with athero, eg, you begin to think there is another mechanism at work (brilliant deduction right? TIC). But something gets plugged up and it's not always obvious like a coronary artery. So I look at what might cause oxidation of fats and that seems to be free radicals. And I guess the oxidized fat could go anywhere. Anyway, I think my best ploy is to limit calories and I won't have the energy to do extra work. Regards. ----- Original Message ----- From: chuinyun Sent: Wednesday, January 05, 2005 5:20 PM Subject: [ ] Re: Low levels of bodyfat JW, maybe you miss my point. Sorry, my English probably to blame. Ihave tutor now, should do better! :)I don't argue for excessive obsessive weight training! No! I argueweight training brief but hard and infrequent is better to keepvitality into older age. Works all limbs and spine, bones stay strongand muscle efficient!Let body adapt to correct stimulus! Each person have differentcapacity for adaptation. Let body decide how much muscle just be sureto apply correct stimulus!Correct stimulus include yoga too, thank Francesca for this. Yogaapply tension, lengthen muscle fibrils, inhibit aging collagencross-linking, and perhaps improve connective tissue biomechanics.Thank you Francesca for remindin me of benefit of Yoga!Long Life to you all! (and Me Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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