Re: Proper CRON Practice

[Guest guest]

MVL: welcome to the group.

Theory is nice. But real life is different.

Those of us who are veterans generally agree that it is difficult if not

impossible to determine " set point " . One of these reasons is exactly what

you say below: " it moves around " . One of the elusive ways to determine it

is to watch the point where you " plateau " or find it harder to lose weight.

That is probably your set point.

We have an entire file on CR and exercise and what is optimal. PLEASE READ

THE FILES. We've put a lot of work into them. We answer all the questions

that are asked again and again by newbies.

The chart you cite at calorierestriction.org, which gives maximum benefits

at 65% sounds extremely dangerous. We here at this website advise

MODERATION, not STARVATION. BTW we are not affiliated with them and do not

recommend extreme CRON. Nobody knows what the optimal numbers are for

humans. Not yet anyway. Again: READ THE FILES. We have one file titled:

MODERATION VS EXTREMISM. This file makes an excellent case for moderation,

for optimal health and longevity.

We do not push veganism and neither did Walford. Fish, for example has

extremely postive benefits to health. Veganism can lead to deficiencies if

you're not very careful. We also generally advise getting most of your

vitamins/minerals from food, not supplements, in other words the natural

way, since that seems to be the best way to get them plus there seem to be

things in food we haven't yet discovered or know about that confer benefits.

I personally don't put much stock about : " making aging and death a thing of

the past. " Let's concentrate on what we know.

on 4/19/2005 4:02 AM, Socrat1234 at Socrat1234@... wrote:

>

> Hello all,

>

> I'm just beginning CRON, and have recently joined this group. I believe I

> understand how CRON is properly practiced, but there are details that still

> are unclear.

>

> I wish to undertake 30% CR. So, I need to be able to calculate how many

> calories daily I should be consuming on 30% CR, after a gradual weight loss

> period. Now, my understanding of how to go about doing this is the

> following, so please correct me if I'm wrong:

>

> 1) Identify " set point " body weight.

> 2) Calculate (or, ideally, test) basal metabolic rate (also known as basal

> energy expenditure, BEE, or BMR) for maintenance of this " set point " body

> weight.

> 3) Multiply the " set point " BMR calorie amount by some " activity level "

> coefficient. 1.2 seems to be the agreed coefficient for a completely

> sedentary person, with higher coefficient for a higher level of activity.

> 4) Subtract the desired CR% (in this case, 30%) from the final calorie total

> (BMR x activity_coefficient). So, for example, if the calorie total in (3)

> was 2000 Kcal, 30% CR would lead to 2000 Kcal - (2000 Kcal x 0.3), or 1400

> Kcal.

>

> This leads me to several questions:

>

> How does one go about objectively determining one's " set point " ? I know the

> definition, that it's the weight that one gravitates towards, or something

> like that. The thing is, I really don't think I can use my past weight as

> an example, as it has often fluctuated, rarely staying in one place for very

> long. I never used to keep track of my weight, so I can't even really

> determine a rough average. IS there a way to objectively determine or

> measure one's " set point " ? I do not believe I am significantly different

> from the " average " person of my height (76.5 " ) in terms of weight or

> metabolism... is there any such thing as an " average set point " calculation

> or chart for height / body frame / gender / etc.? What is the relation

> between " set point " and the term " ideal body weight " (given by various

> equations, one example being the " Hamwi " equation)... and how often, if

> ever, are these equivalent? The question of objectively determing " set

> point " is important to me. How did they calculate this for rodents of

> varying strains? In fact, on a broader note, how do the CR%'s of " 30% " or

> " 40% " get calculated exactly for these rodent populations?

>

> Regarding activity level and CR, is it accurate for me to conclude that one

> should restrict activity to a minimum necessary to ensure quality of life,

> cardiovascular health, and retention of adequate muscle mass, if one intends

> to gain the maximum life extension benefits of CRON? As stated by Dr.

> Walford, exercise has been shown to improve health and increase average life

> span with a more than moderate level of probability, but only CRON has been

> shown to improve maximum life span with a high level of probability (at

> least in all species tested to date). This leads me to conclude that the

> lower the activity level (to a certain reasonable minimum) the better, as

> lower activity levels would lead to lower caloric requirements, and hence to

> greater CR. What is the typical activity level of the rodents used in CR

> studies?

>

> Is there any rough formula, derived from the numerous animal studies, that

> would provide an estimate of the percent increase in maximum life span for

> adult onset CRON, given the age when CRON is initiated, and the CR%? Or

> does this vary too much between species to be possible to estimate for

> humans?

