Re: Natural diet, fats, startch etc, was (Rules of the road)

December 23, 2004

>

> I reached around 1200 calories with

> fruit, veg, lean meat (poultry breast),

> small amount of fatty fish,

> berries and a small amount of nuts and 3 eggs a week

> You see my dilemma, if I cannot

> eat the starches, how do I get from my 1200 cals to say 1800-1900

> cals without overdosing on fruit or fats, I just cannot see a way.

>

, I don't know if I may help you (it depends if, at last, it

results I have the " ape's stomach " you spoke about), but I could eat,

in a typical day:

1 kilogram of fruit: 600 kcal

2 kilograms of vegetables (1 raw, 1 steamed): 600 kcal

Fish, or lean poultry breasts or eggs for about 350 kcal worth

Some nuts, olives, olive oil... the rest up to 1800 kcal.

That ends in a 30c/30p/40f diet. RDA's surpassed at all.

I divide it into 2 meals, sequenced as a raw salad, a plate of

steamed vegetables, broiled or steamed lean protein, amd fruit as a

dessert. All of it garnished with some nuts/seeds/oil. That's all.

Regards.

Willie.

December 23, 2004

Greeting!

I eat 10f/10p/80c my stomach do just fine!

Question please, any evidence of atherosclerosis or cancer in paleo

man? What was they life expectancy?

My point, what they eat don't mean best for health! Maybe! But don't

have to be best just because they had to eat it, and research today

shows what is best- ie, mostly plants and fish.

Why you want to eat paleo diet??

Long Life.

>

> Hi Jeff

>

> think I am out of my depth again, but here goes:

>

> " Correct, but separate issue. You could still follow my principles,

> consume no starch foods, or limited amounts and still be on a low

> fat, healthy " > how do you do it, what is your secret, where do the

> calories come from, it can only be the simple sugars (fruit) I

> suppose if you are not big on starch, fat and protein.

>

> " My question is, just where exactly did humans get these foods that

> they supposedly consumed so much of that were high in fat? " > the

> cheese, coconut and butter were just examples I would like taste-

> wise, certainly would not get them in paleo-times.

>

> " Wild game was low in fat, and saturated

> fat and cholesterol. " > I agree that none-animal foods available on

> a year-round-average will be low in fat, but I am not sure about

> your idea of lean game meat. First we will have eaten things like

> insects, pupae, coastal and river fish and reptiles which would have

> different and maybe higher fat ratios than lean meat and second

> there is some evidence that lean meat was not actually favoured by

> paleo man/woman who infact would go for the fatty meats and toss the

> lean way except during times of low food availability, I

> quote " Organ meats favoured in preference to muscle meats in hunter-

> gatherer diets. Observations of modern hunter-gatherers have shown

> that muscle meats (the leanest part of the animal) are least

> preferred, sometimes even being thrown away in times of plenty, in

> preference to the fattier portions. Eaten first are the organs such

> as brains, eyeballs, tongue, kidneys, bone marrow (high in

> monounsaturated fat), and storage fat areas such as mesenteric (gut)

> fat. (Even this gut fat is much less saturated in composition,

> however, than the kind of marbled fat found in the muscle meat of

> modern feedlot animals.) There is no reason to believe earlier

> hunter-gatherers would have been any different in these preferences,

> since other species of animals who eat other animals for food also

> follow the same general order of consumption. "

> http://www.beyondveg.com/nicholson-w/hb/hb-interview1f.shtml#Updates%

> 20Part%201

>

> Also I question (but have no evidence either way) what starches

> would have been available, I don't think our paleo world would have

> been covered in potatoes or carrots or for that matter turnips. So

> that would leave roots which are so damn difficult to dig up and so

> low in energy you would really be a pretty-stupid paleo person if

> you did not just club the rabbits and other animals feeding on the

> root and tuber leaves. But that does not back up the argument that

> paleo man/woman ate a medium fat diet as rabbits are obviously low

> in fat. But when you start playing with ideas, it seems more likely

> to me that the natural diet of our ancestors will have been medium

> to high protein (45-50% calories), perhaps medium fat (35-40%

> calories) and the rest being the carb average from a whole year of

> collecting berries, occasional fruits, some roots/tubers and

> mushrooms) - infact, if anything I suspect mushrooms would have

> formed a large part of our diet as everywhere I look in forests in

> northern England I see mushrooms and living creatures, not much else

> fruit or veg wise, unless I start eating tree bark. My gut feeling

> based on what knowledge I have today is that our natural diet could

> have looked on a macronutrient level more like 33/33/33, but I

> cannot imagine the carbs being much higher.

