Re: New data on salt and BP

[Guest guest]

Just to clarify. All mammals need sodium and from my own experience, I know my intake is >800 mgs and < 1500 mgs. My electrolytes get "out of whack" with insufficient intake also. OTOH, I'm aware of an upper limits as well. Red-lines for RDAs are basically not defined for most vitamins and minerals, amino acids, fatty acids.

There are obviously many variables in sodium intake, from the Yanomama's near zero to some higher level determined by how much risk you'd want for stroke/longevity. And I think that applies to everyone, not just hypertensives. HTN is defined as a "treatable" level by protocol. Exercise levels run much higher in some 35% of people while the remaining don't seem to have that characteristic.

Of those 35%, 90% will acquire a treatable level of blood pressure that will never go away.

While I may require 160/100 at 234#, I require 135/85 at 165# perhaps. OR I can medicate to reduce my "power output" at a higher weight. OR I can lose weight and reduce my power output. So while I see I must control it to avoid stroke and therefore live longer, I still need some sodium to keep my chosen operating point at 135/85.

That's the level where I can do normal work and feel right - no weakness or dizziness. But the HTN characteristic is still there - worsens with age.

The interesting info in this article is the ratio of urinary sodium to creatinine:

Mean systolic and diastolic blood pressure increased as the ratio of urinary sodium to creatinine increased (as estimated from a casual urine sample), with differences of 7.2 mm Hg for systolic blood pressure and 3.0 mm Hg for diastolic blood pressure (P < 0.0001) between the top and bottom quintiles.

Then it slides into rec'g lower sodium intake, but it seems to me there is a kidney thing here that is not well understood, and that may be the differences between people who tend to have HTN (a defined level) versus those that do not. It may also be the differences in people in "acquiring" kidney failure.

We freely allow the medicals to define the safe level of blood pressure. We know that the closer we stay down to 120/80, the less risk and the longer we live.

Ergo, from the POV of life extension, urinary sodium is always going to be of interest to everyone, as well as the other factors like creatinine, serum cholesterol, etc. I see it as a technical, not political issue, which just happens to be of major interest to me, since every adult male in my community is getting HTN.

Guys I'm working with right now (on our dam), even young guys (20's), are developing "guts", doing manual labor. I pick up 85# bags of concrete mix and hand them to another guy that can't keep up with me and they weigh 50 - 70 # more. I'm the oldest guy. Why doesn't manual labor equate to "exercise"?

From my experience, manual labor tends to add weight and raise BP.

Regards.

----- Original Message -----

From: Francesca Skelton

Sent: Tuesday, March 22, 2005 10:32 AM

Subject: Re: [ ] Fwd: Re: [bloodpressureline New data onsalt and BP

: I didn't see anything in JW's post of a salt study that was aimed ator addressed to you personally.I understand JW's frustration because I personally am finding it harder andharder to shop without finding salt in virtually everything. I like to useplain canned crushed tomatoes to make my tomato based sauces and am latelyfinding that there's all of a sudden, salt added (I guess I'll have toswitch to tomato paste until they start adding salt to that too). As notedrecently I've had to stop buying supermarket poultry because they're nowinjecting it with a saline solution. So even though I buy very fewprocessed foods, the things I used to be able to buy without concern seem tonow be "salted". Also I eat canned sardines and salmon for their manybenefits and convenience and they of course have always been and probablywill forever be salted (I remember you said that WalMart sells unsaltedcanned fish but I don't live near a Wal Mart).I can't find ANY hummous without salt added and so if I want unsaltedhummous I guess I'll have to make my own. For those of us who perhaps don'thave the time/inclination to make everything from scratch, it can befrustrating. IMHO a bad practise (one of many) of the food industry.Salt can always be added for those who want more of it; but can only withdifficulty, be removed from food.on 3/22/2005 10:55 AM, at crjohnr@... wrote:> > Just FYI.> > > Am J Clin Nutr. 2004 Nov;80(5):1397-403. Related Articles, Links> > > Blood pressure and urinary sodium in men and women: the Norfolk> Cohort of the> European Prospective Investigation into Cancer (EPIC-Norfolk).> > Khaw KT, Bingham S, Welch A, Luben R, O'Brien E, Wareham N, Day N.> > Department of Public Health and Primary Care, Institute of Public> Health,> University of Cambridge School of Clinical Medicine, Cambridge,> United Kingdom.> kk101@m...> > BACKGROUND: Abundant evidence indicates that a high sodium intake is> causally> related to high blood pressure, but debate over recommendations to> reduce> dietary sodium in the general population continues. A key issue is> whether> differences in usual sodium intake within the range feasible in free-> living> populations have clinical or public health relevance. OBJECTIVE: We> examined the> relation between blood pressure and urinary sodium as a marker of> dietary intake.> DESIGN: This was a study of 23104 community-living adults aged 45-79> y.> RESULTS: Mean systolic and diastolic blood pressure increased as the> ratio of urinary> sodium to creatinine increased (as estimated from a casual urine> sample),> with differences of 7.2 mm Hg for systolic blood pressure and 3.0 mm> Hg for> diastolic blood pressure (P < 0.0001) between the top and bottom> quintiles. This> trend was independent of age, body mass index, urinary> potassium:creatinine, and> smoking and was consistent by sex and history of hypertension. The> prevalence> of those with systolic blood pressure >/= 160 mm Hg halved from 12%> in the> top quintile to 6% in the bottom quintile; the odds ratio for having> systolic> blood pressure >/= 160 mm Hg was 2.48 (95% CI: 1.90, 3.22) for men> and 2.67 (95%> CI: 2.08, 3.43) for women in the top compared with the bottom> quintile of> urinary sodium. Estimated mean sodium intakes in the lowest and> highest quintiles> were approximately 80 and 220 mmol/d, respectively. CONCLUSIONS:> Within the> usual range found in a free-living population, differences in urinary> sodium,> an indicator of dietary sodium intake, are associated with blood> pressure> differences of clinical and public health relevance. Our findings> reinforce> recommendations to lower average sodium intakes in the general> population.>

[Guest guest]

We are finding increased emphasis on low sodium foods, and perhaps Mfgrs will do more. I already get mini-wheats,eg, with out sodium.

