Re: Natural diet, fats, startch etc, was(Rules of the road)

[Guest guest]

Jeff, You like Okinawans? You think good model for longevity? Ok, I

submit:

" 5. Strong Bones

Nakajimasan, a typical healthy centenarian was reported to be in

particularly good health, completely independent, and still farming.

He is shown here getting his bone density tested by heel bone ultrasound.

Okinawans have about 20% fewer hip fractures than do mainland

Japanese, and Japanese have about 40% fewer hip fractures than

Americans (see Ross PD, et al. Am J Epidemiol 1991;133:801-9). Our

research on Okinawan elders showed that their bone density, when

adjusted for body size, is similar to Americans, and like the rest of

us they continue to lose bone mass as they get older, but possibly at

a slower rate. We compared bone mineral density in a group of

Okinawans to two groups from mainland Japan and found that by age

forty for women and age fifty for men the groups began to diverge. The

Japanese began to lose significantly more calcium from their bones

than the Okinawans, suggesting the Okinawans preserve their bone

density at healthy levels for longer periods of time than other

Japanese (see Suzuki M, et al. Japanese J Bone Res 1995;63:166-72 [in

Japanese]). Protective factors that may play a role here include high

calcium intake by Okinawans in both food and their natural drinking

water, high vitamin D levels from exposure to sunlight, increased

physical activity, especially at older ages, and high intake of

dietary flavonoids (estrogenic compounds from plant foods). "

http://okinawaprogram.com/study.html

Jeff, you know sarcopenia?

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve & db=pubmed & dopt=Abstra\

ct & list_uids=14552938

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve & db=pubmed & dopt=Abstra\

ct & list_uids=11830351

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve & db=pubmed & dopt=Abstra\

ct & list_uids=15619681

You may do many chins now at young age. You may do many squats now at

young age. How many squats will you do at 110 years age even with CRON

if you do not attempt to keep existing strength?? CRON may slow

sarcopenis but will not preclude! Person need to maintain

neuromuscular efficiency and contractile proteins into aging time

scale. The more you live the more significant bone and muscle become!

Remember! 5-10 minutes weighttraing every 5 days! Not too much?

Just my thots!

many thanks!

> >>>Musclebuilding or seeing how low one can go weightwise is not the

> goal. Calories and the kind of calories eaten are what's important

> here.

>

> Agreed.

>

> To me, the issue with CR-ON is the " CR " and the " ON " and doing them

> together.

>

> I agree that activity/exercise is important to a limited extent, (as

> Walford has also pointed out) and have thoroughly explained my thoughts

> on it here, (even recently) though I do not believe it is the most

> important criteria. I have more than enough strength for most any

> activity I can think of, and can still do more chin ups than most people

> I know and still walk around the room on my hands. I don't think

> " absolute " strength is as important as " relevant " strength. And, if my

> memory serves me right, the BodyBuilders and Olympic Weightlifters who

> are considered the strongest based on relevant strength, are not the

> ones who are the biggest or have the most muscle, but some of the

> smaller/lighter competitors.

>

> I think Rodney has asked this, or maybe it was JR, but can anyone post

> any evidence of the value of bodybuilding and increased muscle mass to

> longevity? And if so, which I doubt, where is the trade off between the

> amount of energy expenditure needed to build and maintain the extra

> muscle mass vs benefit from the reduction in calories? In the longevity

> studies and research, and in the studies and data on centarians, where

> is the data on strength and muscle mass? Will the Okinawins do better

> if they each add 5 lbs of muscle?

>

> From what I understand, CR Is not about creating a calorie deficit, per

> see, as one can do this at almost any caloric output, but more about

> creating a calore deficit, in light of the amount of typical

> activity/exercise one needs to survive and have a decent QOL. So, is

> this about laying in bed all day with as little movement as possible and

> hiring someone to feed us at the minimal amount needed to maintain that

> level of movement and call that CR-ON? Of is it about spending lots of

> time and effort and energy exercising to be a top speciman in physical

> fitness and sport and strength and than create a defecit from that

> energy output level and call that CR-ON?

>

> What if we were unable to measure fitness levels, caloric values,

> caloric intake, caloric output, body weight, body fat etc etc, how would

> you decide when you were on CR-ON or following the healthiest lifestyle?

>

>

> > Jeff, if you add 5-6 lbs of MUSCLE when you low body weight of 104

> > (keep 5% bodyfat!), you think you do better CRON and feel less weak at

>

> > ~110lbs with more 5-6 lb more muscle than now at 122-126 and with more

>

> > % fat?

>

> Maybe the issue isnt BF or muscle mass at that level. Maybe the issue

> is starvation and malnutrition. Maybe the issue is inadequate caloric

> intake to achieve the ON part or CR-ON.

>

> Also, dO you assume that you can control the amount of BF and Muscle

> mass that someone puts on and loses as their weight goes up and down?

> I know it has been discussed here and some formulas have been presented,

> but I havent seen anyone whose experience follows them like that.

>

> > 5lb muscle is good gain. Make big difference in strength!

>

> I am sure if everyone could go out to the gym and somehow just add 5 lbs

> of muscle, without adding any fat, they would be somewhat " stronger " . I

> am sure if I added 5 lbs of muscle right now, I would be " stronger " .

> However, I am not sure that they would be healthier, or live longer or

> improve their QOL? How much effort would it take to put on that 5 lb

> and to maintain it? I have seen no evidence of a relationship between

> " increased " strength or muscle mass (outside of aneroxia) and longevity.

> Adding 5 lbs of muscle would also raise my BMI about 1 point. Now, I

> do know of increased health risks from increased BMIs, even as little as

> 1 or 2 points, even within the " healthy " range. So, where is the logic

> and science/data behind wanting to increase my BMI 1 point? I would

> rather look to drop it another point or two, and as there is a minimum

> of BF that the human body needs to function in health, how do you

> achieve it elsewise?

>

> > Which model better for CRON: you be 110lbs with more muscle or you be

> > ~125 with more fat?

>

> The problem is with the question as it has too many limitations and

> missing information, so I will choose not to pick between the two.

>

> Hwoever, removing the limitations and missing information, the best

> answer we have in science now is to achieve a BMI of around 18.5-22

> (maybe lower if you dare) with a BF of around 5-10% and consuming

> the least amount of calories to achieve that, while also eating the

> foods that give you the most amount of nutrients for those calories.

> That I can support with science.

>

> To me, that is CR-ON, which I why I am here.

>

> Thanks

> Jeff

[Guest guest]

>>The more you live the more significant bone and muscle become! Remember! 5-10

minutes weighttraing every 5 days! Not too much?

I agree.

But, do you think that level of activity would be enough to put on 5 lbs of

muscle on someone, which was your earlier point?

Either way, I happen to agree about the importance of " resistance " training,

which doesnt automatically equate to " weight " training.

I think you missed my earlier posts on the topic or maybe somehow just think I

lay around in bed all day. But, if you have read them, or asked about my

activity level, you would see that I said (and think) we should all do at least

the " equivalent " of 20-30 minutes of resistance exercise at least 3x a week,

which I do. I dont think the elder Okinawans frequent gyms or do weight training

in their homes, or do super slow training, or 3 sets of 8-15 reps, of 8-10

exercises but instead just have " increased physical activity " which offers them

both endurance and resistance activity.

BTW, The pull ups and hand walking is just for fun and to impress the chicks.

Thanks

jeff

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