Cretan and Okinawans (was Re: Olive Oil is not exactly MUFA)

[Guest guest]

>>When you substitute almonds for carbohydrates in an energy restricted diet, CV

parameters improve (40% CfF)

When we are looking to improve upon " optimal " or find " optimal " we shouldnt

continue to use a diet that is known to be unhealthy as a standard or a

comparison and make conclusions based on the results compared to the unhealthy

diet. We should take what we know to be best and work with it.

In other words....

When nuts/seeds replace refined processed carbs, on an equal calorie basis, with

caloric level maintained, yes, CV risk factors improve.

But, I havent seen that replacing unrefined, unprocessed carbs with nuts seeds

on an equal calorie basis with both diets being served ad libitum, improve risk

factors.

From a recent article we wrote on the subject...

" And new research from Oregon Health & Science University found that a low-fat,

high-fiber diet caused significant weight loss in type 2 diabetics, whereas a

diet high in monounsaturated fats did not.

For both diets, the subjects were encouraged to eat ad libitum, that is, as much

or as little as they wanted. This " real world " approach, the scientists

suspected, would create more accurate results than previous studies, which had

forced subjects to eat as many calories on low-fat diets as they had on high-fat

diets. Unlike these earlier studies, the low-fat, ad libitum diet in the Oregon

study did not raise triglyceride levels or worsen glycemic control. In fact, it

improved both. The authors concluded that " ad libitum low-fat, high-fiber diets

may be very useful in the dietary management of type 2 diabetes. " (10)

And recently, the U.S. Agriculture Research Service found that eating more

whole-grain foods eased the Metabolic Syndrome. The scientists, from Tufts

University in Boston, analyzed food consumption data and medical tests from

2,834 men and women and concluded that eating three or more servings of

whole-grain foods like fiber-rich cereals and brown rice each day improved

insulin sensitivity and lowered the risk of Metabolic Syndrome. Refined grains

did not protect against the syndrome.(11)

(10) American Journal of Clinical Nutrition, 2004; 80: 668.

(11) Diabetes Care, 2004; 27: 538.

Regards

Jeff

[Guest guest]

Williiam: Please do give the references you allude to below.

Everyone: If you're going to post such statements, please include the

references where you've gotten them (unless it's been discussed before and

you can be sure we're all in agreement e.g.: " CRON improves health " ......

on 2/16/2005 7:09 AM, at wmbragg@... wrote:

>

>

>

>>

>> Then are you saying you think the people in Crete who eat the most

>> olive oil only eat the 'nasty refined' olive oils?

>>

>

> No, but if you refer to the study about CVD and Cretan/Mediterranean

> diet, I guess no Extra Virgin propierty is going to protect against

> 100 grams of oil a day. Perhaps they would be doing better by eating

> the olives instead.

>

>> My GUESS is that the beneficial CVD aspects of the

>> Mediterranean Diet

>> (which seem to be nowhere near as beneficial as the japanese diet)

>> are a consequence of the fish and wine they consume, and a lower

>> caloric intake, rather than the oil.

>

> I see one difference here: Okinawans eat less overall than Western

> people, so they have better choices of reaching old ages... On the

> other hand, Cretan people today die yunger than Okinawan. 60's

> Cretan/Mediterranean diet was different from today's one. They ate 30

> grams of meat a day, 18 grams of fish, 500 grams of fruit, 90 grams

> of olive oil, 200 grams of vegetables, 30 grams of pulses, 200 grams

> of goat's dairy and 400 grams of whole bread. They did a lot of hard

> work only in order to subsist, and the most important of all: they

> have really little probability of die from CVD and/or cancer, or some

> other metabolic diseases, so they didn't earlier from those causes.

> But they hadn't an extra life span for that, so they only had a

> longer median lifespan as a group, with no longer maximal lifespan.

> They lived healthier, that's all.