We often, after buying meats, find the Na is too high and I soak them overnight (or give them to the neighbors cat). Canned fish is notorious for levels much higher than stated on the can.

I think sometimes even fresh produce is soaked in something to keep it fresh.

The only way to know for sure what your diet contains is to do a 24hr urine collection. You think you're eating low sodium and get 3.5 grams, then you will believe there's a lot of Na in foods.

Regards.

----- Original Message -----

From: cologr8tguy

Sent: Wednesday, March 23, 2005 10:37 AM

Subject: [ ] Fwd: Re: [bloodpressureline New data on salt and BP

Hi all-Just to let you know. I had been buying Tyson frozen chicken tendersin a 3lb bag because they were convienent and a couple of them cookedin my steamer in the same amount of time as my veggies. They didhowever have the injected salt+stuff broth. As an alternative Costco has started selling boneless, skinlesschicken breasts individualy wrapped in heavy plastic bags. You canjust freeze the whole package and take out one breast at a time. Thegood thing about this is the product has no added sodium or stuff. Thedownside is a breast is larger than a tender so I can't just throw itin with the veggies and have it come out right.At Whole Foods and Wild Oats I've found a couple of brands of crushedtomatoes which have very low sodium, Bionature (from Italy I think)and Westbrea.Jerry> : I didn't see anything in JW's post of a salt study that wasaimed at> or addressed to you personally.> > I understand JW's frustration because I personally am finding itharder and> harder to shop without finding salt in virtually everything. I liketo use> plain canned crushed tomatoes to make my tomato based sauces and amlately> finding that there's all of a sudden, salt added (I guess I'll have to> switch to tomato paste until they start adding salt to that too). As noted> recently I've had to stop buying supermarket poultry because they're now> injecting it with a saline solution. So even though I buy very few> processed foods, the things I used to be able to buy without concernseem to> now be "salted". Also I eat canned sardines and salmon for their many> benefits and convenience and they of course have always been andprobably> will forever be salted (I remember you said that WalMart sells unsalted> canned fish but I don't live near a Wal Mart).> > I can't find ANY hummous without salt added and so if I want unsalted> hummous I guess I'll have to make my own. For those of us whoperhaps don't> have the time/inclination to make everything from scratch, it can be> frustrating. IMHO a bad practise (one of many) of the food industry.> > Salt can always be added for those who want more of it; but canonly with> difficulty, be removed from food.>

[Guest guest]

>

> Guys I'm working with right now (on our dam), even young guys (20's), are

developing

" guts " , doing manual labor. I pick up 85# bags of concrete mix and hand them to

another

guy that can't keep up with me and they weigh 50 - 70 # more. I'm the oldest

guy. Why

doesn't manual labor equate to " exercise " ?

> From my experience, manual labor tends to add weight and raise BP.

I hope I can posit, without offending anyone, that this tendency you note of

manual laborers to not benefit from their " exercise, " but rather to have " guts, "

could be due to a poor understanding and/or consideration of nutrition. My

experience is they often eat fast food meals on the way to work for breakfast

and similarly for a quick lunch on site.

-

[Guest guest]

Hi JW:

Two thoughts occur to me in reference to you comments below. When

you say " developing guts " I take you to mean that they are putting on

weight around the abdomen. If they are putting on weight it suggests

to me that there is only one reason for it. Their caloric intake

exceeds their caloric expenditure. They may be getting a lot of

exercise but they are more than making up for it in caloric intake.

Their putting on weight would also very likely explain the appearance

of hypertension.

Your use of the term " gut " is interesting. There is one way one can

put on a lot of weight without eating a lot of (what passes these

days for) food. Beer contains a lot of calories. One (US) gallon of

beer contains about 1550 of them. I do not know how much, if any,

beer your pals drink - although I can easily imagine they might

retire to the local hostelry for a couple of hours refreshment after

a hard day's work. In any event, each 100 extra calories consumed

per day results in ten pounds of weight gain each year. Might beer

be a factor contributing to their expanding waist measurements?

There is the popular expression 'beer gut', or 'beer belly'. I doubt

there is anything special about it being beer, but rather just the

calories it contains.

Second point, if you are still lifting 85 pound bags of anything on a

regular basis I suggest you consider slowing down. My understanding

is that excessive loads on joints will eventually lead to arthritis,

something you would probably be better off without.

Rodney.

--- In , " jwwright " <jwwright@e...>

wrote:

> ................... which just happens to be of major interest to

> me, since every adult male in my community is getting HTN. Guys I'm

> working with right now (on our dam), even young guys (20's), are

> developing " guts " , doing manual labor. I pick up 85# bags of

> concrete mix and hand them to another guy that can't keep up with

> me and they weigh 50 - 70 # more. I'm the oldest guy. Why doesn't

> manual labor equate to " exercise " ? From my experience, manual

> labor tends to add weight and raise BP.

>

> Regards.