>

> " Put together a diet anyway you want based on regularly available

> whole natural plant foods (fruits, berries, roots, tubers, veggies),

> regularly available grass fed wild game, some more common fish on

> occassion, and some nuts, seeds and let me know how much fat this

> diet is as a daily average based on the yearly intake. "

>

> > This, is exactly what I did over the last four to five weeks, but

> excluding the roots and tubers as they all aggravated my starch

> problem, and what happened was I reached around 1200 calories with

> fruit, veg, lean meat (poultry breast), small amount of fatty fish,

> berries and a small amount of nuts and 3 eggs a week (these are

> evolutionary natural, albeit like nuts they are only available

> seasonally). The fat intake came out at about 35 grams which as a

> percentage of say 1800 calories was about 18% (ha, very Pritkin

> ish). But with a stomach full of fruit and veg and unable to eat

> starches were do my calories now come from to reach 1800 (olive oil

> and wine are the only options or very concentrated fruit juices).

>

> If I could eat starches then a few sweet potatoes would easily do

> the trick and I would then be eating a pritkin style diet full of

> nutritious food. (but Jeff, I don't know if you actually calorie

> restrict much, so you could I suppose be getting by on 1500

> calories, but I suspect you are more likely eating 2000 cals at

> least. So where do you get your calories (do you manage it via the

> roots & tubers that I cannot have) or are you a secret fruitarian or

> do you have an industrial strength ape-like stomach able to digest 6-

> 7 pounds of veg and fruit a day. You see my dilemma, if I cannot

> eat the starches, how do I get from my 1200 cals to say 1800-1900

> cals without overdosing on fruit or fats, I just cannot see a way.

> And as I don't think straches and fruit are very easy to get in the

> wild during much of the year, then how did paleo person ever manage

> 3000 plus calories a day without getting a fairly big dose of fat

> and protein. It just would not be possible, paleo stomachs can only

> hold so much food (we do not have ape stomachs) before they prevent

> a person from moving around. To consume that many calories from

> fruit and veg would have meant paleo person spent half their time

> too full to move and the other half finding the nearest bathroom.

> Which actually might be possible, but then there would be no time to

> hunt and plenty of time to get hunted down by other animals.

>

> Jeff, I guess you are doing 15f/15p/70c macronutrient-wise, is this

> roughly true ? and how does your stomach cope?

>

> thanks .

December 23, 2004

I was faced with a similar dilemma in attempting to replicate a paleo

diet. There's an important point to consider: our paleolithic

ancestors rarely lived past the age of 40.

What can be gleamed from the scant archeological evidence of the

paleo diet is that it seems to have been low insulinic as compared to

the modern diet in the West. I think you will find that most of the

foods that currently give you problems are not just high in starch,

they're also highly insulinic. Therefore, you can keep in the spirit

of paleo-genetics by ingesting low insulinic, calorie-dense, non-

fruit foods to make up your energy deficit. AFAIK, the list so far

includes only quinoa (and likely some of the other non-

grain " grains " ), slow-cook oatmeal and real pasta made from semolina

flour (which is a very unique grain by having the glucose encased in

a buckyball), in order of nutritional-density.

Red wine is certainly a filler option. However, I would suggest

drinking only cold-processed, non-alcoholized red wine to receive

only positive benefits. Alcohol itself is essentially a highly-

refined, ultra-high grade form of sugar.