>

> I guess you are right when suppose wine and fish have something to do

> here. I could give you the references for some (very different)

> papers where you coul extract more or less this actual and updated

> information:

>

> When in a mediterranean diet you substitute walnuts/almonds for MUFA,

> CV parameters improve (30% CfF). (CfF=Calories from Fat)

>

> When you substitute almonds for carbohydrates in an energy restricted

> diet, CV parameters improve (40% CfF)

>

> Fish, colored vegetables protects against colon/rectal cancer in

> Japanese people, while fat is detrimental. Fibre do not interfere.

>

> Red meat seems to increase probabilities of having intestinal cancers.

>

> w-3 play a role in several different ways in a lot of different

> reactions, carrying to an overall improvement in all body processes.

>

> But if we are going to bet.... maybe a cocoction of all of it always

> in a CR environment should be the best bet...

>

> Willie

>

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Hi Willie:

Well it is unclear to me what I should conclude about this. The

study I posted did suggest that the more MUFA (mostly from olive oil)

consumed in Crete the higher the incidence of CVD. Which was the

point I found interesting, if really true.

You say the diet in Crete is not what it used to be. But the people

who have been dying in Crete lately (such as those in the study I

referenced) spent most of their lives before 1960, so I am not sure

you can blame those deaths on the more recent dietary habits of the

new generation.

Also you say that CVD risk is improved by the substitution of

walnuts/almonds for MUFA or carbohydrates. But walnuts are very

different in fat content from almonds. Walnuts are about 14% MUFA

(72% PUFA, much of it alpha-linolenic); almonds, in contrast, are

about 64% MUFA. So if the effects of each are about the same, then

should we figure that the benefit has nothing to do with the fat

content?

I would be really interested to see the studies you mention that show

the benefits from walnuts/almonds, because if their effects truly are

about the same then it seems to be saying something very remarkable

about the underlying reason for the benefit.

Rodney.

>

> >

> > Then are you saying you think the people in Crete who eat the

most

> > olive oil only eat the 'nasty refined' olive oils?

> >

>

> No, but if you refer to the study about CVD and

Cretan/Mediterranean

> diet, I guess no Extra Virgin propierty is going to protect against

> 100 grams of oil a day. Perhaps they would be doing better by

eating

> the olives instead.

>

> > My GUESS is that the beneficial CVD aspects of the

> > Mediterranean Diet

> > (which seem to be nowhere near as beneficial as the japanese

diet)

> > are a consequence of the fish and wine they consume, and a lower

> > caloric intake, rather than the oil.

>

> I see one difference here: Okinawans eat less overall than Western

> people, so they have better choices of reaching old ages... On the

> other hand, Cretan people today die yunger than Okinawan. 60's

> Cretan/Mediterranean diet was different from today's one. They ate

30

> grams of meat a day, 18 grams of fish, 500 grams of fruit, 90 grams

> of olive oil, 200 grams of vegetables, 30 grams of pulses, 200

grams

> of goat's dairy and 400 grams of whole bread. They did a lot of

hard

> work only in order to subsist, and the most important of all: they

> have really little probability of die from CVD and/or cancer, or

some

> other metabolic diseases, so they didn't earlier from those causes.

> But they hadn't an extra life span for that, so they only had a

> longer median lifespan as a group, with no longer maximal lifespan.

> They lived healthier, that's all.

>

> I guess you are right when suppose wine and fish have something to

do

> here. I could give you the references for some (very different)

> papers where you coul extract more or less this actual and updated

> information:

>

> When in a mediterranean diet you substitute walnuts/almonds for

MUFA,

> CV parameters improve (30% CfF). (CfF=Calories from Fat)

>

> When you substitute almonds for carbohydrates in an energy

restricted

> diet, CV parameters improve (40% CfF)

>

> Fish, colored vegetables protects against colon/rectal cancer in

> Japanese people, while fat is detrimental. Fibre do not interfere.

>

> Red meat seems to increase probabilities of having intestinal

cancers.

>

> w-3 play a role in several different ways in a lot of different

> reactions, carrying to an overall improvement in all body processes.

>

> But if we are going to bet.... maybe a cocoction of all of it

always

> in a CR environment should be the best bet...

>

> Willie