>

> Is there a maximum CR% beyond which most organisms simply die? I had read

> that this was 50%, but I recently saw a chart on calorierestriction.org that

> showed maximum life span increases at as high as 65% CR. Is the healthy

> maximum CR% different for adult onset CR than for CR initiated not long

> after the time of birth?

>

> In addition to the above practical general questions, my personal situation

> is that I am vegan (for ethical reasons), and a diabetic. I consume, for

> health reasons, a diet which consists of no more than 25% calories from fat

> (and no less than my minimum requirements), no more than 16% calories from

> carbohydrates (the less the better), with the bulk of calories derived from

> protein. In addition, I follow an aggressive vitamin and mineral

> supplementation program, and consume daily low-calorie nutrient-dense shakes

> consisting of isolated soy or whey protein, a " greens " powder composed of

> the powdered extracts of various fruits, vegetables and other whole foods,

> and the addition of additional soluable fiber. I drink plenty of alkaline

> (9.5 pH) water daily, in addition to consuming whole foods and tea, to

> maintain healthy pH levels given the (most probably) increased acidity

> resulting from my primarily protein diet. I'm dedicated to following a CRON

> plan to increase my health, well-being, and maximum life span, and hopefully

> live to see technologies that can make aging and involuntary death things of

> the past. Are there any guidelines for CRON for diabetics (or, generally,

> individuals who must maintain extremely low carbohydrate diets), and,

> specifically, for diabetics wishing to maintain vegan diets?

>

> Thanks,

> MvL

>

[Guest guest]

MvL,

From your questions, it is evident that you have done a lot of

reading. As Francesca mentioned, there is no reliable way of

determine " set point " .

In animal experiments, scientists divide a set of genetically

homogeneous animals into an experimental group and a control group.

They measure how much a control group eats, and then use that amount

as the basis for determining how much to feed the experimental CR

group, e.g., 30% less, etc. There is NO determination of set point.

For humans, there is no hope of finding genetically homogeneous

controls, but by using the BMI formula and the -Benedict

equations, it is possible determine the caloric requirements of a

person with your physical characteristics.

Your height is 76.5 " (6 ft 4.5 in). For this height, your " control

twin " with a Body Mass Index (BMI) of 22 would weigh 183 lb. The

number 22 is chosen because it is the mid-point of the normal BMI

range. You can assume that this is your " set point weight " and use it

in the H-B equations to calculate your caloric requirements based on

your level of activity.

So, if you are a 35-year old male, the BEE of your control twin is

1945 kcal/day. The twin's caloric requirements are 2334, 2675, and

3015 for sedentary, light, or moderate activity, respectively. If YOU

are lightly active, you can use 2675 kcal/day as a reference value for

your CR calculations. The number of calories for 30% CR is 1873

kcal/day for you. If you are moderately active, 30% CR is 2110

kcal/day for you. You should repeat the BEE calculation with your

actual age.

Please heed Francesca's call for moderation. Start at 10% CR while

you learn how to select nutritious foods and how to manage hunger.

After a year or two you can decide whether a more aggressive CR

program is appropriate. You have your whole life to experiment.

There is no need to rush.

Tony

=====

The Basal Energy Expenditure (BEE) calculated by the -Benedict

equations is explained here:

http://www-users.med.cornell.edu/~spon/picu/calc/beecalc.htm

To determine your total daily calorie needs, multiply your BEE by the

appropriate activity factor, as follows:

1. If you are sedentary (little or no exercise) :

Calorie-Calculation = BEE x 1.2

2. If you are lightly active (light exercise/sports 1-3 days/week)

: Calorie-Calculation = BEE x 1.375

3. If you are moderatetely active (moderate exercise/sports 3-5

days/week) : Calorie-Calculation = BEE x 1.55

4. If you are very active (hard exercise/sports 6-7 days a week) :

Calorie-Calculation = BEE x 1.725

5. If you are extra active (very hard exercise/sports & physical

job or 2x training) : Calorie-Calculation = BEE x 1.9

[Guest guest]

Hi MvL:

Lots of good advice already. I would just add that, whatever you

decide to do, make sure of three things:

1. Make certain you are getting at least the RDAs of all the

micronutrients, preferably from foods.

2. Lose weight slowly. Not more than half a pound per week.

3. Stay away from hemlock ;; ^ )))

Rodney.

--- In , " Socrat1234 " <Socrat1234@a...>

wrote:

>

> Hello all,

>

> I'm just beginning CRON, and have recently joined this group. I

believe I

> understand how CRON is properly practiced, but there are details

that still

> are unclear.

>

> I wish to undertake 30% CR. So, I need to be able to calculate how

many

> calories daily I should be consuming on 30% CR, after a gradual

weight loss

> period. Now, my understanding of how to go about doing this is the

> following, so please correct me if I'm wrong:

>

> 1) Identify " set point " body weight.