Olive oil is an easy, but sloppy way to ingest the health-promoting

polyphenols. The most nutritionally-dense part containing up to 300

times more polyphenols than the oil -- olive water -- is drained off

during processing [PMID: 14664521]. I'd suggest fresh or cold-

processed, water-packed olives instead. There's also at least

one " standardized " olive oil available.

Logan

> 7 pounds of veg and fruit a day. You see my dilemma, if I cannot

> eat the starches, how do I get from my 1200 cals to say 1800-1900

> cals without overdosing on fruit or fats, I just cannot see a way.

> And as I don't think straches and fruit are very easy to get in the

> wild during much of the year, then how did paleo person ever manage

> 3000 plus calories a day without getting a fairly big dose of fat

> and protein. It just would not be possible, paleo stomachs can

only

> hold so much food (we do not have ape stomachs) before they prevent

> a person from moving around. To consume that many calories from

> fruit and veg would have meant paleo person spent half their time

> too full to move and the other half finding the nearest bathroom.

> Which actually might be possible, but then there would be no time

to

> hunt and plenty of time to get hunted down by other animals.

December 23, 2004

Thanks william, your diet would be perfect for me and the fact that

your managing it does make me wonder if I could push my stomach

further, but the main problem with your listed diet is the sheer

weight. I can do 2kg total food, but the 3kg level is something I

have never yet managed. But recently got a blender and food

processor so am going to attempt to use them to some how persuade my

body into getting that extra kg. Your diet looks like a really good

balance.

1 kilogram of fruit: 600 kcal

2 kilograms of vegetables (1 raw, 1 steamed): 600 kcal

Fish, or lean poultry breasts or eggs for about 350 kcal worth

Some nuts, olives, olive oil... the rest up to 1800 kcal.

That ends in a 30c/30p/40f diet. RDA's surpassed at all.

December 24, 2004

>>Jeff, I guess you are doing 15f/15p/70c macronutrient-wise, is this

roughly true ? and how does your stomach cope?

I used to weigh and measure everything I ate for many years thru the

various forms of dietary restriction and control. These days, I don't,

as I now pretty much know what to eat and how much. But yesterday, to

answer the question, I did a rough estimate of what I ate. If asked to

guess, I would have said it is about 1300-1500 calories with a ratio of

60/20/20 (C/P/F) which it came out very close to. Being the holiday

season, I may have eaten more than I usually do.

I don't eat " breakfast " per see, but around 10 am I have a bowl of fruit

and it's in a standard bowl I use and it holds around 2 lbs of fresh

fruit. The bowl is usually about 1/2 mixed berries, 1/2 mixed melons

and sometimes some fresh seasonal fruit within the bowl. I call it my

Basic Everyday Fruit Salad and think everyone could benefit from eating

something similar every day. This morning it was blueberries,

blackberries, rasberries, strawberries, cantaloupe, honeydew,

watermelon. Around 1 - 2 pm I have a huge bowl of salad which is

mostly all vegetables, mostly all raw, mostly greens (romaine) and about

1/2 cup each of cukes, tomatoes, red cabbage, carrots, onions, celery,

peppers, grated raw beet. Sometimes some chick peas 1/2-1 cup. Also a

bowl of steamed veggies, usually from the assortment of Kale, Broccoli,

Baby Bok Choy which I had yesterday but also zucchini, cauliflower,

green beans, asparagus etc etc. I will have a similar salad for dinner

but less steamed veggies and may add in a small portion of fresh fish,

like trout, salmon. Last nite some trout. If I don't, I may add in a

sweet potato or some brown rice, or some Whole Wheat Pasta. In the

evening I usually slice up an apple or two and have about 1 oz of fresh

nuts with it, usually almonds which I did last nite, but will also have

walnuts, brazil, cashews, pecans, etc throughout the week. To me, it

doesn't seem like a lot of salad as I eat it all the time and love it. I

call it the Basic Everyday Vegetable Salad and think everyone could

benefit from eating something similar at least once each day. I think

it is similar to one Walford recommends in the BY120D. In fact, it

isnt much different than the basic eating guidelines he recommends in

the book around page 220 or so. I am allergic to dairy and eggs so

don't use either. I put lemon juice, lime juice or brown rice vinegar

on my salad. I used to only drink water but have recently started

drinking some green tea a couple times a day. I am not always so

" perfect " about following my ideal, as I travel a lot. But, at home and

work, I make sure it is always what I described here or something very

close. I even have restaurants in the area that make these salads and

meals for me and also at work, where I am fortunate to have this kind of

food readily available for me, all day. Soemtimes, I will trade off one

of the salads for a big bowl of fresh made veggie soup, so the contents

are not much different, just in a different form.

So, I ran that thru nutrition program called Food Processor and came up

with the following..

Calories 1496

Carb 63%, Protein 19%, Fat 18%

Protein 76g

SFA 4.4

MUFA 12.6

PUFA 9.67

Fiber 67 g

Soluble Fiber 20 g

Cholesterol 78 mg

Omega 3 2.85

Omega 6 6.5

P:S 2.19/1

Vit A 81021 IU

B1 1.79 mg

B2 1.95 mg

B3 20.30 mg

B6 3 mg

B12 7.14 mcg

Biotin 19.87 mcg

Vit C 858 mg

Vit D 43.36 (I live in Sunny Florida)

Vit E 28.92 mg

Folate 1335 mcg

Vit K 605 mcg

B5 5.68 mg

Boron .87 mcg

Calcium 968 mg

Chloride 512.90

Chromium 62.72 mcg

Copper 2.22 mg

Iodine 36.97

Iron 19.85

Magnesium 457 mg

Manganese 7.93 mg

Molybdenum 185 mcg

Phosphorus 1405 mg

Potassium 7235 mg

Selenium 35.14 (I choose brazil nuts a few times a week) Sodium 525 mg

Zinc 8.4 mg

Comments and/or questions are welcome

Happpy Holidays to All!

Jeff

December 24, 2004

Greeting Jeff,

First thing I notice is no fish for you??

Second thing, no supplements??

Long life to you!

> >>Jeff, I guess you are doing 15f/15p/70c macronutrient-wise, is this

> roughly true ? and how does your stomach cope?

>

> I used to weigh and measure everything I ate for many years thru the

> various forms of dietary restriction and control. These days, I don't,

> as I now pretty much know what to eat and how much. But yesterday, to

> answer the question, I did a rough estimate of what I ate. If asked to

> guess, I would have said it is about 1300-1500 calories with a ratio of

> 60/20/20 (C/P/F) which it came out very close to. Being the holiday

> season, I may have eaten more than I usually do.