> 2) Calculate (or, ideally, test) basal metabolic rate (also known

as basal

> energy expenditure, BEE, or BMR) for maintenance of this " set

point " body

> weight.

> 3) Multiply the " set point " BMR calorie amount by some " activity

level "

> coefficient. 1.2 seems to be the agreed coefficient for a

completely

> sedentary person, with higher coefficient for a higher level of

activity.

> 4) Subtract the desired CR% (in this case, 30%) from the final

calorie total

> (BMR x activity_coefficient). So, for example, if the calorie

total in (3)

> was 2000 Kcal, 30% CR would lead to 2000 Kcal - (2000 Kcal x 0.3),

or 1400

> Kcal.

>

> This leads me to several questions:

>

> How does one go about objectively determining one's " set point " ? I

know the

> definition, that it's the weight that one gravitates towards, or

something

> like that. The thing is, I really don't think I can use my past

weight as

> an example, as it has often fluctuated, rarely staying in one place

for very

> long. I never used to keep track of my weight, so I can't even

really

> determine a rough average. IS there a way to objectively determine

or

> measure one's " set point " ? I do not believe I am significantly

different

> from the " average " person of my height (76.5 " ) in terms of weight or

> metabolism... is there any such thing as an " average set point "

calculation

> or chart for height / body frame / gender / etc.? What is the

relation

> between " set point " and the term " ideal body weight " (given by

various

> equations, one example being the " Hamwi " equation)... and how

often, if

> ever, are these equivalent? The question of objectively

determing " set

> point " is important to me. How did they calculate this for rodents

of

> varying strains? In fact, on a broader note, how do the CR%'s

of " 30% " or

> " 40% " get calculated exactly for these rodent populations?

>

> Regarding activity level and CR, is it accurate for me to conclude

that one

> should restrict activity to a minimum necessary to ensure quality

of life,

> cardiovascular health, and retention of adequate muscle mass, if

one intends

> to gain the maximum life extension benefits of CRON? As stated by

Dr.

> Walford, exercise has been shown to improve health and increase

average life

> span with a more than moderate level of probability, but only CRON

has been

> shown to improve maximum life span with a high level of probability

(at

> least in all species tested to date). This leads me to conclude

that the

> lower the activity level (to a certain reasonable minimum) the

better, as

> lower activity levels would lead to lower caloric requirements, and

hence to

> greater CR. What is the typical activity level of the rodents used

in CR

> studies?

>

> Is there any rough formula, derived from the numerous animal

studies, that

> would provide an estimate of the percent increase in maximum life

span for

> adult onset CRON, given the age when CRON is initiated, and the

CR%? Or

> does this vary too much between species to be possible to estimate

for

> humans?

>

> Is there a maximum CR% beyond which most organisms simply die? I

had read

> that this was 50%, but I recently saw a chart on

calorierestriction.org that

> showed maximum life span increases at as high as 65% CR. Is the

healthy

> maximum CR% different for adult onset CR than for CR initiated not

long

> after the time of birth?

>

> In addition to the above practical general questions, my personal

situation

> is that I am vegan (for ethical reasons), and a diabetic. I

consume, for

> health reasons, a diet which consists of no more than 25% calories

from fat

> (and no less than my minimum requirements), no more than 16%

calories from

> carbohydrates (the less the better), with the bulk of calories

derived from

> protein. In addition, I follow an aggressive vitamin and mineral

> supplementation program, and consume daily low-calorie nutrient-

dense shakes

> consisting of isolated soy or whey protein, a " greens " powder

composed of

> the powdered extracts of various fruits, vegetables and other whole

foods,

> and the addition of additional soluable fiber. I drink plenty of

alkaline

> (9.5 pH) water daily, in addition to consuming whole foods and tea,

to

> maintain healthy pH levels given the (most probably) increased

acidity

> resulting from my primarily protein diet. I'm dedicated to

following a CRON

> plan to increase my health, well-being, and maximum life span, and

hopefully

> live to see technologies that can make aging and involuntary death

things of

> the past. Are there any guidelines for CRON for diabetics (or,

generally,

> individuals who must maintain extremely low carbohydrate diets),

and,

> specifically, for diabetics wishing to maintain vegan diets?

>

> Thanks,

> MvL

[Guest guest]

" I am vegan (for ethical reasons), ... consume daily low-calorie

nutrient-dense shakes

consisting of isolated soy or whey protein "

> how can you be a vegan if you eat whey protein ?