>

> I don't eat " breakfast " per see, but around 10 am I have a bowl of fruit

> and it's in a standard bowl I use and it holds around 2 lbs of fresh

> fruit. The bowl is usually about 1/2 mixed berries, 1/2 mixed melons

> and sometimes some fresh seasonal fruit within the bowl. I call it my

> Basic Everyday Fruit Salad and think everyone could benefit from eating

> something similar every day. This morning it was blueberries,

> blackberries, rasberries, strawberries, cantaloupe, honeydew,

> watermelon. Around 1 - 2 pm I have a huge bowl of salad which is

> mostly all vegetables, mostly all raw, mostly greens (romaine) and about

> 1/2 cup each of cukes, tomatoes, red cabbage, carrots, onions, celery,

> peppers, grated raw beet. Sometimes some chick peas 1/2-1 cup. Also a

> bowl of steamed veggies, usually from the assortment of Kale, Broccoli,

> Baby Bok Choy which I had yesterday but also zucchini, cauliflower,

> green beans, asparagus etc etc. I will have a similar salad for dinner

> but less steamed veggies and may add in a small portion of fresh fish,

> like trout, salmon. Last nite some trout. If I don't, I may add in a

> sweet potato or some brown rice, or some Whole Wheat Pasta. In the

> evening I usually slice up an apple or two and have about 1 oz of fresh

> nuts with it, usually almonds which I did last nite, but will also have

> walnuts, brazil, cashews, pecans, etc throughout the week. To me, it

> doesn't seem like a lot of salad as I eat it all the time and love it. I

> call it the Basic Everyday Vegetable Salad and think everyone could

> benefit from eating something similar at least once each day. I think

> it is similar to one Walford recommends in the BY120D. In fact, it

> isnt much different than the basic eating guidelines he recommends in

> the book around page 220 or so. I am allergic to dairy and eggs so

> don't use either. I put lemon juice, lime juice or brown rice vinegar

> on my salad. I used to only drink water but have recently started

> drinking some green tea a couple times a day. I am not always so

> " perfect " about following my ideal, as I travel a lot. But, at home and

> work, I make sure it is always what I described here or something very

> close. I even have restaurants in the area that make these salads and

> meals for me and also at work, where I am fortunate to have this kind of

> food readily available for me, all day. Soemtimes, I will trade off one

> of the salads for a big bowl of fresh made veggie soup, so the contents

> are not much different, just in a different form.

>

> So, I ran that thru nutrition program called Food Processor and came up

> with the following..

>

> Calories 1496

> Carb 63%, Protein 19%, Fat 18%

> Protein 76g

> SFA 4.4

> MUFA 12.6

> PUFA 9.67

> Fiber 67 g

> Soluble Fiber 20 g

> Cholesterol 78 mg

> Omega 3 2.85

> Omega 6 6.5

> P:S 2.19/1

> Vit A 81021 IU

> B1 1.79 mg

> B2 1.95 mg

> B3 20.30 mg

> B6 3 mg

> B12 7.14 mcg

> Biotin 19.87 mcg

> Vit C 858 mg

> Vit D 43.36 (I live in Sunny Florida)

> Vit E 28.92 mg

> Folate 1335 mcg

> Vit K 605 mcg

> B5 5.68 mg

> Boron .87 mcg

> Calcium 968 mg

> Chloride 512.90

> Chromium 62.72 mcg

> Copper 2.22 mg

> Iodine 36.97

> Iron 19.85

> Magnesium 457 mg

> Manganese 7.93 mg

> Molybdenum 185 mcg

> Phosphorus 1405 mg

> Potassium 7235 mg

> Selenium 35.14 (I choose brazil nuts a few times a week) Sodium 525 mg

> Zinc 8.4 mg

>

> Comments and/or questions are welcome

>

> Happpy Holidays to All!

> Jeff

December 25, 2004

Hi All,

" > but less steamed veggies and may add in a small portion of fresh

fish,

> like trout, salmon. Last nite some trout. "

Cheers, Al Pater.

--- In , " chuinyun " <chuinyun@a...>

wrote:

>

> Greeting Jeff,

>

> First thing I notice is no fish for you??

>

> Second thing, no supplements??

>

> Long life to you!

>

> --- In , " Jeff Novick " <jnovick@p...>

wrote:

> > >>Jeff, I guess you are doing 15f/15p/70c macronutrient-wise, is

this

> > roughly true ? and how does your stomach cope?

> >

> > I used to weigh and measure everything I ate for many years thru

the

> > various forms of dietary restriction and control. These days, I

don't,

> > as I now pretty much know what to eat and how much. But

yesterday, to

> > answer the question, I did a rough estimate of what I ate. If

asked to

> > guess, I would have said it is about 1300-1500 calories with a

ratio of

> > 60/20/20 (C/P/F) which it came out very close to. Being the

holiday

> > season, I may have eaten more than I usually do.

> >

> > I don't eat " breakfast " per see, but around 10 am I have a bowl

of fruit

> > and it's in a standard bowl I use and it holds around 2 lbs of

fresh

> > fruit. The bowl is usually about 1/2 mixed berries, 1/2 mixed

melons

> > and sometimes some fresh seasonal fruit within the bowl. I call

it my

> > Basic Everyday Fruit Salad and think everyone could benefit from

eating

> > something similar every day. This morning it was blueberries,

> > blackberries, rasberries, strawberries, cantaloupe, honeydew,

> > watermelon. Around 1 - 2 pm I have a huge bowl of salad which

is

> > mostly all vegetables, mostly all raw, mostly greens (romaine)

and about

> > 1/2 cup each of cukes, tomatoes, red cabbage, carrots, onions,

celery,

> > peppers, grated raw beet. Sometimes some chick peas 1/2-1 cup.

Also a

> > bowl of steamed veggies, usually from the assortment of Kale,

Broccoli,

> > Baby Bok Choy which I had yesterday but also zucchini,

cauliflower,

> > green beans, asparagus etc etc. I will have a similar salad for

dinner

> > but less steamed veggies and may add in a small portion of fresh

fish,

> > like trout, salmon. Last nite some trout. If I don't, I may add

in a

> > sweet potato or some brown rice, or some Whole Wheat Pasta. In

the

> > evening I usually slice up an apple or two and have about 1 oz of

fresh

> > nuts with it, usually almonds which I did last nite, but will

also have

> > walnuts, brazil, cashews, pecans, etc throughout the week. To

me, it

> > doesn't seem like a lot of salad as I eat it all the time and

love it. I

> > call it the Basic Everyday Vegetable Salad and think everyone

could

> > benefit from eating something similar at least once each day. I

think

> > it is similar to one Walford recommends in the BY120D. In fact,

it

> > isnt much different than the basic eating guidelines he

recommends in

> > the book around page 220 or so. I am allergic to dairy and eggs

so

> > don't use either. I put lemon juice, lime juice or brown rice

vinegar

> > on my salad. I used to only drink water but have recently started

> > drinking some green tea a couple times a day. I am not always

so

> > " perfect " about following my ideal, as I travel a lot. But, at

home and

> > work, I make sure it is always what I described here or something

very

> > close. I even have restaurants in the area that make these salads

and

> > meals for me and also at work, where I am fortunate to have this

kind of

> > food readily available for me, all day. Soemtimes, I will trade

off one

> > of the salads for a big bowl of fresh made veggie soup, so the

contents

> > are not much different, just in a different form.

> >

> > So, I ran that thru nutrition program called Food Processor and

came up

> > with the following..

> >

> > Calories 1496

> > Carb 63%, Protein 19%, Fat 18%

> > Protein 76g

> > SFA 4.4

> > MUFA 12.6

> > PUFA 9.67

> > Fiber 67 g

> > Soluble Fiber 20 g

> > Cholesterol 78 mg

> > Omega 3 2.85

> > Omega 6 6.5

> > P:S 2.19/1

> > Vit A 81021 IU

> > B1 1.79 mg

> > B2 1.95 mg

> > B3 20.30 mg

> > B6 3 mg

> > B12 7.14 mcg

> > Biotin 19.87 mcg

> > Vit C 858 mg

> > Vit D 43.36 (I live in Sunny Florida)

> > Vit E 28.92 mg

> > Folate 1335 mcg

> > Vit K 605 mcg

> > B5 5.68 mg

> > Boron .87 mcg

> > Calcium 968 mg

> > Chloride 512.90

> > Chromium 62.72 mcg

> > Copper 2.22 mg

> > Iodine 36.97

> > Iron 19.85

> > Magnesium 457 mg

> > Manganese 7.93 mg

> > Molybdenum 185 mcg

> > Phosphorus 1405 mg

> > Potassium 7235 mg

> > Selenium 35.14 (I choose brazil nuts a few times a week) Sodium

525 mg

> > Zinc 8.4 mg

> >

> > Comments and/or questions are welcome

> >

> > Happpy Holidays to All!

> > Jeff

December 25, 2004

Thanks Jeff, I really was curious as to what you ate and that sums

it up perfectly. If you don't reach a hundred plus years of age

eating that kind of diet, then I don't think any of us will.