" Are there any guidelines for CRON for diabetics (or, generally,

individuals who must maintain extremely low carbohydrate diets), and,

specifically, for diabetics wishing to maintain vegan diets? "

>sounds like you just lifted your whole diet from Ray

Kurzweils " fantastic voyage " with your 59% calories from protein and

aggressive supplement regime. Well, Kurzweil has been on that diet

over a decade or so now and is doing well based on his blood results

(he is type two diabetic also). On the other hand Dr Bernstein

(http://www.diabetes-normalsugars.com) is alive and well after

following a 65% fat diet for the past 35 years, he has had type one

diabetes for 58 years (got it age 12, now he is 70) and he has no

diabetic complications. So both methods will probably be okay, but

kurzweils diet means a heavy reliance on protein shakes (especially

Soya) and the amount you will consume over your life time is going

to be tremendous, nobody knows what effect this will have upon you.

Though Soya is great for controlling blood sugars.

> As to the set point etc, at a guess if you go much lower than 2000

cals a day you will hit what I call the grey zone (irrespective of

weight) where your libido will vanish and you will probably find

life looks a great deal different and probably not as pleasant as it

once was.

....

[Guest guest]

Hi :

We are all indebted to you for your enlightening description of what

you call the " Grey Zone " , so that we are all forewarned and

forearmed.

However I can not agree with 2000 calories as being the " Grey Zone

Threshold " . I have from time to time dropped my intake to 1500

calories per day and have seen none (!) of the symptoms you

describe. But it is certainly a phenomenon we all need to be able to

recognize when/if it hits, and immediately realize the cause and the

effective treatment for it.

Perhaps the threshold varies from one individual to another.

Rodney.

>

>

> " I am vegan (for ethical reasons), ... consume daily low-calorie

> nutrient-dense shakes

> consisting of isolated soy or whey protein "

>

> > how can you be a vegan if you eat whey protein ?

>

> " Are there any guidelines for CRON for diabetics (or, generally,

> individuals who must maintain extremely low carbohydrate diets),

and,

> specifically, for diabetics wishing to maintain vegan diets? "

>

> >sounds like you just lifted your whole diet from Ray

> Kurzweils " fantastic voyage " with your 59% calories from protein

and

> aggressive supplement regime. Well, Kurzweil has been on that diet

> over a decade or so now and is doing well based on his blood

results

> (he is type two diabetic also). On the other hand Dr Bernstein

> (http://www.diabetes-normalsugars.com) is alive and well after

> following a 65% fat diet for the past 35 years, he has had type one

> diabetes for 58 years (got it age 12, now he is 70) and he has no

> diabetic complications. So both methods will probably be okay, but

> kurzweils diet means a heavy reliance on protein shakes (especially

> Soya) and the amount you will consume over your life time is going

> to be tremendous, nobody knows what effect this will have upon

you.

> Though Soya is great for controlling blood sugars.

>

> > As to the set point etc, at a guess if you go much lower than

2000

> cals a day you will hit what I call the grey zone (irrespective of

> weight) where your libido will vanish and you will probably find

> life looks a great deal different and probably not as pleasant as

it

> once was.

>

> ....

[Guest guest]

Hello Rodney, you wrote: " However I can not agree with 2000 calories

as being the " Grey ZoneThreshold " . I have from time to time dropped

my intake to 1500

calories per day and have seen none (!) of the symptoms you

describe. But it is certainly a phenomenon we all need to be able to

recognize when/if it hits, and immediately realize the cause and the

effective treatment for it.

Perhaps the threshold varies from one individual to another. "

> I was basing my assumption on his height, gender and then guessing

at a calorie intake. As he is 76.5 inches tall, that's why I would

guess at 2000 cals but I think this may only count if he is in his

thirties or early forties. What I have found as I have calorie

restricted over the last ten to twelve years is that even though my

life style (quite sedentary) is the same, I now need less calories

to maintain the same nine stone twelve I was back then. So even

though 1500 calories put me in the grey zone (I am 5 foot 11) I

don't think that will be the same when I am sixty as I will need

fewer calories to maintain the same weight and the greyzone

threshold will drop to perhaps 1300 calories by then. Also I am not

completely sure if greyzone will be the same at sixty anyhow as I

will have had a gradual decrease in libido (as I naturally have

between ages 21 and 34) so that decrease may mean the grey zone is

less pronounced as it is defiantly tied up with libido. So it is

the persons height that makes me think 2000 cals will be the point

where those side effect may begin (could be 1800 though), but I

suppose it also depends on what his libido is like now, if it is

already very low then low calories may not effect it at all I guess.

No libido will equal no greyzone, big libido will equal big grey

zone I think and this is where we are all different, as you say.

Bye for now, ....