Everything seems in perfect balance, very safe, fish few times a

week, lots of carbs in morning for energy, more protein at night to

rebuild body. Enough fat to ward of strokes but not enough to cause

CHD, lots of fruits and veg to reduce inflammation which will

hopefully ward off all heart problems and cancer as well, good dose

of B Vitamins and fantastic amount of vitamin c and folic acid, plus

RDA reached for everything as far as I can see. Lowish vitamin D,

but what the hell, if you live in Florida it doesn't matter. And you

do the lot on 1500 calories and its low glycemic (don't know what

your height is but it looks like your going to be at least 30%

Calorie restriction, maybe 40% if your near six foot on those

calories).

Comparing my own current diet to yours I have similar variety (but

less bulk), but cannot match your folic acid or fibre, my current

pattern is similar to yours though, start day with fruit (but also

have bit of kifir goats milk and a scoop of whey protein) at around

10 am (usually berries, melon and kiwi). Also have lunch around 2pm

but chicken instead of chickpeas plus plenty of salad and a few

steamed veg. And final meal, like you more veg/salad and usually

fish or couple eggs. Plus both salads have plenty of olive oil.

No vitamin supplements ? - well I'm not bothering at the moment

either, cannot see a strong case for adding them to your diet or my

own.

richard ....

January 4, 2005

Jeff, greeting, do you exercise? What your bodyfat % now?

Jeff, if you add 5-6 lbs of MUSCLE when you low body weight of 104

(keep 5% bodyfat!), you think you do better CRON and feel less weak at

~110lbs with more 5-6 lb more muscle than now at 122-126 and with more

% fat?

5lb muscle is good gain. Make big difference in strength!

Which model better for CRON: you be 110lbs with more muscle or you be

~125 with more fat?

Many thanks!

> >>And you do the lot on 1500 calories and its low glycemic (don't know

> what your height is but it looks like your going to be at least 30%

> Calorie restriction, maybe 40% if your near six foot on those calories).

>

> I am around 5'6 (.5) " (at my height, every 1/2 inch counts!) .

>

> Now, I have never been very large at any size or weight throughout my

> life but I figure it to be about 10-15% CR, with 20% CR at most. I have

> been at a much lower weight and BF in the past but was not comfortable

> with my QOL at those times. I have weight as little as 104 with around

> 5% body fat for an extended period. I was always cold. Felt weak.

> Couldn't sit for long as it hurt. Had no libido. Felt irritated often.

> No clothes would fit as I was buying kids clothes, and looked very

> gaunt, and all the other " side effects " you hear about with extreme CR.

> It wasn't fun. And the irony is, that if that is what it takes to

> extend my life without disease, than who would want to live long like

> that?

>

> I have some problems with the whole concept of " set point " and how you

> deduce your " usual " weight. We are not rats in cages and have many other

> variables that come into play just to survive. So, how much is

> typically available and how much is the typical amount of

> activity/exercise we get? This all matters.

>

> And, In observing this ongoing human experiment here on earth, it seems

> that " most " humans, given free access to readily available food, will

> eat as much as they can. We are a rare group. Perhaps it's a built in

> survival mechanism but there are now more adults over 300 lbs and over

> 350 lbs than ever before, and even more over 500 than ever before and

> some upward of a 1000. As the food industy makes more and more food

> available, and cheaper and more concentrated, we humans (at least those

> humans) just keep getting heavier and heavier. Its seems that the human

> " race " is now to obesity.

>

> But, if I was to use some of the concepts, my typical weight as an adult

> was around 135-140.

> I don't ever remember being over 140 (142) and at my height, that is

> only a BMI Of 22.3. SO that was my heaviest. Well take 10% off of

> that, and you get to 122-126, which is right around where I am most of

> the time these days. That's a BMI of 19.4 - 20.0. I may drop to

> 117-122 and keep my BMI around 18.6 -19.4 this year. I think 18.5 is

> the safest and healthiest that we have data to support.

>

> Regards

> Jeff

January 28, 2007

Jeff,

I believe that what you eat (and, on flip side, what you do not eat)

is the epitome of the CRON diet as defined by science today.

My question to you is this: Would or have you made any changes to this

model since then?

Thank you for your as always insightful input to this list.

bill